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Zehner

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I also think there is a type of greed in the way they play at the moment too, not really helping their team-mates, for example in Ronaldo's case, he never gets injured.

But his risk of injury is so low because he never makes a tackle or gets in a difficult situation where he might pull up. In Ronaldo's head, an injury = a few months out = risk of not scoring. Compared to say Cavani who will run all day, but will risk injuries and pain. Ronaldo doesn't risk any pain because it will hinder his quests for goals. Messi is similar. What's also interesting apart from their scoring records, is their appearances. High-intensity forwards are not supposed to be breaking appearance records like they are. The reason they are is because of their complete lack of effort off the pitch. It's conserving energy so they can profit in very specific moments. It is in a way a selfish style.
Yes, exactly. That's what many people who admire the two don't want to hear: Their unreal stats partly stem from the exceptional roles they played in star packed super squads. Sure, they justified their respective status through their quality but in the end it definitely boosted up their stats in a way that most likely would not have been possible in previous eras. It's context that doesn't take anything away from their class and accolades but people who only look at goal stats and want to compare them to put their idol on a pedestal don't like that.

As said in my initial post, I think the real question is if these exceptional roles are still worth the costs, not if the two have fundamentally regressed that much physically. Right now, the teams at the top are very cohesive and they don't feature players who don't have to press. But this might also be the case because those teams don't have the money to shoehorn these players in. Who knows how good City would be with Messi in the squad. They could be better or they could be worse. Or vice versa: Do Messi and Ronaldo look like they have regressed because they actually regressed or because their roles are outdated/their squads aren't as cohesive and superior as they used to be?
 

Swoobs

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He just needs competent coaching and a midfield behind. Ironically him and Ronaldo will regret not joining Pep City. CL and Ballon Dor was basically guaranteed there with either of those 2.
I am not too sure either of them can do Pep’s pressing style. They are both lazy as f
 

Jackal981

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People are going to blame teams when they do things like appoint Pirlo as the manager, yes.
He's a butthurt Juve fan I tried to ignore him. Ronaldo failed at United ? What is this guy smoking. He bailed Ole multiple times and Ole was gonna get sacked earlier if not for him. And he makes us go through CL group. As we can see Juve are doing very well without him right ?
 

genardk

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He's a butthurt Juve fan I tried to ignore him. Ronaldo failed at United ? What is this guy smoking. He bailed Ole multiple times and Ole was gonna get sacked earlier if not for him. And he makes us go through CL group. As we can see Juve are doing very well without him right ?
I see many United fans in this forum as well as football pundits thinking that United regressed with him just like when he was at Juve, I guess they are all butthurt as well. See where United finished last season and where they are now with him. United lost 6 games in the entire season last year and they already have 5 losses in 12 games this season with him with Bruno, Greenwood etc. all underperforming not to mention the concerning fact that even the lowest ranked teams in PL are able to dominate United this year unlike last year..

Him scoring against inferior La Liga 13th Villareal, Swiss giants Young Boys, and Atalanta with 5 main players missing seems to have clouded your judgment. It was the same story at Juve..Not a single coach lasted more than a year with him in the team, not even Allegri or Sarri..

A loss to Chelsea this weekend as expected, there will be many questioning his contribution in this forum as usual.. A win against Young Boys with him scoring, then people will start calling him the GOAT, that's been the norm so far..
 
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BalanceUnAutreJoint

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His overall career,popularity and fame carried him to that 7th ballon d'or if the rumors are true.

In term of G+A (which his fans loved to use every previous year) he's not even the 2nd or 3rd best player of the year and Lewandowski is pretty much far ahead of anyone.
 

roonster09

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His overall career,popularity and fame carried him to that 7th ballon d'or if the rumors are true.

In term of G+A (which his fans loved to use every previous year) he's not even the 2nd or 3rd best player of the year and Lewandowski is pretty much far ahead of anyone.
Yeah, till June-July it was close between Messi and Lewa but overall this year it's not close.

Lewa should win the award, hopefully he will win it.
 

Water Melon

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His overall career,popularity and fame carried him to that 7th ballon d'or if the rumors are true.

In term of G+A (which his fans loved to use every previous year) he's not even the 2nd or 3rd best player of the year and Lewandowski is pretty much far ahead of anyone.
Fully agree. It will be a travesty if Messi wins Ballon d'Or this year. Lewandowski is the most obvious and deserving candidate.
 

genardk

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His overall career,popularity and fame carried him to that 7th ballon d'or if the rumors are true.

In term of G+A (which his fans loved to use every previous year) he's not even the 2nd or 3rd best player of the year and Lewandowski is pretty much far ahead of anyone.
Context matters.

G+A in La Liga is no comparable to G+A in Bundesliga.. Tbf, nobody cares about Bundesliga. If Ligue 1 (ranked 5th) is a farmers league, then so is Bundesliga (ranked 4th).
Lewa would struggle with current Barca. Messi is one of the greatest playmakers, dribblers and goalscorers of all time whereas Lewa is one of the greatest strikers ever, but cannot run the game, cannot dribble past players. His creativity, passing skills is not comparable to Messi. What Messi achieved with inferior Barca in a superior league is more impressive than what Lewa did in Bundesliga with superior Bayern, a one-team league that Bayern has been winning 9 years in a row.. If you are playing for Bayern or PSG, you need to win the CL or have an amazing international tournament to have a claim on Ballon D'or, domestic titles/performance alone just does not cut it.

For most press and fans that are aware of both players' achievements, Messi is a clear choice for 2021, that's why he has been the oddsmakers top choice. This is not an award for 2020+2021. Lewa should have been given the one for 2020.

La Liga (2nd most competitive league according to UEFA rankings)>>>Bundesliga (4th most competitive league)

Copa MVP + La Liga best forward + Copa Del Rey MVP >>> Bundesliga best forward with Bayern in a 1-team league
La Liga top scorer + Copa top scorer + Copa most assists >>> Bundesliga top scorer
International Player of the Tournament: Messi (1) >>> Lewa (0)
MOTM: Messi (27) >>> Lewa (13)

I am not even comparing their playmaking stats like chances created, key passes, no of successful dribbles etc..as there is nothing to compare..
 
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Son

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I agree.

What you say might be a bit over the top - but ultimately some fell in love with the pure technical ability of Messi whilst others fell in love with the mental ability of Ronaldo to do it for any team, under any league, under any manager under any tactics that didn't even properly get the best out of him. The guy is now doing better in the hardest league in the world, under the worst manager of the Premiership, under a team that has no tactical style to their play.

That's ultimately what Barcelona was for Messi - it was a place he could show and be the amazing technical ability god of this world. He was playing with a Barcelona team that after Pep's tenure had the possesion game stitched in to their DNA that you saw it under other managers. Players like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Puyol and others were there for varying times, playing the Barcelona football for the Spain National team - able to play to a pure template that made the football look extremely simplified yet perfect and a rhythm "on the floor" that Messi's was just the cherry on top of the cake, doing skilkfull stuff like juggling the ball above the goalkeeper before smashing the goal in.

An absolutely wonderful goal but do I see him doing and scoring those goals for Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's United even at his prime? Not really. Should he do better in Ligue 1 with a manager like Pochettino when playing with players like Neymar, mbappe, verrati and others - people may make excuses now but yes he should be doing better.

Maybe it's too early to talk like this, all he needs is one goal in the whole rest of the season - in the PSG UCL Final and people will talk about how much of a success he has been; you see this with how they talk about his one CL goal vs City so far. You can't really complain at that point.

It's too early to talk - but I think people like me and you are just generally seeing what we always knew, some players can be the best when the team that's been built to play a type of football that only enhances your abilities as a footballer - Messi would look better as a part of Barcelona than a part of Stoke football team because of how Barcelona plays their football even without Messi. Then theirs the way the whole league plays their football, how La Liga chooses to defend, impose their physicality, or even chooses to attack in a more technical way than a physical way (what level the ball is kept at etc) will ultimately help how Barcelona have to defend themselves and have the ability to play a counter attack anyway isn't it?

Anyway, it's too soon. He can have some time to adapt to PSG and all he really needs is to score a single goal in the UCL Final for him to look like a success story again.

However, I've heard rumours that Messi might have a transfer back to Barcelona in the up and coming future - that would be disssapointing.
This point of Messi’s career doesn’t really matter if you ask me. It’s like judging George Best at what he did in the New York Cosmos.

Messi has already proven to be the most consistent ridiculously talented player of all time for years. He dragged that Barcelona team along for years as easily the best player on the planet.

He’s free to not care so much now he’s done it all and who can blame him. The fire doesn’t last forever. Played so much football it’s only natural.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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His overall career,popularity and fame carried him to that 7th ballon d'or if the rumors are true.

In term of G+A (which his fans loved to use every previous year) he's not even the 2nd or 3rd best player of the year and Lewandowski is pretty much far ahead of anyone.
If The Balón D'or were awarded based on G+A, Messi would have had 9 to Ronaldo's 2.

Since 2009, if the Balón D'or were based on G+A:

2009: Messi (56)
2010: Messi (58)
2011: Messi (77)
2012: Messi (104)
2013: Messi (76)
2014: Ronaldo (68)
2015: Messi (88)
2016: Suarez (81)
2017: Messi (72)
2018: Messi (63)
2019: Messi (71)
2020: Lewandowski (65)
 

Anderson-son-son's Son

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I see many United fans in this forum as well as football pundits thinking that United regressed with him just like when he was at Juve, I guess they are all butthurt as well. See where United finished last season and where they are now with him. United lost 6 games in the entire season last year and they already have 5 losses in 12 games this season with him with Bruno, Greenwood etc. all underperforming not to mention the concerning fact that even the lowest ranked teams in PL are able to dominate United this year unlike last year..

Him scoring against inferior La Liga 13th Villareal, Swiss giants Young Boys, and Atalanta with 5 main players missing seems to have clouded your judgment. It was the same story at Juve..Not a single coach lasted more than a year with him in the team, not even Allegri or Sarri..

A loss to Chelsea this weekend as expected, there will be many questioning his contribution in this forum as usual.. A win against Young Boys with him scoring, then people will start calling him the GOAT, that's been the norm so far..
Surely you're not attributing that to Ronaldo. Do you even watch our games? See the goals we concede and the manner we concede them in?
 

Lord SInister

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If The Balón D'or were awarded based on G+A, Messi would have had 9 to Ronaldo's 2.

Since 2009, if the Balón D'or were based on G+A:

2009: Messi (56)
2010: Messi (58)
2011: Messi (77)
2012: Messi (104)
2013: Messi (76)
2014: Ronaldo (68)
2015: Messi (88)
2016: Suarez (81)
2017: Messi (72)
2018: Messi (63)
2019: Messi (71)
2020: Lewandowski (65)
2012 it is 113 i think(or we are excluding NT stats)
 

Ladron de redcafe

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2012 it is 113 i think(or we are excluding NT stats)
I'm not actually sure. It's from a graphic that is making its way around the internet. Might also be stats for the season rather than for the calender year because - like you - I can't imagine that Messi's numbers aren't higher than 110 for that season. He had 91 goals alone and seemed to be creating a goal every week.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

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2021 Messi has less G+A than all of Benzema,Mbappe and Kane

And he's been worse than the first two in big games. They've got goals vs Spain,Belgium,Portugal,Barca,Atletico,Chelsea and Spain Belgium,Barca,Bayern,City respectively

Lewandowski sits alone at the very top as far as numbers goes. Should a Copa America that's been held for the 4th time in 6 years have such an impact on the votes? When Messi was terrible in the final against Brazil?
 
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I see many United fans in this forum as well as football pundits thinking that United regressed with him just like when he was at Juve, I guess they are all butthurt as well. See where United finished last season and where they are now with him. United lost 6 games in the entire season last year and they already have 5 losses in 12 games this season with him with Bruno, Greenwood etc. all underperforming not to mention the concerning fact that even the lowest ranked teams in PL are able to dominate United this year unlike last year..

Him scoring against inferior La Liga 13th Villareal, Swiss giants Young Boys, and Atalanta with 5 main players missing seems to have clouded your judgment. It was the same story at Juve..Not a single coach lasted more than a year with him in the team, not even Allegri or Sarri..

A loss to Chelsea this weekend as expected, there will be many questioning his contribution in this forum as usual.. A win against Young Boys with him scoring, then people will start calling him the GOAT, that's been the norm so far..
It's the Messi thread you twerp.
 

Zehner

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2021 Messi has less G+A than all of Benzema,Mbappe and Kane

And he's been worse than the first two in big games. They've got goals vs Spain,Belgium,Portugal,Barca,Atletico,Chelsea and Spain Belgium,Barca,Bayern,City respectively

Lewandowski sits alone at the very top as far as numbers goes. Should a Copa America that's been held for the 4th time in 6 years have such an impact on the votes? When Messi was terrible in the final against Brazil?
You know there's more to football than just the last two contacts before the ball passes the line? And you know even those last two contacts can vary in importance greatly?
 

Iker Quesadillas

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If The Balón D'or were awarded based on G+A, Messi would have had 9 to Ronaldo's 2.

Since 2009, if the Balón D'or were based on G+A:

2009: Messi (56)
2010: Messi (58)
2011: Messi (77)
2012: Messi (104)
2013: Messi (76)
2014: Ronaldo (68)
2015: Messi (88)
2016: Suarez (81)
2017: Messi (72)
2018: Messi (63)
2019: Messi (71)
2020: Lewandowski (65)
Yeah we know. Nobody actually wants to automatically give it to the person with most Goals and Assists.
 

Lord SInister

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If The Balón D'or were awarded based on G+A, Messi would have had 9 to Ronaldo's 2.

Since 2009, if the Balón D'or were based on G+A:

2009: Messi (56)
2010: Messi (58)
2011: Messi (77)
2012: Messi (104)
2013: Messi (76)
2014: Ronaldo (68)
2015: Messi (88)
2016: Suarez (81)
2017: Messi (72)
2018: Messi (63)
2019: Messi (71)
2020: Lewandowski (65)
Damn Suarez in 2016. Messi reaching 70+ stats in 6 years. Madness.
 

Pocho

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He is recovering. He'll be Fine. Three assists and sparks of his magic.
 

Oly Francis

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To be fair he had a pretty terrible game tonight for at least 50mn, one of the worst i've seen from him, but he showed he still had some tricks left.
 

Morty_

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3 assists though, his pass to Di Maria was great.

If he continues like this, he will prove a valuable player for them.
 

padr81

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If The Balón D'or were awarded based on G+A, Messi would have had 9 to Ronaldo's 2.

Since 2009, if the Balón D'or were based on G+A:

2009: Messi (56)
2010: Messi (58)
2011: Messi (77)
2012: Messi (104)
2013: Messi (76)
2014: Ronaldo (68)
2015: Messi (88)
2016: Suarez (81)
2017: Messi (72)
2018: Messi (63)
2019: Messi (71)
2020: Lewandowski (65)
I still laugh when I see this. 104, insanity.
 

Hoof The Ball

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So the lion is waking up from his rather lengthy sleep.
Inevitable, really. A couple of injuries in 3 months hampering match fitness and sharpness. But man, that period between December last year until the end of the Copa America. We've already forgotten that 7 of the last 11 months he was picking up MOTM performances left, right and centre. I mean, he even scored four, assisted five in five games in the Copa America to win the thing.

It's just what he does. His body changes with age and he becomes technically better at some other facet of the game to maintain his standards.
 

Oly Francis

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Inevitable, really. A couple of injuries in 3 months hampering match fitness and sharpness. But man, that period between December last year until the end of the Copa America. We've already forgotten that 7 of the last 11 months he was picking up MOTM performances left, right and centre. I mean, he even scored four, assisted five in five games in the Copa America to win the thing.

It's just what he does. His body changes with age and he becomes technically better at some other facet of the game to maintain his standards.
While I agree Messi could be back to his normal (but aging self) in the next couple of weeks, he was, even tonight, terrible technically. He ends up with 3 assists and it's great but god was his game terrible apart from that. His first half was one of the worst 45mn of football i've seen from him.
 

Pocho

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While I agree Messi could be back to his normal (but aging self) in the next couple of weeks, he was, even tonight, terrible technically. He ends up with 3 assists and it's great but god was his game terrible apart from that. His first half was one of the worst 45mn of football i've seen from him.
The three upfront were horrid in different ways, Mbappe missed like 4 goals, Neymar turned over the ball too many times and Messi wasn't accurate at all with his passes, very strange, but I liked the team as a whole and Ramos is a major improvement, they will be fine.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

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He was poor yesterday despite the assists. PSG was lucky for that red card. They were looking lethargic before it against the worst team in the league.
 

TheLiverBird

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While I agree Messi could be back to his normal (but aging self) in the next couple of weeks, he was, even tonight, terrible technically. He ends up with 3 assists and it's great but god was his game terrible apart from that. His first half was one of the worst 45mn of football i've seen from him.
He was terrible…yet he provided the assists for all the goals

That’s a pretty decent way to be terrible don’t you think?
 

Zehner

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He was terrible…yet he provided the assists for all the goals

That’s a pretty decent way to be terrible don’t you think?

I think that is nonsense to be honest. If he's playing shit, he's playing shit, regardless if he gets on the score sheet in one way or another. I always preferred Messi over Ronaldo because of the things he provided outside of his scorers. Would be pretty hypocritical to "criticize" that in case of Ronaldo and ignore it in case of Messi.

I've also seen pretty bad displays by Messi in 2021/22 so far. But it's not too long ago that he had a fantastic Copa and he was injured in the meantime. So I'm optimistic we see that version of him again. But if he has a shit game scorers aside, he has a shit game scorers aside.
 

tomaldinho1

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He was terrible…yet he provided the assists for all the goals

That’s a pretty decent way to be terrible don’t you think?
It’s kind of the same argument everyone discounts Ronaldo for. He ‘just’ scores goals. Truth is Messi/Ronaldo haven’t been anywhere near where they used to be (understandably given their ages) but some fans have a hard time accepting that. They are both still top players (Ronaldo almost singlehandedly saved us from the EL this season for example) but I find it hard to imagine if we're being unbiased either would get into anyone’s best world XI anymore.
 

TheLiverBird

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I think that is nonsense to be honest. If he's playing shit, he's playing shit, regardless if he gets on the score sheet in one way or another. I always preferred Messi over Ronaldo because of the things he provided outside of his scorers. Would be pretty hypocritical to "criticize" that in case of Ronaldo and ignore it in case of Messi.

I've also seen pretty bad displays by Messi in 2021/22 so far. But it's not too long ago that he had a fantastic Copa and he was injured in the meantime. So I'm optimistic we see that version of him again. But if he has a shit game scorers aside, he has a shit game scorers aside.
I don’t think it’s nonsense

The best players, the greatest players, will often be able to provide something to the game nonetheless. Not always but certainly more often than the “good” players.

Same for Ronaldo, he’s hardly lit the premier league up performance wise….but he’s still piping up with the goals that make the difference.

They aren’t the same players the once we’re of course, they are both 34 and 37 respectively, but they still provide numbers most players want to achieve in a season.
 

Zehner

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I don’t think it’s nonsense

The best players, the greatest players, will often be able to provide something to the game nonetheless. Not always but certainly more often than the “good” players.

Same for Ronaldo, he’s hardly lit the premier league up performance wise….but he’s still piping up with the goals that make the difference.

They aren’t the same players the once we’re of course, they are both 34 and 37 respectively, but they still provide numbers most players want to achieve in a season.
See, I think @tomaldinho1 summarized it quite correctly with this sentence:

It’s kind of the same argument everyone discounts Ronaldo for. He ‘just’ scores goals.
"assisting three goals is a pretty decent way to be terrible" is pretty much the same thing many people brought up in the Messi vs. Ronaldo discussion. I hated this argument because football is more than what happens in the last two contacts before the ball passes the line. Players shouldn't maximize these statistics, they should try to perform as well as they can and not tamper over a bad performance with goals and assists.

Thing is, if Messi for instance had three good plays over the whole game, it's not enough "density" of good actions over 90 minutes, even if they led to goals. At least not by his standards that is :)
 

TheLiverBird

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See, I think @tomaldinho1 summarized it quite correctly with this sentence:



"assisting three goals is a pretty decent way to be terrible" is pretty much the same thing many people brought up in the Messi vs. Ronaldo discussion. I hated this argument because football is more than what happens in the last two contacts before the ball passes the line. Players shouldn't maximize these statistics, they should try to perform as well as they can and not tamper over a bad performance with goals and assists.

Thing is, if Messi for instance had three good plays over the whole game, it's not enough "density" of good actions over 90 minutes, even if they led to goals. At least not by his standards that is :)
Just so that you know

I’m not in either Messi or Ronaldo camp

I’m just in the jaw on the floor camp with both of them. They were obviously not born on Earth, but Both have declined over the years performance wise, but they were so far up in the stratosphere at their peak, their decline still leaves them both in the “top footballers on the planet right now” category alongside your Lewandowski’s and Salah’s.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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On a serious note, I think it gives him a better claim in the all time argument against Maradona. But I'm not entirely convinced he's necessarily better than Diego was.

It's still 1a: Maradona and 1b: Messi, for me as of now. Then the Pele's and Cryuffs rounding up the mount Rushmore.

However, it has been spectacular.

7 balón d'ors (Next most: 5)
6 Golden Boots (Next most: 4)
8 domestic league top scorer awards
Highest scoring peak ever with 91 goals (next most: 85)
Most assists in recorded football history
 

Bebestation

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On a serious note, I think it gives him a better claim in the all time argument against Maradona. But I'm not entirely convinced he's necessarily better than Diego was.

It's still 1a: Maradona and 1b: Messi, for me as of now. Then the Pele's and Cryuffs rounding up the mount Rushmore.

However, it has been spectacular.

7 balón d'ors (Next most: 5)
6 Golden Boots (Next most: 4)
8 domestic league top scorer awards
Highest scoring peak ever with 91 goals (next most: 85)
Most assists in recorded football history
I don't follow Argentina or know anyone - don't they value Maradona more than Messi too? Maybe I'm wrong but I remember that somewhere.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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I don't follow Argentina or know anyone - don't they value Maradona more than Messi too? Maybe I'm wrong but I remember that somewhere.
They do. Maradona is an icon. Messi is popular but most of my Argentinian friends easily pick Diego. He's irreplaceable. Whether that makes him better is another matter. I think he might still be.