LV Monopoly draft - SF1: Tuppet vs Skizzanah Nomustard

[antohan]

vs.

-----------------------------------Team Tuppet--------------------------------------------------------------------------Team Skizzanah-------------------------------

TEAM TUPPET

Formation: 4-3-3 with false 9
Defensive line: Deep
Philosophy: Counterattacking.

With the Injury to Cruyff, Hamrin would take right side, while Messi moves to center in his favored false 9 role. In Cruyff's absence Pirlo takes the center stage as primary playmaker and with support from Messi would dictate the game for my team. We would line up in 4-3-3 with Crisitano Ronaldo as Left inside forward and Hamrin as right forward. We would be staying disciplined and compact in defense and try to catch the opposition in a counter attack. The defensive strategy (not formation) is based on all conquering France 98 & 2000 sides, where 7 players would stay solid in defense, while most of the attacking and the onus to score goal falls on the front 3. This does not mean that one of Tardelli, Vieira, Krol or Blanc can not come with a winning goal, it just mean that they are more disciplined in defensive phase. Following attributes of my team would help in executing this plan -

1. Great back line backed by best goalkeeper of all time. Shesternyov and Blanc is great partnership at the center. Shesternyov brings searing pace as one of the fastest defender in history, while Blanc was imperious in air and a had fantastic passing. Both were very good at reading game. Both of my fullbacks are very balanced and were defense first, attack second players. Krol and Bossis were fast and had good ball playing skills, especially Krol who was a playmaker from left.

2. Two physical box to box midfielder in Tardelli & Vieira, who can cover every blade of grass on pitch and provide defensive solidity in midfield. Both would play defensively.

3. A brilliant deep lying playmaker in Pirlo, who can quickly kick start a counter with his brilliant passing. Blanc is also fantastic in that aspect and Krol & Bossis more than competent in passing. This would help my team to launch counter attacks from deep.

4. A lightning fast attack, full of pace, dribbling, creativity and finishing. All 3 of Messi, Cristiano and Hamrin have fantastic goal scoring numbers. All of them are great dribblers and complement each others perfectly.

Thoughts on opposition:
1. Courtouis at this stage is a weakness, he is the weakest player on pitch and playing against a ruthless attack.
2. Pele - Maradona, compatibility issues? - probably not. They do like to operate in similar areas though.




TEAM SKIZZANNAH SANS MUSTARD

Defense
-

The defense and spine of the team is inspired by Beckenbaurs and Schwarzenbecks iconic West Germany side The steel of Schwarzenbeck and Vogts provided the defensive cover which let Breitner operate as a free roaming playmaking left back which suits the way Lahm would play the position as well. Alternating between making overlapping runs and drifting inside to provide a passing option while causing confusion for the defending team.

Spoiler

-------------------Lahm-------------------------------------------Breitner

In Vogts role we have Bergomi who also thrived in a defensive right back role and there aren't many like-for-like replacements for Vogts in terms of style and genuine star quality but Bergomi is one of them. After watching Vogts and comparing him against Bergomi for this particular role I think Bergomi is an upgrade while Vogts had to give away some of his greatness in comparison to his club form to free up Beckenbauer and Breitner for their offensive raids.

Beckenbauer and Schwarzenbeck won everything together and they formed one of the best centre back partnerships in history. It is difficult to find the right defensive setup and player to partner Beckenbauer but Schwarzenbeck did so perfectly. One of the players who impressed me the most from that vintage German side was Schwarzenbeck who was an all time great in his own rights and managed to sweep up after both Beckenbauer and Breitner thanks to his geniune defensive greatness. He was more composed than Vogts(who isn't at his best there) in the role and he provided everything your typical stopper would. Great aerial ability, strength and a no nonsense mentality to complement the artists around him.

Midfield
Diego Maradona will spearhead this central midfield as a number 10. Neeskens and Netto are an incredible pairing - both comfortable in whatever position Beckenbauer decides to take whether it is to form a flat 4-3-3 where Neeskens and Netto are at home with their experience or if one or both have to play conservative as Beckenbauer is making a marauding run to the box.

There will always be one of the three making a direct explosive run towards the box when opportunity arises.

I feel Netto and Neeskens have shown their worth already against the monstrous midfield of Matthaus and Falcao in the previous round, and here it's unlikely they'd face as much of a challenge against a possible Vieira/Tardelli pairing.
Not taking into account the movement of Beckenbauer and Maradona around the same areas...which is safe to say should swing the midfield battle our way on a consistent basis.

Offense
With Maradona in the team we're guaranteed creativity, playmaking and goals as long as we can stretch the pitch and provide the runs he needs. While our Welsh Wizard picked up his annual hamstring injury, we have Alexis Sanchez on the left side to keep the full back honest. While Sanchez obviously doesn't quite hold the same weight as his attacking counterparts in this game (on both teams, not just ours), he's a player accustomed to letting his teammates shine, having played second fiddle to Messi at Barca. Here, he'll be tasked with spreading the play, linking up with our other attacking players, and taking advantage of the space afforded to him when other players get the attention and marking.

With Lahm working together in tandem, cutting in when Sanchez needs him there, overlapping when Sanchez wants to cut in himself.

On the other wing we have Julinho, the third best Brazilian right winger of all time and one of the best right wingers overall. The man made it a job to dominate a flank on his own and provide width and even created a lot of goals from that side with 101 goals in 191 games for Palmeiras and 13 in 31 for Brazil.

Spoiler

After playing fine in English best of all time and become a holy being wearing the shirt of Fiorentina-ITA, that impish, technical and sublime tip-right was back to Brazil missed its land and its people. But in 1959, that same people decided booing him before a game against the Brazilian National Team England squad at the Maracana, months after the canary team have won their first World Cup title. The more than 130,000 people wanted to see Garrincha, the tip-right champion Sweden and absolute owner. No one wanted to see that citizen thin mustache, fine features and slender. But on the way up to the lawn, Mané substitute decided to end that audacity against his football in a few minutes.

More precisely three, until the moment when José Ribamar de Oliveira dominated on the left, he played for Henry and this left the man jeered dominate and send the ball into the goal. Minutes later, he built the play of the second goal. Following, dribbled English with the ease that only he had and turned the faces of anger and envy in smiles. At the end of the match two minutes of applause to bury the two hoots. The Maracana was apologizing for the crime. And the man who made the day May 13, 1959 the foundation stone of his legend, thanked him and smiled. Júlio Botelho, known as Julinho Botelho wrote this and many other fantastic stories with an absolute beauty football and had always been the purest essence of the victorious Brazilian football once: fed up dribbling, speed, insinuating plays, devastating kicks and passes tasteful

He'll stretch the pitch perfectly for us while he is more than dangerous enough in his free defensive role to punish offensive plays from the opponents full backs.

Oh, and Pele.

Why we'll win:

Pele. Maradona. Beckenbauer. Not shoe-horned into a team to try and make it work, but all playing in positions where they would thrive. Beckenbauer marshaling a defensive unit that is based on the one he led to glory, and with the very same defensive partner who was there alongside him. Maradona covered by two all round, top tier midfielders who can link up with him, and put in the hard work to free him up. Pele leading the line at his goal scoring best, supplied by the only other player who has been compared to him as the best ever (until Messi came along ) All of them would need the attention of the opposition to try and stop them from wreaking havoc. In this case, there's just not enough to stop them. Stopping one would be hard enough. Stopping two would be damn near impossible.

In terms of opposition, the front 3 of Tuppet is quite a collection. Although its a shame that Cruyff is missing out, Messi steps into that role perfectly, and I assume Hamrin will come in on the right. Messi in his False 9 role with two scoring wing forwards cutting in is very well set up. That being said, it does play into our defensive set up rather well for us. Lahm would be moving onto his stronger right foot when Hamrin moves in. Bergomi the tucked in defensive wall when Ronaldo moves towards goal. Beckenbauer stepping out of the defense to pick up the runs of Messi. It would need more support from elsewhere, and I don't see where it would come from if those three become somewhat stifled. Not to say they aren't capable of a moment of magic, because with the two greatest players of our generation playing, it's certainly possible, but they would also need help from somewhere.

All that being said, I would also question whether the style of Messi/Barca with their possession, build up, pressing all over the field, may not mesh perfectly with Ronaldo's style of direct, attacking at pace, pure offense/no defense style. I know this has been discussed at length when they were in a draft team before, and I don't want to rehash old arguments, so i'll leave that to voters to decide through the upcoming discussions.

 

[antohan]

@Damien @Rado_N can you make it a poll please?

With players at peaks, who will win the match?
Team Tuppet
Team Skizzanah

Status can't be viewed unless you vote
Can see who voted who once you've voted
Can change vote

 

[antohan]

Good luck @Tuppet @Skizzo @Annahnomoss

 

[Damien]

@Damien @Rado_N can you make it a poll please?

With players at peaks, who will win the match?
Team Tuppet
Team Skizzanah

Status can't be viewed unless you vote
Can see who voted who once you've voted
Can change vote

I've given you Poll creating privileges. Just click on Thread tools top right, then Add Poll.

 

[harms]

Cruyff's injury is a blessing in disguise, Tuppet's front three looks much better. Shesternyov is a good choice to pair Blanc with, with his pace and physicality he'll help against Pele, although as a reinforcement for the semis he's a little underwhelming.

And the same concerns that I had in our game, Vieira and Tardelli have to play deeper than they like (otherwise Maradona is getting a free pass), when Netto, Neeskens and Beckenbauer will take control of the midfield. Messi and Ronaldo provide zero defensive work-rate, don't know about Hamrin in that aspect, but I'm not expecting much either way.

Sanchez isn't really accustomed to play as a second (or forth/fifth in this game at least) fiddle - his best spells were clearly for Chile, Arsenal and Udine, where he was the main star and he was pretty underwhelming (in all-time context) for Barca. But I guess his industry will help him to be useful.

In the end, of course there is a slight concern over Maradona/Pele axis, but the opponent doesn't really highlight its problems so the final decision is relatively easy.
The fact that I spent hours imagining the ways for Tuppet to concede in the last round didn't help the objectivity but I think that even without that I see the winner quite clear.

 

[antohan]

I've given you Poll creating privileges. Just click on Thread tools top right, then Add Poll.

Thanks!

 

[antohan]

Cristina Ronaldo? I thought he was just metro...

 

[antohan]

TBH, beyond the star quality I'm not anywhere near as impressed with Team Skizzanah as others seem to be.

Great spine, but nowt happening on the flanks.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Cruyff's injury is a blessing in disguise, Tuppet's front three looks much better. Shesternyov is a good choice to pair Blanc with, with his pace and physicality he'll help against Pele, although as a reinforcement for the semis he's a little underwhelming.

And the same concerns that I had in our game, Vieira and Tardelli have to play deeper than they like (otherwise Maradona is getting a free pass), when Netto, Neeskens and Beckenbauer will take control of the midfield. Messi and Ronaldo provide zero defensive work-rate, don't know about Hamrin in that aspect, but I'm not expecting much either way.

Sanchez isn't really accustomed to play as a second (or forth/fifth in this game at least) fiddle - his best spells were clearly for Chile, Arsenal and Udine, where he was the main star and he was pretty underwhelming (in all-time context) for Barca. But I guess his industry will help him to be useful.

In the end, of course there is a slight concern over Maradona/Pele axis, but the opponent doesn't really highlight its problems so the final decision is relatively easy.
The fact that I spent hours imagining the ways for Tuppet to concede in the last round didn't help the objectivity but I think that even without that I see the winner quite clear.

Definitely not the best Sanchez, I think that his star self was for Arsenal/Chile as well but his industry and off the ball runs, which he showed for Barcelona, have him in the team ahead of a lot of quality players. Hamrin is a classic type of winger like Julinho who played mostly with a dedicated defender on his side rather than an overlapping full back so you are right in that case.

 

[harms]

TBH, beyond the star quality I'm not anywhere near as impressed with Team Skizzanah as others seem to be.

Great spine, but nowt happening on the flanks.

The spine is pretty much perfect though, you'll struggle to name one midfielder who is a certain upgrade on Netto/Neeskens in this particular set-up, and Beckenbauer - Maradona link is incredible. Pele is going to be a little limited here, probably, but he's still a top pick for this role alongside Ronaldo.

With Julinho - Sanchez simply being on the wings and stretching the play by definition, it's impossible to handle this central threat with Tuppet's personnel

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

My first thought is Sanchez would go a bit rogue this game. Without an attacking full back to track, without a defined pressing system (like Chile or under Guardiola with specific triggers) and with most of the action going through a Beckenbauer, Maradona, Pele spine, I can see Alexis getting distracted and not provide the width required as he tries too hard to take part in the action. Sanchez can tend to go off task in a freer system like Wenger's or what is presented here. Wenger even alluded to this when he first spoke about moving Sanchez up to CF. Wenger said Sanchez sometimes too much energy too far down the pitch. Wenger would prefer he saved that for final third action. But Alexis' natural tendency is to chase the action if enough action is not naturally coming his way.

This is exactly the type of scenario where that quirk plays out. Especially with Lahm on the left who is much more likely to move into center midfield than charge down that flank. I think either Hamrin gets more joy than some would expect or Sanchez ends up marking Hamrin a lot with Lahm moving more central which blunts that attack a bit.

I'm not sure Tuppet can win but that combined with potential incompatibility of Pele-Maradona has me not just giving the game to the obvious. Pele took a lot of flack for leading the line with Gullit last match. While I didn't have as much a problem with that as some, I simply can't see Maradona being more compatible with Pele than Gullit. I am not sure that Skizzannah side is more than the sum of the parts even though admittedly more than the sum might not be required with so many greats.

 

[harms]

Pele took a lot of flack for leading the line with Gullit last match. While I didn't have as much a problem with that as some, I simply can't see Maradona being more compatible with Pele than Gullit.

It was more about him (or Gullit) being a number 9 in a team that heavily relied on crossing to create. Here he has a completely different role and he is well-suited to it

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It was more about him (or Gullit) being a number 9 in a team that heavily relied on crossing to create. Here he has a completely different role and he is well-suited to it

Maybe its just me but I try to account for personality and team chemistry as well, not just pure roles. Even at his most humble Maradona candidly admitted "We just never clicked, we always rubbed each other the wrong way; we would see each other and sparks would fly". I just can't see Pele and Maradona working as well together in an actual match as it would seem on paper.

Then again, based on both their comments this summer, maybe playing against Messi+CR would bring them together to fight the common enemy

 

[Skizzo]

Maybe its just me but I try to account for personality and team chemistry as well, not just pure roles. Even at his most humble Maradona candidly admitted "We just never clicked, we always rubbed each other the wrong way; we would see each other and sparks would fly". I just can't see Pele and Maradona working as well together in an actual match as it would seem on paper.

Then again, based on both their comments this summer, maybe playing against Messi+CR would bring them together to fight the common enemy

"No more fighting," Maradona said as the two greats embraced. "I want to thank Pele, we know who he is and who he will always be. We need icons like him."

Pele, a three-time world champion, also struck a conciliatory tone in response.

"The most important is the message of peace. Many thanks to my friend Maradona for this opportunity and a big round of applause to the players who have been here today," said Pele. "This is a moment of peace."

They love each other really

 

[harms]

I just can't see Pele and Maradona working as well together in an actual match as it would seem on paper.

Don't think that they are ideal on paper too though. It definitely limits Pele to an extent.
But if we talk about the personalities, I think Ronaldo is the most difficult one. There is a chance that while trying to prove that he is better than Messi/Pele/Maradona/Beckenbauer he'll end up winning the game on his own, but it can really go both ways.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Don't think that they are ideal on paper too though. It definitely limits Pele to an extent.
But if we talk about the personalities, I think Ronaldo is the most difficult one. There is a chance that while trying to prove that he is better than Messi/Pele/Maradona/Beckenbauer he'll end up winning the game on his own, but it can really go both ways.

This brings up an interesting point on Ronaldo. Which version is he? 07-10 or 13-16? or another 3 years?

 

[antohan]

Don't think that they are ideal on paper too though. It definitely limits Pele to an extent.
But if we talk about the personalities, I think Ronaldo is the most difficult one. There is a chance that while trying to prove that he is better than Messi/Pele/Maradona/Beckenbauer he'll end up winning the game on his own, but it can really go both ways.

very true.

I used to focus on such potential incompatibilities, personality clashes and possible negative repercusions, but most seemed to prefer it being said in jest than as serious arguments (mainly due to the impossibility of proving any argument) so I've long stopped bothering with it.

It's an absolutely huge dimension though. Fact is, for all the star quality, Skizzannah would have a better team with Luis Suárez on the pitch instead of Pelé.

 

[antohan]

This brings up an interesting point on Ronaldo. Which version is he? 07-10 or 13-16? or another 3 years?

I think the norm is that unless otherwise stated (younger winger version) it is the Real Madrid one.

 

[Skizzo]

Don't think that they are ideal on paper too though. It definitely limits Pele to an extent.
But if we talk about the personalities, I think Ronaldo is the most difficult one. There is a chance that while trying to prove that he is better than Messi/Pele/Maradona/Beckenbauer he'll end up winning the game on his own, but it can really go both ways.

You can call it limiting, but if you use the broad definition it could apply all over the field on both teams. As you said, Vieira and Tardelli being used deeper in a counter attacking set up. Messi and Ronaldo would both rather be the focal point of the attack, and both are at their best in completely different set ups at Barca and Madrid.

On the flip side, you can look at it as Pele (the younger goal scoring version here) would look to stretch the pitch, and would demand attention, leaving space for Diego to operate. Or Diego draws the attention, which leaves Pele more space in and around the box to do his damage. Or they both get locked down by Vieira and Tardelli trying to drop deeper (because let's be honest, Pirlo wouldn't offer much resistance against either of them defensively) which leaves that opportunity for Netto/Neeskens to burst forward, or Beckenbauer to orchestrate from deeper as none of the oppositions front three will be working defensively.

While it may look like just an assembly of star names, they're set up to work together and they offer too many variations of ways to win the match that the opposition isn't equipped to deal with.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

very true.

I used to focus on such potential incompatibilities, personality clashes and possible negative repercusions, but most seemed to prefer it being said in jest than as serious arguments (mainly due to the impossibility of proving any argument) so I've long stopped bothering with it.

It's an absolutely huge dimension though. Fact is, for all the star quality, Skizzannah would have a better team with Luis Suárez on the pitch instead of Pelé.

Good to know as that is something I have actually heavily focused on, especially trying to research those UChile guys last draft. its also why I really, really wanted Houseman with Maradona since Maradona rated Rene so highly and their personalities as well as styles really complement each other perfectly. But I can see your point here that its not always provable other than really public personality classes.

-----

On Keepers

The other thing I want to highlight is the role of keepers in these drafts. Are they just an afterthought or should their quality be taken into account?

If any draft match I have seen highlights the different in keeper quality its this one. Yashin is consensus best keeper of all time. Courtois is what, a top 5/6 keeper the last few years?

That is truthfully a massive difference in quality and if any match should highlight that, its this one in my opinion.

 

[Tuppet]

Sorry guys got an unexpected trip on my hands so would not be able to contribute too much. I'll try and find some time later to answer questions . Best of luck @Skizzo @Annahnomoss

 

[Tuppet]

@oneniltothearsenal Ronaldo is indeed the Madrid version.

 

[Skizzo]

Sorry guys got an unexpected trip on my hands so would not be able to contribute too much. I'll try and find some time later to answer questions . Best of luck @Skizzo @Annahnomoss

To you too mate!

 

[antohan]

Good to know as that is something I have actually heavily focused on, especially trying to research those UChile guys last draft. its also why I really, really wanted Houseman with Maradona since Maradona rated Rene so highly and their personalities as well as styles really complement each other perfectly. But I can see your point here that its not always provable other than really public personality classes.

-----

On Keepers

The other thing I want to highlight is the role of keepers in these drafts. Are they just an afterthought or should their quality be taken into account?

If any draft match I have seen highlights the different in keeper quality its this one. Yashin is consensus best keeper of all time. Courtois is what, a top 5/6 keeper the last few years?

That is truthfully a massive difference in quality and if any match should highlight that, its this one in my opinion.

I do still factor it in. Just no longer waste the time arguing. There's no doubt in my mind Diego and Houseman would perform better relative to the sum of parts than, say, Diego and CR7.

I did have that Chilean combo as a positive and great fit to the spirit of that 82 side. They had their weaknesses, but that was a mitigating plus in my book.

Keepers have been an issue for years. So much so that managers regularly forget to even put them on the tramsheet and leave Goalie on sharemytactics (it has happened at least three times).

You are right though. While I usually disagree with comparing CBs head to head but relative to the forwards faced, keepers certainly should be compared in terms of which is likely to produce a shutout just by being awesome themselves. Applies to Yashin more than it does Courtois, clearly.

 

[Tuppet]

Alright got some time. So as I mentioned in op the 2 issues in the Skizzannah team were Courtoius and Pele - Maradona chemistry . On first issue there's not much to say, Courtoius is pretty much the weakest player on the pitch. While Yashin can conceivably play a blinder and just keep out all comers, same would be hard to expect from Courtoius.

On Pele Maradona issue, it's not just the personality fit, it's also their tactical roles. I think harm expressed it nicely here

Countless IFFHS and Ballon D'Or ratings, as usual
Can't say that I find the opponent's team flawless -
Plus, while they are playing a young version of Pele, he still preferred to run at defenders with the ball from the deep, even then

But we cannot compare Pele and Maradona with Cristiano because we were players who came from behind. We played deeper. He plays in front. He's more like (the Brazilian) Ronaldo. This you can compare

Zidane and Zico were the most similar players to me

And even when I looked up Santos vs Penarol games, although they were closer to his 1970 peak, he looked almost like Di Stefano without the defensive side of his game though, he constantly dropped back to midfield or even holding midfield area.

 

[Skizzo]

Id be more curious about who's planning on stopping them running riot? The argument of "Pele and Maradona like to work in the same area" is all well and good (even though I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, since we already explained how they're both directed to play in this game) but I don't see anyone really equipped to deal with their threat.

Who stops Maradona from dictating play? Pirlo? I don't see him having any success there. Vieira and/or Tardelli? It's not in their game to play so deep and try and Mark someone out of the game, and then it leaves more space in midfield for Netto/Neeskens. Someone stepping out of defense? Blanc wouldn't have the pace to recover, and Shesternyov stepping out would leave the back line exposed to pace.

Who stops Pele from receiving the ball and linking play with one-twos with Sanchez or Maradona? Who stops him getting the ball in and around the box and finishing with his predatory instinct? We're talking about two undisputed GOATs, and no one of their caliber on the other side defensively to stop them. To stop them, you'd need a whole team set up to counter their threat (think a Mourinho job vs a Barca team) but instead, there's three attackers on the other side who are passengers defensively. There's two midfielders who aren't players who ever thrived playing in a counter attacking system and having to sit deep and soak pressure. A defensive midfielder who is more creative than defensive, and in a key area where the danger would come from.

Then on the flip side, we have arguably one of the best people capable of tracking Messi's runs. his whole game is based on stepping out of defense at key moments, and he'd be tracking right into the space Messi would hope to operate. Having the best player on the opposition trying to win the game against Beckenbauer would negate a lot of his threat. That's not even taking into the account that he's already rather wasted in a counter attacking team that is sitting deep, trying to soak pressure against Pele and Maradona.

 

[Tuppet]

Id be more curious about who's planning on stopping them running riot? The argument of "Pele and Maradona like to work in the same area" is all well and good (even though I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, since we already explained how they're both directed to play in this game) but I don't see anyone really equipped to deal with their threat.

Who stops Maradona from dictating play? Pirlo? I don't see him having any success there. Vieira and/or Tardelli? It's not in their game to play so deep and try and Mark someone out of the game, and then it leaves more space in midfield for Netto/Neeskens. Someone stepping out of defense? Blanc wouldn't have the pace to recover, and Shesternyov stepping out would leave the back line exposed to pace.

Who stops Pele from receiving the ball and linking play with one-twos with Sanchez or Maradona? Who stops him getting the ball in and around the box and finishing with his predatory instinct? We're talking about two undisputed GOATs, and no one of their caliber on the other side defensively to stop them. To stop them, you'd need a whole team set up to counter their threat (think a Mourinho job vs a Barca team) but instead, there's three attackers on the other side who are passengers defensively. There's two midfielders who aren't players who ever thrived playing in a counter attacking system and having to sit deep and soak pressure. A defensive midfielder who is more creative than defensive, and in a key area where the danger would come from.

Then on the flip side, we have arguably one of the best people capable of tracking Messi's runs. his whole game is based on stepping out of defense at key moments, and he'd be tracking right into the space Messi would hope to operate. Having the best player on the opposition trying to win the game against Beckenbauer would negate a lot of his threat. That's not even taking into the account that he's already rather wasted in a counter attacking team that is sitting deep, trying to soak pressure against Pele and Maradona.

Ofcourse Vieira and Tardelli are going to stop Maradona from dictating play, thats a given from my formation. I am not sure which two midfielders are you talking about who never thrived playing in counter attacking system. Tardelli played all his career in Zona-Mista which was a counter attacking system and won world cup with Italy 82 playing in counter attacking system. He was a defensive beast and sure he played with another defensive player but thats because he was incredibly talented on ball not because he was lacking in defensive acumen. Vieira won a world cup and European championship in incredibly defensive and counter attacking France team. He was again a great physical beast of a player who was considered rival of Keane throughout his Premiership years. Pirlo won another world cup in 2006 and couple of Champions league playing in counter attacking system. Sure he is not the most physical player but thats not what you need when you have Tardelli and Vieira in your team. All 3 of my midfielders are going to defend against Maradona, marking him anyway hardly works.

Not denying you have a great player in Beckenbauer who would obviously help, but than any defense is as strong as its weakest link and you clearly have the weakest player on the pitch in Courtious, infact you also have the second weakest player in Sanchez. Your defense is very good but it won't help when Courtious does this against any one of my forwards -

 

[Pat_Mustard]

On the Maradona/Pele chemistry issue, I'm only going off youtube videos and stuff i read elsewhere, but Maradona had a brilliant partnership with Miguel Brindisi, who played somewhat as a false 9 and alternated with Maradona during matches. Given that Pele also played brilliantly as an alternating No. 9 of sorts with Tostao, I think there's precedent for believing that Maradona/Pele would live up to billing. I'd also add that Skizzanah's syle of play doesn't seem particularly dependent on having a 'reference point' up front and looks more fluid than that.

On the other hand, their wings look a wee bit underwhelming at this stage, and Courtois is undoubtedly a weak link in comparison to Yashin.

 

[Tuppet]

On the Maradona/Pele chemistry issue, I'm only going off youtube videos and stuff i read elsewhere, but Maradona had a brilliant partnership with Miguel Brindisi, who played somewhat as a false 9 and alternated with Maradona during matches. Given that Pele also played brilliantly as an alternating No. 9 of sorts with Tostao, I think there's precedent for believing that Maradona/Pele would live up to billing. I'd also add that Skizzanah's syle of play doesn't seem particularly dependent on having a 'reference point' up front and looks more fluid than that.

On the other hand, their wings look a wee bit underwhelming at this stage, and Courtois is undoubtedly a weak link in comparison to Yashin.

I think the problem with those two partnerships is that in both Pele and Maradona took the role staying deeper and their partners restricted their game somewhat to play upfront. In Tostao's words -

Zagallo saw this and decided to try me out, but without much conviction that it would work. Before a training game in Mexico he came up to me and asked, “Do you think you could play up front without dropping back? I know it’s not your normal style, but what do you reckon?” And so I went out and did it. And I knew that with Pelé and Jairzinho bursting forward, very quick, goalscorers, very strong physically, aggressive, I knew that with technique, dribbles and passes, my style would work.

He stayed up, which allowed Pele to drop deep and do his playmaking bit. I don't know much about Brindisi - Maradona partnership but from quick youtube lookup it seem that Maradona is similarly playing deeper and Brindisi is playing more as 9 (he wore 9 as well). In both those partnerships neither Pele nor Maradona wants to be the man upfront, both want to drop deep and do their mazy dribbling and runs from deep. Now Pele's dropping back is not so much of a problem, its actually one of his strength but it would not be easy to accommodate two such players at their peak. Anyway enough on this, my view is that Pele - Maradona as sexy as it looks is not going to gel very well. Either with a proper 9 (Romario, Muller, Ronaldo etc) would have been far better partnership.

 

[Skizzo]

For all the talk of Pele and Maradona getting in each other's way, whatever you'd want a number 9 to do ahead of Diego, Pele can do.

The young version who racked up goals for fun is more than capable of leading the line, linking play, stretching space out on the field. To sit and say he's being wasted by playing with Diego is a bit silly, considering he's still as deadly a finisher as we could have ahead of Maradona. The downside of being such a complete player, is suddenly they get criticized when they aren't needed to do everything themselves.

I'm still unsure of how any of Maradona and Pele are being shackled in this game by a midfield that already is outmatched, a defense that isn't up to par, and a forward line that won't help with the defending. And that's still assuming Sanchez and Julinho don't decide to get involved while everyone focuses elsewhere

 

[Skizzo]

And for all the talk of Yashin having a blinder and keeping an attack of Diego and Pele quiet, just remember he's not perfect either


A goal direct from a corner, a close range finish, and rushing out looking far from convincing when the attacker runs through and taps into an empty net.

 

[Tuppet]

For all the talk of Pele and Maradona getting in each other's way, whatever you'd want a number 9 to do ahead of Diego, Pele can do.

The young version who racked up goals for fun is more than capable of leading the line, linking play, stretching space out on the field. To sit and say he's being wasted by playing with Diego is a bit silly, considering he's still as deadly a finisher as we could have ahead of Maradona. The downside of being such a complete player, is suddenly they get criticized when they aren't needed to do everything themselves.

I'm still unsure of how any of Maradona and Pele are being shackled in this game by a midfield that already is outmatched, a defense that isn't up to par, and a forward line that won't help with the defending. And that's still assuming Sanchez and Julinho don't decide to get involved while everyone focuses elsewhere

I agree with you there, don't think thats a game changing dynamic myself. Just wanted to convey that Maradona-Pele which looks extremely sexy and would tempt any voter to give vote for you team in hurry, is not really the greatest combination that could be. I agree that Pele can do all those things if he chooses to stay up and finish the chances Maradona feeds him, but would he do that or would he drop back and tries to do the thing he does best, which would clash with Maradona? I mean think it this way, Pele can probably do anything that say any top left winger can do and probably more, would you want him to play in left wing though ? Anyway as I said before its not an issue that is game changer, but it does show that you have lots of star power, but my team gels better and have less weak players.

 

[Tuppet]

And for all the talk of Yashin having a blinder and keeping an attack of Diego and Pele quiet, just remember he's not perfect either


A goal direct from a corner, a close range finish, and rushing out looking far from convincing when the attacker runs through and taps into an empty net.

Yashin's stats speak for him. 404 career games. 270 clean sheets. More than 150 penalties saved. Which goalie in history has even got half of that? Compare that to Courtious. The Yashin which conceded the goal from corner was an injured Yashin for most purposes.

After winning the 1960 European Nations’ Cup (essentially the European Championships) the Soviet Union was expected to contend for the World Cup in 1962. Unfortunately, Yashin’s adventurous style, coupled with a lack of laws protecting goalkeepers, meant he sustained two concussions during the tournament. His style of play was advancing faster than the laws of the game could keep up, and he paid a heavy price.

Somehow, Yashin kept playing throughout the tournament, but was well below his best. The Soviets were eliminated in the first knockout round, accompanied by speculation that the great Yashin was past his prime. The speculation was wrong.

The following year, 1963, Yashin silenced his critics when, concussion-free, he put in a stunning performance in an England vs, Rest of the World XI match and won the European Footballer of the Year award (the predecessor to the Ballon d’Or), the only goalkeeper to ever do so. In 1966 the Soviet Union returned to the World Cup and finished fourth, their best ever placing at the World Cup.

 

[antohan]

About to reach half time...

 

[Skizzo]

I agree with you there, don't think thats a game changing dynamic myself. Just wanted to convey that Maradona-Pele which looks extremely sexy and would tempt any voter to give vote for you team in hurry, is not really the greatest combination that could be. I agree that Pele can do all those things if he chooses to stay up and finish the chances Maradona feeds him, but would he do that or would he drop back and tries to do the thing he does best, which would clash with Maradona? I mean think it this way, Pele can probably do anything that say any top left winger can do and probably more, would you want him to play in left wing though ? Anyway as I said before its not an issue that is game changer, but it does show that you have lots of star power, but my team gels better and have less weak players.

No I do get the discussion points, as yeah, it takes away part of what made Pele so special is his all round game. I just didn't quite get some of the comments making it sound like he'd struggle to make an impact. Not aimed at you directly, as I think you've been quite fair in your remarks as to their partnership

Yashin's stats speak for him. 404 career games. 270 clean sheets. More than 150 penalties saved. Which goalie in history has even got half of that? Compare that to Courtious. The Yashin which conceded the goal from corner was an injured Yashin for most purposes.

It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, there's obviously nothing bad I can say about Yashin!

 

[Tuppet]

About to reach half time...

Happening anytime soon ? I am about to sleep.

 

[antohan]

Incredible scenes at Cafstadium!

Confused after years of competing with El Diego, Bergomi slides through Maradona with a reckless tackle!

"Pendejo de mierda! I'm playing with you!" says El Diego.

"Vaffanculo! I enjoyed that anyway".

The ref is reaching for a card here...

Maradona complains and tries to reason with the ref, but he is having none of it.

GIUSEPPE BERGOMI IS SENT OFF!

@Skizzo @Annahnomoss, you are allowed one substitution

 

[antohan]

Happening anytime soon ? I am about to sleep.

It worked the other way around, my baby boys decided to stop doing it

 

[antohan]

But wait! Patrick Vieira is angry! Very angry!

"Nobody is upstaging me as the biggest tit on the pitch!"

So as Ronaldo enters the box and is about to shoot at Courtois...

The ref knows he needs to stop this madness.

PATRICK VIEIRA IS SENT OFF!

@Tuppet, you are allowed one sub

 

[harms]

Yashin's stats speak for him. 404 career games. 270 clean sheets. More than 150 penalties saved. Which goalie in history has even got half of that? Compare that to Courtious. The Yashin which conceded the goal from corner was an injured Yashin for most purposes.

207/438