Zlatan in the Milan derby against another set of Inter defenders:
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - SF Gio vs Joga/Balu
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No question about that and they were all brilliant at breaking the lines and were dynamic players, however, if there's one aspect they were lacking in it was in the goalscoring department, apart from Ballack of course. Your other midfielders and esp the forwards did have decent goalscoring records but in this rarefied field and against an excellently balanced defense, it's going to take more than that to break through. It speaks volumes that Ballack who is an excellent supplementary goalscoring threat, is primarily relied on to make a chunk of the goalscoring threat with Ibrahimovic.
Anyway as stated before,
Who has a higher chance of breaking through, with the midfields at a deadlock, Müller and Forlan against Abidal-Brathseth-Puyol or Ibrahimovic-Ballack against the likes of Bergomi-Buchwald-Ferri at the back? That too with my side having the distinct edge in the creativity stakes with Alonso, Häßler, Seedorf and of course the two Brazilian wing-backs. Truckloads of creativity and a nicely balanced goalscoring threat in our dynamic forward duo, should ensure we have the higher chance of actually breaking through and getting on the scoresheet in a tough and tight match.
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Well Pavel Nedved was devastating from around the edge of the area - 11 goals in 26 Serie A game in his first season with Lazio. Michael Ballack always plundered the goals - 17 in 29 for Leverkusen in their great run in 2001/02 and he was hitting similar numbers for Bayern. And Michel scored 27 in 71 Liga games in the late 1980s. That wasn't a one-off - he replicated that for Spain (1-in-3 record and 4 at Italia '90) and in Europe where he was once top scorer in the European Cup. That isn't relevant in judging his performance here - it's just a sense of how he could well get on the end of things.
And these numbers are from when the game was more defensive and not as tilted towards the elite clubs like they are now.
And these numbers are from when the game was more defensive and not as tilted towards the elite clubs like they are now.
Good game @Gio and good luck for the final mate.
Well played. That was a tough shift.
Two great teams and some really good discussion in this one from both sides.
Went for Gio in the end as I marginally prefer his midfield and attack - in particular the use of Veron and Ballack, with the latter looking like a great foil for Ibrahimovic when he moves forward.
Went for Gio in the end as I marginally prefer his midfield and attack - in particular the use of Veron and Ballack, with the latter looking like a great foil for Ibrahimovic when he moves forward.
Good game. I really tried to avoid making it a 2vs1 discussion all the time but got dragged into it more than I wanted to, sorry for that. But at least you were around to fight back
.Good luck for the final.
As mentioned before the problem with those PES stats is twofold:
1) the aim is to create parameters which make the player move about functionally in the game while reflecting real life traits as much as possible. The former part is key to understanding how these stats “work”, though, not the latter.
2) the parameters are limited. For instance, there is no stat for “intelligence” or even something as basic as “positioning”. To try and capture the latter, they tweak the available parameters as best they can, but it's obviously a far cry from reality.
1) the aim is to create parameters which make the player move about functionally in the game while reflecting real life traits as much as possible. The former part is key to understanding how these stats “work”, though, not the latter.
2) the parameters are limited. For instance, there is no stat for “intelligence” or even something as basic as “positioning”. To try and capture the latter, they tweak the available parameters as best they can, but it's obviously a far cry from reality.
Aye, the stats themselves are of limited use, although they can be a half-decent starting point for something basic like pace. To give those forumites their due though, they do often assemble some good footage of players, and their discussions are occasionally excellent as there are a few members who have clearly put the time in to watch all sorts of obscure players.
True, that, well in some cases, that's all the insight you can get. And trust me I've sometimes gone for way, way too obscure players (ones who'd probably be in a reserves of reserves draft or something) so it can be helpful there.
The ratings, even for simpler stuff, is pretty rubbish and often overblown, which is understandable as it's for a video game.
Absolutely, there's plenty of good info to be found there. I'm just extremely skeptical about those stats, for good reasons. Even basic things like speed and acceleration have to be taken with a grain of salt, as they too are tweaked in order to achieve the particular sort of in-game "realism" they aim for.
There are also plenty of stats sets for old school players on there which are clearly not based on sufficient footage - and which have often been submitted by one guy, not being challenged by anyone else. Those are pretty much worthless, in my opinion.
Thing is, what we see now is that people on here use these stats tongue-in-cheek - but to what end? They're still stats people attach some degree of truth and importance to (all stats are, sadly, like that), and so it becomes a kind of "haha, look at this, my man is better than yours according to PES, not that it matters but..." argument which is actually highly dubious.
You literally wrote that he lacks that sort of game intelligence to play the role we tasked him with. My comment was obviously a bit tongue in cheek and meant as a dig, but my god, you are sensitive these days. I still strongly disagree with pretty much everything you wrote about Bergomi's role, as I've made clear with every post. I have a completely different impression of Bergomi's strength than you and consider his reading of the game and decision making to be the main reason behind his excellence as a defender and why he's perfectly suited to the role we gave him no matter how great his opponents were. And considering some of the comments in this thread, I don't think I'm alone with that.You won't be able to find anywhere where I've said Bergomi lacks intelligence. Saying his reading of the game, a very specific skill, isn't his primary quality doesn't automatically imply the other extreme but it isn't the first time someone in a draft game has taken a comment out of proportion so I wouldn't hold it against you.
I don't want to go into all the details now that it's over, so let's just agree to disagree about the Bergomi thing. If you felt offended, I'm sorry. But compared to the mudslinging in your games in this draft and all your snide remarks, this was truely harmless, so I'm surprised you took it all that seriously. Oh well, whatever. Till next time
.I'll side step the off topic stuff and come straight to the point - you again haven't really gone back to my comment and have just posted your version of it. You don't have to pretend that I questioned Bergomi's quality or even his role in this game. Seriously, what the hell would be wrong with playing him as a RCB, when he's one of the best ever to do that? It was a very specific part of that role, that also included the players around him and the opposition in front of him which was criticised, and even that criticism was only meant to say that he's not absolutely ideal in that particular facet, which where we can agree to disagree. Not to mentioned I considered Bergomi to perform the rest of the role to a perfection, which of course was ignored, but yeah, draft games and everything that comes with it!You literally wrote that he lacks that sort of game intelligence to play the role we tasked him with. My comment was obviously a bit tongue in cheek and meant as a dig, but my god, you are sensitive these days. I still strongly disagree with pretty much everything you wrote about Bergomi's role, as I've made clear with every post. I have a completely different impression of Bergomi's strength than you and consider his reading of the game and decision making to be the main reason behind his excellence as a defender and why he's perfectly suited to the role we gave him no matter how great his opponents were. And considering some of the comments in this thread, I don't think I'm alone with that.
I don't want to go into all the details now that it's over, so let's just agree to disagree about the Bergomi thing. If you felt offended, I'm sorry. But compared to the mudslinging in your games in this draft and all your snide remarks, this was truely harmless, so I'm surprised you took it all that seriously. Oh well, whatever. Till next time
Hey, thank you for the tributeTaking over from Balu.
Likewise Häßler has 3 world class seasons as opposed to Ballack's one and that too as a defensive midfielder but it doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, as stated earlier
Interesting point of view, and I'd certainly have him as one of the top forwards in this draft but wouldn't put him in his own tier myself. Even perennial Ibrahimovic backer Annah claimed in the main draft thread - "Awesome draft anyhow with some interesting first picks like Zlatan who will be a hard sell with just that one year at his peak for Milan" and likewise Enigma and Viva claimed he went too early. Although tbf, The Stain did call him the best player in the draft.
He was excellent for Inter and had a brilliant one year at Milan but personally don't think it's enough to warrant a place in his own tier, esp given the brilliant records that the other forwards (Eto'o, Villa, Shevchenko, Klinsmann, Forlan etc) boast in this particular context. Well perhaps I'm too harsh on him given the downturn in quality that Serie A experienced during the late noughties. Certainly nabbed some impresive individual awards albeit the league lacking in individual quality relatively.
Anyway here are some gifs for those interested in true Downcast style
Giving Puyol the slip before slotting in the opener
Taking the mickey out of Puyol with a one-two and making him look amateurish, before slotting in a trademark long ranger.
Barca were one of his favourite goalscoring opponents - scoring 9 goals in 9 games during his la liga career against Barca when Puyol played, with Puyol frequently struggling to get the handle on the deadly and elusive Uruguayan.
04/05: 5 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 draw
06/07: 0 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
07/08: 1 goal in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
08/09: 2 goals in 1 game, 1 win
09/10: 1 goal in 1 game, 1 win
10/11: 0 goal in 1 game, 1 loss
It will be quite the task for the Spaniard to get a handle of Forlan in his red hot la liga form.
I thought I would have the time to come back here in order to make some gifs and vote. But, unfortunately bad day for me.
The idea was to analyse the confrontations between Ballack & Seedorf !
Well, great effort from both sides and unsurprising close game.
To be honest, it all sounded and still sounds (I read over it again) like sugarcoating. Your interpretation of what's happening around Bergomi reads more like a rather extreme example in which you put all of our players in exactly the position where you need them to be (ignoring what we want them to do) to come to the conclusion that it makes things quite relaxed for Nedved as you put it. And it does make it hard to believe that you actually think Bergomi is doing a great job considering it sounds as if he doesn't defend against Ibra or Nedved in any effective way.Not to mentioned I considered Bergomi to perform the rest of the role to a perfection, which of course was ignored, but yeah, draft games and everything that comes with it!
That's pretty much at your end, dude. You want me to acknowledge the positive impact he's having in the game and when I do, it sounds like sugarcoating and is hard to believe? Not sure what more you are expecting of me?
Again, one minor criticism has led you to think that I believe that he's not going to be effective in this game or some other made up crap, despite me repeatedly mentioning the positive impact he would have both in my original argument and now, so that's not something I can do much about. Like I said, I expect you to be more objective.
Anyway, game's done, if you are having trouble believing that I actually rate Bergomi, then so be it.
Don't mean to butt in but just curious about who would be the defenders, whom you would consider to have the requisite intelligence and decision making for this particular RCB role that Bergomi has been deployed in, in this specific set-up.
Unfair to criticize the best defender on the pitch, a proven versatile player who used to play in a 3-5-2 system.
I know some hate stats but no coincidence if he had 80 caps with Italy and played 4 WC.
I know some hate stats but no coincidence if he had 80 caps with Italy and played 4 WC.
I'd start with not playing a 3 man backline without a strong DM against a player like Nedved but that's just me, of course. I even mentioned in this thread that in a back four Bergomi would one of the first names that I'd pick for the right back role against a player like Nedved. (Just my opinion, every setup has pros and cons and this is just my preference, so don't take it personally).
But to answer your question, and a pretty obvious one - Lilian Thuram.
Well, apart from Thuram are there any other defenders capable of fulfilling this 'taxing role' as a RCB in this set-up and possessing 'that sort of game intelligence', or is he the only one in the history of the game who could possibly play this role?
Is there a point to this exercise?
Yes, I'm really intrigued as you've stated that Bergomi doesn't possess the level of game intelligence and decision making for this particular role in this specific set-up and you've also stated that it isn't a matter of quality but rather their reading of the game etc.
So I'm just genuinely curious as to how many players fit the parameters that you have for this role, apart from the only alternative you've named thus far in Thuram?
Pretty much.
It's not a tactic I invented, not one I liked either, so I won't have a long list of players who can do that job. I mentioned that you need exceptional level of reading of the game - how many defenders can you think of that? But more than anything, Nedved, a left winger by trade, shouldn't be picked up by a RCB in a three man backline, it should be the RB's job to do that. A prime Rio Ferdinand in the middle with a strong determined RB with quick reactions and pace is what I'd ideally have. Even with Thuram in that role I can't see Nedved not making an impact in this game, and you'd struggle to find a bigger Lilian fan around here. But as for your exercise - you'd need a RCB with quality reading of the game, so take your pick.