Lionel Messi - Performances

[totaalvoetbal]

The 5 kings: Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Di Stefano?

Yes. They have thier own table and Messi has a seat on it.

 

[duffer]

Certainly less defensive than before but Chelsea still didn't open up quite like they do against teams in the PL. Hazard and Fabregas were nowhere to be found.

Playing against Barcelona is a bit different to playing against Watford! It's unrealistic to think we could've been more attacking than we were. We got the result we did because we're not as good as them, not because we didn't attack enough (we created a decent amount of chances, hitting the woodwork 4 times over 2 games).

Hazard and Fab were both shite, no doubt about that.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Best player ever.... ever.

 

[Peyroteo]

International football by it's very nature is inconsistent. Think about it, it's different squads that you'll meet up with once every 3 or 4 months whereas at club level you're playing and training with the same players every single day.

I wouldn't really say he's inconsistent for Argentina either. He's always the one that does something to win them the match. He obviously isn't the player he is at Barcelona but what I say above should be factored in as well as quality of teammates. They wouldn't be at the World Cup if it wasn't for him. They wouldn't have reached the last final or the last two Copa finals.

Why not? They didn't concede a single goal on the way to the WC final (group stages aside) and that's not the merit of Messi, they'd still have a good chance of making it and in the 2016 Copa America they played Venezuela and the US to get to the final, they could have made it if I was in the team instead of Messi. They actually beat Chile in the group stages without Messi playing and then lost the final with him on the pitch. It's football, things are never that straightforward.

 

[RedDevil@84]

They wouldn't have reached the last final

Mascherano and Di Maria

 

[Pocho]

Why not? They didn't concede a single goal on the way to the WC final (group stages aside) and that's not the merit of Messi, they'd still have a good chance of making it and in the 2016 Copa America they played Venezuela and the US to get to the final, they could have made it if I was in the team instead of Messi. They actually beat Chile in the group stages without Messi playing and then lost the final with him on the pitch. It's football, things are never that straightforward.

didn't lose to Chile, it was a draw.

 

[Josh 76]

Yes. They have thier own table and Messi has a seat on it.

Growing up in the 80s and 90s when football wasn't on 7 days a week and World Cups were the only time you saw South American footballers, there were only 2 players that were classed as immortals. Pele and Maradona. There have been amazing players in that time, but for me they were always a level below these two. But now, 2 has become 3.

 

[lsd]

Best player ever.... ever.

Absolute nonsense post , you cannot say someone now is the best in history .The sheer ego on people who post stuff like this .

Why is it not enough to say someone is the best now or the best you have seen? but no somehow people feel they are so all knowing they can judge on players from eras they never witnessed

 

[Pink Moon]

Absolute nonsense post , you cannot say someone now is the best in history .The sheer ego on people who post stuff like this .

Why is it not enough to say someone is the best now or the best you have seen? but no somehow people feel they are so all knowing they can judge on players from eras they never witnessed

Oh he mad.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Absolute nonsense post , you cannot say someone now is the best in history .The sheer ego on people who post stuff like this .

Why is it not enough to say someone is the best now or the best you have seen? but no somehow people feel they are so all knowing they can judge on players from eras they never witnessed

Mate it’s called extrapolation.

 

[lsd]

Mate it’s called extrapolation.

No its not

 

[Hoof the ball]

I feel that retrospective comparisons are difficult to make when it involves a modern professional and a classic professional. Variations in the development of the game, individually, technically, tactically and scientifically have made comparison discussions fruitless for the most part. How would a 1960's Pele fare if implanted into the modern age with less space, more developed systems and such? well, that would be an unfair thing to do, wouldn't it? for any meaningful comparison to be made, the likes of Maradona and Pele would have to exist in this present time, in their peak (more or less) and have the benefit of being coached, trained and developed within the systems that modern players are entitled to.

Is Messi better than Maradona? Pele? We can't possibly know whether those players would thrive and match the output of Messi in this modern age, or whether they would have exceeded Messi even. All we're left with is speculation and guess work.

 

[Twiggy]

From what I've experienced along the years that only holds true as long as one of the two actually got some sort of brain damage. A fully functional brain of let's say a healthy trucker got pretty much the same potential as that of a scientist. What defines the difference between them are their subconscious learning strategies and those strategies can be aquired. Some peoples' brains just learn to use them naturally because of beneficial environmental influences (visual, auditory and kinesthetic experiences) while others start habituating less effective strategies. I'm currently helping dyslexic kids below the age of 10 to aquire helpful learning strategies and some of them improved dramatically after just 2 hours of training. I believe pretty much every person on the planet with a healthy brain can learn to use it more effectivley.

I believe talent is a very real thing and that it's mostly biological as well as to some degree psychological. There are people who's sense of balance is naturally superior to others but as long as that person doesn't develop an interest in gymnastics and got the fitting (subconscious) motivational strategies as well as a decent kinesthetic learing strategy, he propably won't benefit much from it. The combination of fitting (supportive of each other) biological and psychological traits makes what I'd call talent. In the case of Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo it's a rare combination that's different for each of them but can be very successfully aplied in the context of football.

This was all rather interesting

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Some players do maintain their standards especially those fortunate enough to play for a national team that's made from a dominant club. What we can say from Messi and Ronaldo is that a team has a huge impact on the performance levels of a star regardless of how good they are or perceived to be.

This is true for every sportsman in every team sport. People love fantasizing about individuals achieving greatness all on their own (somehow) and it's just that - a fantasy. If you want that, go watch tennis.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Absolute nonsense post , you cannot say someone now is the best in history .The sheer ego on people who post stuff like this .

Why is it not enough to say someone is the best now or the best you have seen? but no somehow people feel they are so all knowing they can judge on players from eras they never witnessed

Agree but you're being a bit melodramatic (OMG how dare you say that!!?). But people do it the other way around too.

 

[SER19]

Absolute nonsense post , you cannot say someone now is the best in history .The sheer ego on people who post stuff like this .

Why is it not enough to say someone is the best now or the best you have seen? but no somehow people feel they are so all knowing they can judge on players from eras they never witnessed

I see the point you're making, but don't you think it' being pedantic? People don't have to qualify every statement with exactness, if we did that in every discussion pretty much any conversation would be unintelligible.

Separately if somebody wants to call a player the best ever as they are so sure there just can't have been somebody better that's also ok. It's a bit like saying somebody can't call a restaurant or hotel the best in the world unless they've eaten or stayed in every single one. I wouldn't let it bother me

 

[soap]

I feel that retrospective comparisons are difficult to make when it involves a modern professional and a classic professional. Variations in the development of the game, individually, technically, tactically and scientifically have made comparison discussions fruitless for the most part. How would a 1960's Pele fare if implanted into the modern age with less space, more developed systems and such? well, that would be an unfair thing to do, wouldn't it? for any meaningful comparison to be made, the likes of Maradona and Pele would have to exist in this present time, in their peak (more or less) and have the benefit of being coached, trained and developed within the systems that modern players are entitled to.

Is Messi better than Maradona? Pele? We can't possibly know whether those players would thrive and match the output of Messi in this modern age, or whether they would have exceeded Messi even. All we're left with is speculation and guess work.

Very true. If you were to send Shane Long back in time to 1960 he would run riot and score for fun in all likelihood, so saying that Pele played against crap defenses kind of misses the point for me.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I feel that retrospective comparisons are difficult to make when it involves a modern professional and a classic professional. Variations in the development of the game, individually, technically, tactically and scientifically have made comparison discussions fruitless for the most part. How would a 1960's Pele fare if implanted into the modern age with less space, more developed systems and such? well, that would be an unfair thing to do, wouldn't it? for any meaningful comparison to be made, the likes of Maradona and Pele would have to exist in this present time, in their peak (more or less) and have the benefit of being coached, trained and developed within the systems that modern players are entitled to.

Is Messi better than Maradona? Pele? We can't possibly know whether those players would thrive and match the output of Messi in this modern age, or whether they would have exceeded Messi even. All we're left with is speculation and guess work.

Football ability is timeless because the fundamentals of the game haven't changed or been improved on. New age players aren't taught better or different techniques. The only real difference is in the fitness department and that wouldn't take all that long to improve.

 

[RooneyLegend]

This is true for every sportsman in every team sport. People love fantasizing about individuals achieving greatness all on their own (somehow) and it's just that - a fantasy. If you want that, go watch tennis.

Can't think of other stars of other sports who's difference is as profound as there's is in performance or output. It's too big to be ignored.

 

[Daysleeper]

Football ability is timeless because the fundamentals of the game haven't changed or been improved on. New age players aren't taught better or different techniques. The only real difference is in the fitness department and that wouldn't take all that long to improve.

What? Of course they are, the football being played in the last twenty years is much better than the football being played in Pele’s prime. There have been some revolutionary tactics that have changed the game as time went on. The attention of detail and planning that goes into the modern game (for just about all sports really) is constantly increasing. The level of stats to help managers game is greater than ever before.

 

[littleman]

What? Of course they are, the football being played in the last twenty years is much better than the football being played in Pele’s prime. There have been some revolutionary tactics that have changed the game as time went on. He attention of detail and planning that goes into the modern game (for just about all sports really) is constantly increasing. The level of stats to help managers game is greater than ever before.

Technique. Like trapping the ball or passing.

Not tactics

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Can't think of other stars of other sports who's difference is as profound as there's is in performance or output. It's too big to be ignored.

Do you know other stars with the same set of circumstances? If not then you're not really in a position to call this 'too big'. In order to avoid unnecessary shock, you only have to look at the difference in the teams and the nature of the sport to realise that it's only natural. Not sure why people pretend things should the same in a totally different environment. I think it's because of the lack if importance given to the 'team' aspect of a team sport.

 

[Treble]

Hope he's fresh for Russia. In Brazil, he didn't look fit enough to have a great tournament.

 

[Laurentiu amt]

Yeah he's definitely a touch slower much like Aguero is these days. Still phenomenal footballers. He's going to go on a while.

I'm scratching my head in thinking how he will decline in the next few years. I mean he's gonna lose some more speed, but with those quick turns and passes I still think he'll be amazing until he's 35-36.

 

[Ishdalar]

Why not? They didn't concede a single goal on the way to the WC final (group stages aside) and that's not the merit of Messi, they'd still have a good chance of making it and in the 2016 Copa America they played Venezuela and the US to get to the final, they could have made it if I was in the team instead of Messi. They actually beat Chile in the group stages without Messi playing and then lost the final with him on the pitch. It's football, things are never that straightforward.

You're the one making it straightforward, he's one of the most talented creators in football's history and that puts pressure to take extra measures stopping him, It's easier for Argentina to defend better against less attacking players.

Tweet

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(The tragedy in 0:12 for example, he beats two guys and gets Argentina out, while two players overlap in the wing and then fail to pass the ball to him)

He draws 2, 3 or even 4 players, dribbles past 3 guys on his own half and doesn't lose the ball a lot. Now how great would a midfield with Banega, Gago and Enzo Perez/Pastore be? They'd lose the ball twice the times Messi does to the same competition, which means less defenders for Argentina, bigger work load and more chances against.

It's the same with Barcelona, he generates gravity further away from Ter Stegen, our rivals commit 2 or even 3 players to cover him instead of an extra winger or AM, what he does attacking, has an echo in our defense scheme, it's why you can't put a real value on what Xavi or Modric do for a team, the way they help the team doesn't get highlights.

Spoiler: Finals heatmaps

Most people critize him for not scoring with Argentina at the rate he does for Barcelona, but he influences triple the amount of pitch, if he did that with a similar scoring ratio he'd be a monster.

What's the difference between Simeone (Mascherano), Veron (Banega), Ortega (Di Maria), Batistuta (Agüero), Aimar (Lamela?), Kily (Lavezzi), Piojo and Crespo (Higuain) getting stuck in the group phase in Korea or QF in France, vs Argentina reaching the final in Brazil? Well, for starters the latter had Leo Messi. Or maybe you think that Zabaleta, Demichelis, Otamendi, Garay and Rojo are way better than Ayala, Chamot, Zanetti, Walter Samuel and Placente... because not, they aren't.

Everyone judges Argentina highly, since Maradona they always failed in the World Cup, haven't won a Copa America since 1993, they played 3 finals in 11 tournaments without Leo, and 3 in 4 tournaments in the Messi era, that should show something.

They haven't lacked quality individuals since the 90's, they just plainly suck at international level. But somehow the world has bought on the crap that they're at Brazil level, maybe until 1990, but after Italy 90' they're not even close.

 

[harms]

Still I believe his biological traits like a low center of gravity, muscular structure, sense of balance etc. in that exact composition are an integral part to his capabilities as well as his limitations as a player.

The most important of all is the reaction speed, surely. It's also something that can hardly be trained. He sees what's happening around him and he is able to analyse and make a decision before an average player even fully understands the situation.

 

[Peyroteo]

You're the one making it straightforward, he's one of the most talented creators in football's history and that puts pressure to take extra measures stopping him, It's easier for Argentina to defend better against less attacking players.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

He draws 2, 3 or even 4 players, dribbles past 3 guys on his own half and doesn't lose the ball a lot. Now how great would a midfield with Banega, Gago and Enzo Perez/Pastore be? They'd lose the ball twice the times Messi does to the same competition, which means less defenders for Argentina, bigger work load and more chances against.

It's the same with Barcelona, he generates gravity further away from Ter Stegen, our rivals commit 2 or even 3 players to cover him instead of an extra winger or AM, what he does attacking, has an echo in our defense scheme, it's why you can't put a real value on what Xavi or Modric do for a team, the way they help the team doesn't get highlights.

Spoiler: Finals heatmaps

Most people critize him for not scoring with Argentina at the rate he does for Barcelona, but he influences triple the amount of pitch, if he did that with a similar scoring ratio he'd be a monster.

What's the difference between Simeone (Mascherano), Veron (Banega), Ortega (Di Maria), Batistuta (Agüero), Aimar (Lamela?), Kily (Lavezzi), Piojo and Crespo (Higuain) getting stuck in the group phase in Korea or QF in France, vs Argentina reaching the final in Brazil? Well, for starters the latter had Leo Messi. Or maybe you think that Zabaleta, Demichelis, Otamendi, Garay and Rojo are way better than Ayala, Chamot, Zanetti, Walter Samuel and Placente... because not, they aren't.

Everyone judges Argentina highly, since Maradona they always failed in the World Cup, didn't win a Copa America since 1993, they played 3 finals in 11 tournaments without Leo, and 3 in 4 tournaments in the Messi era, that should show something.

They haven't lacked quality individuals since the 90's, they just plainly suck at international level. But somehow the world has bought on the crap that they're at Brazil level, maybe until 1990, but after Italy 90' they're not even close.

They're not Brazil but they're Argentina for fecks sake. Are you seriously trying to pretend Argentina should actually be happy with the last 4 tournaments? It's been embarassing. Getting to 3 out of 4 finals isn't an achievement for Argentina... they got 2 Copa Americas in 2 years in a row with Brazil being crap and still didn't win it. The names of the teams they played to get to those finals speak for themselves.

Messi's their best player but he's most certainly part of the problem too no matter how many excuses there are (and there will always be more), he comes nowhere even close to being as good as you just pretended. That fantasy you just created of Messi for Argentina influencing triple the amount of pitch, being responsible for Argentina's great defensive record and constantly making brilliant passes and dribbles for Argentina while their strikers miss everything is bullshit and he's nowhere near as effective at that as he is for Barcelona, his goalscoring numbers come way down too. It's not just the fact he's playing in South America either... Neymar has no problem scoring for fun for example so why does Messi score over once a game for Barcelona and in official games for Argentina he doesn't even score 1 goal every 2 games? Has there ever even been a player whose goalscoring numbers go down by such a big amount when playing for his country?

When people say Messi's poor for Argentina they aren't comparing him to Higuain and Aguero, they're comparing him to all time greats. And they're right to do so. This Messi generation has been an embarassment for Argentina and the World Cup in Russia will be a last chance to redeem themselves, for over a decade I hear Messi makes the players around him better while his Barcelona teammates succeed at anything they do and his argentinan teammates go to shit playing next to him. Great players elevate teams in a way Messi hasn't done for his country. Either him and Argentina have a very good World Cup or he'll have a big stain on his legacy, no matter how many excuses get thrown around.

And just to be clear, I still put him up there with the best that's ever played the game regardless of all of this and I want them to find some redemption in Russia because I think Messi, the other players and Argentina deserve it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

They're not Brazil but they're Argentina for fecks sake. Are you seriously trying to pretend Argentina should actually be happy with the last 4 tournaments? It's been embarassing. Getting to 3 out of 4 finals isn't an achievement for Argentina... they got 2 Copa Americas in 2 years in a row with Brazil being crap and still didn't win it. The names of the teams they played to get to those finals speak for themselves.

Messi's their best player but he's most certainly part of the problem too no matter how many excuses there are (and there will always be more), he comes nowhere even close to being as good as you just pretended. That fantasy you just created of Messi for Argentina influencing triple the amount of pitch, being responsible for Argentina's great defensive record and constantly making brilliant passes and dribbles for Argentina while their strikers miss everything is bullshit and he's nowhere near as effective at that as he is for Barcelona, his goalscoring numbers come way down too. It's not just the fact he's playing in South America either... Neymar has no problem scoring for fun for example so why does Messi score over once a game for Barcelona and in official games for Argentina he doesn't even score 1 goal every 2 games? Has there ever even been a player whose goalscoring numbers go down by such a big amount when playing for his country?

When people say Messi's poor for Argentina they aren't comparing him to Higuain and Aguero, they're comparing him to all time greats. And they're right to do so. This Messi generation has been an embarassment for Argentina and the World Cup in Russia will be a last chance to redeem themselves, for over a decade I hear Messi makes the players around him better while his Barcelona teammates succeed at anything they do and his argentinan teammates go to shit playing next to him. Great players elevate teams in a way Messi hasn't done for his country. Either him and Argentina have a very good World Cup or he'll have a big stain on his legacy, no matter how many excuses get thrown around.

And just to be clear, I still put him up there with the best that's ever played the game regardless of all of this and I want them to find some redemption in Russia because I think Messi, the other players and Argentina deserve it.

He is correct. And fantasy is the stuff you make up regarding the other guy.

The rest is just biased bollocks.

 

[Peyroteo]

He is correct. And fantasy is the stuff you make up regarding the other guy.

The rest is just biased bollocks.

You're talking biased bollocks. As always. I mean at least I watch the matches before actually having an opinion on them.

 

[2mufc0]

Messi has done well for Argentina but not being able to get over the final hurdle will hurt his legacy in these all time discussions. Then again Cruyff has a similar blank spot in his CV but imo is a top 5 player of all time so it's not the most critical thing but imo is a consideration.

To say he's the problem with the team is bollox though.

 

[Lord SInister]

Messi should cheat, like dive for pk or something.
Argentina dont win WCs without corruption.

 

[Gio]

Messi has done well for Argentina but not being able to get over the final hurdle will hurt his legacy in these all time discussions. Then again Cruyff has a similar blank spot in his CV but imo is a top 5 player of all time so it's not the most critical thing but imo is a consideration.

To say he's the problem with the team is bollox though.

The difference with Cruyff is that his 1974 World Cup is comfortably among the top 3-5 tournament performances of all time.

 

[Schneckerl]

Has there ever even been a player whose goalscoring numbers go down by such a big amount when playing for his country?

His name is Cristiano Ronaldo and he has 12 goals in 34 euro/wc final games

 

[pregra]

You're talking biased bollocks. As always. I mean at least I watch the matches before actually having an opinion on them.

Haha, are you serious? Hate to drag CRonaldo into this but the way you are praising his intl performances/euro 2016 is as biased as it comes. Messi’s CA 15 & 16 was miles better.

 

[pregra]

His name is Cristiano Ronaldo and he has 12 goals in 34 euro/wc final games

This. And that’s his whole game,to be at the end of attacks. Shame Messi doesn’t get to play the Faroes,andorra etc on a regular basis. Then this guy would maybe give Messi some praise.

 

[Peyroteo]

His name is Cristiano Ronaldo and he has 12 goals in 34 euro/wc final games

His goal record in tournaments is still better than Messi's and he's playing for Portugal... That's not the point though and this is not the thread to compare them, I was talking about Messi's performances and pointing out that out of all the great goalscorers, Messi's goalscoring is the one who goes down when playing for his country.

His club career is imaculate, he's done it all but you look at all the all time greats he's ranked alongside and pretty much all of them have have done more for his country.

Haha, are you serious? Hate to drag CRonaldo into this but the way you are praising his intl performances/euro 2016 is as biased as it comes. Messi’s CA 15 & 16 was miles better.

Yeah right Over half of your posts here are about him.

And no, they weren't. At all. I didn't praise Ronaldo or even mentioned him at all and he has nothing to do with this discussion. If you want to compare them go to the Messi v Ronaldo thread.

This. And that’s his whole game,to be at the end of attacks. Shame Messi doesn’t get to play the Faroes,andorra etc on a regular basis. Then this guy would maybe give Messi some praise.

I said he was up there alongside the greatest to have ever played this sport and you say I don't praise him Is it even possible to give higher praise than that?

Did you miss my post praising him here after the Chelsea game? You seem to have taken what I said the wrong way.

 

[Raru9]

Messi is the best player of the world. No discussion about that. His show against Chelsea is only 'one more' of his carrer.

 

[shr89]

What a finish and that celebration too !

 

[Pocho]

Messi should cheat, like dive for pk or something.
Argentina dont win WCs without corruption.

Still butthurted here

 

[Nucks]

Growing up in the 80s and 90s when football wasn't on 7 days a week and World Cups were the only time you saw South American footballers, there were only 2 players that were classed as immortals. Pele and Maradona. There have been amazing players in that time, but for me they were always a level below these two. But now, 2 has become 3.

Aren't those the lyrics to a spice girls song?!