Lived Experience in Casting Decisions. (Maureen Lipman attacks casting of Helen Mirren as former Israeli PM Golda Meir)

[moses]

This could probably fit in a few threads or forums (so if anyone knows a better home I'll move it) but what's our take on this in particular and casting in general. Is this not what acting is about, getting into a character as opposed to being the character? Or is Lipman right, when Jewishness is integral, can that be created by the actor?

Maureen Lipman attacks casting of Helen Mirren as former Israeli PM Golda Meir


https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...yKn57LyzylRR6rY1OzKWrrV3Yc#Echobox=1641421330

 

[calodo2003]

A lot to unpack here.

 

[do.ob]

Ok, I'll be the one to say it: There's a reason we call these people actors/actresses and not historical witnesses?!

 

[Adisa]

The Ben Kingsley/Mandela analogy is beyond stupid.

 

[Superden]

Maureen Lipman. All in favour of social justice, but also has no problem with people not like her being brutalised, and being thatchers stooge.

 

[Vidyoyo]

In contrast, the playwright and director Patrick Marber was quoted in the Jewish Chronicle article as objecting to the primacy of “lived experienced” in casting decisions, saying: “I fecking hate that expression. Because ‘lived experience’ is sort of a denial of what creativity is and denies the actor the fundamental challenge and right to become someone else to impersonate another human being from another time, from another culture from another religion and another sexuality and other gender.”

Anyway, I think this is a good point.

 

[crappycraperson]

This is natural progression of the trend. Eddie Redmayne came out and said that acting in Danish girl was a mistake since he would now want a trans person to have done it. No Hollywood actor can take on a trans role without it killing their career now. Sia's movie got backlash for not having an autistic person play the role of a character with ASD.

In some cases it obviously matters a lot. You don't want white actors playing the role of people of color in any way or form. But expanding restrictions for actors to take on any role hat may not conform to their characteristics and background to a tee is going to result in a loss of creativity.

 

[horsechoker]

This is natural progression of the trend. Eddie Redmayne came out and said that acting in Danish girl was a mistake since he would now want a trans person to have done it. No Hollywood actor can take on a trans role without it killing their career now. Sia's movie got backlash for not having an autistic person play the role of a character with ASD.

In some cases it obviously matters a lot. You don't want white actors playing the role of people of color in any way or form. But expanding restrictions for actors to take on any role hat may not conform to their characteristics and background to a tee is going to result in a loss of creativity.

To be fair it was in poor taste the way they did the character.

 

[2 man midfield]

It’s called acting. Who gives a shit?

 

[Eboue]

"jewface"

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I can get behind the idea that neurotypical actors playing disabled characters makes it harder for actors with those conditions to get roles when they couldn’t get away with playing someone who is not disabled. The idea that only trans actors can play trans characters or gay actors can’t play straight roles (and vice versa) seems ridiculous. If gender and sexuality is fluid then obviously these are traits that an actor should be able to emulate for a role.

Also, goes without saying that what Maureen Lipman is arguing is fecking ridiculous.

 

[Jippy]

You had the issue with deaf actors objecting to non-disabled actors playing hearing impaired characters last year too.

Jewface does have an unhelpfully comedic ring to it if people want a serious debate on the topic.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/can-someone-tell-me-exactly-why-this-is-wrong.459671/

 

[Withnail]

The Ben Kingsley/Mandela analogy is beyond stupid.

It's probably the stupidest thing I've read today.

 

[Beachryan]

Vaguely reminds of the tale of Dustin Hoffman and Laurence Olivier in marathon man. I'll prolly butcher it, but Hoffman was all method acting, so had like starved himself and stayed awake for days to recreate the characters experience, whereas Olivier just showed up on set for the scene. When Hoffman asked why he hadn't gotten into role, Olivier said: 'it's called acting'.

There are two sides to this as ever. There is a community of, say, disabled actors who deserve a chance in roles - perhaps ahead of their 'normal' counterparts. Similarly, we rightly don't do like Othello with the aforementioned Olivier anymore.

But requiring a historical figure to be played by an actor of the same religion? I'm not sure I agree with that. If the reason was that a Jewish actor deserved the shot you might have some support from me, but that's not what they're saying - they're saying it's impossible to act it well enough.

As other posters have said, that's kind of what acting is.

 

[Withnail]

You had the issue with deaf actors objecting to non-disabled actors playing hearing impaired characters last year too.

Jewface does have an unhelpfully comedic ring to it if people want a serious debate on the topic.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/can-someone-tell-me-exactly-why-this-is-wrong.459671/

As per the previous incident like this I've seen if they're not excluding group or groups of people from auditions and picking the best person for the role then there shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Desert Eagle]

You can see both sides of the debate. On one hand actors are just that and should be allowed to portray different people from different cultures. How convincing they are is kind of the mark of a good actor.

Now the other side is at what point does it cross the line into something inappropriate, when the line is a tricky thing that is constantly shifting with the values and norms of society.

Most people would agree a white actor playing a black person is unacceptable but lets dig deeper into why that is. Is it the history of oppression between the races, the availability of black actors, the difficulty in getting a white person to look convincingly black or a combination of those and other factors .

Personally I tend to side on the artistic freedom side of things which allows most art to be created as long as its not hurting anybody. So if someone from x race wants to play someone from y race then I'm supportive of the ability to create the art but the artist has to deal with society and its reactions

 

[Tarrou]

Ben Kingsley was pretty much the worst example to chose considering he played Ghandi

Couldn't be bothered reading after that

 

[Penna]

This is natural progression of the trend. Eddie Redmayne came out and said that acting in Danish girl was a mistake since he would now want a trans person to have done it. No Hollywood actor can take on a trans role without it killing their career now. Sia's movie got backlash for not having an autistic person play the role of a character with ASD.

In some cases it obviously matters a lot. You don't want white actors playing the role of people of color in any way or form. But expanding restrictions for actors to take on any role hat may not conform to their characteristics and background to a tee is going to result in a loss of creativity.

I agree with you, and immediately thought of "My Left Foot", where method actor Daniel Day Lewis prepared by experiencing life as a person in a wheelchair who couldn't feed himself. There's loads of examples of actors putting on or losing weight to play a part. Years ago Dustin Hoffman played the role of an autistic man in "Rain Man" and won an Oscar for it.

I suppose you could say "yes, but at the end of the filming Day Lewis wasn't actually a man with cerebral palsy", but that's not the point to me - he's a great actor. As you say, having a white actor wear black make-up to play a black character is completely inappropriate and unnecessary, but that's different as far as I'm concerned. There are lots of great black actors. Whereas I doubt there are many actors with cerebral palsy who would have had the skill to play the role Day Lewis played.

I can see what Lipman's saying to an extent, but then, she was very successful being Joyce Grenfell on stage. Grenfell was a Christian Scientist and consequently refused medical treatment for the cancer that killed her, so that was a central part of who she was. Should Lipman have not played that role, as a Jewish woman?

If you go down this path, it's never-ending.

 

[crappycraperson]

I agree with you, and immediately thought of "My Left Foot", where method actor Daniel Day Lewis prepared by experiencing life as a person in a wheelchair who couldn't feed himself. There's loads of examples of actors putting on or losing weight to play a part. Years ago Dustin Hoffman played the role of an autistic man in "Rain Man" and won an Oscar for it.

I suppose you could say "yes, but at the end of the filming Day Lewis wasn't actually a man with cerebral palsy", but that's not the point to me - he's a great actor. As you say, having a white actor wear black make-up to play a black character is completely inappropriate and unnecessary, but that's different as far as I'm concerned. There are lots of great black actors. Whereas I doubt there are many actors with cerebral palsy who would have had the skill to play the role Day Lewis played.

I can see what Lipman's saying to an extent, but then, she was very successful being Joyce Grenfell on stage. Grenfell was a Christian Scientist and consequently refused medical treatment for the cancer that killed her, so that was a central part of who she was. Should Lipman have not played that role, as a Jewish woman?

If you go down this path, it's never-ending.

You explained it better than I did!

 

[Garethw]

Isn’t she a massive hypocrite for taking on non Jewish roles throughout her entire acting career?

 

[Penna]

Isn’t she a massive hypocrite for taking on non Jewish roles throughout her entire acting career?

Well, there you go, it can easily become ridiculous.

 

[sullydnl]

I can generally agree with the idea that as actors with certain disabilities or from certain backgrounds are typically underrepresented relative to their talents, it's a positive if there's pressure on film-makers to actually direct the roles that do represent people from those backgrounds in their direction.

That's more about correcting an industry dynamic though, as opposed to the idea that there's something so inherently unknowable about a given group of people that an outsider can't possibly perform the role convincingly. Also not all backgrounds lend themselves towards exclusion as much as others. There's obviously a big difference between actor with no disabilities playing a character with a disability versus, say, an English actor playing an Irish character.

Strictly from a selfish viewer POV, seeing someone like Redmayne in that Danish Girl role does now come with an instinctive cringe factor for me even if only because it's such a cliché at this point. And conversely if a mainstream flick like A Quiet Place actually bothers to have a deaf actor playing a deaf character then it does carry a more promising vibe in advance. Also, that accursed Sia film alone was enough to predispose me positively towards lived-experience casting choices. Anything that stops people from making films like that is a plus.

What irks me slightly more if you're trying to be more representative in terms of casting choices though is the preponderance of roles that could be played by literally anyone that go to straight white actors by default.

 

[MoskvaRed]

There’s an obvious difference between Alec Guinness blacking up to play an Arab and Helen Mirren playing a white woman of a different religion. Particularly as Jewish people, unlike other minorities, have traditionally played a huge role in the movie industry. If you apply Lipman’s principle, then you arrive at stupid conclusions like Rachel Weisz should not play Sarah Churchill as she cannot understand the protestant/ catholic dynamics of post- Glorious Revolution England.

 

[moses]

Baddiel agrees with Maureen.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...lipman-david-baddiel-row-jews-bojack-horseman

"Despite the use in this argument of the term Jewface, when I watch non-Jews play Jews, it isn’t just about the face. The phrase I use, to cover the whole range of tics and shrugs and stooping and whining and kvetching like I saw in a recent production of Little Shop of Horrors for the playing of the character of Mr Mushnik by a non-Jewish actor – is Nebbish Being. Having a non-Jew do Nebbish Being – if you follow the same logic that would apply if this was a black, gay, trans, disabled or any other minority character, playing-up stereotypical aspects of that minority – is disrespectful, or at least not true, to Jews."

Isn't that the essence of acting? Some degree of mimicking and with method you submerge so much the mimicry becomes almost involuntary?

 

[0le]

When I see characters with ASD on TV shows and films, I often cringe. It is often either an individual that is ridiculously clever or "needing a lot of care" and their "quirks" (for want of a better word) are always seen as "interesting" by many of the other characters.

The reality is that the majority lie somewhere in between those extremes and will likely have genuine issues which lead to a wide range of struggles in life. No one for example wants to see me stim as a fecking grown man in public. People have found my bluntness and honesty hurtful (so I have had to learn the hard way in that respect) and I am absolutely shit at maths, chess, medicine or whatever other shit that normally gets assigned to people on the spectrum in this form of media.

So my issue is not the actors who play people on the spectrum but rather the useless writers that often just get it so wrong on so many levels.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Baddiel agrees with Maureen.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...lipman-david-baddiel-row-jews-bojack-horseman

"Despite the use in this argument of the term Jewface, when I watch non-Jews play Jews, it isn’t just about the face. The phrase I use, to cover the whole range of tics and shrugs and stooping and whining and kvetching like I saw in a recent production of Little Shop of Horrors for the playing of the character of Mr Mushnik by a non-Jewish actor – is Nebbish Being. Having a non-Jew do Nebbish Being – if you follow the same logic that would apply if this was a black, gay, trans, disabled or any other minority character, playing-up stereotypical aspects of that minority – is disrespectful, or at least not true, to Jews."

Isn't that the essence of acting? Some degree of mimicking and with method you submerge so much the mimicry becomes almost involuntary?

He might have a point but it's hard with Baddiel given how insufferable he generally is. I don't think there's a topic he's opined on in the past few years that isn't a problem in some shape or form.

What gets me most is his lack of self-awareness given his career as a comedian - largely acting for laughs and sometimes profiting from going to much worse lengths than this (even assuming he apologised for it which I'm sure he has).

Edit - Bit of a personal point against him rather than the topic.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Baddiel agrees with Maureen.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...lipman-david-baddiel-row-jews-bojack-horseman

"Despite the use in this argument of the term Jewface, when I watch non-Jews play Jews, it isn’t just about the face. The phrase I use, to cover the whole range of tics and shrugs and stooping and whining and kvetching like I saw in a recent production of Little Shop of Horrors for the playing of the character of Mr Mushnik by a non-Jewish actor – is Nebbish Being. Having a non-Jew do Nebbish Being – if you follow the same logic that would apply if this was a black, gay, trans, disabled or any other minority character, playing-up stereotypical aspects of that minority – is disrespectful, or at least not true, to Jews."

Isn't that the essence of acting? Some degree of mimicking and with method you submerge so much the mimicry becomes almost involuntary?

It’s a strange path to go down alright. What about actors playing up “stereotypical aspects” of a particular nationality? There would be a hell of a lot of British/Irish actors out of work if they weren’t allowed to mimic Yanks.

He would probably argue that they’re not a minority and his issue is only with mimicking minorities. Still though…

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Cancel him!

 

[moses]

He might have a point but it's hard with Baddiel given how insufferable he generally is. I don't think there's a topic he's opined on in the past few years that isn't a problem in some shape or form.

What gets me most is his lack of self-awareness given his career as a comedian - largely acting for laughs and sometimes profiting from going to much worse lengths than this (even assuming he apologised for it which I'm sure he has).

Edit - Bit of a personal point against him rather than the topic.

Yeah, he's an odd one on this topic but ironically, having no real experience, all I can do is shrug and kvetch inwardly.

 

[moses]

It’s a strange path to go down alright. What about actors playing up “stereotypical aspects” of a particular nationality? There would be a hell of a lot of British/Irish actors out of work if they weren’t allowed to mimic Yanks.

He would probably argue that they’re not a minority and his issue is only with mimicking minorities. Still though…

It's odd., all of those mannerisms he listed although associated with are not unique to Jewish people. Me stooping and whining as per a script is not comparable to blacking up.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Hasn't he refused to apologise for that?

David Baddiel is fecking shite, an absolute chancer.

 

[Sweet Square]

Hasn't he refused to apologise for that?

David Baddiel is fecking shite, an absolute chancer.

Tbf I think he has apologised for it

But overall Baddeil is just another case of a boring middle aged bloke who has too much time on his hands and can't seem to use the internet. So he spends all day complaining about cancel culture.

 

[2cents]

Hasn't he refused to apologise for that?

David Baddiel is fecking shite, an absolute chancer.

Claims here that he has, repeatedly:

Baddiel has also been called out online repeatedly for doing blackface in TV sketches in the 1990s, and impersonating the black footballer Jason Lee for Fantasy Football. Baddiel has apologised and said it was wrong, and racist. “I’m happy to keep on apologising because I do know that not everyone’s seen the latest apology. You make statements, and not everyone sees them, they often just fizzle in the air.”​

 

[Sweet Square]

Most people only see the pic of Baddiel in blackface but the Jason Lee segment is genuinely just racist bullying on national television.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tbf I think he has apologised for it

But overall Baddeil is just another case of a boring middle aged bloke who has too much time on his hands and can't seem to use the internet. So he spends all day complaining about cancel culture.

He does? Based on the article in this thread he’s very much aligned with it.

 

[2cents]

Most people only see the pic of Baddiel in blackface but the Jason Lee segment is genuinely just racist bullying on national television.

12 year-old me thought it was gas

 

[Pogue Mahone]

12 year-old me thought it was gas

There’s loads of stuff that seemed funny at the time which is absolutely brutal now. Combination of humour changing over time and you growing up. Especially anything aimed at a really mainstream audience. Have you watched any clips of Little Britain recently? My God…

Thankfully the more esoteric stuff passes the test of time. Everything by Reeves and Mortimer is still very funny (mostly).

 

[Withnail]

Touché

 

[Sweet Square]

He does? Based on the article in this thread he’s very much aligned with it.

Both overlap. Baddiel is completely in the bizarre culture war goo. Even in that article Baddiel is at one time trying to scold a theatre play and then also upset that people are still annoyed at him for bullying a black footballer on national tv.

Baddiel also has an MRI scan where he was shown the startling effects on his brain of being bombarded with positive and negative tweets.

Sound like something from a David Cronenberg nightmare.


We would all be better off if these people just log off.

12 year-old me thought it was gas