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Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
- Thread starter Pexbo
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Assists are a bad metric to measure playmaking. Per assist Messi has much more great through balls, line breaking passes, switches of player, etc. than Cristiano. For Messi, thisnis obly the tip of the ice berg.
By the way, +50% uploft is definitely huge. Imagine Cristiano had scored 50% more goals than Messi, we'd never hear the end of it.
I love Diego to bits but he wasn't forced into it, even if the Camorra certainly encouraged his bad habits to control him. He always loved to party, way, way before Napoli. His drug problems began during his time at Barcelona, especially in his second season. Maradona's tragedy is that he was never protected like the modern players are. He was a genius but also a man who came from nothing and had nothing, other than his left foot. He's the prime example of someone who got too much, too fast, with no one and nothing to help him deal with it.
Beyond his skills and incredible performances with Napoli and Argentina, the era he played in where he had to jump to avoid waist high tackles, said tackles which will have their role to play in shortening of his career, I think that what the younger generations fail the most to grasp is that he was so much more than just a footballer. I grew up when he was the shit, and I've never seen a player being so adulated, inspiring so much passion than him ever since. While Pelé was more of that distant role model, Maradona was the guy who you'd love have a beer and hang around with, the anti-hero who always let his opinions be heard, right or wrong, with as much qualities as flaws. Someone anybody could relate to.
But above all, he was the embodiment of all the underdogs, fighting for them on the pitch and winning. That's something that numbers will never able able to quantify.
One of my friends is a massive CR7 fanboy. He spent most of his 20s arguing how he’s better than Messi. He admits Messi is better now and I think it’s broken him a bit.
Messi is a great player and one of the greatest players ever who achieved every major trophy available, no one can deny that, but the media polishing and the help he gets from everyone involved in the football world helped him achieve this! 5 Copa Americas in 5 years never heard of before, and once he won it they went back to once every 3 or 4 years, this WC the narrative was all about him winning, from the Qataris, FIFA, the Media it was the perfect story! the treatment of Ronaldo and Messi in the football world is just not fair, its like Good (Messi) vs Evil (Ronaldo). to say who is the GOAT is always very bias on recency and emotions, to enjoy watching a game of football I would go for R9 and Ronaldinho (won every trophy available) over anyone and they should be in the GOAT conversation.
Same with many of my friends, it’s crazy that they couldn’t see it before, they were probably just caught up in the narratives, everyone loves the underdog, and Ronaldo was always the underdog in these debates, the man who worked extra hard to match the natural God given talent of Messi.
To be honest @RedRonaldo is class as well
He is.. We had our disagreements in the past but he is a level headed guy..
please understand this. Cristiano is not In the Goat conversation, never was and never will. He’s been great a footballer but he’s in a few tiers below Maradona, Messi and Pele.
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You make some good points. They will soon have “golden” assists.
I always find it funny when people claim Messi to be oh so gifted, while Ronaldo is the hard worker. As if he wasn’t supremely and incredibly gifted by nature. As if he didn’t benefit from his incredible good injury record and a variety of natural factors that are the base for his astonishing physique. As if anyone could learn to jump that high and so on.
I Wonder if we would still get these arguments if Messi regularly posted videos of his great workouts and so on.
I Wonder if we would still get these arguments if Messi regularly posted videos of his great workouts and so on.
It’s a bit of an oversimplification but there is merit to it. Of course Cristiano Ronaldo had a lot of talent, and of course Lionel Messi has worked incredibly hard. The larger point is more how workmanlike Cristiano’s play is compared to Messi who plays like a kid doing what he loves on the street.
It’s also the reason why Messi has inarguably always been the one you would want to watch strut their stuff, even watching him rip United apart he’s created moments where it’s made me excited seeing what he does.
Exactly. Messi is the best at maxing out the impossible while Ronaldo is the best at maxing out the possible.
I'll never understand why people care so much about celebrities to the point it affects them emotionally and mentally. There's got to be some sort of deep-rooted issues going on. I mean do they realise they're never going to be actual real life friends? The obsession actually borders on creepy at times, if we're being serious
Sure. But look at Ronaldo. The guy has a body that’s basically perfect for sports and especially football in about any possible way. He has a body naturally suited to both speed and strength. I can’t come up with about anything he is lacking. If you saw the guy for the first time in your life, you’d immediately consider him made for professional sports.
And compare that to Messi. How many players his size have ever been this dominant at the point of attack? How many players with his height were ever able to dominate through the middle, as a forward? Not many.
Look at Messi and tell me, does he look like an elite athlete? Supremely physically gifted? Advantages and advantages over other players? Hardly.
He obviously is gifted. And athletic. But if you look at both players, do you honestly believe Messi is more gifted? Physically? I don’t think so. Ronaldo carries immense physical advantages over Messi. And, to his credit, spent his career improving on these advantages more and more. Which is obviously hard work.
But do you believe Messi didn’t have to work hard, to overcome his disadvantages in height and strength? Nope. That’s hard work. His technique? Hard work.
Messi is not some kid who was really good at something and suddenly became the best ever. He had to invest a lot. Like Ronaldo.
To me the logic behind this assessment doesn’t hold up. Other users even went as far as calling him the underdog. How is the physically nearly perfect Ronaldo underdog to a guy not even reaching 170cm in height, possessing next to no natural strength? That’s like claiming Goliath was the underdog, because David had a sling.
For someone who has said outrageous things like putting Di Maria and Cristiano on the same level you seem a reasonable type of person.
That is my point exactly, what is to be achieved to be considered a GOAT or criterias needed? Trophies, goals, Impact on the game? Cristiano has it all as do Messi, Pele, Maradona, and many other players. if only a WC win is needed then that's a different argument. This will always be a bias list depending on an individuals preference.
It is odd, isn't it?! I think certain people invest so much of themselves in these players that, in their minds, those players' successes become theirs as well. Fandom is a strange phenomenon generally (speaking as a united fan myself) but attaching oneself to a team is definitely more easily rationalized than to an individual player.
Ronaldinho whose peak was all too brief no way. Jesus come on now.
In fairness Di maria is a much better finals player than ronaldo, but ronaldo obviously all time is greater.
Don’t recall saying that but Di María scored in a Wc and in the America Cup finals. Please quote me where i put CR and Di María in the same level.
By finals you mean FIFA WC's or you're inclunding all in the same package? Mind though, I have the impression Di Maria had a great Champions League Final for Madrid in 2014 at Lisbon while Ronaldo scored a Penaldo and showed his body to the entire World when the score was already decided.
No problem in saying Di Maria has a better output than Cristiano in 2010, 2014 and even in this one was fundamental at a certain point. Only 2018 Cristiano was better, but for me numbers don't tell much, because his best game on a WC for me was the one where he didn't scored or assisted vs France in 2006 but everyone will mention the Spain game because he scored 3 goals, that's the way football works.
Was only trying to outsmart @Pocho I know Messi is the most complete player of his generation, what I don't take is the revisionism around Cristiano for his last years, particularly the last spell at United, I actually felt post Real Madrid he already wasn't at the same level of the best players in the World.
But between 2010 and 2015 he sure was a player out of this World, but on different things than Messi.
please show me where I said that and I’ll apologise for being an asshole, but if I didn’t say it you apologise
Perfectly put.
Purely in terms of personal preference I preferred watching R9 and Ronaldinho play, than C.Ronaldo. Both for me were better players on their day, but it’s impossible to argue against the clinical effectiveness and longevity of Cristiano. Even if, for me, he always lacked that magic, that sparkle, to create something beautiful out of nothing that some other greats could do. CR7 always had the numbers, the output to be in the GOAT debate, but he never captured my imagination. And it was that imagination that made me fall in love with football in the first place. Ronaldinho, for example, was an artist. CR7 was a surgeon.
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I know, I only saw a comment regarding Di Maria being better at WC's and it's true, the only one where Cristiano was close to his best was 2018 even if I liked a lot his individual performance in 2006 vs Frace, but no goals and no assists don't make history.
2010 under Queiroz it was terrible ultra defensive tactics, and 2014 his knee wasn't ok. His best individual tournament was 2012, but I don't agree with portuguese posters here who try to downplay some of his teammates at the time.
For example in 2012 and 2016 he couldn't do nothing without Pepe and Nani, and in 2004 or 2006 he wasn't the main protagonist, there's always a lot of revisionism.
His tournament is the Champions League, Euros next and WC's wasn't for him, he shouldn't have gone into this one and the people around him are also to blame for his refusal to accept he isn't a top player anymore.
I don’t think they attached to the celebrity, they’re more attached to the opinion and being right and then they double down on their opinion and every match they watch, they want to be proven right so they can gloat ‘see I told you’.
Then eventually they end up cheering on someone who they have no affiliation with, just so they can say their opinion is right. It’s always been around but it’s brought to extremes by social media and Ronaldo-Messi is such a long time argument that eventually people got so consumed in it and couldn’t possibly change to do so would be to admit weakness.
So no quotes of me saying that Di María was in the same level as Cristiano ? I accept your apologies.
Cristiano is a great great player. Top 5 which is incredible
It was this but I already said I don't disagree if we're talking about WC's.
Haha ok. You were half right and I half an asshole.
Ronaldo does not come close to those 3 in terms of playmaking, technique, creativity, dribbling, passing etc. therefore is in a different universe to those 3. He has never been a creative genius. He has no business to be compared to players in the top creators club like Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Zico, Pele, Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Platini as he is vastly inferior..
But he definitely is one of the top goal scorers ever so can be listed right next to Romario, R9, Gerd Muller, Pele etc. in the top goal scorers club..
The problem for Ronaldo is Messi is an elite member of both clubs comfortably unlike him and that's a huge gap..
Also, if goal scoring, impact and trophies alone determine one's status, Gerd Muller should rightfully be placed right next to those 3, not Ronaldo with 0 goals & assists in the knock-out rounds of 5 WCs..
First goal for Sporting with 17 years old dismiss some of your arguments. Like I said before, ridiculous reviews of Cristiano as a player over his carrer, like saying nonsense he never had dribbling.
Some of the posters who are saying outrageous things like this presuming they are United fans they should ask that to John O'Shea on the first time he faced a 18 years old Ronaldo at Alvalade. Next week he was at Old Trafford.
It's ridiculous the level of ignorance or hatred some show here judging his carrer on his last years or trying to make all his carrer was being a poacher and bringing Gerd Muller into conversation when in fact Muller was far from being a poacher if they really watched 90 minutes of him playing.
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Is Messi the greatest finisher of all time?
Yes
It's been a silly debate since about 2008/09 when Messi got rid of the early injuries that hindered him in his late teens/early 20's. Ronaldo might well be in the top two players of all time but he sure isn't #1, never was never will be.
Now after defending some revisionism around this days I have to say I don't agree he is on top 3. For me it's between top 4 to 7, but certainly wouldn't be by the WC's I would put him there. Top 2 no, when you have guys like Maradona or Messi, and regardless what you think everyone ranks Pele on the top 3 for some reason.
What I can say is that he is top 2 in this century, if by anything for durability and the ability to have 3 transformations as a player (2002/2008) (2009/2015) (2016/2022) , only thing I don't agree is using the playmaker skills for the conversation because he never was one in the first place.
The commentators here jizzed themselves about Ronaldo diving and scoring a penalty in his first match. Then he got a motm for that shit performance. Its mainly a social media thing to shit on Ronnie currently because he's having a very ungracious end to his career
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I mean if Messi gave a pathetic interview like that alienating fans of one of the world's biggest football clubs or generally behaved like a tit, he'd get more grief too.
Also I loved watching Ronaldhinio but he really doesn't have a case to be in that conversation.
I don't think you'd be able to find someone being honest with themself that wouldnt put messi in their top 3 of all time. Even ronaldo fans. But there are millions of football fans who wouldn't have ronaldo in their top 3.
This wouldn't even be a discussion if the media didn't want to make it one. Messi was always a superior football player and the goal and trophy biased coverage of the rivalry in the media was always unfair to him and favoring Cristiano. That obviously works in favor of Messi right now because he won a big trophy while Cristiano has only himself to blame for being without a club.
But yeah, they totally wanted Messi to win an international trophy. That's why they gave the Copa America to Brazil of all countries. The fact that he was top scorer and assister of the tournament was also just down to the other teams allowing it.
These threads have really become case studies of cognitive dissonances.
You've basically said nothing once again - you keep just making baseless assertions.
Football has improved decade by decade at different rates. Just look at the difference in the speed and the quality of football between the 1966 WC final and the 1974 WC final - are you denying football has improved? You say Ronaldo Nazario would destroy everything in his path today and I agree, however do you think he'd dominate more or less if he was transported to the sixties? Any sensible person would say the sixties, which is why I put more credence on Messi dominating the sport in his era than Pele dominating in his