A copy of Roy Keane's autobiography with special added content "tough leadership"
Lessons from the Moyes and Van Gaal failures
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
I agree with everything you are saying, the point I made above was more based on the fact that based on what I have seen this year, the press would con our fans into a frenzy at the first signs of trouble.Why would we 'imagine' what Keane is like like with a top class professional like Ronaldo? You do know Ronaldo played for over two seasons under Keane's captaincy? So let's use a real life example...
Keane on Ronaldo: -
“I liked Ronaldo straight away. He had a nice presence about him and a good attitude.
“After watching him train for a few days I thought: 'This lad is going to be one of the best players in the world.'
“He was immediately one of the hardest working players at United.
“Of course, yeah. Obviously different players have different traits. How you speak to them, who you shout at, who you don't. I didn't shout at Ronaldo that much. I didn't have to.”
Ronaldo on Keane: -
“I had a good relationship with Keane. I was very pleased that a great player with a big name in football told the manager to sign me.”
Cristiano Ronaldo has credited his former captain Roy Keane with helping him develop when he was a young player at Manchester United.
The Real Madrid superstar revealed that Keane would always yell at him to 'pass the ball' during the time the pair were together at Old Trafford, while also saying former manager Sir Alex Ferguson was pivotal in his footballing education.
“[Keane was] always screaming to me: "Cristiano! Pass the ball!" But it was good! At the end of the day, I feel happy because I learned a lot from them.”
Good times: -
And more recently, proving their good relationship has lasted the test of time: -
So to me, it is a complete nonsense to say that Keane cannot get on with top class or Galactico players. He captained and motivated a team full of them for 7 years. Judging by the evidence, Keane has proven he can work very well with the top talents that are going to make it at United.
Incidentally, here is Ronaldo's perception of Ferguson's anger: -
Ronaldo has explained what tended to happen when Fergie flew into a rage – and revealed that the Scot, on at least one occasion, said 'F*** you' to him for failing to pass the ball.
“I remember sometimes when we do something bad or we lost some games he kicked the chairs and he kicked the boots, he kicked everything, the waters, the drinks.”
“And he's so red and, 'F*** you, you should pass the ball, you...' it was unbelievable but it was good – because we learn.”
Yet Ronaldo still holds Ferguson in high regard. The point is that Ferguson could be equally as vitriolic as Keane ever could. To me it showcases another similarity between the management style of Keane and Ferguson, and that it actually nurtured arguably the world's greatest player.
I think (just as people have with Mourinho) the press create lazy stereotypes about a character and then before long they are accepted as fact so "Keane can't manage top players" etc...just seems to become indisputable
I would not be upset if Keane were appointed but can't see it ever happening now
You ha
You've made the same school boy error as the original poster. Keane left United in 2005 when Ronaldo was 18. 18 year old Cristiano compared to a 31 year old Cristiano is like a completely different person. Cristiano called out some of his young team-mates claiming if everyone was as good as me blah blah blah. he is an arrogant prick nowadays (he's my arrogant prick) and is a far cry from the impressionable youngster who was eager to learn from the United legends. Having overseen the emergence of Scholes, Becks and co, you would think Keane would be decent with young players who "want it" so to speak as he has proven in the past. But again we are talking about being a captain, not a manager whilst comparing his treatment of a hungry 18 year old who worked hard on the pitch, to an arrogant, selfish primadonna who cares more about his personal achievements than his team-mates. Its like night and day
1. The idea of transition for a behemoth club our size was only going to propagate failure. Transition is an easy excuse for bad management at all levels. League finishes of 3-3-3 would have been seen as a failure, never mind 7-4-5.
2. Moyes wasn't a winner. Van Gaal was an outdated winner who hadn't managed in the Premier League. Had we been cut-throat then both reigns would not have lasted as long as they did. The Moyes appointment was overly romantic. The van Gaal appointment was overly horny.
3. It seems like the lesson has been learnt with the appointment of Mourinho but there should still be anger at 3 years of incompetence at all levels of the club, maybe more so than there is.
2. Moyes wasn't a winner. Van Gaal was an outdated winner who hadn't managed in the Premier League. Had we been cut-throat then both reigns would not have lasted as long as they did. The Moyes appointment was overly romantic. The van Gaal appointment was overly horny.
3. It seems like the lesson has been learnt with the appointment of Mourinho but there should still be anger at 3 years of incompetence at all levels of the club, maybe more so than there is.
shit
I think you hit the nail on the head about how the media operate, the way the press con people, lazy stereotypes, etc. It is one of life's facts that negative and sensationalist stories will sell more papers (or attract more clicks, as it is today) than the positive. It is frequently seen that media outlets will misrepresent events and fabricate headlines to that end.
Keane by his nature was an easy target and it has dogged him throughout his career – from his first red card at United to the present day.
For one example of many, Keane was doing his punditry bit for ITV last season, PSG vs Man City. Does anyone remember the comedy goal Ibrahimovic scored after the awful sequence from Hart and Fernando? Haha, pretty fecking funny as a United supporter, it still gives me a smile.
Anyway, Keane gave his analysis after the game. He criticised the all round defending on display and questioned Hart's distribution for that goal, before praising City for their two away goals. Keane delivered it in a way that was calm, measured, fair and honest...
If it had been anyone else it wouldn't have been news at all. But it wasn't, it was Roy Keane. So the next morning we get this type of journalistic nonsense as the intro and headlines: -
Roy Keane offers a brutal assessment...
Roy Keane lashed out...
Keane offered typically damning summation...
Roy Keane criticises Joe Hart...
Unsurprisingly, Keane was outraged...
Keane also hit out at...
Roy Keane lashed out...
Keane offered typically damning summation...
Roy Keane criticises Joe Hart...
Unsurprisingly, Keane was outraged...
Keane also hit out at...
Because that's what the media formed caricature of Keane does, isn't it? He's brutal and critical, he hits and lashes out, he's damning and outraged. Well what a lot of nonsense – I set out above how Keane actually delivered his analysis. Much less than outraged and all the rest of it, I don't think Keane could personally care less about PSG or City.
I could go on and on with the various media 'stories' that have surrounded him – from alleged 'fallouts' with supporters to the supposed 'grudge' with Ferguson - it's the same format each time and it's doing our club legend a disservice. For me I think, why do United supporters of all people buy into the perpetuation of this rubbish? Why do we allow it to affect our assessments of the most successful captain in United's history? Personally I would like to see United supporters defend Keane against that crap (can you tell?) and put the record straight.
I'm not saying Keane is an angel, no more than Ferguson or Mourinho (the big difference being the latter two are more shielded from negative press by the managerial success they have been afforded). But if we decipher what is true and what is not, understand events in perspective, contrast his behaviour with that of others, look at what Keane actually says and what others actually say about him, then I believe it shows the man in an altogether different light.
I see what you are saying Lentwood, but should we allow the media to dictate suitable candidate's for United manager? Not in my book – I'd rather throw the journalists responsible under Mourinho's new bus first.
What does Keane need to do to change perceptions? Since his time at Ipswich I have noticed a greater self-awareness from Keane and think he has made an effort to reign in his more controversial side. That is noted from the positive references he has received, his interviews and punditry work. What we are seeing now is a more mature, calmer and measured Keane – age and experience will do that. All he needs to do is keep on that track and with further success, either with the Republic of Ireland or a club, it will turn around.
Then there will be no barrier to reap all of the Ferguson-esque qualities Keane possesses, return the United way, our style of football and with that, our greatest glory days. I really think we are missing a trick and even shooting ourselves in the foot. I would like to see United back to what it was, and as I hope my previous posts have shown, no one epitomised that, or is better equipped to do it, than Roy Keane.
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@Stacks, thank you for all of your input. I think perhaps, with your mentions of prima donna's, we have a different idea of what United is about. Ferguson wouldn't stand for such, and I think you are right, neither would Keane. That's not a bad thing in my book.
I also take onboard your other points. Some I think have already been addressed, whilst there are a huge amount of further facts and arguments that could be made in response, but I don't mean to turn this into a Roy Keane discussion thread – I will save that for another time. Hopefully you will get involved then because opposing viewpoints help to drive the discussion.
Thanks again, respect your opinion, agree to disagree for now.
I also take onboard your other points. Some I think have already been addressed, whilst there are a huge amount of further facts and arguments that could be made in response, but I don't mean to turn this into a Roy Keane discussion thread – I will save that for another time. Hopefully you will get involved then because opposing viewpoints help to drive the discussion.
Thanks again, respect your opinion, agree to disagree for now.
@gav81 you're asking to get abused by the many on here who don't like Keane and others who are panic stricken in the face of a hat-trick of lean years without entertainment. If things were different I'd have loved to have Keane manage us, I think he'd be a fantastic manager for a club like ours.
Thank you for your courtesy and you should make it a thread perhaps?
Unfortunately I'm not quite to Full Member status which would allow me to create threads.
From a separate discussion on Keane, I did have some interest and assistance from another poster who agreed to start the thread. It went down like a lead balloon with one of the Moderators, who changed the title and locked it before I even had a chance to post: -
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/newbie-channeling-nonsense-nothing-to-see-here.418046/
I don't need to say what I think about that call, though perhaps it's down to me for jumping the gun. I thought it would have been an acceptable thread with the agreement of a Full Member but evidently not.
I think the best way forward is to perhaps wait until the Jose euphoria declines a little and hopefully soon I will be able to create the thread and get it off to a good start. It's a long summer break and transfer rumours can only go so far so I'm sure we can fit it in somewhere.
Thanks and keep a lookout for it if you are still interested in the discussion at that time.
Don't sit around like idiots while they burn the house down.
Moyes and Van Gaal both should've been sacked at Christmas in their 1st and 2nd seasons respectively.
Moyes and Van Gaal both should've been sacked at Christmas in their 1st and 2nd seasons respectively.
To be fair, it's hard to be impressed about the standards Keane wants when it's called high standards by Paul mcshane and Alan Hutton
Unfortunately, if Jose starts well, you won't have anyone willing to cooperate in discussions of Keano as a potential Man Utd manager as Jose will be vindicated and quotes like "should've got him from the start" "we wasted 3 years messing about" "should of got him in December" "it takes a top guy like Jose to manage this big club" etc etc
The lessons from Moyes and van Gaal are appoint Giggs as your assistant manager at your peril.
See 'ya Ryan...
See 'ya Ryan...
we should be nicer to Ryan. I here good things about him to be fairThe lessons from Moyes and van Gaal are appoint Giggs as your assistant manager at your peril.
See 'ya Ryan...
Quiet Rhodri.
Rodri hates the man
That's true and I hope Jose does get off to a good start because that will mean United are storming it and we will all be happy. At the moment I feel Jose still has a lot to prove as to his suitability for United to many supporters who are concerned. Either way, I think there is room to discuss Keane if done in the right way. My plan on the thread that was locked was to launch with an intro along the lines of "Jose is our new manager and we all wish him well... Is Keane a potential United manager for the future?..." which would have removed any clash of interests or suggestion that we're talking about the 'here and now'. I never got the chance but I will do it the right way next time.
If you want to be a big club, you dont go and get your 5/6th choice manager which Moyes allegedly was, same with LVG I doubt he was first on our list
Pick good looking managers/ Fergie was handsome when he came to United. Mourinho has the hollywood.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...od-looks-will-get-you-job-promotion-and-raise
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...od-looks-will-get-you-job-promotion-and-raise
Board: Hire managers befitting of the club's status, or take a chance on someone ingrained in the club's culture. Take your ego with you into retirement and hire the best manager available regardless of whether he's too flamboyant.
Moyes: If you don't know a good tactic going into a big job, at least have the decency to do some research and try things out on FM. Being clueless and instructing players to cross the opponent to death isn't smart.
LVG: Players have positions in the real world. Play them in their best ones and they won't suck as much. Also if your philosophy bores everyone to death and isn't winning you games, you might want to consider trying something different.
Moyes: If you don't know a good tactic going into a big job, at least have the decency to do some research and try things out on FM. Being clueless and instructing players to cross the opponent to death isn't smart.
LVG: Players have positions in the real world. Play them in their best ones and they won't suck as much. Also if your philosophy bores everyone to death and isn't winning you games, you might want to consider trying something different.
I`m just pleased that Mourinho started his transfers straight away. I think he knew for several months that he will be the next manager and has a clear plan in his head who to sign. It is extremely important to start our season with most/all of our transfers completed.
I don't think we've learned all our lessons yet. In a couple of years we will have a much clearer view on what went wrong and what didn't.
I hope the regrets will be kept to a minimum.
I hope the regrets will be kept to a minimum.
We need to get better at scoring from set pieces. We scored a significant number of goals from set pieces (corners especially) in Fergie's last season. A lot of those goals were crucial (some of them match winning). Under both Moyes and van Gaal, our conversion rate has been pretty poor.
We scored under LvG against Chelsea I think from a corner where it was a last ditch goal by RvP
The first lesson is don't leave your accountant in charge of hiring managers and players. If it's naiive to assume giggs would automatically be a top coach then what is it assuming the guy from The Equaliser can double up as director of football? : )
One never won anything while the other won things many years ago. In short, its not really their fault. You can't bring a punto to le mans and blame the punto. We need to look inside.
The club was geared to enable Ferguson's success. An amazing amount was personality driven and not really transferable to anyone new.
The scouting system really came down to the eye of a trusted few. It mostly worked as Ferguson's eye for talent could veto most flops. Bebe is an overstated argument against how well it actually worked. Moyes came in and saw how outdated that system was and got to seriously revamping it.
The squad was assembled for what Ferguson wanted. As we saw, he got a ridiculous amount out of his teams. There were some great United players through his tenure, but his teams were far greater than the sum of their parts. When he left, those role players starting looking as average as they really were without Ferguson's touch. I don't think the squad needed the culling it eventually got, but it obvious it needed more quality to be highly competitive with less than a legendary manager.
I don't think the senior leadership ever really set the team or support systems up for anything other than Ferguson living and working forever. I can see why they operated that way to the end without the benefit of hindsight, but damn did it make for a steep drop.
So, you have this massive juggernaut painstakingly and gradually built around one of the biggest, most effective personalities in the history of the sport. Then what? You replace it with a man entirely out of his depth. Moyes did very well at Everton with what he had, but he was fundamentally unprepared to take on the role. The one chance he had at staving off disaster he tore down himself: the staff. It wouldn't have kept him from failure, but it was a bulkhead.
Nope, he picked his own staff to establish authority and control. He surrounded himself with men out of their depth as well. You couldn't better script an implosion.
Ferguson was always going to leave a void, but the workings/set up of the club, Moyes' appointment and his subsequent actions made that void far larger than it had to be.
The scouting system really came down to the eye of a trusted few. It mostly worked as Ferguson's eye for talent could veto most flops. Bebe is an overstated argument against how well it actually worked. Moyes came in and saw how outdated that system was and got to seriously revamping it.
The squad was assembled for what Ferguson wanted. As we saw, he got a ridiculous amount out of his teams. There were some great United players through his tenure, but his teams were far greater than the sum of their parts. When he left, those role players starting looking as average as they really were without Ferguson's touch. I don't think the squad needed the culling it eventually got, but it obvious it needed more quality to be highly competitive with less than a legendary manager.
I don't think the senior leadership ever really set the team or support systems up for anything other than Ferguson living and working forever. I can see why they operated that way to the end without the benefit of hindsight, but damn did it make for a steep drop.
So, you have this massive juggernaut painstakingly and gradually built around one of the biggest, most effective personalities in the history of the sport. Then what? You replace it with a man entirely out of his depth. Moyes did very well at Everton with what he had, but he was fundamentally unprepared to take on the role. The one chance he had at staving off disaster he tore down himself: the staff. It wouldn't have kept him from failure, but it was a bulkhead.
Nope, he picked his own staff to establish authority and control. He surrounded himself with men out of their depth as well. You couldn't better script an implosion.
Ferguson was always going to leave a void, but the workings/set up of the club, Moyes' appointment and his subsequent actions made that void far larger than it had to be.
The biggest mistake for me was allowing Moyes to fire all of Ferguson's staff. I honestly think Ferguson thought Moyes would come in and leave everything as is and carry on with the blueprint that had brought so much success.
I should wore my pyjamas when I was at Old Trafford during the Van Gaal days.... and my nightcap and my brought my teddy bear..