Laurence Fox to launch new UK (gammon) political party

fergieisold

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The point is your hero Fox will happily talk over a person of colour who is explaining the prejudice they've faced, insisting the UK is the most tolerant country in Europe.
He has zero perception that not everyone shares his life experience. With the Meghan press coverage issue he's basically making himself, a privileged white male, arbiter of what black people can and can't find racist.

You know this though. @Mr Pigeon @Fluctuation0161 and @JPRouve have already explained this to you. You seem to revel in insisting on playing devil's advocate to get a reaction.
come back when you’ve read my posts.
 

Tarrou

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Disagree with the first bit, you don't have to caveat a statement with 'by the way this is an opinion' before stating something. At what point did he tell anybody to shut up? He's just frustrated with the current narrative which reverts to 'it's racist' rather than testing logically for other things first. Racism should be a high bar. Rule other things out first because it's just lazy and illogical to cry racism at the first opportunity.

Lots of white people seem to be trying to out woke each other with the shut up and listen lines. How about a conversation? Might be a lot more productive?

His political party is a waste of money, time and effort. Doesn't mean I don't agree with some aspects of what he has said.
that's what he called the woman on question time when she told him he's speaking from a position of privilege
 

fergieisold

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that's what he called the woman on question time when she told him he's speaking from a position of privilege
The context is important though. He was more or less parodying the woke left. Also feel like what she said about white men was a lot closer to racism than the Meghan problem. Also since when was Meghan black? I thought she was white?!
 

Fluctuation0161

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The context is important though. He was more or less parodying the woke left. Also feel like what she said about white men was a lot closer to racism than the Meghan problem. Also since when was Meghan black? I thought she was white?!
I'm surprised you could make that mistake like that considering you have been so right with all of your other posts.

On a more serious note...
Maybe you accepting you misunderstood something so badly will 'wake' you up to your other misconceptions. I suspect not though.
 

fergieisold

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I'm surprised you could make that mistake like that considering you have been so right with all of your other posts.

On a more serious note...
Maybe you accepting you misunderstood something so badly will 'wake' you up to your other misconceptions. I suspect not though.
Just reading wiki now. She's descended from enslaved africans on her mothers side. I'm not bothered about race so I don't usually research people heritage before forming opinions. I still don't think I've said anything unusual...internet is crap for communication, I don't even think there is a 'right' answer as such.
 

nimic

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And I'm all out of bubblegum.
Just reading wiki now. She's descended from enslaved africans on her mothers side.
So you're telling me you felt comfortable weighing in on the "Meghan problem" without even knowing the very basics of the "problem"? Without even having glanced at her Wikipedia page, to see if there was some context you were missing?

I'm not bothered about race so I don't usually research people heritage before forming opinions. I still don't think I've said anything unusual...internet is crap for communication, I don't even think there is a 'right' answer as such.
 

fergieisold

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So you're telling me you felt comfortable weighing in on the "Meghan problem" without even knowing the very basics of the "problem"? Without even having glanced at her Wikipedia page, to see if there was some context you were missing?



So me not caring about someones race and claiming there is no right answer makes me a narcissist. :lol:

Still nobody has come up with any tangible evidence that the uk media racially abused Meghan to the point she left the UK to go to the USA...an even more racist country.
 

Tarrou

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The context is important though. He was more or less parodying the woke left. Also feel like what she said about white men was a lot closer to racism than the Meghan problem. Also since when was Meghan black? I thought she was white?!
Nah he wasn't doing that, see for yourself

 

fergieisold

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Nah he wasn't doing that, see for yourself

Ok, I've watched it a few times and yes he does use that argument, I feel he had a bit of a point though with the whole white privileged male comment. It's not that I don't think white male privilege exists...I just don't think it's very helpful trying to get people to open up and talk about things. As soon as anybody is told you are X or labelled as something they naturally immediately become more defensive.

Currently trawling through the Meghan potentially racist media...bit of a mixed bag, nothing especially bad it's all a bit subtle if it is there at all. 'exotic DNA' seemed to get a lot of criticism but again there's opinions on both sides. A badly judged joke about royal monkeys from a BBC presenter. a headline saying she is almost straight outta Compton.

sources...

exotic DNA
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...y-Harry-beautiful-bolter-failed-Mum-Test.html

Compton
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...arry-s-girlfriend-actress-Meghan-Markles.html

Compton wiki quick look at demographics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton,_California#Demographics

Danny Baker Monkey cartoon
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693

Original VOX article
https://www.vox.com/first-person/20...e-prince-harry-leaving-royal-family-uk-racism

Lets throw piers Morgan in for fun on the DNA debate.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/13/pier...markle-racist-media-coverage-debate-12048124/
 

esmufc07

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Ok, I've watched it a few times and yes he does use that argument, I feel he had a bit of a point though with the whole white privileged male comment. It's not that I don't think white male privilege exists...I just don't think it's very helpful trying to get people to open up and talk about things. As soon as anybody is told you are X or labelled as something they naturally immediately become more defensive.

Currently trawling through the Meghan potentially racist media...bit of a mixed bag, nothing especially bad it's all a bit subtle if it is there at all. 'exotic DNA' seemed to get a lot of criticism but again there's opinions on both sides. A badly judged joke about royal monkeys from a BBC presenter. a headline saying she is almost straight outta Compton.
She doesn't start her comment with the white privileged male comment, she starts by stating the treatment of Meghan by the media was racist (it was). Fox doesn't even attempt to say reasons why the treatment may not be racist, other than to say that the UK is the loveliest most tolerant country in Europe, which doesn't mean anything. We may be less racist than some other European nations but we are still an inherently racist society (structurally) and our wealth as a nation was built on the backs of Empire, colonisation and slavery (racist endeavours, or the white mans burden as Kipling put it).
 

2cents

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Ok, I've watched it a few times and yes he does use that argument, I feel he had a bit of a point though with the whole white privileged male comment. It's not that I don't think white male privilege exists...I just don't think it's very helpful trying to get people to open up and talk about things. As soon as anybody is told you are X or labelled as something they naturally immediately become more defensive.

Currently trawling through the Meghan potentially racist media...bit of a mixed bag, nothing especially bad it's all a bit subtle if it is there at all. 'exotic DNA' seemed to get a lot of criticism but again there's opinions on both sides. A badly judged joke about royal monkeys from a BBC presenter. a headline saying she is almost straight outta Compton.

sources...

exotic DNA
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...y-Harry-beautiful-bolter-failed-Mum-Test.html

Compton
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...arry-s-girlfriend-actress-Meghan-Markles.html

Compton wiki quick look at demographics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton,_California#Demographics

Danny Baker Monkey cartoon
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693

Original VOX article
https://www.vox.com/first-person/20...e-prince-harry-leaving-royal-family-uk-racism

Lets throw piers Morgan in for fun on the DNA debate.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/13/pier...markle-racist-media-coverage-debate-12048124/
Can you explain why you’ve provided a link to a wiki section on the demographics of Compton?
 

fergieisold

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She doesn't start her comment with the white privileged male comment, she starts by stating the treatment of Meghan by the media was racist (it was). Fox doesn't even attempt to say reasons why the treatment may not be racist, other than to say that the UK is the loveliest most tolerant country in Europe, which doesn't mean anything. We may be less racist than some other European nations but we are still an inherently racist society (structurally) and our wealth as a nation was built on the backs of Empire, colonisation and slavery (racist endeavours, or the white mans burden as Kipling put it).
Yeh, I think one of the things to come out of this is the lack of any reasoning about why something may or may not be racist. The racist history of the UK is inescapable, there needs to be a better way to get the current white wealthy generation to recognise this without telling them to shut up and listen. I know intentions are good but for most it will just come across as being told they are part of the problem when most are far removed from the historical roots of their wealth.
 

2cents

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I assumed the Compton comment was referring to black gangs of some sort so I looked up the demographic split in Compton.
And I assume you’ve concluded that the “Straight Outta Compton” thing isn’t really racist because Hispanics are a majority in Compton, is that correct?
 

2cents

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No, I just wondered why Compton was a thing...
And I’m still wondering why you felt the need to link to the demographics of Compton. What point was it you were trying to make, or information you were trying to provide?
 

fergieisold

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And I’m still wondering why you felt the need to link to the demographics of Compton. What point was it you were trying to make, or information you were trying to provide?
Well there's an update to this story but if the article was referring to Compton in a racist way then their must have been some reason...demographics isn't a bad place to look.

The update to the story is I didn't know straight outta Compton was a film haha! Gonna have to watch it now aren't I?!
 

Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
I feel he had a bit of a point though with the whole white privileged male comment. It's not that I don't think white male privilege exists...I just don't think it's very helpful trying to get people to open up and talk about things. As soon as anybody is told you are X or labelled as something they naturally immediately become more defensive.
What you (and many others) are saying is basically this: If someone appears unreasonable and prejudiced, it mustn't be pointed out because he or she will "naturally immediately" throw a hissy fit. And if you do, you're a "wokist" who provokes people into becoming right wingers.

That sums up the self-styled universalist, objective, rational, color-blind anti-"woke" attitude so well.
 

2cents

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The update to the story is I didn't know straight outta Compton was a film haha! Gonna have to watch it now aren't I?!
It’s a film, an album, and a song. By NWA. A phrase with a lot of history and connotations behind it.
 

fergieisold

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What you (and many others) are saying is basically this: If someone appears unreasonable and prejudiced, it mustn't be pointed out because he or she will "naturally immediately" throw a hissy fit. And if you do, you're a "wokist" who provokes people into becoming right wingers.

That sums up the self-styled universalist, objective, rational, color-blind anti-"woke" attitude so well.
No, it can be pointed out. But 'you are' statements and 'shut up and listen' statements maybe aren't helpful?
 

2cents

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I'll have to listen. I'm a big music fan but a rap wise an outsider, love old Eminem and 2001 by Dre is brilliant.
How interesting.

Has anything you’ve learned in the last few minutes caused you to reconsider the nature of that headline?
 

fergieisold

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How interesting.

Has anything you’ve learned in the last few minutes caused you to reconsider the nature of that headline?
It's definitely the one article that I'd agree is racist. Do you think it's harmful though? So difficult to quantify how we get from a lazy stereotype headline to people discriminating to the point of limiting groups opportunities, if that makes sense?
 

Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
No, it can be pointed out.
Except that's where the hissy fits usually start when it comes to white privilege. It's a "don't mention the war" thing.
But 'you are' statements and 'shut up and listen' statements maybe aren't helpful?
No one said "shut up and listen" to Fox in that video, absolutely no one. You are making things up.
 

Shamwow

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The context is important though. He was more or less parodying the woke left. Also feel like what she said about white men was a lot closer to racism than the Meghan problem. Also since when was Meghan black? I thought she was white?!
You know it's one of the most frustrating things when you experience racism as a mixed race person and people tell you that it can't be that as you look white. I'm speaking from experience. Actually you clearly wouldn't know that. You'd do well to pay more attention to people who actually experience this shit rather than bigoted charlatans like Fox.
 

fergieisold

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You know it's one of the most frustrating things when you experience racism as a mixed race person and people tell you that it can't be that as you look white. I'm speaking from experience. Actually you clearly wouldn't know that. You'd do well to pay more attention to people who actually experience this shit rather than bigoted charlatans like Fox.
I didn't say it can't be racism. I was surprised to hear Meghan referred to as a black women. People seem to have the impression Fox is my hero. I don't particularly like the guy, he comes across as a bit arrogant and he's got so little to do with his life he's started a party to point out opinions that are really more suited to a bit of debate over a few pints down the local. It's weird.
 

Rado_N

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He's frustrated?! I keep hearing the argument about using "Logic" as if it only applies to the person who usually wants to maintain the status quo because they've been able to think about it from a less emotional perspective. I've got a friend who always goes on about how he uses "logical thinking" as if the person he's debating with doesn't. Not only does it come across as condescending but it also means that the person has a high opinion of themselves. That in itself is frustrating because already you're debating with someone who thinks your stance is less enlightened than their own.

Conversation would be good. Why don't we start by listening to people who have had their stories silenced for generations first? Instead of playing the victim all the time because someone has the audacity to try and tell us their perspective. Instead of hearing the same perspective that has been told for countless years in our media and stories. Maybe less of the condescending attitudes about "logical thinking" as well would be a good start. Or is that too "woke"?

Why didn't we have this conversation before things in society hit fever pitch? Someone finally gets a chance to have their voice heard and suddenly people start clambering around saying "this is unfair because it doesn't involve me."

And with respect, but something that might be racist shouldn't need to reach some arbitrary high bar before we discuss it. If you set the bar too high then you're just waiting for things to ramp up and by that point it's already nigh impossible to change. Nip it in the bud before it becomes a big deal. And who determines what is high bar and what isn't? Two people can look at the coverage Meghan gets, one finds it racist and one doesn't. Who's right?
This is a great post, shame it was wasted on its intended audience.
 

Tarrou

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any debate as to whether the DM coverage is racist was surely ended when they did an article showing how she descended from cotton slaves

but Fox did retort with "we're a lovely country" so...
 

FlawlessThaw

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Apparently he now wants to cancel Sainsbury's as he thinks they are racist?

What happened to all that freedom of speech guff he is going on about or the whole cancel culture bollocks?

David Mitchell just wrote an article about the Reclaim Party and it seems confused at best:

Elsewhere, the party’s three key aims are expressed marginally more clearly as: to protect “freedoms of speech, expression, thought, association and academic inquiry”; “to reform publicly funded … institutions to ensure that they deliver on their primary purpose, free from political bias or agendas” (yes, he definitely means the BBC); and “to preserve and celebrate our shared national history, cultural inheritance and global contribution”.

The problem with these aims is that they completely contradict each other. The party says it wants freedom of speech but, by implication, Gary Lineker’s exercising of that freedom on social media shouldn’t be allowed because he’s employed by a public institution that should be “free from political bias”. When does the freedom to express yourself end and inappropriate “political bias” begin? Does anyone who takes a job with a publicly funded body forfeit freedom of expression?
It really seems as though he is for free speech when it suits..

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/04/hands-up-who-takes-laurence-fox-seriously
 

NinjaFletch

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Owning Sainsburys by doing exactly what Sainsburys told him to do.

Genius.
 

JPRouve

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This reply sums it up best

I made the same point about him, I didn't knew who he was a few months ago but since then I have discovered that he is a whiny little creature. How can you be an artist, someone that is routinely and arbitrarily judged at work and have such a thin skin. The other week he was crying on twitter about a friend deciding to not see him again, is he new to life?
 

esmufc07

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@Mockney summed it up well in the other Fox thread. Can add starting your own political party too.
You can’t say anything as a white man these days without being given a platform on Question Time, a huge spread in a national newspaper, invited onto all the prominent talk radio shows and podcasts, the Prime Minister of the country, his right wing majority government, all the tabloids and pretty much anyone with any actual power agreeing with you and sparking a national conversation just by crassly wading into a discussion you’ve no real knowledge of with your lazy opinion. And they say we’re “privileged!!” It’s political correctness gone mad.