That is because Maradona was an attacking midfield playmaker and Messi has been a forward his entire career.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
Did Argentina start the qualifiations with Sampaoli?
Well said, utter dross for most of the qualifying and only makes it right at the end is hardly the stuff of legends
no. he was appointed in june.
Sampaoli has now got a good eight months to sort out his tactics, team selection etc. Hope to God he does it and we get a very good Argentina NT team there.
The best managers find a way to play the best players together, he needs to figure out a way to play Dybala and Messi in the same XI. It's a colossal waste of resources otherwise.
The best managers find a way to play the best players together, he needs to figure out a way to play Dybala and Messi in the same XI. It's a colossal waste of resources otherwise.
GOAT
wow.
Always hard to compare great players from different era, but I do think Messi is even better than Maradona. Both genius on the ball, but Messi goalscoring puts him above Maradona...
Always hard to compare great players from different era, but I do think Messi is even better than Maradona. Both genius on the ball, but Messi goalscoring puts him above Maradona...
Go home Cal, you're frothing.Sure Zidane would have also scored 73 goals if only he had played a little further forward. Messi drops deep into midfield all the time. He's half forward and half playmaker.
I would have thought that the better and more logical answer would be that they played in different eras which are very hard to compare like for like. I don't think Maradona played for a club team that scored or could score as much as Messis Barca do. But from what I read and hear he wouldn't have ever matched Messi's phenomenal goalscoring either way. We can assume that Maradona would have scored more than he did but you can't assume Ronaldo/Messi type goalscoring. It's a stretch.
Huh?
So what? The ability to drop into midfield doesn't take way from the fact a player is primarily a striker. Any more than the ability to break in the box and score regularly doesn't make a Lampard a striker.
Messi has played his entire Barca career as a forward. Either on the flank in a front 3 or as a false 9 central forward. Even for Argentina save for when Maradona employed him at the tip of a diamond he has played as a second striker type of ten or as one of the front 3. He is a forward who can play make. Maradona was a midfielder who could support the attack.
I'd make such an argument if at any time I was comparing their goal scoring ability. I never did. Maradona was never a true forward nor oriented to being one. So comparing his goal ratio to that of Messi or C. Ronaldo is truly a non starter, which is the point I was making. Trying to claim either of those are superior to Maradona because they comfortably outscored him is a questionable premise for such a claim.
You see the irony, right?
The man is Argentina. That's it.
You can spin that sophistry about nominal positions as much as you want. The fact is that he is the only elite playmaker AND elite goalscorer in modern football.
People here still doubting Messi? How funny is that?
That's the thing. Ronaldo is an amazing player as well, but as far as versatility goes Messi is the best. He is a CAM, RW, ST in one. Unbelievable dribbling skill, playmaking ability and finishing.
The man is football
This coming from a die hard Ronaldo fan makes it all the more hilarious.
trying to think of another player you could say that about.. hmm.. scored 1 goal in the whole of qualifying, then.. hat-trick in the playoffs? Any ideas Cal? ?
I would love to just see them try and go all out attack and just see what happens. Argentina get way too political, overthink it, become negative and never really hit the heights they should.
If their strength is attack, commit to that and eventually the combinations and slick football will come. Way too much chop and change at the moment.
Well Maradona's playmaking qualities should be used as an argument of his superiority (if it was better) and Messi's goalscoring prowess should be used in the same manner if he is capable of the level of goalscoring Maradona wasn't capable.
I've never definitively compared Messi to a player I saw little of rather than week in week put. But my point is that Messi isn't your standard forward. He can play make is a statement we can apply to Zlatan. Likes to drop deep and do his thing. Messi is genuinely as good a player maker as anyone in the game. On top of being one of the all time great goalscorer. The other point was that we can't merely discard goalscorer or playmaking and pin in to position or role. If you think Maradona didn't show the same goalscoring ability because of position, well, maybe he wasn't capable of scoring 90 plus goals in a year regardless of position. You have to be capable of doing it. Many playmakers can be played further forward but won't achieve that. Same with playmaking. If Messi is playing as a forward, do you believe that he'd playmake as well as Maradona if played deeper? It's not a mere difference of roles at times. What they're better at will be used to prove they're better, naturally.
Messi and Dybala should play behind Aguero.
Set the team up to not give much away and try feed Dybala and Messi the ball as much as possible would be the best option for them seeing as they don't have much of a midfield in my opinion
Set the team up to not give much away and try feed Dybala and Messi the ball as much as possible would be the best option for them seeing as they don't have much of a midfield in my opinion
Isn't Aguero terrible for Argentina? How about Icardi upfront? Or a 2 striker system with Messi and Dybala?
Greatest of all time.
Think just looking at Messi's and Maradona's goalscoring numbers is making it more lopsided that it really is. Just a different era.
I don't think Maradona is nearly as good at scoring as Messi is, but I'm sure he would pull some fancy numbers today too. Maradona was a goal per game player early in his career.
I don't think Maradona is nearly as good at scoring as Messi is, but I'm sure he would pull some fancy numbers today too. Maradona was a goal per game player early in his career.
Kun has been terrible for Argentina but so has just about every scorer from Di Maria to Gonzo. Sampaoli abandoned the trident of Icardi & Dybala when he first got the job as they did not gel well initially and when qualification became vital he reverted to making Messi the focus. I suspect he will now look to see how he can best integrate that front 3 for Russia
Jesus, you knew that when Messi scored an hattrick against a 2nd gear equador, the fanboys would all come out of the closet. I don't understand the need to claim he is the goat constantly as if that fact would make up for your insecurities.
Can you imagine this place if Messi does on the WC what Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele, etc, did on the past? The wankfest would make it unbearable. I like Messi and I'm happy especially for Sampaoli who is a fine coach. The wc would be poorer without Argentina but some people here really need to get a grip.
Can you imagine this place if Messi does on the WC what Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele, etc, did on the past? The wankfest would make it unbearable. I like Messi and I'm happy especially for Sampaoli who is a fine coach. The wc would be poorer without Argentina but some people here really need to get a grip.
That's not Linekers argument.
Maradona had a .37 scoring ratio for Argentina while Messi has a .5 record, hardly streets ahead. Mind you Messi hasn't really been past his prime yet like Diego was for a lot of his last appearances. Interestingly Zico had a .67 scoring rate, Platini had a .56 and Baggio had a .48. Messi is like those players, a good old fashion attacking midfielder. He hangs around in the 'hole' and waits for the ball, then if the opposition condenses the lines, then he goes into the midfield and try to make something happen from there. Messi in the past used to go to the right when the same thing happened but it doesn't seem that he does that anymore. The big difference is that Maradona could drive the team forward a lot more. How many times in matches do you see Messi in his own half?
So salty.
Sorry but it seems like you never saw Maradona play.
Maradona was not a typical Zidane/Iniesta like midfield playmaker, he was more of a second striker.
Obviously comparing his goal stats vs the likes of Messi and Ronaldo is ridiculous because, Maradona actually never played for dominating teams like these two nor was he as clinical as either. If you think Maradona was a pass-first kind of a player, you are massively wrong.
Nice exclusion of club level there. What's the difference in goals there?
Messi drives his team forward all the time. He's also at the half way like a lot.
I think Rooney the striker scores lot more than Rooney the atk midfielder says it all, as he drops back a lot in both role.
What's the maximum height allowed in the Messi wank club?
Some interesting points, but again context must be taken into consideration. In those times there was a relative abundance of classic 10s able to drive team forward and be prolific themselves. Not so much today, as defences have evolved, becoming increasingly more athletic and intense. That made classic 10s, with their individualistic style based on creativity and skill, almost obsolete. You won't see anyone nowadays consistently taking the ball in their own half and bossing the game from goal to goal. It is literally impossible to do that anymore, defences are closing down and pressing too quickly. But even in that context, Messi is still able to play in classic playmaker style on the highest level, and outscore them all. He would arguably be even more unstoppable in a previous era, his skill level is that high, and he's more physically resilient than most classic 10s were.
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What are you on about? This doesn't even make sense.
Greatest Player in History
Didn't want to say GOAT
Didn't want to say GOAT
Why would I? I consider Sneijder was robbed of a trophy that year. Difference is I don't go into the CR thread to talk about things I don't like about his career or to kick you down when you're high.
I don't need to defend every Ballon d'Or Messi won to hype his status hiding behind some absurd thing like edging the win on a single hat-trick game where not even a trophy was on the line, but I do find this situation funny because now it's basically a lose-lose for the ones giving away the individual awards.
If they give it to Messi they go further showing their true colours that you don't win the whole thing with trophies or yearly consistence, it's just a drama generator between Messi and Ronaldo and they give the trophy to the one that's more hyped at the end of the year, like a teenager chooses his girlfriend for summer.
If they give it to Ronaldo you have to wonder what prompted that same decision in 2013, when his whole merits were winning a league with Real Madrid and the hat-trick vs Sweden (similar to Messi with a Cup, better yearly goalscoring stats and all that) while there was a team that got ignored after winning a treble in a smashing way.
Need I to remind you that it wasn't only one guy who "robbed" Ribery from the 2013 trophy? Even if Sweden doesn't happen and the vote wasn't extended Messi was second ahead of Ribery, that's why I laugh that we're now in this position, this further exposes this whole Ballon d'Or race as the farce it has been for a decade.
More than enough
So funny how after every great display from Messi you guys have to come with the same points (Maradona, didn't win every single game last season, Portuguese Charisteas...). It's almost like you're trying to cover the sun with your finger, you know there's already a thread almost dedicated to talk about those topics, right?
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Did his third goal took a deflection? I don't understand how he managed to chip the goalkeeper from that position other wise.
Was referring to your arguments on Messi goalscoring stats being comparable to Maradona one as he is basically dropping back in playmaking role, despite the fact that he starts his position primarily as a forward.