Lack of physicality hurting us?

Ananke

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
1,438
Location
Manchester
I wouldn't put it down to physicality, particularly as, if anything, our midfield has become more physical. The problem, and I've said it so many times that i'm in danger of boring myself, is that we don't have a general at the back. Someone who can organise the back line and rally the troops. We need a leader. The defensive line yesterday was shambolic and all over the place. You expect to see that kind of openess and lack of discipline at a club who are free-falling to relegation, not a club that has CL qualification as a minimum requirement.
Spot on.

We're not a physical team, we're a creative one. You dont have to be a physical team to compete in this league. What you do need is a leader at the back who holds you together. When everyone is rattled, he calms you down and takes charge. Evans and Smalling imo are not big enough characters and never will be. They're injured way too much to even get cemented in that back line.

Get rid, bring in 2 more experienced defenders with big enough egos.
 

surf

Full Member
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
6,731
Location
In the wilderness
Spot on.

We're not a physical team, we're a creative one. You dont have to be a physical team to compete in this league. What you do need is a leader at the back who holds you together. When everyone is rattled, he calms you down and takes charge. Evans and Smalling imo are not big enough characters and never will be. They're injured way too much to even get cemented in that back line.

Get rid, bring in 2 more experienced defenders with big enough egos.
That's a good point. Ferguson was not a great believer in defensive midfielders or over-protecting the defence and expected Ferdinand/Vidic to deal with things as they arose. And they did.
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
96,711
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
What's this physicality bullshit, our players aren't exactly midgets, they just choose not to barge in. It's in the mentality, it's not in the build.
Yes and you can see that there are many players of different builds who succeed in this league without being that strong. If you're ready for a physical fight then it's already a big step. Hazard knows he's going to barged, hacked and fouled, that doesn't stop him from playing his game. We need our players to be psychologically ready for it.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,155
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
Yes and you can see that there are many players of different builds who succeed in this league without being that strong. If you're ready for a physical fight then it's already a big step. Hazard knows he's going to barged, hacked and fouled, that doesn't stop him from playing his game. We need our players to be psychologically ready for it.
I remember reading somewhere that players like Keane and Vierra knows how to play dirty and make their tacklers pay (retaliation, kicking them when they charged, and all)

Makes players thinks twice before coming to them.

I think this needs to be implemented, targeting players that plays dirty, even when in the end we get a card or a red, it gives a strong message of "don't mess with us"
 

Maroo

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
633
Location
"Next time you pass"
You don't see them outmuscled in the World cup?

Does that means Messi will be nutmegged by Stoke defender? You can't beat them on the air, beat them on the flank before they cross
You see, its always a good quality to have, especially in the Premier League where even teams like Chelsea and City seem to be playing such a physical game. We have seen Messi restricted by Chelsea on more than one occasion, haven't we?

Your point about beating them on the flank is perfectly right, however, we play a diamond which is not one which has width as its strength. We saw on more than one occasion that the full backs did not have much help. Actually, thats something which we need to sort out- big Sam would have watch both our weaknesses on the flanks and those big balls coming in. I reckon it won't be an easy game on Saturday.

Also can't wait to have Shaw on the flanks. I reckon he should be a more natural than Rojo at left-back
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,155
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
You see, its always a good quality to have, especially in the Premier League where even teams like Chelsea and City seem to be playing such a physical game. We have seen Messi restricted by Chelsea on more than one occasion, haven't we?

Your point about beating them on the flank is perfectly right, however, we play a diamond which is not one which has width as its strength. We saw on more than one occasion that the full backs did not have much help. Actually, thats something which we need to sort out- big Sam would have watch both our weaknesses on the flanks and those big balls coming in. I reckon it won't be an easy game on Saturday.

Also can't wait to have Shaw on the flanks. I reckon he should be a more natural than Rojo at left-back
Being a beast in the air comes with other shortcomings, very rarely we see player who's a beast physically does well in technical aspect of the game. Hence technically good and physically well built is a combination for success more than not.

You might lose a header or two, but we have been played of the park not by a proper brick battering ram like Drogba, we're played of the park by an average day to day footballer, something is wrong with this.
 

Maroo

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
633
Location
"Next time you pass"
Being a beast in the air comes with other shortcomings, very rarely we see player who's a beast physically does well in technical aspect of the game. Hence technically good and physically well built is a combination for success more than not.

You might lose a header or two, but we have been played of the park not by a proper brick battering ram like Drogba, we're played of the park by an average day to day footballer, something is wrong with this.
Could'nt agree more with this; very disconcerting to say the least.
 

Robbie Boy

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
28,608
Location
Dublin
Well hopefully we can sort ourselves out for Saturday. Song and Kouyate will be a very strong physical presence in the middle of the park.
 

andualem

Full Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
405
More then the Physicality i think our fitness levels have been a major issue. After 60mins we completely dropped away. Van Gaal mentioned that there was minimal work on fitness during pre season and more focus on the tactic side of the game. Much like the QPR game, our performance dropped after 60-70min mark. In that case QPR they were so shithouse and couldn't get out of their own half. Whilst Lestier are a team with an extremely good team spirit and excellent fitness and overran us. This will improve as the season goes on, and hopefully we don't make the same mistake next season.
 

JSMHE

New Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
1,410
Shawcross and Cattermole in Jan and we're sorted.
I haven't pay attention on him that much since last season. So I don't know how he progress. And I was surprise that he didn't got the call during World Cup. He is a proven EPL centre back. The most positive thing is he is not an injury prone. There was a rumour that he is being offered an 8 million. And I think that price could be a bargain price.
 

quackattack

Full Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
896
More then the Physicality i think our fitness levels have been a major issue. After 60mins we completely dropped away.
We need JSP back:/

Anyways, for the OT:

Guess GK is alright, but I think Tim Weis should be an obvious signing.
In the back (I'll say four) we could make use of Elokobi. Should be cheap and will give som needed power in the back, he can also play wingback. Other than that, Richards is already highlighted as one we should go for and with Valencia on the RB and Shaw on the left we have at least some decent coverage here. And with our already existing players we are quite well covered (Jones could bulk up a bit).

Now we should go all in for Yaya and Ronaldo next transfer window. They have excellent physical abilities as well as being quality all over.
Up front we should get rid of those weaklings we already have, perhaps except falcao and maybe Rooney (for his determination), but buy Akinfenwa, one of the most bulky strikers I've ever seen on the professional stage. Of course Zlatan could also be a really good option here, but might be a bit difficult to get.

Now we should have a fairly good and bulky team that can't just be pushed aside. No more excuses please :)
 

thepolice123

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
12,228
It's not the lack of physicality but rather the lack of a strong mentality. In that aspect i feel that we are dangerously becoming another Arsenal. The amount of times teams did the late sucker punch to us last season was, franking speaking, quite shocking. This season we already have two games which resulted in defeat. In Fergie's final season with us, we won a ridiculous 28 points from losing positions, that's 10 games over the spread of 38 games and 4 points more than what the 99 team achieved. Moyes came in and single-handedly destroyed that culture Fergie has painstakingly built throughout the years. We are fecking Manchester United, we are supposed to be the one delivering the late killer blow, not the other way round.

It doesn't matter if a bunch of thugs to us and try to play their version of football if we have players confident enough to take on them. Our players are 10x the technical beasts than any of the Leicester players, we should be the one playing them off the fecking park with our football, not letting them bully us all over the place. When they scored the penalty, you can see the confidence just went out of the window. Mata came on and you could tell he was in fear. De Laet sensed blood and absolutely flatten him. It was cringeworthy.
 

Tonjo

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
716
Location
Singapore
If Smalling is really injured. It is time to move Felliani to center of the defence. I believe he will do a good job there. Since he does not have pace but he has good ball control and is both physical and good in the air.
This week team should be:
De Gea
Valencia Felliani Rojo Shaw
Blind
Herrera Di Maria
Rooney
Falcao Van Persie
 

Dr Baltar

Full Member
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
1,305
Location
Margaritaville
We need a reliable partnership comprised of men to make us a top team again. Nearly every team that was succesful last year had a couple of mature centre halves that were reliable & took responsibility. Miranda & Godin, Demichelis & Kompany, Cahill & Terry, Pepe & Ramos.
I can't see any combination of our current centre backs forming a partnership like what's needed.

Evans, Jones & Smalling are not good enough to put up with the inconsistency & injuries.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,937
We need to acknowledge that we can't have Rooney or Mata, Di Maria, RVP, Falcao and Herrera all tucked in the same side.
 

Tonjo

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
716
Location
Singapore
I believe Man United has been following the set-up used by the Germans during their dominating years.
They have a pair of fantastic center backs complementing each other. Beckenbauer and Schwarzenbeck.
United has been having these type of combinations since the earlier Ferguson era. They had Bruce and Pallister ; Vidic and Ferdinand.
Now it is time to use back the same type of combination. What I meant is one center back with confidence on the ball and the other had physical strength. Felliani and Rojo may be that combination if given a chance.
 

bugmat

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
2,741
Location
Caribbean
Yep, a bit, and the defence a bit.

But what has really been hurting us for more than 2 years now is that we are NOT a team, and are not playing like one. For too long we have been trying or wishing for certain players to become or do what they simply are not / can't do, and by insisting on that we have either taken their qualities from them or sold them. Instead of having a team which compliments each other perfectly, we strangely want every player to defend and every attacker to be world class.

Ronaldo, Modric, Benzema, Di Maria couldn't be more different to each other, but they complemented each other perfectly. The caf has been giving Benzema a hard time, but HE was and is needed in the sea of RM's other excellent and yes better players and his team mates and Ancelotti appreciate him.

Now they have Kroos, who although a different player, shares some similar attributes (especially weaknesses) to Mata and Özil. Bayern fans here have been on record claiming how Kroos plays well when the team does well, and doesn't turn up when it isn't working. We have seen this already in games. He isn't physical either, neither is he quick. Still most of the Caf wanted him here (and not even as a 10, but in a 2 men midfield), but most of the caf is also on record blaming Mata and Özil for the same weaknesses. Still Kroos had been doing fine at Bayern and in the national team because he had other players around him (wingers with pace, all round mids, dm, hard working striker) who complemented him perfectly.

We wanted Kagawa and Mata to defend and tackle and what not. We wanted Chicharito to change his game. We didn't appreciate Welbeck's pace, presence, pressing, work rate and hard work, instead blaming him for not scoring when not even playing as a striker, but ironically we want Mata to be a bit like him (you know, we wish he could defend, had pace, etc.).

Now Welbeck and Özil/Cazorla will get the best out of each other at Arsenal, while we have sold Welbeck and if LvG continues to play our big names, we will also most probably get rid off Mata.

Instead of letting Mata be what he actually is (a quality attacker), linking up with 2 strikers (one who has pace and works hard (yes Welbeck), plus one of Rooney/RvP/Falcao (yes, we should be having one or mostly two of them, not three similar strikers), with Di Maria and 2 other midfielders behind them, plus a settled defence, then we would hardly be a team with big names who can't play together, but rather a team consisting of players with different attributes, who compliment each other perfectly.

Now that doesn't mean that Mata shouldn't try to improve defensively, or Welbeck attacking wise, but the potential is there, they are good/great young players willing to learn. However the focus should be on their primary attributes which should be appreciated. Let Mata do attacking and a cm + dm defending. You can't have 5 Matas, but you can't have 5 speed merchants or hard working guys either in the same team. However, you need one or two from both sets in order to get the balance right and in order to have some variety.

I was sure with LvG that we would finally play like a team again. But when I was finally getting over the loss of Welbeck (well what else should I do), then he delivers his next strange decision and drops Mata. Both players sold/dropped to accomodate the same 3 strikers who don't and no matter how many excuses the Caf makes who won't complement each other, because first of all they play the same position and second they are too similar with mostly similar weaknesses, oh and on a sidenote, they are a bit old and injury prone, too. I like Falcao and it's not his fault or decision to get rid off Welbeck, but if we had actually decided to sell Welbeck because we wanted to buy someone like Diego Costa + keep one of RvP/Rooney/Falcao, then the balance would have been perfect. But no, we had to have 3 similar strikers, and not only that, we are actually starting with all of them.

Yes it has only been one game and we were apparently (not true actually) in control, then how the hell did Leicester score 3 goals? Even if one was gifted, why did they always look like scoring everytime they advanced? And no, the attack wasn't fine, because if they could have kept the ball better Leicester might not have created those chances. It was also brilliant play by Di Maria to actually take Rooney's not so great pass and score a beauty, and good play by Falcao for the first goal (good work and great cross, from which RvP almost missed). It's not like it was great combination play which involved half a team or something similar. But what do we know about that? We are not a team after all, so it's either the attack's, the midfield's or the defence's fault, as if they were 3 different teams.

And if it was just one game, then it was also a game against a newly promoted team. Against a half decent team we should actually play with just one striker, and if LvG starts with three strikers, I don't even want to know what the top 1-7 teams in the league will do to us.

I am still hoping for LvG to turn it around. But he has already made some stupid mistakes, and if he continues to make them, then he won't be here for long. And after spending all that money, he'll only have himself to blame.

That's coming from someone who desperately wanted him because I know what he has done with Bayern (and yes I also know of his mistakes at Bayern) and how ppl at Bayern still give him some credit, not only for Bayern's success, but also a bit for Germany's national team.
But so far at United he has done a lot of things he didn't do at Bayern (spendig big, bringing in a last minute striker who doesn't offer much of what we didn't already have, getting rid off a promising youth product instead, not dropping big names, getting the attack even more unbalanced after having complained about an unbalanced squad, etc.).

That's what worries me, because if he is doing things that much differently to what he did at Bayern, then how and why should I be expecting or hoping for similar results to Bayern? (I don't mean game results, but what he leaves behind).

Really after spending so much and still needing to spend, we could have actually given that money to Guardiola or Mourinho instead (theoretically speaking, as they probably weren't available). Because with the players they like and can get, they actually guaranty wins and trophies on a much more regular basis than LvG!
He's had 2 games with his full team of attackers... why not make some realistic expectations? It's a team riddled by injuries since preseason and players are only now settling while the defence continues to fall apart - what exactly do you expect him to do - put on his boots and defend? Vs Leicester the fault was with the experienced heads eg Giggs (on the side), Rooney, RvP et al - with so many new boys it needed an old head experienced with the PL to take charge and decide to stop attacking.

Blind and Herrera have only played 2 games together and neither have played more than 3 games in the league. The subs were not great but even worse was the team tactics to try and keep scoring.

No matter who was on field if we had decided to, as a team, settle for 3-1 or 3-2 and pass the ball around and stretch them..vs trying to pass through them to their goal we'd have kept the ball better and not given them the 3 chances they took to win. it's apparent that LvG thought, having many experienced players everywhere except defence he didn't need to tell them this - hopefully now he realises they aren't as savvy as he thought and we see Giggs at a minimum passing on instructions from the line and not ppl sitting on the bench!
 

AllezLesDiables

Full Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
1,812
It's an issue of leadership and toughness. The difference between the teams in the PL decreases every year so much so that the teams that succeed not only have the best talent but they also have the talent that isn't afraid to get dirty and mix it up. The difference between Arsenal v. Chelsea and Man city is that Arsenal isn't a tough team. Arsenal can overwhelm most of their teams with their talent but when they get into it with the best teams they tend to get swamped because they can't handle physical aspect of the game and they tend to get overrun.

As for the back 4 there's no established leader. Until there's someone with a forceful presence who can keep things organized and get on people with the other players still respecting him the defense will struggle.