Leeds (dirty thugs) discussion

[giorno]

Bielsa would never have the same consistency in Serie A or at Atalanta like Gasperini. And to think just because if he had the chance to coach United with better players automatically would make them title contenders is just laughable. It’s the same thing as saying Zeman coaching Atalanta would make them a Champions League team. Entertaining yes? Reliable? Nope.

He did well enough with Bilbao and OM. Gasperini i think is actually a bit more sophisticated in possession, and a bit less gung-ho on defence, and his fitness coach is a damn wizard. But for the most part, Gasperini did well when he had Milito and Thiago Motta, then again when he had Caldara, Spinazzola, Kessie and Papu, then added Ilicic and Duvan, etc...

And i didn't say united would be title contenders if they switched to a man marking defensive system, i said they might get better, because they actually have the players for it, and their defensive struggles seem to me mostly come down to being too rigid in zonal marking, and they don't read the play well

 

[Bastian]

He also set the foundation (it's an expression that is used so often that it almost lost its meaning, but it's more than appropriate in that case) for Chile's incredible international dominance in the 2010's. Sampaoli used Bielsa's tactics & general approach, made a few compromises (something that Bielsa himself is, sadly , unable to do) and won them 2 Copas.

Absolutely. And you can say that about players too. Imagine if he'd have been the first to take over from SAF, even if only for two years, he teaches players to take responsibility and there can be no passengers in his teams. He makes players better, and teams better, yes it's super risky, but ultimately, from a much wider perspective, it's art.

It’s admirable that they are going to stay up playing such great football. However, Leeds fans won’t forgive him if he gets spanked by United again and if they aren’t going to change their style for the United games then we absolutely will spank them again. They’re the perfect opponent to our style.

Given how much they adore him, I can't say they'd be in a rush to replace him with the most recently out of work jobs-for-the-boys lad. To have acquired him in the Championship is phenomenal. What would they be without him? I very much doubt a Premier League club.

 

[SCP]

He did well enough with Bilbao and OM. Gasperini i think is actually a bit more sophisticated in possession, and a bit less gung-ho on defence, and his fitness coach is a damn wizard. But for the most part, Gasperini did well when he had Milito and Thiago Motta, then again when he had Caldara, Spinazzola, Kessie and Papu, then added Ilicic and Duvan, etc...

And i didn't say united would be title contenders if they switched to a man marking defensive system, i said they might get better, because they actually have the players for it, and their defensive struggles seem to me mostly come down to being too rigid in zonal marking, and they don't read the play well

Fair enough. Some valid points.

 

[harms]

Absolutely. And you can say that about players too. Imagine if he'd have been the first to take over from SAF, even if only for two years, he teaches players to take responsibility and there can be no passengers in his teams. He makes players better, and teams better, yes it's super risky, but ultimately, from a much wider perspective, it's art.

This is why I wasn’t as disappointed as most were with Van Gaal during his tenure — even though he wasn’t able to achieve success at that point of his career, I really hoped that he’d set the foundation (control, short passing, playing out of the back, pressing) that a more modern manager would build upon. And we’ve signed Mourinho, who wasn’t awful, but he had destroyed everything that van Gaal was building for years*.

Looks unlikely at this point, but I really would’ve liked to see him manage a top club with a proper backing.

*By the way, it’s not on Mou, but on Woodward, obviously.

 

[Foxbatt]

Give Bielsa better quality players and he wouldn't lose like that. I mean his number one striker is Bamford. No one has heard of any Leeds player before they got promoted to the PL. Are there any regular International players in the Leeds side? I do not think there are many.

 

[Bastian]

This is why I wasn’t as disappointed as most were with Van Gaal during his tenure — even though he wasn’t able to achieve success at that point of his career, I really hoped that he’d set the foundation (control, short passing, playing out of the back, pressing) that a more modern manager would build upon. And we’ve signed Mourinho, who wasn’t awful, but he had destroyed everything that van Gaal was building for years*.

Looks unlikely at this point, but I really would’ve liked to see him manage a top club with a proper backing.

*By the way, it’s not on Mou, but on Woodward, obviously.

I'm with you in theory, but to much lesser extend in praxis when it comes to LVG. For his "education" two seasons weren't near enough. He's a long-term project in my view, and as such, making so many changes (sales and purchases) during his brief tenure wasn't ideal. Whereas, for someone like Jose, I think getting rid of many and buying many has proven to work, he's an immediate impact manager. As you say, the hierarchy was all over the place (and still is) and bears the ultimate responsibility, but I've not really seen any evidence of players improving as a result of LVG's tenure.

I did enjoy him as a character though. Imagine if that had been Bielsa..that would have been an education proper.

 

[VorZakone]

Give Bielsa better quality players and he wouldn't lose like that. I mean his number one striker is Bamford. No one has heard of any Leeds player before they got promoted to the PL. Are there any regular International players in the Leeds side? I do not think there are many.

I heard of Klich, Philips, Harrison and Bamford.

 

[Champ]

you’ve said it in your post. Because they attack all the time. Everyone knows they can’t defend, which is why they have some terrific games.

it’s not praising Bielsa for being a great manager, but for doing it differently.

Which is fair enough, and I can't say anything against that as it's a good point to make.

 

[Samid]

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[Rooney in Paris]

Very true.

But it's also true that we had people on here claiming we'd get spanked by Leeds - because Bielsa is a genius and Ole is a PE teacher.

Most people on here are idiots though and there's a massive portion of them who want to see Ole fail.

I think it's reasonable to rely more on the opinions of pretty much anybody who has been involved in the sport and who have massive respect for what this guy has done throughout his career.

 

[Foxbatt]

He is a genius in what he does. He does not compromise on his principles and that is why his teams get spanked. Give him quality players and he will won more than lose and while being very entertaining. There is a link to one of his lecturers somewhere here. It is very enlightening to see it.

 

[nuanced]

These type of managers achieve greatness by inspiring others. Managers like Bielsa and Jorge Jesus and to some extent Vitor Pereira are a dying breed of setting a philosophy of playing at all costs, even if things are starting to sink.

And most of the players who were managed by one of these I mentioned always say they were the managers who got the best out of them and made them the players they are today.
Titles wise they will all retire with an underwhelming CV, but pretty sure they probably left a very decent heritage in the way they influenced the game.

I'd also add Zdenek Zeman to this list. Not sure what he's is up to nowadays. But his team's were also great fun to watch, although a lot less pragmatic than Bielsa I feel. I feel this is what a lot of people here think about Bielsa's tactics, when they call him a hipster.

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

Thanks for the sarcasm but I think it is confirmed by the fact that he changed the 2 players marking Bruno and Scott, because he was not happy with their defensive performance. So having better players there, would help him, system or not.

I do think better players would help him, but there is a limit imo. The better players are, the harder it is to get them to buy into a system like that which risks complete personal burnout and fatigue.

 

[nuanced]

Absolutely. And you can say that about players too. Imagine if he'd have been the first to take over from SAF, even if only for two years, he teaches players to take responsibility and there can be no passengers in his teams. He makes players better, and teams better, yes it's super risky, but ultimately, from a much wider perspective, it's art.



Given how much they adore him, I can't say they'd be in a rush to replace him with the most recently out of work jobs-for-the-boys lad. To have acquired him in the Championship is phenomenal. What would they be without him? I very much doubt a Premier League club.

Quite literally

https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/marcelo...ake-players-appreciate-fans-commitment-193365

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The praise he got for getting hammered 6-2 is staggering.

 

[city-puma]

His philosophy is admirable for me. I think most people will honestly respect a person like him just because he insists on what he believes and is fearless to do it, like Steve Jobs.
I didn’t know any of Leeds players until watching several of their games. I has immediately spotted several really good players, Raphinha, Bamford, and Harrison. And then, find out Harrison was in manutd academy as kid and moved to US and played for New York City FC!
I think we should consider to buy Raphinha. He will really suite our system I feel.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

I heard of Klich, Philips, Harrison and Bamford.

Because of FIFA or FM? I've known Bamford, Harrison and Philips because of it.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

The praise he got for getting hammered 6-2 is staggering.

montypythonblackknight.gif

 

[Stack]

The praise he got for getting hammered 6-2 is staggering.

Sometimes you have to look past a scoreline and see a bigger picture.

 

[Himannv]

Aside from his tactics, I'm really impressed by his ability to squat for 90 minutes.

 

[Himannv]

The praise he got for getting hammered 6-2 is staggering.

You have to admire the fact that even at 4-0 down it was just business as usual and they played the same way. Just shows the kind of belief they have in the manager's tactics. I also think our players were exhausted by the end of it - they don't give you much time to rest.

Sure, his team lost and they'll always concede. However, there'll be days when they blow teams apart as well. Once they get more quality in some of the positions they'll put more teams to the sword.

 

[adexkola]

The praise he got for getting hammered 6-2 is staggering.

Why does it grate so many fans? I've seen bigger clubs get praise for shit housing their way to a narrow loss. For once can we praise someone who contributed to a great spectacle? It's not like he's doing badly in the league.

 

[duffer]

You have to admire the fact that even at 4-0 down it was just business as usual and they played the same way. Just shows the kind of belief they have in the manager's tactics. I also think our players were exhausted by the end of it - they don't give you much time to rest.

The lack of a plan B is not really that admirable of a quality in a manager.

He's a fun addition to the league for sure though, a Kevin Keegan regen.

 

[Himannv]

The lack of a plan B is not really that admirable of a quality in a manager.

Sure. However, I'd argue that it's hard to actually have a plan B with those sort of tactics ingrained into your playing style. I mean, suddenly starting to play with a zonal defense or something halfway through the game is just not going to happen, especially if you've trained for a different sort of tactic entirely.

What I think he can do is make some tweaks to how they position themselves without the ball in the middle of the park or simply upgrade the personnel - but it'll be hard to call that a plan B and I see it as simply improving plan A.

 

[adexkola]

The lack of a plan B is not really that admirable of a quality in a manager.

He's a fun addition to the league for sure though, a Kevin Keegan regen.

Most Plan Bs are small tweaks of a Plan A. You're best off working on making your plan A damned near impossible to beat, instead of trying to switch from Tiki Taka to brexit 'ave it route 1 football

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

The media love in for this guy is like nothing else I’ve seen before in football! And that’s accounting for Klopp’s LFC. They’re doing well enough but hardly taking the league by storm. Ok, they play some nice expansive football at times. However, surely the best managers/coaches analyse the opposition and set up in a way to best nullify them and win the game for their team? Is he not capable of that or are we allowed to even ask? Their defensive record is atrocious, no?

Sky Sports and TalkSPORT literally can’t get their tongues out of his arse whatever the result..... lose 6 to one of your biggest rivals yet Bielsa is the hero!

 

[adexkola]

Ok, they play some nice expansive football at times.

Yes let's celebrate that.

In a league full of Dyches and Allardyces and Peps... Let's celebrate one saying "feck all the pragmatic bullshit"

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Sometimes you have to look past a scoreline and see a bigger picture.

True. The bigger picture is that it could have been 15 goals against.

 

[André Dominguez]

I'd also add Zdenek Zeman to this list. Not sure what he's is up to nowadays. But his team's were also great fun to watch, although a lot less pragmatic than Bielsa I feel. I feel this is what a lot of people here think about Bielsa's tactics, when they call him a hipster.

Totally agree. Zemaan was one of the main reasons why 4x3x3 became such a huge thing on modern football.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Why does it grate so many fans? I've seen bigger clubs get praise for shit housing their way to a narrow loss. For once can we praise someone who contributed to a great spectacle? It's not like he's doing badly in the league.

Attacking football is good. We all like it and should encourage it but it appears that people have deitified Bielsa to the point where he's immune for criticism. Despite getting slaughtered at the ground of their biggest rival, everyone's like "fair play Bielsa, what a coach, never change your ways", which is laughable. Yes stick by your general philosophy by all means but if you're team gets torn a new one then you have to get criticised for your set up and the way your team played. Attacking set up or not, Leeds were appalling off the ball the other day and any manager that allows opponents to be so comfortably attacking them that they should have scored 12-15 goals should not escape serious cricism. But he somehow does.

You can acknowledge and admire attacking football but still hold a manger accountable for allowing such a hiding to occur - and yes tactically too, he isn't some perfect genius everyone believes. Excellent tactician but it's hardly as though he can't feck up.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Sure. However, I'd argue that it's hard to actually have a plan B with those sort of tactics ingrained into your playing style. I mean, suddenly starting to play with a zonal defense or something halfway through the game is just not going to happen, especially if you've trained for a different sort of tactic entirely.

What I think he can do is make some tweaks to how they position themselves without the ball in the middle of the park or simply upgrade the personnel - but it'll be hard to call that a plan B and I see it as simply improving plan A.

You're right that when a team is focused on implementing a plan A to such a tee they need to emphasise on making that stronger. But defending terribly and applying sub standard pressure in midfield is not part of anyone's plan A. If it is, then the plan A is fecked. The point is that it's a managers job to ensure his plan A doesn't result in such a mess that the defense is constantly exposed.

I mean I've never seen us walk through a team that easily since even before SAFs early days. For all of Leeds pressure you always felt that we could tune it up and score again and again if we applied ourselves.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

In addition to the point I made earlier about their style being more successful at the cost of getting hammered every now and then, it seems to me people are totally forgetting the calibre of players Bielsa is working with. He took over when Leeds had been finishing in the bottom half of the Championship consistently and turned them into the best team in the division by far (best defensive and attacking metrics) on a mid-table budget. There are just no grounds to criticise them whatsoever.

 

[Stack]

True. The bigger picture is that it could have been 15 goals against.

Nope, you are still looking at the cartoon pages. Try the big peoples section

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Nope, you are still looking at the cartoon pages. Try the big peoples section

That's true. I am reading your post right now.

 

[Stack]

That's true. I am reading your post right now.

77,000 and counting posts and still getting everything wrong.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

The media love in for this guy is like nothing else I’ve seen before in football! And that’s accounting for Klopp’s LFC. They’re doing well enough but hardly taking the league by storm. Ok, they play some nice expansive football at times. However, surely the best managers/coaches analyse the opposition and set up in a way to best nullify them and win the game for their team? Is he not capable of that or are we allowed to even ask? Their defensive record is atrocious, no?

Sky Sports and TalkSPORT literally can’t get their tongues out of his arse whatever the result..... lose 6 to one of your biggest rivals yet Bielsa is the hero!

For once the media are right in loving someone as significant as him. We should salute it more than anything else.

 

[Stack]

Why does it grate so many fans? I've seen bigger clubs get praise for shit housing their way to a narrow loss. For once can we praise someone who contributed to a great spectacle? It's not like he's doing badly in the league.

Some people are so caught up in the mechanics that they cant see the artistry. They miss the context and only see the primary colours and completely miss the varying shades and hues. Its a shame really because so much just goes whoosh right over their heads.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

77,000 and counting posts and still getting everything wrong.

Useless post

Some people are so caught up in the mechanics that they cant see the artistry. They miss the context and only see the primary colours and completely miss the varying shades and hues. Its a shame really because so much just goes whoosh right over their heads.

Everyone can see it you pretend insight hipster. It's possibly to not be a one note person who can acknowledge the tactical ability of a manager (clearly evident with Bielsa) and also hold him accountable for getting hammered (also Bielsa if it wasn't clear). All in all, he's done a brilliant job at Leeds but should be getting his team to be more solid /wank defensively in such games.

 

[adexkola]

Ah boy what have I caused

 

[Freak]

Leeds remind me of when we used to play football in school. Run around like feck, screw the defence and and just attack. So very naive at this level. It is entertaining though, almost like playing some video game with all out attack turned on.

If I remember correctly, the commentator mentioned Leeds now have the worst defence in premier league history in terms of goals conceded after this number of games. Not exactly something to be proud of to be honest. But Bielsa I guess.