On the contrary I'd argue that Ibrahimovic is the perfect man to bring the best out of midfielders who can plunder goals. He's a perfect fit for Ballack for instance. His presence and impeccable hold-up play would be lapped up by the onrushing Ballack. Same for Nedved really: him and Ballack are extraordinary from around the edge of the area in finding the back of the net. Veron too in fairness. For sure I could have brought in a wide forward, but the chances are that would have been an inferior player to what we've got. And against a back three it's important to threaten in the wide channel, rather than that threat becoming restricted to the very area the three centre-backs are sitting. And that is best achieved through genuine wide players in Nedved and Michel. We get most of the goal threat along with all the work rate and deeper contribution to ensure midfield control. Ultimately I'd rather create something that gets the best out of Nedved and Ballack. And this is what they can do:
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - SF Gio vs Joga/Balu
- Thread starter Skizzo
- Start date
That Nedved goal at 0:50! 
That is a fair point indeed but there are a fair few players in these draft who combine both wingsmanship and goalscoring nous from the wider areas, whilst being an upgrade on Michel for instance. With Nedved on one flank, I do think a goalscorer to balance it out on the other flank would have been ideal, and that it's asking too much out of Nedved to be one of the chief goalscoring threats against our solid defense here, esp with Ballack and Ibra's goalscoring threat being bogged down in the congested central areas, where you yourselves have claimed itself a tight battle. However, let's drop this as we are just going around in circles.
Tbf, we have the best in the business on the pitch in Forlan
, and even Seedorf had one heck of a shot and a better/equal goalscoring record than Nedved and Veron for that matter but it would be a stretch to label him as one of the chief goalscoring threats of the game, especially with the tight battle he's engaged in the middle of the pitch.Do think my attack will get more joy against your defense relatively, esp Forlan who always seemed to have good games against Puyol
. In addition to the two videos on post 20, here are some other games of Forlan against Barca and Puyol. Plenty of other vids available on youtube for those interested.Barca were one of his favourite goalscoring opponents - scoring 9 goals in 9 games during his la liga career against Barca when Puyol played, with Puyol frequently struggling to get the handle on the deadly and elusive Uruguayan.
04/05: 5 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 draw
06/07: 0 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
07/08: 1 goal in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
08/09: 2 goals in 1 game, 1 win
09/10: 1 goal in 1 game, 1 win
10/11: 0 goal in 1 game, 1 loss
Whilst I'm generally not a fan of these type of arguments, as they are fairly reductionist in nature, and often ignore the impact of various other factors (the general strength of the Barca defense for starters), this is a fairly comprehensive sample and it is also key to note that Puyol was the captain of Barca and the leading centre back at the rear for the Cules, who was frequently entrusted with dealing with the opposition's chief goalscoring threat.
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Sorry but Puyol has nothing to do with any of Forlan's in those videos. It's misleading to paint that as Forlan getting one over Puyol. They're all pretty much feck-ups by other players with Oleguer being the chief culprit.That is a fair point indeed but there are a fair few players in these draft who combine both wingsmanship and goalscoring nous from the wider areas, whilst being an upgrade on Michel for instance. With Nedved on one flank, I do think a goalscorer to balance it out on the other flank would have been ideal, and that it's asking too much out of Nedved to be one of the chief goalscoring threats against our solid defense here, esp with Ballack and Ibra's goalscoring threat being bogged down in the congested central areas, where you yourselves have claimed itself a tight battle. However, let's drop this as we are just going around in circles.
Tbf, we have the best in the business on the pitch in Forlan
Do think my attack will get more joy against your defense relatively, esp Forlan who always seemed to have good games against Puyol
Barca were one of his favourite goalscoring opponents - scoring 9 goals in 9 games during his la liga career against Barca when Puyol played, with Puyol frequently struggling to get the handle on the deadly and elusive Uruguayan.
04/05: 5 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 draw
06/07: 0 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
07/08: 1 goal in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
08/09: 2 goals in 1 game, 1 win
09/10: 1 goal in 1 game, 1 win
10/11: 0 goal in 1 game, 1 loss
Whilst I'm generally not a fan of these type of arguments, as they are fairly reductionist in nature, and often ignore the impact of various other factors (the general strength of the Barca defense for starters), this is a fairly comprehensive sample and it is also key to note that Puyol was the captain of Barca and the leading centre back at the rear for the Cules, who was frequently entrusted with dealing with the opposition's chief goalscoring threat.
Not really, unless you're under-rating Michel.
I'm not sure. With your more defensive set-up and slightly lesser midfield, your attack will be working off less service. And there are no Oleguers in this defence: both full-backs are defensively rock-solid and the centre-half partnership matches up very well to your centre-forward partnership. Both in quality and in head-to-head match-ups, we are well set here.
And it's clear that we have both the best striker on the park in Zlatan Ibrahimovic, and the best midfielder on the park in Pavel Nedved. And they're both in a set-up designed to get the best out of them. Nedved is up against a swashbuckling wing-back who, as history has proven time and time again, will be inclined to leave pockets of space behind him. And when he cuts inside, as he does he devastatingly in the video posted above, he will square up to Alonso who is badly suited to anyone with pace and dribbling running at him. That'll be a serious problem.
I don't want to make it a 2vs1 discussion against Gio, so I'll leave it at one post for now. It's just, the mysterious case of Bergomi having no impact whatsoever really annoys me, so I have to get back to the following comment from our last matchthread:
But I don't think anyone sees it that way, certainly not in the Redcafe draft community. If anything he's clearly underappreciated and the comments about him so far are mostly something like 'I haven't seen enough of him', 'he lacks intelligence to play this role' or 'he doesn't really stand out in this pool of defenders' I think it's even worse than I thought. There is barely a comment about the possible impact he would have in a game, even though he's clearly the standout defender on the pitch.
I'm with you that he's a little short of the true GOAT level, but he doesn't get anywhere near the credit on the Caf, that this should bring with it and it's really a bit sad. I think it was us, who had the discussion about Gentile, when I argued that I rate Bergomi higher in that right sideback role because he was a clean defender, whose game would translate seamlessly to the modern game. It's a position in this argument that I've always held, so I'm not making this up because he's now in our team. And his performances in the latter years of his career kinda prove that, especially in 1997/98 when Inter was the best team in the league but were robbed by some scandalous refereeing decisions. They had the best defensive record in the league, won the the UEFA Cup ( he sadly missed the final due to injury) and he was still clearly the defensive leader during the season and had no problem playing a more zonal marking system compared to the man-marking role before. It earned him a call up to the World Cup, where he came into the team after Nesta's injury in the group stages and again played as well as always. Bergomi's domestic trophy haul is definitely a bit underwhelming, but for large parts of his career the team simply didn't have the midfielders and attackers to match Scirea's Juve or Baresi's Milan team. The few times he had, they did compete (the league title win with Matthäus and the season I talked about above with Ronaldo along with 3 UEFA Cup wins kinda prove that).
I think he deserves to be rated at least a tier above the other Italian 'sidekicks' like Ferri, Costacurta. Not only was he individually a better defender, but he also was the leader of an excellent defense for almost 2 decades, has a career for Italy that spans 16 years and played in 4 different World Cups, including captaining the nationalteam at the Euro '88 and at the World Cup 1990. He was brilliant at the Euro '88, clearly outperforming Baresi (as did Maldini, who was even more impressive). I don't think he's rated anywhere near that though.
I think calling him overrated in any way or form is totally misleading. Now, if someone rates him along Scirea, Baresi, Maldini, Facchetti I agree with you. Those four have a reasonable claim to be the best players of all time in their roles, all are probably top 3 in most people's opinion. The same isn't true for Bergomi, there's no doubt about that.
But I don't think anyone sees it that way, certainly not in the Redcafe draft community. If anything he's clearly underappreciated and the comments about him so far are mostly something like 'I haven't seen enough of him', 'he lacks intelligence to play this role' or 'he doesn't really stand out in this pool of defenders' I think it's even worse than I thought. There is barely a comment about the possible impact he would have in a game, even though he's clearly the standout defender on the pitch.
I'm with you that he's a little short of the true GOAT level, but he doesn't get anywhere near the credit on the Caf, that this should bring with it and it's really a bit sad. I think it was us, who had the discussion about Gentile, when I argued that I rate Bergomi higher in that right sideback role because he was a clean defender, whose game would translate seamlessly to the modern game. It's a position in this argument that I've always held, so I'm not making this up because he's now in our team. And his performances in the latter years of his career kinda prove that, especially in 1997/98 when Inter was the best team in the league but were robbed by some scandalous refereeing decisions. They had the best defensive record in the league, won the the UEFA Cup ( he sadly missed the final due to injury) and he was still clearly the defensive leader during the season and had no problem playing a more zonal marking system compared to the man-marking role before. It earned him a call up to the World Cup, where he came into the team after Nesta's injury in the group stages and again played as well as always. Bergomi's domestic trophy haul is definitely a bit underwhelming, but for large parts of his career the team simply didn't have the midfielders and attackers to match Scirea's Juve or Baresi's Milan team. The few times he had, they did compete (the league title win with Matthäus and the season I talked about above with Ronaldo along with 3 UEFA Cup wins kinda prove that).
I think he deserves to be rated at least a tier above the other Italian 'sidekicks' like Ferri, Costacurta. Not only was he individually a better defender, but he also was the leader of an excellent defense for almost 2 decades, has a career for Italy that spans 16 years and played in 4 different World Cups, including captaining the nationalteam at the Euro '88 and at the World Cup 1990. He was brilliant at the Euro '88, clearly outperforming Baresi (as did Maldini, who was even more impressive). I don't think he's rated anywhere near that though.
Do you really think that was being unfair to him? No doubt he's an excellent defender and in no way do I mean to call him not smart or anything, but to pull off this role perfectly (that is shutting Nedved down) you need to have an exceptional level of game intelligence and decision making, possibly at the level of someone like Scirea or Figueroa. Not just because he's playing against Nedved but because he has Buchwald on one side who will be leaving his post to follow Ibra as per instructions and Dani Alves on the other, another defender who will surely be a part of the attack and won't always be present at the back in time. Considering all that, and the fact that Nedved himself an extremely clever player would be working with another creative presence in Veron in tandem, Bergomi would really have to measure every single step he takes. It's more than the usual level of caution you would like him to take, instead here he needs to apply incredible discipline as well as making sure to read Nedved's game precisely, and throwing a tackle when he's about to launch one. Sure, he will curb the Czech's dribbling down a lot, but can he at the same time, while constantly monitoring the positions of both the defenders on either side of him, guard the zone from which Nedved likes to take shots? It's an incredibly hard job, just not about Bergomi but I'd struggle to rate many players in that role unless they've displayed exceptional levels of decision making, way higher than the norm.
Sorry, all of that will sound like nit-picking to you, but it's a semi final, there are no glaring mismatches or weaknesses so even an advantage like the one above can make a difference. It just happens that it is the best player in the opposition to make use of that advantage.
I wouldn't question Bergomi's credentials. He is the best defender on the park, your best defender by some distance and I posted in the last thread how he was in the top handful of defensive right-backs of all time. And he is perfect to snuff out a wide attacker, like Neymar or Stoichkov for instance.
That is a different assignment from tracking a wide midfielder though who loves to cut across the midfield and get shots away. I can see him doing a great job covering in behind Alves, but don't really see him stepping into midfield and breaking that defensive line. And would you want him to do that?
That is a different assignment from tracking a wide midfielder though who loves to cut across the midfield and get shots away. I can see him doing a great job covering in behind Alves, but don't really see him stepping into midfield and breaking that defensive line. And would you want him to do that?
Yeah, I think it's complete nonsense, sorry
. The notion that only someone as great as Scirea or Figueroa could have a massive defensive impact here is a massive exaggeration.In general, I don't get the notion that Nedved plays a key role here in this game. He's supposed to cut inside into the most crowded area where Gio already has a quality playmaker in Veron and a sensational box to box midfielder offering a goalscoring threat in Ballack. Nedved doesn't add anything to what those two offer, he's just making it easier for us to defend that area by overcrowding it. And without an attacking fullback stretching the play, there's zero threat from the wing anymore. I really don't see the point. Even worse with Ibra as the striker, who also loves to drop into that same area.
More specifically, regarding Buchwald's role and Alves. You make it sound as if no one is around anymore when we're defending. With Abidal tucking in to help against Müller, Nedved has to do a lot on both ends of the pitch. Which he's of course capable of doing, no doubt. But even though Alves isn't a great defender, he's not completely invisible either and Nedved rarely has a headstart on him because they're defending each other for large parts of the game. Alves won't keep Nedved quiet and needs help, no doubt. But he gets that help.
I don't see the problem with Buchwald either. If Ibra drops deep and Buchwald follows him, we still have Ferri centrally to cover against no one, only maybe Ballack making runs into the box. If Ibra doesn't drop deep, we have two excellent defenders in Ferri and Buchwald constantly in the box. Why would Bergomi expose anything by helping against Nedved? Again, if the point is that Nedved will run into the most crowded area on the pitch and win the game with long range shots while everyone in our team watches him, well I simply disagree. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Even more when people call our set-up too defensive (which I disagree with as well, it's of course a counterattacking set-up built around a strong defensive core, but it certainly isn't a particularly defensive 352 considering the various sources of creativity we have), so we should have enough bodies in the way of that. I love Nedved as a wide playmaker and I'm sure he'll cause us some problems. but if there's no one in Gio's team to keep Bergomi busy, he sure as hell is intelligent enough to find the threat and help where it's needed. He has experience as a rightback against all types of wingers anyway. It's not like he has never faced someone like Nedved before and is totally ill-suited to defend against a wide playmaker.
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That wasn't the notion at all. It's their reading of the game, not their overall quality, that was brought into the argument.
Fair enough if you believe that. Again, in a more traditional setup without specific roles such as the ones given to Alves and Buchwald, he'd be absolutely at home. e.g. In a back four if he played as a right back there are few better I can think of to counter someone like Nedved. Here, though, it's a lot different than that, and exceptional reading of the game is not something I associate Bergomi with. I understand as he's your first overall pick you are a bit edgy about the criticism but it's just about one facet of his game and has nothing to do with his overall quality or impact in this game. In my previous post I myself pointed out that he will shut down the dribbling route for Nedved quite well, something which Gio pointed out as well, that against a wide threat like Neymar or Stoichkov, but Nedved's quite different, and quite unique. I'm sorry but if you are trying to portray Bergomi as flawless in every single facet of defending, then you are surely overrating here. As excellent as he was in most facets, the one he wasn't as good in is the one needed here. That's all.
I still don't get it. So what's Nedved supposed to do centrally in a deeper midfield area that's crowded by pretty much everyone at this point with only Michel stretching the play on the other side of the pitch? Gio's team isn't build around players who excel in tight areas on the pitch, quite the opposite actually. What exactly happens that exposes Bergomi's supposed flaws? I really, really don't understand it. Even if Bergomi is dragged out, he doesn't expose the defense considering Gio's threats and our defenders. There aren't any runners in his team other than Ballack (and even he prefered more a cross than a through ball to finish, which Nedved won't provide after cutting in).
I'm not saying Gio's team doesn't pose a variety of different threats. I just don't see the one Nedved is providing. Nedved at his best usually had 2 forwards in the team to play with who really kept the centerbacks busy and players offering width. Look at the Juve side in 02/03 often playing with Zambrotta and Camoranesi on the wings and two of Di Vaio, Del Piero, Trezeguet in attack. Nedved excelled when cutting into the midfield while others stretched the play and kept defenders away from him.
It's truely the exact opposite of what's happening in this game. If Gio's box to box midfielders at least were comfortable drifting wide, like for example Seedorf does for us. But Veron and Ballack are as central as they come.
I love Nedved and I don't want to downplay him individually in any way. It's just truely mind-boggling to me how he's supposed to be the key player in this game. It's one that really doesn't suit him all that well.
I'm not saying Gio's team doesn't pose a variety of different threats. I just don't see the one Nedved is providing. Nedved at his best usually had 2 forwards in the team to play with who really kept the centerbacks busy and players offering width. Look at the Juve side in 02/03 often playing with Zambrotta and Camoranesi on the wings and two of Di Vaio, Del Piero, Trezeguet in attack. Nedved excelled when cutting into the midfield while others stretched the play and kept defenders away from him.
It's truely the exact opposite of what's happening in this game. If Gio's box to box midfielders at least were comfortable drifting wide, like for example Seedorf does for us. But Veron and Ballack are as central as they come.
I love Nedved and I don't want to downplay him individually in any way. It's just truely mind-boggling to me how he's supposed to be the key player in this game. It's one that really doesn't suit him all that well.
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Don't really agree with much of that at all.
Nedved can go wide or he can go central. There will be space behind Alves - that's pretty obvious from the formation graphic and from anyone who has watched him play. And equally he can cut inside as well onto that right peg of his. Either way he's going to find some space. The only area he won't be getting much joy is if he repeatedly cuts diagonally for goal into Bergomi's space in the way that a Neymar or Stoichkov might do. But he doesn't need to do that here - why would he when he can find space behind Alves and then only has Alonso for resistance through the heart of the midfield.
Nedved can go wide or he can go central. There will be space behind Alves - that's pretty obvious from the formation graphic and from anyone who has watched him play. And equally he can cut inside as well onto that right peg of his. Either way he's going to find some space. The only area he won't be getting much joy is if he repeatedly cuts diagonally for goal into Bergomi's space in the way that a Neymar or Stoichkov might do. But he doesn't need to do that here - why would he when he can find space behind Alves and then only has Alonso for resistance through the heart of the midfield.
Interesting point: you think Nedved will excel if he plays in a a system including a striker and a support striker (like Trezeguet + Del Piero). You are probably right.
On the other hand, we could say that Muller - as a support striker - usually had 2 wingers in the team to play with.
I still hesitate
Close game.Well, yes and no. He often played as a free roaming inside right with only an overlapping rightback. Which isn't too different to what we have here with Müller as a 2nd forward and Alves providing the width. Similarly we have width on the left through Carlos and Seedorf drifting wide. Müller excelled on the counter and in possession teams against deep sitting teams, so it's not like he struggles against a specific tactic either. I don't think it's an comparable issue to the set-up a playmaker prefers around him, which can vary quite a bit depending on the player.
Don't worry. I see no issue regarding Mülller.
I don't think the two striker point is that meaningful. It's often used in reference to any attacker who played before one striker became the norm. Ibrahimovic will occupy Joga/Balu's defence and will hold the ball up for the likes of Nedved and Ballack. He's also a great target for any crosses fizzed across the back line with his exceptional technical ability to turn those in. The fit there looks pretty sound to me.
Oh come on. When we're in possession and Alves pushes forward, Bergomi covers that right channel and picks up Nedved if he receives the ball on the counter in behind Alves. It's a perfectly normal set-up and not an issue. Similarly, a strong winger attacking one on one against the fullback always drags the centerback out to help out and make it 2vs1 against the winger. It constantly happens in a back four, it's even less an issue in a back five. The whole defense shifts towards the side of the ball and moves back when the ball moves around. Again, Bergomi is absolutely brilliant to do that job. There's no one else you'd prefer over him for that role really, ever.
The idea that Bergomi stands still in that one diagonal line and won't interfere if Nedved moves somewhere else or is ill-suited if he chooses to do so seems just silly. Even if Bergomi stays central and Alves allows Nedved to cross the ball in, we have a fantastic defensive core in the middle to deal with your actual goalscoring threats (pretty much Ibra and Ballack). I've said enough about that now though.
I'd rather address this after the game, I've made my point pretty clearly and it's not my match up to push it home. Somewhere in some beach in South America a certain Uruguayan would be cursing me for taking sides in a matchup if I went further.
Nedved obviously isn't going to be completely free. But he has to be one of the most suited players ever to finding space behind a wing back on the flank. When possession transitions over, he will get space. Obviously Bergomi is just the man for the job to shuttle across if Alves is AWOL, but there is still a bit of distance from centre-half to that left-midfield position where he'd need to get to.
Regardless the discussion has been fleshed out enough.
Not necessarily, he is an excellent creative support for Ibrahimovic but a decent goalscoring threat at best. There are certainly better right sided players lying about but most importantly players, who blended significant goalscoring threat with creativity, and were better able to function as an inside forward. With all the talk of Nedved being a wide midfielder as opposed to a wide forward etc, a partnership of Michel and Nedved flanking Ibra doesn't seem ideal to me from the goalscoring stakes. Even Seedorf was more or less equal as a goalscoring threat with regards to Nedved, who has to get the better of Bergomi here. Quite the task for Nedved, given he is up against a defender who frequently used to square up against the likes of Gullit, Conti, Rummenigge, van basten and Maradona amongst others in peak Serie A.
Hardly, I'd argue we have the more creative threat, with the best playmaking midfielder on the field in Xabi Alonso, the stand-out creative attacking midfielder on the pitch in Häßler and of course a well rounded creative threat in Seedorf. Whilst Veron truly rivals Alonso's creativity levels and Nedved and Michel were excellent creatively, I would most certainly claim that our attack has the better service here.
Esp when you factor in the impact of the wing-backs here, who have more or less gone under the radar unfortunately.
The best wing presence on the pitch in R.Carlos. A monstrous wing-back who won the Ballon d'Or siver ball, Fifa World Player of the Year silver ball and was awarded UEFA Club defender of the Year - 2002, 2003. At his peak, he used to dominate the left flank singlehandedly
and one of the greatest modern wing backs of his era in Dani Alves
They are servicing Forlan and Müller here, two absolutely lethal players who weren't reliant on service themeslves and had top notch link-up play. Whilst there is a lot to like about the Puyol-Bratseth partnership, I would give my attacking duo the edge here and our attack faces less resistance to goal relatively, with better and more varied service to boot. In fact in Müller we have the best forward on the pitch, in terms of predatory movement and the ability to take advantage of openings in the channels, in central areas etc from a goalscoring perspective - something which would have suited your team to a tee, in lieu of a wide midfielder.
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Sure. Maybe you're right in that redcafe's reception of him is different from what I imagined. In "overrated" comment I was talking about how his inclusion (deserved, no doubt) in Italy all-time XI puts him on the same level as Baresi, Scirea, Maldini and Facchetti - which is one step too high for him.
Re: lacks intelligence point. Intelligence was probably his main characteristic. Gentile had determination, Burgnich was a physical monster and Bergomi was a fantastic and intelligent man-marker. He is the best defender in the draft for me, as I said earlier.
That'd be putting it mildly
Quite surprised that Bergomi and his defensive zone is one of the main points of discussion here.That'd be putting it mildly
It's not just one of the main points of the discussions, it's apparently one of the main flaws in our team and we have to defend him. I had him before and he was completely invisible as well and the same is here again. He's playing in his best role and should have a significant positive impact on our team, but it's the opposite. It's truely mind-boggling.
I think that Veron takes that title. His vision and technical ability gives him the edge. Not a lot in it and I rate Alonso highly, but I don't think he is as penetrative a footballer as Veron. More proven as a continuity player, but as an influential creative presence Veron takes that one for me.
Come off it. I know you go on to qualify some of that. But Ibrahimovic is a class above any of the three attackers on the park and the only one with a legitimate claim to be a notch above their opposite number.
I'd agree with the appraisal that Veron was the more penetrative passer of the duo but Alonso was the better dictating playmaker imo. Both suit their teams fairly well with mine possessing Häßler who was brilliant at threading the ball through the eye of the needle, whilst Veron complements Ballack's game better.
I meant the best forward on the pitch in terms of predatory movement and the ability to take advantage of openings in the channels, in central areas etc from a goalscoring perspective, which your team lacks significantly imo. Didn't mean the best forward on the pitch, so apologies if you misconstrued that.
I agree with the complementarity point. However I'd emphasise that, as the primary defensive presence in that midfield, Alonso is less suited to dealing with the likes of Ballack, Veron and Nedved when they get motoring.
There's not much footage of Veron on Serie A on youtube - just seems to be this match. But nevertheless it's a good indication of how he performed, the style and all-roundedness of his game against some serious opposition.
Yep, he was that. He wasn't a girl's blouse physically either, though, of course. Very good in the air too. He wasn't overly fast - that could be listed as a weakness, but it was never a problem for him, which further backs up the point, really: He knew how to position himself, absolutely first rate in that regard.
And I agree with the conclusion as well: Best defender in the draft, all things said and done.
Tbf though it should be more or less a partnership of Seedorf-Alonso against Deschamps-Veron and whilst Deschamps is easily the best of the lot defensively, Veron is also easily the worst of that lot (he wasn't too shabby and could put in a shift). I'd give you the edge with Ballack's physicality but Häßler more than matches up to Ballack, when it comes to industry alone. Already, made the point on the first page -both midfields are built differently and are well balanced but there's nothing much between them.
The area which stand out to me the most relatively is my forward duo against your CB pairing - as good as they were.
There is no relative advantage there at all though. They are both good strong partnerships, amongst the best in the draft without being the absolute creme de la creme, going head to head. The only one in the four who would be closest to a draft select XI is Bratseth. Muller would not be far away as a right-sided attacker, but as a centre-forward he'd fall short of Ibra, Shevchenko, Weah and probably a couple of others.
Interesting, I wouldn't have Bratseth near the draft select XI, with the likes of Lucio, Buchwald and Boateng from the Bundesliga alone, in addition to Thiago, Bergomi, Hierro, Ruggeri, Ferrara etc being better defenders imo. Müller as a second striker/striker is amongst the best in the draft and apart from Totti and Kaka, (who themselves aren't quite as forward-ish as Müller and as suited to this role) I wouldn't say there are others who I'd have over him in this role. No surprise here that he was picked in the first round as one of the stand out players.
Well given our own personal biases here, to use an independent source the Kicker ratings for Bratseth are quite compelling and place him ahead of Buchwald and second only really to Kohler in that era of German defenders. And since then only Lucio from the Bundesliga matches that level of performance. Again his reputation isn't great, but his performances certainly were.
The only objective source of football information - pes database.
Defence:
Bratseth - 90
Buchwald - 90
Boateng - 84
Lucio - 84
Defence:
Bratseth - 90
Buchwald - 90
Boateng - 84
Lucio - 84
Yup, he was rated fairly highly by kicker, as too was Buchwald, who led Stuttgart to two titles as the captain, even going so far as to nabbing the title winning goal on the final match day of the season. Buchwald was twice rated by kicker as the best defender in the Bundesliga (as too had Bratseth) gaining a rating of 2.54 and 2.57 and was voted into the top 5 defenders of the year twice for good measure. Still, I wouldn't place too much weight upon these ranking as the differences in era, biases etc tend to heavily weigh in on the rankings, which I'm sure @Balu could expand upon after this match is over.
Likewise, they also rate Ballack reaching his only world class season as a defensive midfielder which is bollocks imo, but I certainly won't be claiming that you aren't getting peak Ballack here as an AM, with the kicker rankings as the basis of my argument. Or that Häßler is rated as world class thrice but Ballack is only rated as world class once, thus Häßler>Ballack etc.
Also for instance, Dunga was rated as the third best player in the Serie A by an Italian publication but I wouldn't solely use the rankings as the basis of their quality. It helps as a selling point, yes, but shouldn't be used as the prime marker as to the indication of his quality.
Serie A at 1989/1990
7,00 Manfredonia (Roma)
6,83 Zenga (Inter)
6,77 Dunga (Fiorentina)
In 1988/1989
6,73 F. Baresi (Milan), Júnior (Pescara)
6,62 Brehme (Inter)
6,61 Zenga (Inter)
6,59 Berti (Inter)
6,56 Dunga (Fiorentina)
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Oh well, if I start ranting about kicker ratings, I probably write till anto is back. What's definitely true is that they're worth absolutely nothing if you want to compare between eras. Regarding defenders, the top defenders today might make it slightly below 3.0, which is a fairly average ranking. To put it in perspective, Boateng's best ever rating wouldn't have been good enough to make the top 50 defenders in the Bundesliga in most seasons in the 70's.
It's a decent indicator when comparing players from the same era/seasons, but of course still flawed.
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as a randomly picked example:
Klaus Senger was rated with 2,88 in 73/74 in 50th place between the defenders while playing for Rot-Weiss Essen (rating is the German grading system, from 1 to 6 with 1 being the best in case someone doesn't know). They conceded 70 goals and finished 13th. I have no idea who Klaus Senger even was. In our treble winning season, when we set a new record for fewest goals conceded, Javi Martinez was our highest rated defender with 2,98 follwed by Alaba with 3,00, Dante with 3,02 and Boateng with 3,06. Those were the top 4 highest rated defenders that season in the whole league. Martinez would have been 58th in that 73/74 season.
I haven't looked into Buchwald's or Brathseth's ratings, but it makes sense if they're fairly close to each other. Considering how Rehagel's Bremen side was set up in a more negative way, I wouldn't be surprised if Bratseth has the more favourable one. I have a soft spot for Buchwald, so my personal take on it would give him the edge for a few reasons, but there's not much in it either way.
. What's Bergomi's rating? And is his lack of intelligence part of it? And yes, I am still angry about that comment @Aldo .
It's a decent indicator when comparing players from the same era/seasons, but of course still flawed.
/edit:
as a randomly picked example:
Klaus Senger was rated with 2,88 in 73/74 in 50th place between the defenders while playing for Rot-Weiss Essen (rating is the German grading system, from 1 to 6 with 1 being the best in case someone doesn't know). They conceded 70 goals and finished 13th. I have no idea who Klaus Senger even was. In our treble winning season, when we set a new record for fewest goals conceded, Javi Martinez was our highest rated defender with 2,98 follwed by Alaba with 3,00, Dante with 3,02 and Boateng with 3,06. Those were the top 4 highest rated defenders that season in the whole league. Martinez would have been 58th in that 73/74 season.
I haven't looked into Buchwald's or Brathseth's ratings, but it makes sense if they're fairly close to each other. Considering how Rehagel's Bremen side was set up in a more negative way, I wouldn't be surprised if Bratseth has the more favourable one. I have a soft spot for Buchwald, so my personal take on it would give him the edge for a few reasons, but there's not much in it either way.
. What's Bergomi's rating? And is his lack of intelligence part of it? And yes, I am still angry about that comment @Aldo .
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96, actually! As I understand, "defense" is more about defensive positioning, hence it's related to the football intelligence. Not sure though, as I only discovered pesdatabase after someone (was it ando?) posted them in the draft thread and, obviously, never played in it
As I said, ridiculously overratedHe is 96 above Scirea, Passarella, Moore, Scirea and Figueroa
Go Bergomi!!!