Let's get things in perspective (Post Palace and Luton)

jackal&hyde

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Side C - squad is decent (and can be great if they're in the right mood) and manager is decent.

Decent = just okay

Sorry but I don't think manager is good enough to turn this decent team into title deciding team. To be fair, he did his best so far but his weaknesses are clear and doesn't show any improvements as a manager. Our squad potential is huge but they're just not that motivated nor be in the best shape.

We had two great runs:
1. 18/19​
When he first takeover, caretaker months mainly, but arguably that's more to do with the "new manager" effect, huge positive atmosphere compare to the drowning negativities previously. Happier and more motivated players will yield greater performances as they seek to impress. Our squad at that time are that good with top quality players (Herrera, Lukaku <-- can't deny his scoring skills, Pogba attacking in 433) then we got rid of them later on. Get worse quickly, with poor end of the season.​
2. 19/20​
Early this year, with Bruno taking charge of on-field duties. Interestingly this dwindle down in latter months. This is more so the "new player" effects = new player are more likely to be motivated to perform and impress. James, AWB, Mag and Ighalo also the same thing, giving great performances the first few months after joining, then getting worse later months. Same with Williams. Only Greenwood seems to be keeping up his usual performance but then that's natural growth and he's not really yet a proven starter (Ole still bench him at times). Bruno's level is far ahead than the other, thus we had that great run.​

Other than that, our run of performances are so dreadful, it's embarrassing to call it a Manchester United team. None of that runs has more to do with Ole's skills, just his contrasting character and managerial approach to the first run being a key factor. He couldn't keep it up later on didn't he. There are no other great runs until Bruno came in. Motivations/mentality and getting the best out of players are questionable.

Fitness problem is a known problem manager highlighted and mentioned from the very start... so it still being a problem is really bs. Bad job. I love the fact that we're still giving the "poor fitness" excuse to Ole and the players for three seasons now. It's amazing. I remember many posters said it's a process for Ole to turn this team into a high fitness team in the first season 18/19... so we need more time eh... rubbish. Fitness problem is specially exclusive to our team, with other PL teams not having that problem.

18/19 - bad fitness, blame Jose for not training fitness enough, not enough running, many injuries.
19/20 - still many injuries.... let's blame C19 break and the hectic schedule for the poor fitness of best 11. Also add our squad players, 2nd option players are not good enough. Ole's ability in rotating and motivating are not the problem. Fitness is the main problem.
20/21 - no match fitness, players not getting enough rest. Poor fitness.

Reaching treble semi-finals is good I suppose with this team and manager, but then the squad is actually that strong but just like always, couldn't reach the finish line. Manager is okay... but should we be fine with just okay?

We can still win trophies with the same manager... but it depends on us to get another player of Bruno calibre then hopefully we have enough lucks and players self-motivated enough to win trophies.
If the squad is decent then I think we did well for this phase; finished 3ed with 4 semifinals was about the best you can expect when you have 2 other clubs at the pinnacle of their cycle. A bonus is getting some healthy wins against rivals.

There is no reason now to doubt Ole imo. unless you are Carl Anka and think you know better about football coaching and tactics then real managers do. If the team does not continue to progress though, things change.
 

tombombadil

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That's not true though and it's even more obvious for Liverpool. Before Klopp, they were in the business for the likes of Downing, Balotelli, Carroll, Benteke and other Sakhos. Liverpool are no different to United in terms of organization they were shoddy before Klopp and have some of the worst transfers of the decade, even under Klopp they have Naby Keita but I'm on a tangent. Liverpool have not had consistent types of players, similarly to us which is why Klopp cleared out their team.

The same applies to City, they used to have a scattergun approach and brought all sorts of players until Guardiola arrived.
That's not true. If I am not mistaken, Edwards was only promoted to technical director when Klopp took over from Brendan Rodgers. He was apparently liked because of his "moneyball" data driven approach. Add to that, Liverpool have been swift and effective in recruiting players.

As for City, Begiristain, he was brought in precisely because he knew what kind of players suit Guardiola's football. Besides the immense work he did for the academy, he's been very instrumental for transfers for City. And they tend to settle their transfers professionally without the drama you see from Woodward et al.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/01/pep-guardiola-scouting-manchester-city
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...e-unsung-hero-for-man-city-so-far-this-season

I'm not saying they're perfect. Far from it. It's just that they are obviously very competent in their roles and have done a good job over the years which has benefitted their clubs. I wish I could say the same for Man United. Sadly I can't.
 

JPRouve

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That's not true. If I am not mistaken, Edwards was only promoted to technical director when Klopp took over from Brendan Rodgers. He was apparently liked because of his "moneyball" data driven approach. Add to that, Liverpool have been swift and effective in recruiting players.

As for City, Begiristain, he was brought in precisely because he knew what kind of players suit Guardiola's football. Besides the immense work he did for the academy, he's been very instrumental for transfers for City. And they tend to settle their transfers professionally without the drama you see from Woodward et al.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/01/pep-guardiola-scouting-manchester-city
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...e-unsung-hero-for-man-city-so-far-this-season

I'm not saying they're perfect. Far from it. It's just that they are obviously very competent in their roles and have done a good job over the years which has benefitted their clubs. I wish I could say the same for Man United. Sadly I can't.
How is that not true? Txiki joined in 2012 and brought the likes of Bony, Mangala or Otamendi among other players that do not fit with Guardiola. Txiki did his own thing before Guardiola came, he wasn't building a team for Guardiola who inherited an old team with many players at the end of their contracts and passed it like Demichelis, Clichy, Sagna. And City's academy has produced nothing, so let's not act as if he has done an immense work in the 8 years that he has been there Butt has done more in half of the time.

As for Edwards, the fact that he became DOF after Klopp joined should tell you everything, what kind of data led him to advise the purchases of Downing, Benteke, Carroll, Markovic and other Grujic? Why weren't they swift and effective before Klopp joined?
 

tombombadil

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How is that not true? Txiki joined in 2012 and brought the likes of Bony, Mangala or Otamendi among other players that do not fit with Guardiola. Txiki did his own thing before Guardiola came, he wasn't building a team for Guardiola who inherited an old team with many players at the end of their contracts and passed it like Demichelis, Clichy, Sagna. And City's academy has produced nothing, so let's not act as if he has done an immense work in the 8 years that he has been there Butt has done more in half of the time.

As for Edwards, the fact that he became DOF after Klopp joined should tell you everything, what kind of data led him to advise the purchases of Downing, Benteke, Carroll, Markovic and other Grujic? Why weren't they swift and effective before Klopp joined?
Chill. When I say "that is not true", I was referring to Edwards. Not Guardiola. And did you read the links I shared? Guardiola seems to disagree with you.

As for Edwards, he was only promoted the year Klopp joined. How you hold him responsible for transfers the previous years when he only took control of transfers after that, I have no idea.

And like I said. I'm not saying they're perfect. They make mistakes like everyone else. The more important thing is they have been good at their jobs overall. And their clubs have benefited from it. Our current setup, with Woodward's "transfer committee" is shameful in comparison. As much as we all hate City and Liverpool, they did a good job the last few years. We have to admit that.
 

Sky1981

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Yup. Because if we get relegated

Pogba would play his heart out
Ole would become better manager
Sancho would want to come to us
We'd be playing better as a team

You lot are delusional if you think our players would go down with us, pogba wants a move long before that happens.

The only players that stays with us are the deadwoods like lingard and mata.

Yeah right
 

rotherham_red

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If the squad is decent then I think we did well for this phase; finished 3ed with 4 semifinals was about the best you can expect when you have 2 other clubs at the pinnacle of their cycle. A bonus is getting some healthy wins against rivals.

There is no reason now to doubt Ole imo. unless you are Carl Anka and think you know better about football coaching and tactics then real managers do. If the team does not continue to progress though, things change.
FFS, Anka :houllier:

The most unnecessarily smug prick in football media.
 

JPRouve

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Chill. When I say "that is not true", I was referring to Edwards. Not Guardiola. And did you read the links I shared? Guardiola seems to disagree with you.

As for Edwards, he was only promoted the year Klopp joined. How he is responsible for transfers the previous years when he only took control of transfers after that, I have no idea.

And like I said. I'm not saying they're perfect. They make mistakes like everyone else. The more important thing is they have been good at their jobs overall. And their clubs have benefited from it. Our current setup, with Woodward's "transfer committee" is shameful in comparison. As much as we all hate City and Liverpool, they did a good job the last few years. We have to admit that.
I'm chill and yes I read it. And no Guardiola doesn't disagree with me, I didn't tell you that Txiki didn't bring players that fitted Guardiola when Guardiola was their manager, I told you that he didn't bring players that fitted Guardiola when he wasn't which means that they didn't bring the same type of players, before Guardiola the players fitted Pellegrini and from 2016 they shifted to players that fitted Guardiola.
That's exactly what happened at United, with LVG bringing players that fitted him, then Mourinho doing the same and then Ole doing the same. The difference is that United have had 4 managers since 2013 while City have had 2.
As for Liverpool their transfers were vastly different before Klopp so that's an other example of a club shifting with the manager and same logic, they have had 1 manager since october 2015 when we have had 3. Before that they had a transfer committee, by the way.

So the lesson is that, if you have one of the best manager in the world, he will most likely do a good a job, you will most likely keep him and it will create continuity in terms of the profile of players that you are purchasing.
 

Fredo

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Let's get things in perspective:

We have a generally good starting 11, we have no quality in our depth (if you call it depth). We always need to hope that Pogba is in the mood otherwise we lose the midfield and end up creating nothing for our attackers. We let lower teams beat us then go and beat a top team(totally illogical)

Our only hope this season is to keep the best players in shape and injury-free, rotation is typically hard with the gulf in quality between first 11 and subs, the clearout didnt occur at all, quite understandable given covid and the quality we are hoping to sell.

Overall this will be an interesting season for our front 3 in particular, hope they can continue to improve. And Lindelof should be replaced.
 

tombombadil

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I'm chill and yes I read it. And no Guardiola doesn't disagree with me, I didn't tell you that Txiki didn't bring players that fitted Guardiola when Guardiola was their manager, I told you that he didn't bring players that fitted Guardiola when he wasn't which means that they didn't bring the same type of players, before Guardiola the players fitted Pellegrini and from 2016 they shifted to players that fitted Guardiola.
That's exactly what happened at United, with LVG bringing players that fitted him, then Mourinho doing the same and then Ole doing the same. The difference is that United have had 4 managers since 2013 while City have had 2.
As for Liverpool their transfers were vastly different before Klopp so that's an other example of a club shifting with the manager and same logic, they have had 1 manager since october 2015 when we have had 3. Before that they had a transfer committee, by the way.

So the lesson is that, if you have one of the best manager in the world, he will most likely do a good a job, you will most likely keep him and it will create continuity in terms of the profile of players that you are purchasing.
Nobody gets things 100% right. And managers can tweak their tactics all the time, even if the general direction is the same. I wouldn't call Txiki a "scatter gun approach" for that. As for Edwards, you're basically just asserting it was Klopp who made the difference when Edwards was the actual director in charge of transfers. I don't think either assertions justifies your refusal to credit both of them for their work. I try to look at the facts. Considering the fact they literally have a director of football structure where the director makes the decisions, not the manager. And the fact that they have done well in transfers the last few years. I give them credit where it is due. And don't get me wrong. At the very least, I think we can both agree the good job they've done the last few years, which is where the envy, for me, stems from.

United on the other hand, pales in comparison. I guess with regards to United's "transfer committee" setup, I think we can both agree with the haphazard way the club has been recruiting until recently. And after last season, seems to be in regression again.
 
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snowkarl

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How is that not true? Txiki joined in 2012 and brought the likes of Bony, Mangala or Otamendi among other players that do not fit with Guardiola. Txiki did his own thing before Guardiola came, he wasn't building a team for Guardiola who inherited an old team with many players at the end of their contracts and passed it like Demichelis, Clichy, Sagna. And City's academy has produced nothing, so let's not act as if he has done an immense work in the 8 years that he has been there Butt has done more in half of the time.

As for Edwards, the fact that he became DOF after Klopp joined should tell you everything, what kind of data led him to advise the purchases of Downing, Benteke, Carroll, Markovic and other Grujic? Why weren't they swift and effective before Klopp joined?
This is a good point but I think it could be slightly expanded upon.

It is not as simple as a good manager involved in transfers will yield favorable results, I think it has a lot to do with finding a manager with a very clear idea of how his teams should play, what player profiles he wants and a good working relationship between the management and scouting/analytics departments.

Txiki did not evolve magically when Guardiola arrived - but he was able to do a much better job when Guardiola provided him with a list of attributes and strengths he wanted for each position and what number of players were needed where and when. Similarly, I think we'll see this happening at Arsenal, where players like Luiz, Maitland Niles and Xhaka are performing on elite levels whereas just a year ago they were the laughing stock of the Premier League and written off as terrible.

Klopp's team of players were all decent to very good prior to joining, Salah, Mane, Robertson, Milner & VVD were all high performers both according to stats and the eye even before joining, but their full potential was only realised once they were put in a team with clear instructions, fulfilling roles that maximize their output according to their specific strengths. Robertson would do nowhere close to as well playing for us, because we do not rely on our left back for width or attack as much as Liverpool, and our left back is expected to defend to a higher degree, hence he would be exposed and given less chance to get forward. Firmino would also be relatively poor for us, since his play style of pulling defenders out of position and allowing others to get into the box doesn't mesh with Ole's version of a striker who might do just that to an extent, when Greenwood is on the pitch, is expected to score a much higher percentage of the goal in the team and remain in the box.

Anyway, Ole seems to know what he wants, but I am not sure he has the tactical depth of Klopp/Guardiola/Arteta/Conte and might not be able to identify or articulate exactly what he wants from who and when. But we'll see.
 

JPRouve

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Nobody gets things 100% right. And managers can tweak their tactics all the time, even if the general direction is the same. I wouldn't call Txiki a "scatter gun approach" for that. As for Edwards, you're basically just asserting it was Klopp who made the difference when Edwards was the actual director in charge of transfers. I don't think either assertions justifies your refusal to credit both of them for their work. I try to look at the facts. Considering the fact they literally have a director of football structure where the director makes the decisions, not the manager. And the fact that they have done well in transfers the last few years. I give them credit where it is due. And don't get me wrong. At the very least, I think we can both agree the good job they've done the last few years, which is where the envy, for me, stems from.

United on the other hand, pales in comparison. I guess with regards to United's "transfer committee" setup, I think we can both agree with the haphazard way the club has been recruiting until recently. And after last season, seems to be in regression again.
It's not about being 100% right but that your premise is wrong, you tried to show that there was a distinction between their approach and ours when it comes to bringing the same type of players which is wrong. For each managers we brought the same type of players, the changes occurred when we had a different manager which is exactly what City and Liverpool have done. If you had simply praised Edwards and Txiki for the work that they did for Klopp and Guardiola then I could have agreed but it's not what you did. And the difference between United and these teams is that we appointed inferior managers who wanted the wrong type of players and we brought them that type of player.

For me you are looking in the right direction but not seeing the obvious. The same people that were working behind the scene under Dalglish, Rodgers and Hodgson magically turned into shrewd football people a few months after Klopp was appointed? Keep in mind that they officially went to the DOF model a year after Klopp joined them, the shift in terms of signing and mentality within the club had already occurred, so I will definitely praise Klopp for that one, Edwards is maybe a very competent man but he isn't the reason behind Liverpool's success, nor is the DOF model even if it's the best model for Klopp which is why they went with it.

And I definitely think that the DOF model is the best in most cases because most coaches come from the continent and it's almost always the model they are used to.
 

tombombadil

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It's not about being 100% right but that your premise is wrong, you tried to show that there was a distinction between their approach and ours when it comes to bringing the same type of players which is wrong. For each managers we brought the same type of players, the changes occurred when we had a different manager which is exactly what City and Liverpool have done. If you had simply praised Edwards and Txiki for the work that they did for Klopp and Guardiola then I could have agreed but it's not what you did. And the difference between United and these teams is that we appointed inferior managers who wanted the wrong type of players and we brought them that type of player.

For me you are looking in the right direction but not seeing the obvious. The same people that were working behind the scene under Dalglish, Rodgers and Hodgson magically turned into shrewd football people a few months after Klopp was appointed? Keep in mind that they officially went to the DOF model a year after Klopp joined them, the shift in terms of signing and mentality within the club had already occurred, so I will definitely praise Klopp for that one, Edwards is maybe a very competent man but he isn't the reason behind Liverpool's success, nor is the DOF model even if it's the best model for Klopp which is why they went with it.

And I definitely think that the DOF model is the best in most cases because most coaches come from the continent and it's almost always the model they are used to.
There is a distinction. For example, just the way they buy players is vastly different. Just look at how the Sancho saga went and all the senseless drama that came with it and compare that to how low profile and effective Liverpool have been with transfers this season. And like I said, just because you assume it was the manager who made the difference, without acknowledging the contribution of both Txiki and Edwards, doesn't make it true.

The fact you keep harping about about "same people behind the scenes for Rodgers, et al" emphasizes this. There ARE DIFFERENT people behind the scenes now. His name is Edwards. And he is the guy I am praising. Not anyone before that. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

I do agree with you on the DOF model though. Looking at how things are today and the carousel nature of managerial jobs, these days, a DOF model is becoming increasingly relevant to me.
 

GenZRed

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The perspective is, that we could probably put both Messi and Ronaldo into this team, and we'd still be in freefall.

Something is seriously broken with Manchester United. Every player we buy is quickly brought down to a poor playing level. Look at Bruno as the latest victim, he has been atrocious for 6/7 games after a blistering start.


We are now in the champions league, and this was our best chance of signing some players of note - based on CL qualification (Van De Beek?, do me a favour...), but no, we yet again waste that chance, and prospective players will look at how dreadful we are currently, plus the start to this season, and think "no, thank you".

Why would any decent player want to join the club when they see how badly we are being managed?

Poor management of the club from top to bottom..

We also need some REAL leaders on that pitch.
Good point. It appears that we are a poorly coached squad. You can have a great manager but if the coaching standard is poor then the manager's effectiveness will not be as profound.
 

JPRouve

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There is a distinction. For example, just the way they buy players is vastly different. Just look at how the Sancho saga went and all the senseless drama that came with it and compare that to how low profile and effective Liverpool have been with transfers this season. And like I said, just because you assume it was the manager who made the difference, without acknowledging the contribution of both Txiki and Edwards, doesn't make it true.

The fact you keep harping about about "same people behind the scenes for Rodgers, et al" emphasizes this. There ARE DIFFERENT people behind the scenes now. His name is Edwards. And he is the guy I am praising. Not anyone before that. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

I do agree with you on the DOF model though. Looking at how things are today and the carousel nature of managerial jobs, these days, a DOF model is becoming increasingly relevant to me.
Edwards was already there, he came with Comolli in 2011. That's one of the issue with your point, you are giving particular praises to someone who was already there when they were a shamble and was a member of their transfer committee when Klopp started to fix their issues during the first 12-13 months of his tenure at Liverpool.
 

gajender

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Edwards was already there, he came with Comolli in 2011. That's one of the issue with your point, you are giving particular praises to someone who was already there when they were a shamble and was a member of their transfer committee when Klopp started to fix their issues during the first 12-13 months of his tenure at Liverpool.
Very well reasoned but as they say success has many father's and failure is a orphan , so right now everything Liverpool are doing would be seen through prism of their success so their Owners are declared the best ,their scouting department is great and their Sporting director is the best ,it very well may be the case of all of them basking in reflected glory of Klopp's managerial genius.
 

tombombadil

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Edwards was already there, he came with Comolli in 2011. That's one of the issue with your point, you are giving particular praises to someone who was already there when they were a shamble and was a member of their transfer committee when Klopp started to fix their issues during the first 12-13 months of his tenure at Liverpool.
He was not in charge. Comolli was. Would you be happy to be responsible and punished for your boss' mistakes?
 

JPRouve

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He was not in charge. Comolli was. Would you be happy to be responsible and punished for your boss' mistakes?
Comolli wasn't his boss in the transfer committee, Comolli left in 2012 and the committee took over. Edwards was a member of the transfer committee alongside Fallows and Hunter. So I'm not asking him to be punished for someone else's work, I'm asking you why the transfer committee he was part of was a a shamble and then the same peoples became competent from October 2015 to today? We both know the answer, everyone knows the answer.
 

baskinginthesun

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Every season there is a small section who hype up Everton and they are always shite. back to back 12th placed finishes despite huge investment.
Meh, I think they are better than 12th. Not nearly good enough for a crack at the top 4. Ancelotti cannot fix that defense.
 

tombombadil

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Comolli wasn't his boss in the transfer committee, Comolli left in 2012 and the committee took over. Edwards was a member of the transfer committee alongside Fallows and Hunter. So I'm not asking him to be punished for someone else's work, I'm asking you why the transfer committee he was part of was a a shamble and then the same peoples became competent from October 2015 to today? We both know the answer, everyone knows the answer.
Because he became the boss? The structure was changed?
 

NoPace

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Tough to see us finishing anywhere but 5th-6th, with probably Chelsea and one of Spurs or Arsenal ahead of us and then maybe one of Leicester or Everton but probably not. So yeah, 5th, no idea which of Spurs or Arsenal beat us out for 4th this time. Arsenal's forward line is probably about the same as ours but Tierney and Gabriel feel like pretty substantial upgrades and I do expect them to get one of either Partey or Aouar, with Partey looking the better fit if they play 3-4-3 but Aouar an equally good signing if and when they play 4-3-3.

So yeah, I think we miss out on Europe this time unless we sort out the whole not having a system thing.
 

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Really good post and I completely agree with the sentiment. I also agree with how frustrating it is when the club fails to invest after a successful season when they have momentum.

But, I really don't think the lack of investment is due to choice. I think it's simply down to incompetence and desperation. On the back of a successful season they seem more bullish and feel they're in a position of strength so feel they can negotiate the price, which seems to involve stalling and waiting as long as possible before paying way over the odds. But after a bad season, they're more desperate so pay over the odds sooner.

The club just seems really bad at identifying talent that is genuinely available which gives them leverage in negotiations. Van de Beek was as easy a deal as there was. Good value predetermined fee, former player as CEO of the selling club.

If they don't want to spend big money, why are they even going for Sancho? Sure, they might get a discount but even an amazing deal is still going to be circa €100m. There are cheaper options out there if they want to be frugal.

I genuinely think they want to sign players and they're certainly in for Sancho. They are just really really bad at it. Every club in Europe is laughing all the way to the bank when United come in for one of their players.
@eire-red

Probably this can provide some clarity: https://pastebin.com/JUT5EVLj
 

eire-red

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@eire-red

Probably this can provide some clarity: https://pastebin.com/JUT5EVLj
Thanks for that, really good read.

The pitfalls of public companies are that you have tangible and sizeable shareholders to answer to, and to create wealth for them.

While on one hand, being public allows us to access funding that is cut off from private companies, the downfall is that these debt covenants seem to be choking us.

Found it interesting to note how they mention transfers have no effect on our profits, I wonder how they account for transfers then. On the balance sheet it would be fairly straightforward, an increase in assets (players) and/or an increase in liabilities (debt to pay for them) or a depletion of cash reserves, so the net effect is 0. Not sure how EBITDA discounts the expense though in the P&L.

It's a moronic covenant anyway, how many football clubs consistently generate positive earnings? And we're required to post 65m in earnings every year, for cheaper debt sourcing. The effects from the Glazers and their LBO will be still here for decades, won't they...
 

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When we picked our best 11 last season, it left no game changers on the bench. I don't see any difference this season (YET) we have added DvB so it maybe leaves a midfielder that could change the game from the bench if needed.
There is not much challenge for our forwards if the front 3 are Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood. Ighalo is the only forward that looks like he can score from crosses. Martial still has to learn to score the tap ins as well as spectacular goals, and all 3 mentioned need to score headed goals if we bring in a winger, or attacking full back.
 

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Thanks for that, really good read.

The pitfalls of public companies are that you have tangible and sizeable shareholders to answer to, and to create wealth for them.

While on one hand, being public allows us to access funding that is cut off from private companies, the downfall is that these debt covenants seem to be choking us.

Found it interesting to note how they mention transfers have no effect on our profits, I wonder how they account for transfers then. On the balance sheet it would be fairly straightforward, an increase in assets (players) and/or an increase in liabilities (debt to pay for them) or a depletion of cash reserves, so the net effect is 0. Not sure how EBITDA discounts the expense though in the P&L.

It's a moronic covenant anyway, how many football clubs consistently generate positive earnings? And we're required to post 65m in earnings every year, for cheaper debt sourcing. The effects from the Glazers and their LBO will be still here for decades, won't they...
I don't know if the covenant has EBITDA or Gross Profit linked to it. The transfers would be in the amortization and thus not affecting EBITDA but Gross Profit taking a hit. Salaries would be OPEX and reflected in EBITDA. My guess is that any deal we agree has to be with deferred payments and in installments. And from the media we are left with the impression that Dortmund want a huge sum upfront. I would imagine that is the biggest blocker for any deal right now.


This tweet explains the reduced revenues of about £111m which is the main reason for the clubs financial concerns. That sum would have enabled us to freely pursuit Sancho with an upfront payment like we did with Maguire.
 

POF

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@eire-red

Probably this can provide some clarity: https://pastebin.com/JUT5EVLj
Thank you. Interesting read.

The $65m EBITDA covenant is interesting but obviously has no impact on transfers. You could spend $1bn on a transfer and it wouldn't impact EBITDA if the player fulfils his contract.

Obviously there are liquidity concerns with spending such huge sums on a transfer but "United can't afford it" just doesn't stack up for 2 reasons:

- The likes of Spurs are signing multiple players.
- If United are so broke, why are they pursuing Sancho? It's like a uni student starving because a Michelin star restaurant won't sell them a 5 course meal for $5. Just go to McDonalds!

Based on nothing more than my impressions of watching it all play out, it seems that there's no reason, there's no covenant, there's no financial impediment to buying players (within reason) this summer. They are just really really bad at it.
 

georgipep

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Thank you. Interesting read.

The $65m EBITDA covenant is interesting but obviously has no impact on transfers. You could spend $1bn on a transfer and it wouldn't impact EBITDA if the player fulfils his contract.

Obviously there are liquidity concerns with spending such huge sums on a transfer but "United can't afford it" just doesn't stack up for 2 reasons:

- The likes of Spurs are signing multiple players.
- If United are so broke, why are they pursuing Sancho? It's like a uni student starving because a Michelin star restaurant won't sell them a 5 course meal for $5. Just go to McDonalds!

Based on nothing more than my impressions of watching it all play out, it seems that there's no reason, there's no covenant, there's no financial impediment to buying players (within reason) this summer. They are just really really bad at it.
As most of what I would answer you is already covered by my answer to eire-red, here it is


I don't know if the covenant has EBITDA or Gross Profit linked to it. The transfers would be in the amortization and thus not affecting EBITDA but Gross Profit taking a hit. Salaries would be OPEX and reflected in EBITDA. My guess is that any deal we agree has to be with deferred payments and in installments. And from the media we are left with the impression that Dortmund want a huge sum upfront. I would imagine that is the biggest blocker for any deal right now.


This tweet explains the reduced revenues of about £111m which is the main reason for the clubs financial concerns. That sum would have enabled us to freely pursuit Sancho with an upfront payment like we did with Maguire.
 

Amadaeus

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So our post-lockdown run means the team is good enough to challenge for the title, but our shite performances means Ole is not up to it? What kind of logic is that?

And imo its not so much an issue of a streaky manager, its rather an issue of streaky players. The average age of our attacking lineup for example (MMM) is only 21, they are going to be inconsistent. Then you have the likes of Pogba who fluctuates between world class and absolute rubbish and has done under other managers as well. Also i think we all can agree on three things:

1. Our first XI when firing on all cylinders can beat pretty much anyone
2. There are still holes in the squad and first XI that needs to be addressed
3. The drop off in quality between the first XI and second string players are severe. So while we got a big squad, we still lack depth

Also, as good as a signing Bruno was, the rebuild is far from over, still a lot of unanswered questions regarding the squad.

Good enough for top 4Squad player/Big questions surroundingDeadwood
Martial
Greenwood
Rashford
Bruno
AWB
Maguire
DDG/Hendo
Lindelof
Shaw (too inconsistent, very injury prone)
Williams
Pogba (too inconsistent)
McTomminay
Baily (too inconsistent, very injury prone)
Smalling
Dalot
Fosu-Mensah
Tuanzebe
Fred
Matic (good, but old)
Van Der Beek
James
Jones
Rojo
Grant
Mata
Lindgard
Pereira

So we got one keeper, RB, one CB and the attacking line up sorted. Now you would argue Pogba belongs in the first column based on his talent, but its been a LONG time since he put in a a string of good performances for us.
The logic is simple. Our team shown that they are good enough to compete at the highest level, but our managers has failed to motivate them to keep that consistency going. We don’t see Ole modernizing our football with programs like footbonaut or Heliz. Moreover testing player’s psycho-diagnostics and seeing how players are handling motivational structures. Ole lags behind is sport science and leadership capabilities to get the players playing at the highest level. Our team is good enough to challenge for the title, our manager is not.

Our players are not streaky, they sometimes just have a dip in form. It is up to the manager to motivate them, bring up fresh ideas, or drop them to see if that will ignite their passion. I do agree that we do suffer in ‘quality’ depth, but it is getting worked on as we just bought DVDB, and I expect a few more signings to make our team complete. The quality depth is only in rw, striker, and maybe lb at the moment. So it is not a huge problem that will hinder the success of the team if the first 11 stays fit.
 

Bobcat

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The logic is simple. Our team shown that they are good enough to compete at the highest level, but our managers has failed to motivate them to keep that consistency going.
Right, so when Poch got beat to the league title by Ranieri he just failed to motivate his players? Because there is no way anyone can claim that Leichester squad was better than Spurs at the time

We don’t see Ole modernizing our football with programs like footbonaut or Heliz. Moreover testing player’s psycho-diagnostics and seeing how players are handling motivational structures. Ole lags behind is sport science and leadership capabilities to get the players playing at the highest level. Our team is good enough to challenge for the title, our manager is not.
You do know Ole is not all-powerful in the club right? Getting a footbonaut to Carrington is not impossible, but that's not up to him only. Besides, if a footbonaut was all that, why isn't everyone using them? Do you have any sources for any of this or are you just pulling facts out of a hat?

Our players are not streaky, they sometimes just have a dip in form. It is up to the manager to motivate them, bring up fresh ideas, or drop them to see if that will ignite their passion. I do agree that we do suffer in ‘quality’ depth, but it is getting worked on as we just bought DVDB, and I expect a few more signings to make our team complete. The quality depth is only in rw, striker, and maybe lb at the moment. So it is not a huge problem that will hinder the success of the team if the first 11 stays fit.
Again, if its just a matter of motivation, why did not Klopp accomplish anything with rubbish like Benteke, Lovern and Leiva? Could he not just motivate them to play like Salah and Mane? A few more signings? I wish i was as positive as you because right now it looks like we will sign no one besides DvB
 

Amadaeus

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Right, so when Poch got beat to the league title by Ranieri he just failed to motivate his players? Because there is no way anyone can claim that Leichester squad was better than Spurs at the time


You do know Ole is not all-powerful in the club right? Getting a footbonaut to Carrington is not impossible, but that's not up to him only. Besides, if a footbonaut was all that, why isn't everyone using them? Do you have any sources for any of this or are you just pulling facts out of a hat?


Again, if its just a matter of motivation, why did not Klopp accomplish anything with rubbish like Benteke, Lovern and Leiva? Could he not just motivate them to play like Salah and Mane? A few more signings? I wish i was as positive as you because right now it looks like we will sign no one besides DvB
Everyone thinks Ranieri beat just Spurs that season :lol:. If it wasn’t for the anomaly of a season, Spurs would have won the league. Pochettino motivated his team to be consistently better than 18-16 teams in the league, which is far better than most managers in the premier league and definitely better than any Manchester United managers post Sir Alex. This was done with a budget significantly lower than most of not all the top teams in football.

Ole doesn’t have to implement a footbonaut program, he can come upwith an innovative footballing methodology, but based on what we seen on the pitch, it doesn’t appear that we have a gameplan or system, yet alone any advance sport science programs going on at Carrington.

Klopp achieve a lot with rubbish like Henderson, Milner, Lovern, Klaurus and a few more average players. He built a team that even the average players played arole in their success.As there are few players that Klopp could not motivate, there are a lot of players Klopp could motivate. With Ole, I don’t see him having the same effect pochettino or Klopp have in transforming average players to decent one because he relies on individual world class brilliance to hide his managerial ineptitude. This team is capable of challenging for the title if they are fit for a prolonged period, but because we don’t have Klopp or Pochettino in charge, we have to continually sign world class players to reach that level.
 

kouroux

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Perception and momentum are huge in football. Liverpool showed some signs of progress and then went big for Van Dijk and Allison.

They go on to win the Champions League and Premier League in successive seasons. Now they're a team that can attract a Champions League winning midfielder in his prime.

Last summer, United decided that they needed a culture shift, a huge clear out of top earning and big money stars to replace with the right characters. They culled a number of players and have signed 4 permanent first teamers (James is a kid and Igalho is on loan) in 3 transfer windows.

After the disastrous window last summer where they went into the season with no depth in attack, they seemed like they learned a lesson in January. Spent big on Bruno and ended the season with real momentum and Champions League football.

3 or 4 top class signings and this would be an exciting squad raring to go for the season. But they've done it again. Utter incompetence at a leadership level. All momentum gained from the end of last season is frittering away.

You've got to strike when the iron is hot. Recruit quality when you're a team that appears to be on the up and it will come to fruition.

Senior management has let Ole down again and unless they can pull a couple of rabbits out of a hat, it could be a long season.
Very well said.
 

Bobcat

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Everyone thinks Ranieri beat just Spurs that season :lol:. If it wasn’t for the anomaly of a season, Spurs would have won the league. Pochettino motivated his team to be consistently better than 18-16 teams in the league, which is far better than most managers in the premier league and definitely better than any Manchester United managers post Sir Alex. This was done with a budget significantly lower than most of not all the top teams in football.

Ole doesn’t have to implement a footbonaut program, he can come upwith an innovative footballing methodology, but based on what we seen on the pitch, it doesn’t appear that we have a gameplan or system, yet alone any advance sport science programs going on at Carrington.

Klopp achieve a lot with rubbish like Henderson, Milner, Lovern, Klaurus and a few more average players. He built a team that even the average players played arole in their success.As there are few players that Klopp could not motivate, there are a lot of players Klopp could motivate. With Ole, I don’t see him having the same effect pochettino or Klopp have in transforming average players to decent one because he relies on individual world class brilliance to hide his managerial ineptitude. This team is capable of challenging for the title if they are fit for a prolonged period, but because we don’t have Klopp or Pochettino in charge, we have to continually sign world class players to reach that level.
Its not just about motivation though is it. Sometimes a team wins because they have better footballers and something that gets left out of the discussion way to often: Squad building and getting the right players in. Fergie was not some great tactician or innovator, yet he is considered the best manager of all time. The key was his leadership skills and his ability to assemble a team that not only had talent in spades, but also had the right mentality.

And do you seriously believe Ole just says to the players: "Go out there and have fun"? If he did that they would have mutinied about 18 months ago

And i know the Caf loves to shit on Henderson and Millner, but they are far from rubbish. In Klopps two first years there they moved on 12 first team players, the only good one being Coutinho. Just for a bit of fun, here is Klopps first starting XI as Liverpool manager:
Mignolet, Clyne, Skrtel, Sakho, Moreno, Leiva, Can, Milner, Lallana (replaced by Allen), Coutinho (replaced by Ibe), Origi
Almost all of them are gone, and thats not because he failed to motivate them, its because they were rubbish and/or a bad fit for the way he wanted to play

That bolded part is just mental. Are you seriously claiming this United squad would be title contenders if we had Poch in charge?
 

POF

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Everyone thinks Ranieri beat just Spurs that season :lol:. If it wasn’t for the anomaly of a season, Spurs would have won the league. Pochettino motivated his team to be consistently better than 18-16 teams in the league, which is far better than most managers in the premier league and definitely better than any Manchester United managers post Sir Alex. This was done with a budget significantly lower than most of not all the top teams in football.
I realise that's your schtick but please just give it a rest.

Pochettino did a fantastic job at Spurs and is without a doubt an excellent manager. But he had the opportunity of a lifetime that season. A straight shoot out with Leicester for the title and he finished 3rd in a 2 horse race.

A massive bottle job which, if nothing else, questions whether he has what it takes to manage a truly top club.
 

edcunited1878

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Lowering United standards to match Ole standards I see. Even with Jose(who a lot of fans believe has lost it), finishing third or fourth with no trophies will be unacceptable. If we are to keep lowering our standards for Ole, we might as well sack him now. This team is more than capable of pushing for the title and winning trophies. Most fan agree that this is the best team we have had post sir Alex and our investment is over 1/4 of a billion pounds.
This team isn't close to pushing for the title...winning trophies like domestic cups, yes. But you're completely wrong on challenging for the league. COMPLETELY WRONG.

That's not because of talent, but because we don't know the level at which the team can sustain and improve to. And most players have to go up at least another level or two in the league, let alone overall. And that increase in level is consistency of output and being able to rely on them to show up and perform at 7 out of 10 levels at minimum week in and week out.

Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and Bruno must perform at the same levels as last season as a minimum, but in reality have to improve on their performances and output, which includes staying fit and available for selection (Rashford and Martial).

Pogba has to be relatively injury free and be more consistent at a good to high level. Same with Fred and Matic. McTominay has to improve the most. DVB has to take to like a duck to water and provide quality depth and performances, more so than Lingard, Mata, Fred, and McTominay.

The team under Ole is has been together for one year when taking into account within the last year saw Maguire, AWB, Bruno, and Greenwood come into the first team and play heavy first XI minutes.

The reality is that United have more to go in recruitment and improving the current players in the squad to sincerely challenge for the league. I think if they are able to build and improve the players they currently have and bring in two players who would slot into the starting XI, they'd challenge for the league within 3 years.