And we have some of the best football people too. I mean who do you think know football better than the likes of SAF?The trouble with your two main ideas, dev, is that those football people (that we should appoint) who know the club are likely to be the very same senior figures with their own agendas. And that's before we even consider them on merit in a professional sense.
Say no moh!The manager needs to respeck the club and its fans.
This, basically the biggest mistake in sporting history.First and foremost the biggest mistake was appointing Dave fecking Moyes in the first place. The greatest manager in the history of the game retires from the biggest club in the world, and what do we do? Give the job to the mighty honorable loser Moyesey who have won absolutely feck all in charge of the world beaters Everton.
Everything that happened after that doesn't even compare to that shambles. Criminal mistake and anyone who was behind that failed us miserably.
Don't expect more than 50% of incoming transfers to be a success and even some of those that eventually turn into successes, may struggle in the first year. The work by Paul Tomkins in Pay As You Play shows this, and we experienced it with LVG's transfers; tons of excitement when deals were announced, by the end of the season very few clear successes. Related point, away games at unfashionable sides are high risk of dropping points if side is packed with players in their first season in the PL.What else should we have learned from the past three years?
Romance and history does have a relevance and thats what LVG got wrong. He didnt understand that for many of us having a team that is exciting to watch is important. Has been for the 45 or more years I have followed Utd anyway. The anti romance crew think in black and white when there are multiple layers of grey in there as well. Thinking long term is vital. Its like sex. A quickie is only fun every now and then and for the shallow of character and heart.Lesson from LvG:
Don't let the romance and history talk fool you. This is not 1986. Manchester United is no different to any other big club. Thinking long term when building your team is suicide. Result is the only thing that matters. So when you're faced with a choice between Pedro or save the money for the future, always choose Pedro.
Fortunately for Mourinho, he's already mastered this lesson.
Care to elaborate? He had 2 years and none of the players bought into the philosophy. He couldn't use 90% of his own signings. Players he had previously worked with (RVP, Bastian, Memphis) were pretty shite or underwhelming. Blind has been decent. we were 1st in the league for passing backwards, 2nd for possession, 3rd for passing sideways. We averaged 58% possession, yet were 16th in the league for total shots, 18th in the league for chances created. there are only 20 teams, including newly promoted sides and crap teams like Newcastle, Sunderland and Villa. We went 10 games without a 1st half goal at home. What was he onto again?For me, the biggest mistake was the hiring of Moyes. He was riding on the high as it was the last team left by SAF. Same as Everton with Martinez. He didn't say the right thing (aspire to be City? BIG NO NO). Left the team sinking rapidly, senior players left and almost left in ruins.
LvG, despite the poor results, and certain failures to get into UCL, he saved the team from a complete breakdown, ship out the deadwoods, and brought in big names to the team. The team played with decent possession football and has Fellaini working as a decent footballer. Not the best thing in the world at the moment but it was much much worse towards the end of Moyes' reign. I am grateful for LvG, and I believe he was onto something great compared to Moyes.
Don't play 2 holding midfielders vs teams in the bottom 6 at home. It limits our attacking potentialDon't expect more than 50% of incoming transfers to be a success and even some of those that eventually turn into successes, may struggle in the first year. The work by Paul Tomkins in Pay As You Play shows this, and we experienced it with LVG's transfers; tons of excitement when deals were announced, by the end of the season very few clear successes. Related point, away games at unfashionable sides are high risk of dropping points if side is packed with players in their first season in the PL.
Select team on merit rather than reputation. Both Moyes and LVG continued to select under-performing stars for lengthy spells, while being happy to drop squad players despite generally good performances.
Squad rotation under Moyes and LVG has been poorly handled. Don't use first team starters in the League Cup. Don't select the same side over the Christmas period. Don't use the same team away in Europe midweek then away in the PL at the weekend. Players aged 30+ will typically perform poorly if asked to play on sunday, having played 90 mins on wednesday.
We sold ruud because he and ronaldo did not see eye to eye. The rest is history.We have to be careful about selling Rooney. In my mind it was us selling Becks that set Ruud off. It can have a destabilizing effect. We see the conflicting reports regarding Carrick but then you have Shaw coming out and saying what a positive influence he is. So we have to be careful what we wish for. I think we need to help Rooney become a better midfielder. If we sold him then I think it would not only demoralize the players but let's also not forget what Keane said when we sold Jaap. The dressing room dynamic is important. I think that's why Jose might want to keep Carrick and certainly Rooney. As a big club we can keep most of our players and I think some clubs don't have that. Many people would not be happy him being denied the opportunity to be the clubs leading scorer.
I think we also have to get the players expressing themselves. Against Bournemouth, it was a tale of two halves. The first was poor but when we injected pace we scored. Second half much better and some of the passes we were attempting - some scoops in the box - where things we had not done all season. So I think we need to get these players expressing themselves because they are playing within themselves. I also hope that Jose corrects our belief because when Sir Alex retired we took a step back and other clubs took 5 steps forward. Most of our problems are in our head. You have to know you are better and respect is fine but too much and you become someones bitch.
What about Di Maria and Falcao?Only Martial was signed on deadline, with all other transfers happening quite early. Ironically, Martial was the best signing he made.
Indeed.First and foremost the biggest mistake was appointing Dave fecking Moyes in the first place. The greatest manager in the history of the game retires from the biggest club in the world, and what do we do? Give the job to the mighty honorable loser Moyesey who have won absolutely feck all in charge of the world beaters Everton.
Didn't we score 3 against Newcastle away?I may get a lot of stick for this, but I think we've learnt that a 4-2-3-1 formation doesn't suit the way many of us want to see us play. Its obvious we use it to protect a weak back four but when we are struggling to score against a poor poor Newcastle team, it shows we need more men up front.
I think you're on to something there but it's a bit more complicated. I think we lack something vital in terms of leadership in the dressing room. In Moyes time we had Rio's influence with all the daft "chips" nonsense. Carrick and Rooney had to go to LVG and point out that criticising individual players in front of the other players was counter-productive. It's been a mess. In our best days we had an undisputed leader in SAF managing and undisputed leaders in Robson/Keane in the dressing room and on the pitch. Lately we've seen childish behaviour become endemic without anyone strong and mature enough to get the squad to "man up". I don't think either Moyes or LVG would have been a roaring success even if they had such a leader in the squad but it would definitely have improved their chances. I'm sick of seeing footage of our team's behaviour on the coach outside Upton Park, of seeing noone react when Nolan literally picked Herrera up and carried him off the pitch (ffs!)... It's been weak as... well, very weak. That's the problem. No balls.Player power and leaks are an issue. Moyes lost the dressing room because he was too soft, Van Gaal lost it because he was too harsh. Fergie struck the perfect balance and I hope this is something Mourinho can replicate.
At least Moysey can say... you know what you are getting -- consistency!Indeed.
We hired a 7th place manager and he turned us into a 7th place team.
He performed for MUFC exactly as he had performed for Everton. I think our points total was almost exactly the same, as what he achieved for Everton.
Why not appoint Giggs to the board?What can I say? For 20 years+ we had a genius who overprotected the board by staying loyal, by covering for the constant brain farts (how many times we've heard the 'I am happy with the squad' jibe?) and yet keep on winning. That came with a price as SAF grew more and more powerful with each passing year, turning the managerial role into an almost untouchable role. You only have to have a look at our executive board. All of them are non football people who have no idea about football. That contrasts greatly with clubs like Juventus who have Nedved and Marotta on the board. If there's a lesson to be learnt is that our board needs help on that regard is that there is the need of someone who knows about football who sits on the board, preferably one who knows the club well and another one whose outside the club and can give a non biased view to contrast the former view if needed.
Another lesson that needs to be learnt is that just because a person IS 100% loyal to the club that doesn't mean that he doesn't have an agenda which may or may not be in line to the club's success. Moyes for example was SAF's idea. The plan was for SAF to retain a level of control through guidance, which would, in theory, bring a level of consistency into the club. That didn't pan out well because Moyes proved to be his own man and also because the club needed change. I believe that throughout the years we had mellowed too much and placed the senior player's interests ahead of those of the club. That had backfired greatly both in Moyes and LVG administration as performances plummeted as we kept playing players who weren't good on a consistent level anymore. Dont take me wrong but some of the criticism thrown (he didn't allow us to eat crips or the manager was too critical during the team meeting and caused some players to cry etc) borders to the ridiculous. If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen. That's another lesson that needs to be learnt
Its time we focus entirely on one aim ie to bring this club back on its feet. That aim should be dominant irrespective of how painful and devious it may be to achieve it. Its really the United way. After all SAF used to say that no one is bigger then the club.
To be fair, Steve, sitting on the board of directors of a football club requires one of two things; business acumen or football knowledge. Ex-players are great candidates as are experienced business types. A mix of the two is good. The players can always educate themselves about business to achieve a rudimentary understanding but I don't think the football side is so easily understood.The trouble with your two main ideas, dev, is that those football people (that we should appoint) who know the club are likely to be the very same senior figures with their own agendas. And that's before we even consider them on merit in a professional sense.
This is a big one.The biggest lesson is that United badly need a Director of Football that can craft an overall footballing vision, one that remains consistent from manager to manager.
This is also a good one, though I can't see Jose moving away from his 4-2-3-1 sadly.I may get a lot of stick for this, but I think we've learnt that a 4-2-3-1 formation doesn't suit the way many of us want to see us play. Its obvious we use it to protect a weak back four but when we are struggling to score against a poor poor Newcastle team, it shows we need more men up front.
I can't argue with any of that, chief, so instead I'll just write: 'gogsy needs da sak'.To be fair, Steve, sitting on the board of directors of a football club requires one of two things; business acumen or football knowledge. Ex-players are great candidates as are experienced business types. A mix of the two is good. The players can always educate themselves about business to achieve a rudimentary understanding but I don't think the football side is so easily understood.
I think its a great idea TBH especially once Charlton retires.Why not appoint Giggs to the board?
we scored 1 goalDidn't we score 3 against Newcastle away?
IMO you are not looking at this from the bigger picture. I see several issues:We've just watched two failed regimes in three years. Got to be some lessons we can learn from this. I'll get the ball rolling with three obvious ones.
1. Marginalise or sell Rooney. Ferguson did this in his final season by signing RvP and making him the main man upfront and he won the league. Both Moyes and Van Gaal went the opposite direction, they loved Rooney, made him their captain and tried to build the side around him. They both failed and I feel what Mourinho does with Rooney will be the single biggest factor in how well he does at United.
2. Quicker and more athletic players. United play in the fastest and most physically demanding league in the world. Moyes spent all his money on players who couldn't run (Mata and Fellaini) and give a physically declining Rooney a massive new contract. Van Gaal signed some good players in this regard but also brought in guys like Blind, Schweinsteiger, Darmian and relied on the three players I named from the Moyes era way more than he should have. We have simply been physically outmatched time after time post-Ferguson and one of the major pluses I can see for Mourinho is that this doesn't happen to his teams.
3. End the Giggs madness. Being a good player shouldn't automatically mean you become a coach at one of the biggest teams in the world. When the regime you are a coach in fails you shouldn't then get promoted to assistant manager and be lined up for the main job itself. When that regime fails as well... just learn from your mistakes...
What else should we have learned from the past three years?
