You don’t know what technique really means but ok, it’s always good to have a laugh with the only scored goals brigade.
Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
I’ve never understood the GOAT debate. It was obvious even in their respective prime years that Messi had a bit more raw talent and his game was always more about supporting as much as it was attacking. Ronaldo has flair and his pace played a crucial role in his success.
Both great players. Messi’s game was just more holistic and adaptive to the overall team.
Both great players. Messi’s game was just more holistic and adaptive to the overall team.
I'm not trying to discredit the world cup, I just think that performances at club level are a far better indicator of quality, look at Greece winning euro 2004. Did a single player off that team ever do anything notable again? Were those players the best in Europe that year, I mean they won a competition which some are claiming is harder than the CL? The answer is obviously not, same with Morocco and an extent, Croatia this year, how many of those players are really among the best in the world that a 3rd/4th place finish suggests? Obviously a few from Croatia but as a whole no. The world cup is a fantastic tournament to watch usually, there's generally upsets and the like, and players outside Europe get to play on a huge stage, for many players it is the peak because it does happen only every 4 years, there's been relatively few different winners, and most players get few chances to win it in their career so it means a lot. But for me it's not a great judge of quality, at least compared to club football but that's part of the appeal really, that it has a far more anything can happen feel
After reading some posts here I had the flashback of former strong discussions on the Ronaldo vs Messi thread between @Peyroteo and Arbitrium. 
Ah, those were the times. Most toxic football topic of the last 15 years.
Thank God that crap is finished. Can’t wait in the future for the Mbappe vs Endrick one.
Ah, those were the times. Most toxic football topic of the last 15 years.
Thank God that crap is finished. Can’t wait in the future for the Mbappe vs Endrick one.
Yes but the team you play with generally is also not a super team so it evens out.
You play with (unless you are in brazil, france, spain or Germany in earlier editions) and against weaker footballer, so it is tougher as compared to you being in RM or Barca super teams playing mostly against teams less talented than you and sometimes those same as you in Bayern, United, City, PSG.
In short if you are like CR7 and Messi, it is tougher because you went from a superclub team in Madrid/Barca to a usually not superteam in Portugal/Argentina.
If you are Muller or David Villa, it is the same or even easier because you went from superteams Bayern and Barca to superteams in Germany and Spain.
So for Messi, Ronaldo, Modric and the likes, it is tougher obviously
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Maradona
Pele
Messi
Pele
Messi
I think what the poster is trying to say is
1) In terms of dribbling and passing, CR7 was never a top 10 ever level. He may be a dribbling machine when younger but its really not GOAT level dribbling
2) CR7 entered this debate due to his 3 peat and multiple BD in his later Real Madrid career, at that point in time he was dribbling a lot less and not efficently, same for passing. The younger version was not the one that created the debate, but even if it was, its still not top 10 ever level passing or dribbling
3) What gets compared to Messi is his GOAT level goal scoring, not his dribbling or passing because lets be honest, they are not close in terms of both peak level or longevity
Well… although I have always been a Ronaldo guy, in the end I think everyone just have to appreciate greatness when they saw it in football. Personally of course I would still prefer Ronaldo to win it instead. But regardless of their long term rivalry, I think Messi simply deserves winning the WC and be crowned as the GOAT.
And with all things considered, I do think this WC is a perfect highlight and well deserved final chapter of Messi’s career. As I have seen them both played for over 18+ years, and have achieved everything they could. So in the end there’s no bitter feelings there on who’s winning it, just admiration.
If performances at club level are a better indicator then Messi is the best player ever by a country mile. 800 goals in 1000 games, 73 goals in a season, 7 d'or awards, won every trophy multiple times, dribbling machine, and playmaking God. Not even sure why this thread is still generating so much debate. It's over, its finished, the title of the greatest footballer is clear and obvious
You can still make arguments for Pele and Maradona tbf.
But Ronaldo is nowhere near the debate.
Real Madrid CL Group 2013-14
Real Madrid
Galatasaray
Juventus
Copenhagen
Real Madrid CL Group 2015-16
Real Madrid
PSG
Shakhtar Donetsk
Malmo FF
Real Madrid CL Group 2016-17
Borussia Dortmund
Real Madrid
Legia Warsaw
Sporting CP
Real Madrid CL Group 2017-18
Tottenham Hotspur
Real Madrid
Borussia Dortmund
APOEL
Looking at those groups would you pick anyone but Madrid to be the favourites to win their group? There team was stacked. And besides the 16-17 season they were not even the best team in their own league. So while the CL is the top club competition, it isn't as even of a competition as the World Cup.
When it comes to La Liga, Ronaldo only won it 2x. Since he left Real Madrid. They won it 2x plus another CL. Shows how good of a team Real is with or without Ronaldo.
In the same period 2010-2018
La Liga: Ronaldo 2x. Messi 5x.
The Copa del Rey: Ronaldo 2x. Messi 5x.
Supercopa: Ronaldo 2x. Messi 5x.
Plus isn't Messi's record against Real Madrid, better than Ronaldo's record against Barca? Similarly, the same is true with Messi against the top PL sides?
That is the biggest lie ever. He may have been carrying a knock but I watched him on that WC, he did not look injured at all and certainly not to the extent that ot would make him change his playing style. It is natural for players to lose a yard of pace around age 30 and that is what led Cristiano to become a poacher not some made up serious injury. Messi by 27 had already lost his explosiveness and became more and more a classic no 10 (from an inside forward/inverted winger and a false 9 ).
You are clutching at straws. Ronaldo is one of the greatest ever for his accomplishments and his longevity but any debate vs Messi is now dead and buried. No point arguing. Besides, Messi was always easily the better footballer; that Ronaldo has been in the debate is itself a great accomplishment
This thread still looks more debate to me than official.
Fanboi's for you. In their eyes their myopic viewpoint is official.
This thread will be wide open again when Ronaldo bangs in 70 goals next season...the Saudi Arabia league is more competitive than you think. Saudi Arabia beat Argentina in the WC therefore Ronaldo > Messi.
Yeah the better discussion moving forward will be where Mbappé ends up on the all time list and the Mbappé Vs Ronaldo debate.
Messi sealing his legacy as the goat might have killed this debate but Mbappé excelling at the highest stage - again - where Ronaldo has never been able to, opens up a new debate.
Yeah the chasm between Messi and Ronaldo is much wider than Ronaldo and 3rd and 4th place.
The stark difference between their performances in the highest level of international football is a bit nuts.
Messi is the all time goals+ assist leader in world cup history, is the only man with 2 golden balls, has led his team to the world cup while making history in being MOTM in ever KO match, while Ronaldo is at exactly zero goals and assists in the KO, having participated in 5 tournaments.
I’m all for minimizing Ronaldo but not Maradona or Pelé.
The difference isn't really that "nuts" when you account for the fact that the majority of Messi's great WC performance comes from a single tournament.
His international career until 1.5 years ago was disappointing for his level of talent, no doubt about it.
L.
And doesn't change the fact that Ronaldo has 0 goal contributions in the WC KO stages.
And? If the majority came from this one tournament, that just makes his latest campaign at the age of 35.5 all the more remarkable.
And doesn't change the fact that Ronaldo has 0 goal contributions in the WC KO stages.
Bravo, sir.
I didn't say it wasn't.
But you are the one who is talking about collective performance and not individual tournaments.
The contributions in individual tournaments go into the cumulative (or as you call it "collective") performances. Sounds like a bunch of nitpicking.
Ultimately, it's both a remarkable world cup performance as well as a remarkable world cup/international career.
I actually thought people were favoring Ronaldo by making the WC performances about goals, when Messi has had WC performances that were great and didn't result in him scoring. That's the entire reason why the 2014 WC performance gets almost dismissed. Whether or not he deserved the golden ball in 2014, has no relevance on whether or not he performed really well in the 2014 WC. He was one of the top performers. So really, it's been 2 WC tournaments he's been great for. I don't think it's even possible to suggest Ronaldo was ever a top 10 performer at a WC.
Seems a couple here or there still “debating” (like now trying to downplay the WC and big up the CL
) but generally seems very much “consensus” albeit the actual debate is Messi v Maradona v Pele. Ronaldo has fallen off that category, seemingly.You'd be surprised, with this lot.
His 2014 WC performance was good, but nothing special given what he was at the time (the most insane goalscorer we'd seen in decades). He delivered a dramatically better performance in this WC even though he's much older. It really shouldn't matter, anyway. One great WC performance and win is more than enough.
It is true that goalscoring isn't everything, but a little common sense is warranted. Argentina scored 2 goals in the entire knockout stages of the 2014 World Cup. That's a very unproductive attack for a WC finalist. I don't think anyone involved in that attack can claim they performed really well.
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There are 3 things:
1. Achievements: Mbappe can achieve more collectively with France (and already has compared to Cristiano) because he plays in a much better French side than Cristiano's Portugal at the same age. But at club level it will be incredibly difficult to match what Ronaldo has won collectively and individually (5 ballond'ors, had already one by age 23, Mbappe has zero podiums at age 24 but probably will be in top 3 this time). The 2 will probably cancel each other out.
2. Longevity: The other question is longevity. For Ronaldo, it came through will power and determination to succeed with Messi as the benchmark. Few, if any, players in history have had the drive Ronaldo has. Will Mbappe have the same drive? Remains to be seen.
3. Performances: I think Mbappe is a similar style of footballer to Cristiano but actually faster/more explosive and somewhat better technically so probably has a higher ceiling although Cristiano's ariel ability is much better. Where Mbappe might struggle is when his explosive pace inevitably drops by a yard because he is very reliant on it as was Cristiano; the later morphed into a poacher, Mbappe might have to as well.
In the end, Mbappe might be defined more with what he does with France than what he achieves individually or with his club. I sense more competition for him though due to the likes of Haaland (will break all scoring records, although lack of success with Norway may hold him back) and Musiala (if this guy just gets his end product right, he can surpass Mbappe because he is technically better ,has qualties of a classic no 10 and plays for a big footballing nation).
Ultimately while I totally agree that Cristiano vs Messi is now a pointless debate ( the later was always easily the better footballer, that for me was never a debate), it would be completely wrong to totally ignore all that Ronaldo achieved regardless of how idiotic he is. He has his place amongst the greats.
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It'll be interesting to see how things pan out. I agree that Mbappé will need to reinvent himself as he ages because he relies on attributed that will fade as he ages.
Hi! Barcelona fan here, which means I have followed Messi's career quite closely. For me, he is easily the best player since I follow football (early 90's), and I am happy he gets to retire with a World Cup win. Ironically he has won it when he is already well below his peak level.
About the comparison with Maradona, to me, it doesn't make sense. They were both the greatest of their generation and you cannot compare football in the 80's with today's game. This said, peak Maradona got the chance to compete in the World Cup with a real coach on his side, while peak Messi had to deal with a drug addict with no coaching experience at the top level. This is a huge handicap that is almost never talked about. I really doubt that Argentina in 86 would have managed to win the title if they had a character like Maradona sitting on the bench.
About the comparison with Maradona, to me, it doesn't make sense. They were both the greatest of their generation and you cannot compare football in the 80's with today's game. This said, peak Maradona got the chance to compete in the World Cup with a real coach on his side, while peak Messi had to deal with a drug addict with no coaching experience at the top level. This is a huge handicap that is almost never talked about. I really doubt that Argentina in 86 would have managed to win the title if they had a character like Maradona sitting on the bench.
South Africa 2010 was Argentina's biggest chance of winning it (far more than Qatar 2022, which they actually won) because they had a good team and Messi was playing football from another planet. Choosing Maradona as manager was a huge mistake. Totally clueless. Argentina were disjointed, Messi looked lost. They totally wasted him.
You can break football abilities down to many categories but it's clear that there are 3 that stand out in terms of what people value the most: goal-scoring, dribbling and passing.
There are subcategories that overlap with these like "positional sense" and "creativity" but in isolation they're not quite enough. Defending and work ethic will always be important, but they are not valued to the same degree. The best example of this is our very own Fergie who claimed that he had only coached 4 world class players(Cantona, Giggs, Scholes and Ronaldo). This may seem unnecessarily harsh on Schmeichel, Stam, Rio and Vidic, but it goes to show that one of the greatest minds in football think that scoring and creating, whether through dribbling or passing, are the most impressive things.
With this in mind I think it's hard to argue against Messi being the GOAT. Has there ever been a player who has been world class at all three? Maybe you'll find a few examples, but none of them did it consistently for 15 years at the highest possible level.
There are subcategories that overlap with these like "positional sense" and "creativity" but in isolation they're not quite enough. Defending and work ethic will always be important, but they are not valued to the same degree. The best example of this is our very own Fergie who claimed that he had only coached 4 world class players(Cantona, Giggs, Scholes and Ronaldo). This may seem unnecessarily harsh on Schmeichel, Stam, Rio and Vidic, but it goes to show that one of the greatest minds in football think that scoring and creating, whether through dribbling or passing, are the most impressive things.
With this in mind I think it's hard to argue against Messi being the GOAT. Has there ever been a player who has been world class at all three? Maybe you'll find a few examples, but none of them did it consistently for 15 years at the highest possible level.
Agree 100%
Not that I’d disagree in traditional sense, but I do think pace and athleticism are just as important as those in modern game though. We have currently the best 2 young players in the world heavily rely on those.
Mbappe will challenge the top 10 GOAT list imo. France, with that squad, can challenge the next 2 world cups at least, and if Mbappe gets 3 WCs as the main man, very hard to not put him in the top 5 or 10. How far he climbs there will then depend on his club career.
Only other player that was world class in all 3 categories for an extended period of time (10 years) was Pele. He had 3 WCs as well although he played in teams that did not need him to win/challenge for it. Thats why he is in the top 3 with Messi and Maradona, and my personal sole first before Messi won the WC last week
Even before this WC, Messi was a better international player. He's had better performances.
Ronaldo has never won a golden ball at the Euros(never mind the World Cup).
This WC just widened the gap.
Ronaldo has never won a golden ball at the Euros(never mind the World Cup).
This WC just widened the gap.
Are some people seriously still debating messi vs ronaldo? If there was any doubt (and there really shouldn’t have been), this World Cup has settled it. Destiny’s way to end it once and for all. And on the flip side you have Ronaldo not starting in the knockout stages. I feel bad for him actually but he mostly has himself to blame. And then some people now trying to downplay the World Cup? If it didn’t mean much would ronaldo be in tears after their exit?
Maradona and pele though is a very tough comparison, in general people shouldn’t compare across different generations. Lots of variables so it’s always going to be unfair.
If there was any doubt (and there really shouldn’t have been), this World Cup has settled it. Destiny’s way to end it once and for all. And on the flip side you have Ronaldo not starting in the knockout stages. I feel bad for him actually but he mostly has himself to blame. And then some people now trying to downplay the World Cup? If it didn’t mean much would ronaldo be in tears after their exit?Maradona and pele though is a very tough comparison, in general people shouldn’t compare across different generations. Lots of variables so it’s always going to be unfair.
Well Messi has pace covered too.
Not sure what you mean by athleticism, but stamina, speed and conditioning(not getting injured easily) are the most important for a footballer. Being physically strong as an attacker is great, especially in the box, but not at the detriment of the other skills I've mentioned. At least not if you want to be considered the GOAT.
Frankly, I don't think you can ever be the GOAT if you can't dribble or pass at a world class level consistently. I also can't imagine a slow, lazy and unathletic player who is great at those. I can easily imagine the opposite, though(top athletes with mediocre skills).
I think pace and athleticism are vastly overrated. Elite opponents usually don't offer you enough space that you can really exploit your pace as a top player. Those who excel in tight spaces are the ones that become the best in the world. Sure, if you need a certain level of explosiveness, agiity and balance but you don't need to be a freak in those categories.
Regarding Haaand and Mbappe: They're still young and get a lot of goodwill. People expect unfairly much from the best player in the world and both Mbappe and Haaland are doing much less outside of goals to appease the critics when the goals won't come.