La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - SF Gio vs Joga/Balu

[Gio]

It's a persuasive case Bratseth is building with these Kicker ratings, never mind those PES bad boys.

Seriously though I'm not sure what element of his game falls short compared to the calibre he is up against. It's rare when you get a big man with pace and intelligence - but it's a powerful set of qualities when it all comes together. He's right there as one of the best defenders of his era, second only to Kohler in the Bundesliga at the time, and regarded as Norway's greatest ever player.

Terrible mistake.

He is 96 above Scirea, Passarella, Moore, Scirea and Figueroa . Now you've given @harms all the ammunition he needs

96? I'm doomed!

 

[Joga Bonito]

I'm not questioning his quality, he was a fine defender after all but I do think it is a bit of an overstatement to claim he is draft XI material or to claim that he is the standout player from the Puyol-Müller-Forlan quadrant, esp since we are talking about CL winning Bayern and WC-winning German vintage's most consistent and pivotal player since 2009, alongside Lahm; and a double pichichi and double European Golden Shoe winning forward - and if we want to talk about ratings, his average rating was among Spain's top five for four of the five consecutive seasons, in the mid tolate noughties la liga pool

 

[Skizzo]

Go Bergomi!!!

Ber-GOGOGO-mi!

 

[Balu]

Seriously though I'm not sure what element of his game falls short compared to the calibre he is up against. It's rare when you get a big man with pace and intelligence - but it's a powerful set of qualities when it all comes together. He's right there as one of the best defenders of his era, second only to Kohler in the Bundesliga at the time, and regarded as Norway's greatest ever player.

He was a quality defender, but second only to Kohler seems a bit over the top, at least if you try to imply that he stands out above the rest or something like that. Even the kicker rankings put Buchwald in a similar light, who topped the rankings twice in a row in 89/90 and 90/91, was ranked above Bratseth in 91/92 as well and finished 2nd only behind Berthold in 93/94 again ahead of Bratseth. That's some consistency and beating Kohler during his title winning season at Bayern. Bratseth's are pretty similar, topping the list in 88/89 and 92/93 (both title winning seasons for Bremen) and finishing 2nd in 87/88.

Again, it's just ratings, I wouldn't read too much into it, but as an indication they work for us just as good as for you.

Like I said, there isn't much between Buchwald and Bratseth. Both had success in the league, showed consistency and proved their worth in European competitions for the club as well. Buchwald was absolutely brilliant in that UEFA cup run to the final, when Maradona cheated Napoli to the win. Neither of them is quite up there with the likes of Förster, Sammer, Kohler but a tier or two below if we talk about the 80's/90's Bundesliga defenders.

 

[Fergus' son]

It's not just one of the main points of the discussions, it's apparently one of the main flaws in our team and we have to defend him. I had him before and he was completely invisible as well and the same is here again. He's playing in his best role and should have a significant positive impact on our team, but it's the opposite. It's truely mind-boggling.

Agreed!

 

[Gio]

I'm not questioning his quality, he was a fine defender after all but I do think it is a bit of an overstatement to claim he is draft XI material or to claim that he is the standout player from the Puyol-Müller-Forlan quadrant, esp since we are talking about CL winning Bayern and WC-winning German vintage's most consistent and pivotal player since 2009, alongside Lahm; and a double pichichi and double European Golden Shoe winning forward - and if we want to talk about ratings, his average rating was among Spain's top five for four of the five consecutive seasons, in the mid tolate noughties la liga pool

He was a quality defender, but second only to Kohler seems a bit over the top, at least if you try to imply that he stands out above the rest or something like that. Even the kicker rankings put Buchwald in a similar light, who topped the rankings twice in a row in 89/90 and 90/91, was ranked above Bratseth in 91/92 as well and finished 2nd only behind Berthold in 93/94 again ahead of Bratseth. That's some consistency. Bratseth's are pretty similar, topping the list in 88/89 and 92/93 (both title winning seasons for Bremen) and finishing 2nd in 87/88.

Like I said, there isn't much between Buchwald and Bratseth. Both had success in the league, showed consistency and proved their worth in European competitions for the club as well. Buchwald was absolutely brilliant in that UEFA cup run to the final, when Maradona cheated Napoli to the win. Neither of them is quite up there with the likes of Förster, Sammer, Kohler but a tier or two below if we talk about the 80's/90's defenders.

Bratseth does have three 'world-class' seasons to Buchwald's one, but we'll leave it at that. I rate Guido quite highly being a fan of the 1990 West German team, an often under-rated one in World Cup history. But the suggestion that Buchwald would have an easier time against Ibrahimovic as opposed to Bratseth and Puyol against Muller and Forlan doesn't sit right with me at all. There are 4-5 excellent players there, but Ibra is in his own tier relative to them within the context of this draft. The others are all spot on and are much of a muchness between them all.

 

[Balu]

Bratseth does have three 'world-class' seasons to Buchwald's one, but we'll leave it at that. I rate Guido quite highly being a fan of the 1990 West German team, an often under-rated one in World Cup history. But the suggestion that Buchwald would have an easier time against Ibrahimovic as opposed to Bratseth and Puyol against Muller and Forlan doesn't sit right with me at all. There are 4-5 excellent players there, but Ibra is in his own tier relative to them within the context of this draft. The others are all spot on and are much of a muchness between them all.

I don't think either forward line has it easy, but we do have a spare defender at the back (even after one of Ferri or Bergomi helps out on the wing) while your centerback pair face a brilliant complementary forward duo. I think it's not unreasonable to say that your duo (or trio if you want Abidal to tuck in and Nedved to defend against Alves) has a more difficult job and it's more important that your midfield limits the service for Forlan/Müller than it's the other way round.

 

[Balu]

Oh and, is there really a gap between Ibra's peak level and Müller's? I'm a massive fanboy, so it's more a question than really a point I'm trying to make. I just think that Müller's impact in his teams in the last 2-3 years is up with anything Ibra has done in his career, just in a very different way. But that's just my take on it, I don't expect people to take me seriously when it comes to Müller. (I feel like I've been proven right time and again though).

 

[Gio]

I don't think either forward line has it easy, but we do have a spare defender at the back (even after one of Ferri or Bergomi helps out on the wing) while your centerback pair face a brilliant complementary forward duo. I think it's not unreasonable to say that your duo (or trio if you want Abidal to tuck in and Nedved to defend against Alves) has a more difficult job and it's more important that your midfield limits the service for Forlan/Müller than it's the other way round.

Well if you have a spare player at the back then you have one less attacking so that blunts your attacking threat as well. Again the evidence for Bratseth and Puyol with quality full-back support having a tougher task against Forlan and Muller than Buchwald against Ibrahimovic doesn't ring true for me.

 

[Gio]

Oh and, is there really a gap between Ibra's peak level and Müller's? I'm a massive fanboy, so it's more a question than really a point I'm trying to make. I just think that Müller's impact in his teams in the last 2-3 years is up with anything Ibra has done in his career, just in a very different way. But that's just my take on it, I don't expect people to take me seriously when it comes to Müller. (I feel like I've been proven right time and again though).

Last year was the first campaign Muller scored more than 13 league goals. He's a bloody great player, but I think it's pretty clear that he's a level below Ibrahimovic based on their respective league contributions. He may go on to match or overtake him during the rest of his career, but Ibrahimovic not just in his goalscoring but his overall creative contribution is surely ahead.

The package that the Swede brings is pretty incredible really. A physical monster, agile as a gymnast, expert finisher, pile-drivers from range, with the technique and feet of the nimblest no10s.

 

[Balu]

Well if you have a spare player at the back then you have one less attacking so that blunts your attacking threat as well. Again the evidence for Bratseth and Puyol with quality full-back support having a tougher task against Forlan and Muller than Buchwald against Ibrahimovic doesn't ring true for me.

It's not that simple considering what Abidal and Deschamps offer going forward for your team compared to our wingbacks and Alonso. I'd argue that we have more players (or at least the same number depending how you rate Abidal's attacking contribution) who contribute in both phases of the game and it can make a difference here. It allows us to keep a truely strong central defensive core while still having lots of creativity in attack. And again, Ibra isn't just up against Buchwald in a 1vs1 duel. If that was the case, you'd have a point. But Ibra has to score against our defensive unit, just like Forlan/Müller have to score against yours.

Last year was the first campaign Muller scored more than 13 league goals.

He's already on 19 this year, surely that counts as well? .

 

[Gio]

It's not that simple considering what Abidal and Deschamp offer going forward for your team compared to our wingbacks and Alonso. I'd argue that we have more players (or at least the same number depending how you rate Abidal's attacking contribution) who contribute in both phases of the game and it can make a difference here. It allows us to keep a truely strong central defensive core while still having lots of creativity in attack. And again, Ibra isn't just up against Buchwald in a 1vs1 duel. If that was the case, you'd have a point. But Ibra has to score against our defensive unit, just like Forlan/Müller have to score against yours

Well I'd agree you have 3 centre-halves who contribute little on the ball and 3 midfielders who do. None of your 3 defenders are known for their ability to play attacking football. The problem is that you might want some football coming out of that back three to help those transitions forward. In contrast, we have two players at home in Guardiola's tiki-taka in Puyol and Abidal, alongside a brilliant sweeper/libero in Bratseth, as well as Reuter who was handy on the ball as well, and even Chilavert too for that circulation of quality possession. On the ball we look more fluid and able to initiate attacks from the back without compromising on that defensive solidity.

I'm also not convinced how solid your midfield is off the ball relative to what they're up against. Ballack, Veron and Nedved will present a huge challenge for the likes of Alonso and Seedorf. The latter is a good all-rounder but typically played with a harrier like Gattuso at Milan, Karembeu at Real or Davids and Cocu with Holland. Normally it wouldn't be a problem, but there's a specifically acute challenge presented by my midfield that they might struggle with at times.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Taking over from Balu.

Bratseth does have three 'world-class' seasons to Buchwald's one, but we'll leave it at that.

Likewise Häßler has 3 world class seasons as opposed to Ballack's one and that too as a defensive midfielder but it doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, as stated earlier

but Ibra is in his own tier relative to them within the context of this draft.

Interesting point of view, and I'd certainly have him as one of the top forwards in this draft but wouldn't put him in his own tier myself. Even perennial Ibrahimovic backer Annah claimed in the main draft thread - "Awesome draft anyhow with some interesting first picks like Zlatan who will be a hard sell with just that one year at his peak for Milan" and likewise Enigma and Viva claimed he went too early. Although tbf, The Stain did call him the best player in the draft.

He was excellent for Inter and had a brilliant one year at Milan but personally don't think it's enough to warrant a place in his own tier, esp given the brilliant records that the other forwards (Eto'o, Villa, Shevchenko, Klinsmann, Forlan etc) boast in this particular context. Well perhaps I'm too harsh on him given the downturn in quality that Serie A experienced during the late noughties. Certainly nabbed some impresive individual awards albeit the league lacking in individual quality relatively.


Anyway here are some gifs for those interested in true Downcast style

Giving Puyol the slip before slotting in the opener

Taking the mickey out of Puyol with a one-two and making him look amateurish, before slotting in a trademark long ranger.

Barca were one of his favourite goalscoring opponents - scoring 9 goals in 9 games during his la liga career against Barca when Puyol played, with Puyol frequently struggling to get the handle on the deadly and elusive Uruguayan.

04/05: 5 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 draw
06/07: 0 goals in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
07/08: 1 goal in 2 games, 1 win, 1 loss
08/09: 2 goals in 1 game, 1 win
09/10: 1 goal in 1 game, 1 win
10/11: 0 goal in 1 game, 1 loss

It will be quite the task for the Spaniard to get a handle of Forlan in his red hot la liga form.

 

[Gio]

Likewise Häßler has 3 world class seasons as opposed to Ballack's one and that too as a defensive midfielder but it doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, as stated earlier

Balu already advised you not to compare across generations, unlike the Bratseth/Buchwald comparison.

Interesting point of view, and I'd certainly have him as one of the top forwards in this draft but wouldn't put him in his own tier myself.

He's not in his own tier. Only as a line-leader, but as a striker in the pool he sits alongside Shevchenko and probably Weah at the top. He is clearly IMO in a tier ahead of Forlan and Muller in the next one down alongside a load of other great players including the ones on our benches.

Anyway here are some gifs for those interested in true Downcast style

Well we have seen these already in fairness. But just to recap, the first one Puyol has to take some responsibilty - although I don't see Reuter letting Forlan run off him so easily - especially when the German has him for pace. Nor do I see Deschamps conceding such a good passing position there from the heart of midfield. As for the second one, trying to blame Puyol there is misleading. Forlan is operating in midfield there and runs past two Barcelona midfielders - Puyol isn't culpable at all there.

 

[Joga Bonito]

On the ball we look more fluid and able to initiate attacks from the back without compromising on that defensive solidity.

Whilst Buchwald wasn't necessarily a great passer, he was a decent passer and has played in midfield to an equally high level for both Germany and Stuttgart and he can certainly keep the ball circulating as too could Ferri who has played as a sweeper before.

Also this is where Alonso, the best deep playmaker in this draft, comes in with his ability to playmake from deep and transition smoothly from deeper areas. An excellent article on his impact for several la liga teams - right from the Sociedad side which came runners-up to Mourinho's and Ancelotti's Real

In contrast, we have two players at home in Guardiola's tiki-taka in Puyol and Abidal, alongside a brilliant sweeper/libero in Bratseth, as well as Reuter who was handy on the ball as well, and even Chilavert too for that circulation of quality possession.

If we are looking at ball-carrying/transitioning threats from deep, then surely R.Carlos and Dani Alves are easily the pick of the bunch. Especially the latter who more or less functioned as a playmaker for Sevilla and is the best playmaking defender on either teams, with Alonso being the best playmaking midfielder (Veron the more incisive one as we agreed upon) and Häßler the most creative attacking midfielder. There is no shortage of ability to initiate attacks from the back with the wing-backs playing a crucial role or a lack of creativity in the side.

 

[Joga Bonito]

As for the second one, trying to blame Puyol there is misleading. Forlan is operating in midfield there and runs past two Barcelona midfielders - Puyol isn't culpable at all there.

He runs after the ball recklessly (doing a shuttle run), despite the man already being covered by a defender and completely abandons his position, which creates space for Forlan to shoot and score.

 

[Gio]

If we are looking at ball-carrying/transitioning threats from deep, then surely R.Carlos and Dani Alves are easily the pick of the bunch. Especially the latter who more or less functioned as a playmaker for Sevilla and is the best playmaking defender on either teams, with Alonso being the best playmaking midfielder (Veron the more incisive one as we agreed upon) and Häßler the most creative attacking midfielder. There is no shortage of ability to initiate attacks from the back with the wing-backs playing a crucial role or a lack of creativity in the side.

The problem with both wing-backs is that their ability to transition the 3-5-2 will be limited somewhat by the presence of Nedved and Michel. Let's say they are both marked, that leaves your back three somewhat stuck with the ball and no real ball player to do anything of note with it. Football is fluid and it won't always be the case, but there does seem to be a critical break there in how you build up play.

 

[Gio]

He runs after the ball recklessly (doing a shuttle run), despite the man already being covered by a defender and completely abandons his position, which creates space for Forlan to shoot and score.

There is a player standing on the corner of the box who is day-dreaming next to the referee and may as well not be on the park. He's the man to blame there. Puyol is merely tracking the run.

 

[Fergus' son]

Oh and, is there really a gap between Ibra's peak level and Müller's? I'm a massive fanboy, so it's more a question than really a point I'm trying to make. I just think that Müller's impact in his teams in the last 2-3 years is up with anything Ibra has done in his career, just in a very different way. But that's just my take on it, I don't expect people to take me seriously when it comes to Müller. (I feel like I've been proven right time and again though).

I'd certainly count on Muller, ahead of Zlatan, to make an impression in a closely contested game such as this. Zlatan has never really impressed me in the big games that I have seen him in over the years whereas Muller consistently seems to make a difference.

To say Zlatan is in his own tier here is absolute nonsense.

 

[Gio]

I'd certainly count on Muller, ahead of Zlatan, to make an impression in a closely contested game such as this. Zlatan has never really impressed me in the big games that I have seen him in over the years whereasMuller consistently seems to make a difference.

Well this is not a Champions League knockout draft. It's a league draft where Zlatan's credentials are almost impeccable (he's won 13 of the feckers in his career).

 

[Joga Bonito]

Let's say they are both marked, that leaves your back three somewhat stuck with the ball and no real ball player to do anything of note with it. Football is fluid and it won't always be the case, but there does seem to be a critical break there in how you build up play.

As stated above, Buchwald and Ferri were more than capable of bringing the ball out from the back and building up moves and whilst I can see Nedved doing a good job on Dani Alves, I can't see Michel doing a similar pressing/marking job on R.Carlos. He was quite decent defensively and had good work rate but it's going to take more than that to cut R.Carlos out of the game, whose blend of dynamism and sheer explosiveness might be too much for the Spaniard to keep tabs over. Likewise, on the ball the back 3 can easily pass to either of the wing-backs, Alonso or Seedorf for that matter. As you say yourself football is fluid and it's not like all of them are going to be marked out of the game at the same time.

 

[Fergus' son]

Well this is not a Champions League knockout draft. It's a league draft where Zlatan's credentials are almost impeccable (he's won 13 of the feckers in his career).

But he is playing against that quality of team, and like I said, I tend to think he isn't so effective in that situation.

I remember Rio saying similar a couple weeks back, stating that he and Vida had no trouble at all containing him.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I'd certainly count on Muller, ahead of Zlatan, to make an impression in a closely contested game such as this. Zlatan has never really impressed me in the big games that I have seen him in over the years whereas Muller consistently seems to make a difference.

To say Zlatan is in his own tier here is absolute nonsense.

Well this is not a Champions League knockout draft. It's a league draft where Zlatan's credentials are almost impeccable (he's won 13 of the feckers in his career).

That's a bit disingenuous tbf, he's had two of them revoked due to Calciopoli, won four leagues in the Ligue 1 which isn't irrelevant in this context, won 4 Serie A titles in a severely diminished Serie A and also whilst he was impressive for Barca for some time, he fell out with Guardiola halfway through the season. He league tally is most certainly impressive but tends to get blown out of proportion at times imo.

 

[Gio]

Also this is where Alonso, the best deep playmaker in this draft

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it still won't be true.

I do like Alonso and certainly batted for him on the Caf when he was compared to Carrick in his Liverpool days. Where does he stand amongst the playmaking midfielders in this draft? Pretty high for sure. Not sure if he's the best. I'd certainly want the best playmaking midfielder to have at least one nomination for the ESM Team of the Season for instance (unlike Veron, Ballack and Seedorf). Particularly when there was an opportunity to be regarded as the main midfield man after Xaviesta declined.

At Real he was always a little suspect off the ball, not positionally - he was fine. But off the ball when other midfielders started running at him and he'd usually just chop them down because he was never particularly mobile. And he'll have to deal with a lot of that here.

 

[Gio]

That's a bit disingenuous tbf, he's had two of them revoked due to Calciopoli, won four leagues in the Ligue 1 which isn't irrelevant in this context, won 4 Serie A titles in a severely diminished Serie A and also whilst he was impressive for Barca for some time, he fell out with Guardiola halfway through the season. He league tally is most certainly impressive but tends to get blown out of proportion at times imo.

Not when the point is a general one about performances in other competitions. His league credentials are superb.

But he is playing against that quality of team, and like I said, I tend to think he isn't so effective in that situation.

I remember Rio saying similar a couple weeks back, stating that he and Vida had no trouble at all containing him.

Again - Champions League. Different competition and not relevant for this draft.

He's scored in plenty of massive league games over the years.

 

[BBRBB]

I don't like the defensive setup of Joga/Balu, especially the man marking role of Buchwald. Following Zlatan in midfield won't achieve much, he will still do his one touch flicks to help the ball go forward.

I understand the goal is to allow more to freedom to the top wing backs, in fact it may be great in attack but it will severely lack width cover in defense. If R.Carlos and Alves stay in midfield to cover the wings it will leave massive holes behind them and if they drop all the way back in defense they will have a hard time assuming both their attacking and defensive duties.

I'd have dropped one CB, you have high enough quality to stick to 2, or at least kept the CBs to zonal marking to help cover the wide areas and allow full license to Roberto Carlos and Dani Alves going forward.

It's true Gio doesn't have the perfect setup to exploit it but still balanced enough to pile on that.

 

[Moby]

What's Bergomi's rating? And is his lack of intelligence part of it? And yes, I am still angry about that comment @Aldo .

You won't be able to find anywhere where I've said Bergomi lacks intelligence. Saying his reading of the game, a very specific skill, isn't his primary quality doesn't automatically imply the other extreme but it isn't the first time someone in a draft game has taken a comment out of proportion so I wouldn't hold it against you.

What the feck are these ratings though? At least whatever I was saying was out of me watching him play.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Pretty high for sure. Not sure if he's the best.

He was most certainly behind the likes of Scholes, Pirlo, Xavi etc but I can't see a better playmaking midfielder of his ilk in this particular draft.

He won the best midfielder of the year in Real's record setting charge to the la liga and was arguably the world's best deep lying playmaker alongside Busquets and equally played a huge role in Ancelotti's Real side too. He was the cornerstone of Real's midfield and till Modric came along, he was the primary playmaker whom their team revolved around.

Following Zlatan in midfield won't achieve much, he will still do his one touch flicks to help the ball go forward.

Yes, that was a key facet of Ibrahimovic's game and he was really brilliant at it with his technique and physicality but wouldn't you say that Gio's team lacks the goalscoring threat to capitalise on his playmaking tendencies. In fact it actually burdens Ibrahimovic to function more as a traditional centre-forward and deprives him of the chance to exhibit his clear playmaking edge, with the lack of another goalscoring forward. Whenever he drops deep, his team loses a huge chunk of his goalscoring threat and doesn't fully capitalise on his creative abilities either.

to help cover the wide areas and allow full license to Roberto Carlos and Dani Alves going forward.

Both our side centre backs are doing just that though, providing cover for the wing-backs and covering the channels, with Buchwald primarily keeping his eye on Ibrahimovic. It's key to note that Buchwald is the spare man in the defense and has more freedom to execute his role, without significantly compromising on the shape or the dynamics of the defense.

Will just post this excerpt from the write-up of my previous match, to highlight the back three's versatility and they know all about the intricacies of this formation like the back of their hand.

A bulwark consisting of three rock solid defensive powerhouses who guard the defensive zone. Not much needs to be said about their defensive prowess - each of them where renowned man-markers who've quite the assortment of forwards' scalps (Rummenigge & Maradona for eg). However, it is their all-round defensive game and tactical malleability which truly makes them a devastating package.

An all-time great, Giuseppe Bergomi has excelled playing as a centre back and as a full back and has fulfilled various defensive roles (defensive sweeper/stopper/man-marker) whilst oscillating between a back 4 and a back 5. An exceptional defender, the moustachioed hardman certainly knew a thing or two about about shutting down the opposition, and holding the fort like few others. Having excelled as a side centre-back, man-marker and as a stopper,Riccardo Ferri also shone in the demanding roaming defensive (ala Gentile) role to perfection for club and country, emphasising his defensive versatility. He was an excellent all-round defender who was a mainstay in Inter's defense and kept the likes of Vierchowod and Ferrara out of the Italian side. Guido Buchwaldfurther takes it up a notch in the versatility stakes, having excelled in midfield, in addition to his sterling work in defense in several roles, esp as an impeccable man-marker. He has won the World Cup and 2 Bundesligas to boot, scoring the deciding goal on the final day of the season to nab the Bundesliga.

 

[Gio]

Yes, that was a key facet of Ibrahimovic's game and he was really brilliant at it with his technique and physicality but wouldn't you say that Gio's team lacks the goalscoring threat to capitalise on his playmaking tendencies. In fact it actually burdens Ibrahimovic to function more as a traditional centre-forward and deprives him of the chance to exhibit his clear playmaking edge, with the lack of another goalscoring forward. Whenever he drops deep, his team loses a chunk of his goalscoring threat and doesn't fully capitalise on his creative abilities either.

Not really. The 4-3-3 set up he is in enables him to drop into the hole. He merges the functions of a 9 and 10 better than anybody in this draft and you want to build him the space to do that. So while I could have brought in a classy 10 like Totti in during the last reinforcement round, it wouldn't necessarily give Ibra the freedom he needs to do what he does best. It's also important that you surround him with hard-working players who can get beyond him, behind him and work the flanks, we have two of them out wide and another in Ballack who will join him in attack. He will also relish the service he gets from Veron and Ballack as well as the cross balls that he excels at turning into the net.

 

[Moby]

it's apparently one of the main flaws in our team

We won;t be able to have a healthy discussion if you make stuff up that was never said.
Honestly a bit surprised at the way you've reacted, despite me repeating that it's a minor argument relative to a very specific facet of the game, which you've barely mentioned in any of your replies, instead you've decided to go with the 'how dare you question Bergomi' tone. If you can't handle even such minor criticism then what's the point of giving feedback at all? Might as well just vote and leave.
Not sure what's with this draft, people losing their cool all over the place.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The 4-3-3 set up he is in enables him to drop into the hole. He merges the functions of a 9 and 10 better than anybody in this draft and you want to build him the space to do that. So while I could have brought in a classy 10 like Totti in during the last reinforcement round, it wouldn't necessarily give Ibra the freedom he needs to do what he does best.

I'm not questioning Ibra's role in particular and the 4-3-3 suits him to a tee, esp bringing out his creative tendencies. What I'm questioning is whether it's optimal given how much goalscoring threat your side would lose whenver he drops deep and it takes the sting out of your attack. It does force him to play a more constrained role up front imo.

 

[BBRBB]

Yes, that was a key facet of Ibrahimovic's game and he was really brilliant at it with his technique and physicality but wouldn't you say that Gio's team lacks the goalscoring threat to capitalise on his playmaking tendencies.

Zlatan works very well with Lucas and Di Maria for PSG with neither being a natural scorer, he will also like Nedved and Michel, with Ballack as an additionnal threat.
edit: it works better with attacking full backs though.

Both our side centre backs are doing just that though, providing cover for the wing-backs and covering the channels, with Buchwald primarily keeping his eye on Ibrahimovic. It's key to note that Buchwald is the spare man in the defense and has more freedom to execute his role, without significantly compromising on the shape or the dynamics of the defense.

So it would be like an oldschool trio of fullbacks + center half?

 

[Joga Bonito]

It's also important that you surround him with hard-working players who can get beyond him, behind him and work the flanks, we have two of them out wide and another in Ballack who will join him in attack.

No doubt, but it seriously lacks punch when your forwards have a 1 in 4 & a 1 in 5 records, and they are both playing as wing-forwards in a 4-3-3.

 

[harms]

What the feck are these ratings though? At least whatever I was saying was out of me watching him play.

Maybe you missed it when you were away - we all had a good laugh when someone introduced PES stats to our draft community. And, on a serious note, they do try to recreate the players as good as possible (not that they always succeed)

 

[Gio]

I'm not questioning Ibra's role in particular and the 4-3-3 suits him to a tee, esp bringing out his creative tendencies. What I'm questioning is whether it's optimal given how much goalscoring threat your side would lose whenver he drops deep and it takes the sting out of your attack. It does force him to play a more constrained role up front imo.

Well there is plenty of goal threat in the midfield and from wide areas. In league terms, Ibra himself is a 30-goal-a-season man, Ballack a 15-20 goal-a-season man while Michel and Nedved both hit double figures in their more productive campaigns. Collectively they work together and collectively there is sufficient goal threat.

 

[Moby]

Maybe you missed it when you were away - we all had a good laugh when someone introduced PES stats to our draft community. And, on a serious note, they do try to recreate the players as good as possible (not that they always succeed)

Yeah, I know about them. I visit the forum from time to time to see comments about obscure players, never look at the rating though.

 

[Enigma_87]

Maybe you missed it when you were away - we all had a good laugh when someone introduced PES stats to our draft community. And, on a serious note, they do try to recreate the players as good as possible (not that they always succeed)

Just checked Lucio. He's on 84, then at Inter 93 Then I look at Beckenbauer and see 94. Means he's 1 point off him.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Zlatan works very well with Lucas and Di Maria for PSG with neither being a natural scorer, he will also like Nedved and Michel, with Ballack as an additionnal threat.

Yes, but he is still heavily the predominant goalscorer in that trio which once again brings me back to the point of Ibrahimovic being over burdened and asked to deliver the goods and the goals almost single-handedly.

So it would be like an oldschool trio of fullbacks + center half?

Not necessarily, the centre-half in those classic formations tended to function more as a deep-ish B2B players (Monti being a prime example) whilst Buchwald is quite simply the third centre back and has the defensive freedom to drop deep or go forward as he sees it.

 

[Gio]

Yes, but he is still heavily the predominant goalscorer in that trio which once again brings me back to the point of Ibrahimovic being over burdened and asked to deliver the goods and the goals almost single-handedly.

He's very capable of achieving things single-handedly. But we are certainly not relying on that. That's why we have such strong midfield support to:

• ensure Ibrahimovic gets the service he needs
• build on Ibrahimovic's ability to hold the ball up and play in the likes of Ballack, Nedved, Veron and Michel - they are all excellent from range, excellent in the very space they'd be connecting with the Swede, and all, apart from Seba, excel at breaking the lines.

 

[Joga Bonito]

30 minutes to go and in search of the equaliser.
The spatial investigator. As Uli Hesse famously claimed -" Thomas Müller can’t beat you with his close ball control. He can’t beat you with his pace. And he can’t beat you with his dribbling skills. He just beats you."

Or could Forlan rifle in a thunderbastard against Puyol whom he frequently had the better of in their club encounters