"Man United fans need to re-educate themselves ”- Rio Ferdinand

[Tincanalley]

A majority of the contributions to this thread - for and against the views put by the OP - are among the main reasons I love Redcafe. A great read.

 

[7even]

Great post Sphaero!

Not much to add except that I think that BFS will be more dynamic and make more offensive runs now when he starts to gets his fitness back. That will give us more options going forward. Another thing is how we will use Martial's pace and acceleration.

This season the key will be if Rooney gets his form back. We needs goals and without his presence we are thin up front.

 

[iammemphis]

Its also identifying players that can handle the pressure st a club like United. We have already seen young Depay struggle to make an impact in the league despite his promise. Im not knocking him obviously, he will need time. But it has been so long since we have had a player like Martial (going by his debut) who can score a goal just by his own simple brilliance.

These are rare players, and its always a massive gamble trying to get them in. Look at Falcao and Di Maria. RVP had it to some extent in his first season. Rooney looks to no longer have it and Mata looks superb but he's not quick enough to burn down the flank.

We just need to get these players in, Martial is a great sign for the future if his debut goal is a sign of things to come, but look at the fee it took to get him here.

 

[Sphaero]

@Sphaero van Gaal just took over a team a team that had been playing a completely different style, he basically had to start from scratch. Obviously his team is looking a lot less refined than team like Barca or Bayern who have been playing and perfecting possession football for many years now. His attacking personal also isn't the best, so to me it seems natural that he seems to be trying to work his way from defense to attack, by working on the basic principles of possession football and a solid defense first and then go from there and work on the attack and penetration.
And because of that I think it's too impatient to keep criticizing him already.

You know, there is a reason why I included Borussia Dortmund in my post and it was not only because I support them or know them very well.

For half a decade the BVB was used as a prime example of an exciting counter attacking side, which did not need more possesion than the opponent to dominate him. It was the same style, which broke our neck last season, though, because the focus on pressing and transitioning had grown way too strong and we lacked any alternatives. Sooner or later it became obvious that the team needed new ideas, new impulses.

So, thankfully, the coach which defined us for so long showed enough class to take his hat instead of clinging on his lucrative seat and made way for a new promising coach.

The state of the squad was worrying to put it mildly. The majority of the players have played their worst season in their careers, several were mentally on the ground, several contemplated leaving the club to have fresh start elsewhere.

Tuchel started in July with one and half months to prepare the team for the EL qualifier, while having a promotional tour inbetween.

Now, three months in we went from one spectrum to the other. Instead of always searching for the most direct way, we now wait patiently for the right opportunities. The passing game has improved significantly and instead of losing our head when we get behind we have enough confidence in our way to continue to play our possesion based style, while still being able to punish greatly on the break if the opponent gives us the chance.

We are successful again and it did not even take some groundbreaking or completely new tactics. I mean using width to stretch defenses, lay ups to the center of the box or fast flank changes are not tactics invented by Tuchel, they have been around for a few decades. It is rather about them being refined, well executed and simply suiting the players strengths.


Now, I´m not saying that this kind of rapid development should be expected, nobody expected such a positive development at our club, but it does show that a change in tactics does not need to take an eternity.

At some point the argument about the dire squad LVG inherited and his change of style loses weight. He now had more than a season and three transfer windows with basically unlimited budget to shape the squad to his liking and he changed a lot. I also don´t let the argument about the less ideal attacking options count. He chooses to play Mata on the wing, where he loses most of his impact as midfielder. He sold van Persie and Hernandez, which led to Fellaini playing forward for you guys instead of the injured Rooney, which would make for a good laugh if it were not so sad. He loaned out Januzaj without bringing someone in, costing him another option in the offensive midfield.

He made you more solid in the defense, I give him that. Signing two quality midfielder and an actual RB does that and his tactics clearly improve overall stability. However, a club like United should be more than about being defensively solid.

I don´t actually want to sound so harsh and would really like my favourite English team to do well, especially as I can follow the EPL more this season than the last few years. There is one question I ask myself for a while, though: Where is the improvement in the offense? Maybe someone can answer me that, because I don´t see it. I mean, it does not have to be perfect or super skilled or always successful, but there has to be at least some development in a year. I think the thing which worries me the most, is when I watch United nowadays they feel more like a team which plays not to lose instead of going for the win. I lost count, how many situations there were when a player had the opportunity to play an opening pass or was in a decent shooting position, and instead of going for it, maybe taking a tiny risk, he passed the ball sideways or backwards. Possession for possession´s sake. Either the players lack confidence or they tactically ordered to play like that to not move out of this corset LvG put around this team for any reason. In both cases it is down to the manager.

 

[do.ob]

You know, there is a reason why I included Borussia Dortmund in my post and it was not only because I support them or know them very well.

For half a decade the BVB was used as a prime example of an exciting counter attacking side, which did not need more possesion than the opponent to dominate him. It was the same style, which broke our neck last season, though, because the focus on pressing and transitioning had grown way too strong and we lacked any alternatives. Sooner or later it became obvious that the team needed new ideas, new impulses.

So, thankfully, the coach which defined us for so long showed enough class to take his hat instead of clinging on his lucrative seat and made way for a new promising coach.

The state of the squad was worrying to put it mildly. The majority of the players have played their worst season in their careers, several were mentally on the ground, several contemplated leaving the club to have fresh start elsewhere.

Tuchel started in July with one and half months to prepare the team for the EL qualifier, while having a promotional tour inbetween.

Now, three months in we went from one spectrum to the other. Instead of always searching for the most direct way, we now wait patiently for the right opportunities. The passing game has improved significantly and instead of losing our head when we get behind we have enough confidence in our way to continue to play our possesion based style, while still being able to punish greatly on the break if the opponent gives us the chance.

We are successful again and it did not even take some groundbreaking or completely new tactics. I mean using width to stretch defenses, lay ups to the center of the box or fast flank changes are not tactics invented by Tuchel, they have been around for a few decades. It is rather about them being refined, well executed and simply suiting the players strengths.


Now, I´m not saying that this kind of rapid development should be expected, nobody expected such a positive development at our club, but it does show that a change in tactics does not need to take an eternity.

At some point the argument about the dire squad LVG inherited and his change of style loses weight. He now had more than a season and three transfer windows with basically unlimited budget to shape the squad to his liking and he changed a lot. I also don´t let the argument about the less ideal attacking options count. He chooses to play Mata on the wing, where he loses most of his impact as midfielder. He sold van Persie and Hernandez, which led to Fellaini playing forward for you guys instead of the injured Rooney, which would make for a good laugh if it were not so sad. He loaned out Januzaj without bringing someone in, costing him another option in the offensive midfield.

He made you more solid in the defense, I give him that. Signing two quality midfielder and an actual RB does that and his tactics clearly improve overall stability. However, a club like United should be more than about being defensively solid.

I don´t actually want to sound so harsh and would really like my favourite English team to do well, especially as I can follow the EPL more this season than the last few years. There is one question I ask myself for a while, though: Where is the improvement in the offense? Maybe someone can answer me that, because I don´t see it. I mean, it does not have to be perfect or super skilled or always successful, but there has to be at least some development in a year. I think the thing which worries me the most, is when I watch United nowadays they feel more like a team which plays not to lose instead of going for the win. I lost count, how many situations there were when a player had the opportunity to play an opening pass or was in a decent shooting position, and instead of going for it, maybe taking a tiny risk, he passed the ball sideways or backwards. Possession for possession´s sake. Either the players lack confidence or they tactically ordered to play like that to not move out of this corset LvG put around this team for any reason. In both cases it is down to the manager.

And there is a reason why I ignored Dortmund. First of all they are not an established possession team yet. They've had a good start to the season against mediocre to terrible opponents, it's still too early to judge things.
Secondly the foundation Tuchel had to work with wasn't bad. Dortmund were already playing with an extremely high line and knew how to execute an effective pressing. If we go by current form Tuchel also has way better players at his disposal (I know that's in part also because the team as a whole is working) than van Gaal, so let's wait how things look when Mkhitaryan won't average roughly an assist and a goal each every 90 minutes or until Weigl's age kicks in and he doesn't play like a young Busquets or what happens when their CB playing at RB doesn't get 1 goal and 4 assists in 3 games or until Aubameyang doesn't get 9 goals 3 assists in 9 games. The fact that Sahin was injured almost all of last season, Gündogan wasn't fit at all and the team in general had a mental problem/injury crisis also made the contrast between Tuchel and Klopp look a lot bigger than it actually is.
Dortmund also had the necessary amount of luck when they needed it: when their attack didn't look nearly as threatening as it has in other games this season they got an early can opener from a corner and against Hannover Felipe basically gifted them three goals.

I strongly disagree with van Gaals offensive transfers too, but I think this thread is about more than that.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Control's great but it shouldn't be at the detriment of creating chances or taking risks. We plod along, Barca and Bayern clearly don't. There's a real purpose to their possession... To fashion chances. Our philosophy is making sure the opposition doesn't create chances against us.

I agree it shouldn't but I don't think it is. There is a problem with creating chances, but it's not caused by the control. I think it's caused by the change in style, not by the new style itself.

 

[junglemusic]

Remember when we all knocked Barcelona for playing keep ball and we said it was boring?
.

They had an end product.

 

[Xaviesta]

Bayern were a possession team that season though when they won the treble. It was only vs Barcelona that they played on the counter.

People seem to think Bayern were a counter attacking that season when they weren't. They were capable of playing on the counter, but they had the 2nd highest possession average from Europe's top 5 leagues that season IIRC.

I wouldn't describe Bayern as possession heavy that season, but i certainly wouldn't describe them as a team that set up to play on the counter as their preferred way of playing. I think those two games where they smashed Barcelona left a lasting impression on some. Below is the average possession stats enjoyed by the top 8 teams in this category in the 2012-13 season.

http://www.slideshare.net/Lawrence10/a-football-season-in-statistics-201213

 

[Needham]

No one find it ironic that a recently retired footballer with no other skill set is suddenly asserting that tens of millions of other people need to re-educate themselves.

 

[do.ob]

I wouldn't describe Bayern as possession heavy that season, but i certainly wouldn't describe them as a team that set up to play on the counter as their preferred way of playing. I think those two games where they smashed Barcelona left a lasting impression on some. Below is the average possession stats enjoyed by the top 8 teams in this category in the 2012-13 season.


http://www.slideshare.net/Lawrence10/a-football-season-in-statistics-201213

I'm sorry. but if the team with the second most possession in Europe (with 5 percentage points on the third team) isn't possession heavy then who is?

Bayern's strength that season was that they knew perfectly well when they had to play direct and when it was better to act more patiently. But their basis was still about controlling the game via having the ball and not giving it away needlessly.

 

[Xaviesta]

I'm sorry. but if the team with the second most possession in Europe (with 5 percentage points on the third team) isn't possession heavy then who is?

Bayern's strength that season was that they knew perfectly well when they had to play direct and when it was better to act more patiently. But their basis was still about controlling the game via having the ball and not giving it away needlessly.

To me anything higher than 65% possession is possession heavy.

 

[dave2528]

...To put it simply, United right now appears to be a team which is hard to beat, but has at the same time a hard time scoring goals / winning without massive effort. An higher emphasis on set pieces could help them to score the crucial 1:0, which naturally draws the opposing team out of their really defensive states (worked wonders for Dortmund in 2013/2014, who also had a hard time vs. very defensive opponents). That or they could hope for one of the offensive players really hitting top form and managing to score by flashes of brilliance (see Martial´s goal or Depay´s perfomance vs. Brügge). Given the rather short list of players with a big goal threat, the chances for that happening are not the best, though.

Very good post.

I do think, however, that the issues on the offensive side will begin to work themselves out once the players become more used to playing with one another. It may take several individual performances to get us going at this point in the season but, I think as the season progresses and as these players have the chance to bed in and learn what it is that each of them are wanting to do and are capable of doing, that we see a more cohesive and consistent threat and, that we produce better offensive results week in and week out.

 

[Offside]

This whole ''losing our identity'' thing is such bullshit.

After the post-Ferguson Moyes disaster we needed somebody to come in and pull up the carpet in the club so to speak, and replace with a new one as quickly as possible. This was needed to get us back into the Champions League as quick as possible.

Doing this would be made a million times harder if we didn't allow it to happen unless we were playing 4-4 fecking 2 with pacey wingers and free-flowing football.

Van Gaal is here to lay the foundations for somebody else to take us on and win the doubles and trebles. He is making us efficient and harder to beat, making sure the first goal is the win games to get us back into Europe (already done) and then get us back to challenging to trophies (aim this season).

If it was 2019 and we were still playing this brand of Football, with no youth graduates through in years and barely any silverware maybe the fans need to look at what the feck is going on. Right now we are in the inevitable transitional phase from Ferguson's departure.

Forget the brand of Football and traditions, this is all about staying up there to make sure we don't go down the path we did after Sir Matt left. It's not as though every game is 0-0 and we haven't given lots of young players their debuts anyway.

 

[Rossa]

No one find it ironic that a recently retired footballer with no other skill set is suddenly asserting that tens of millions of other people need to re-educate themselves.

Not ironic at all considering he seems pretty capable of investing his money. Although not possessing a higher degree in law or medicine, I don't doubt for a second that he has a skill set transcending that of kicking a ball.

 

[cyberman]

Seems that our former players need to re-educate themselves over what United are about before they preach to our fans about the fact.
With all the flying wingers and getting crosses into the box over Sir Alex reign, apart from 2007-10 we failed in Europe by and large.
I want us to be the team that other top teams have to adjust to. Not playing our no 1 striker on the left because their winger is a threat or Ji Sung Park in the middle because their deep laying midfielder dictates play.

 

[Kounan]

No they don´t. Just because all these teams use dominance by possession does not make them similar in style. That is like saying every counter attacking side was similar to Klopp´s Dortmund, which is just as untrue. There are vital differences to the systems of Bayern, Barcelona or Dortmund.

This starts with the focus of the systems. If I would have to describe United´s current theme in one word it would be "composure": composure on the ball and in terms of organisation. It is hard to catch them on the counter or disorganized. The whole setup is very stable, which can be seen the most in the midfield. Van Gaal clearly prefers a pair of more defensivily minded central midfielder, basically playing with two anchor players, which helps their back line a lot and irons it out. It works very well to isolate the opposing striker. This is a stark difference to the other mentioned teams, who all play with one defensive minded player in front of the defense line, who is supposed to stabilize and balance the formation. This frees up an additional player for the more advanced (in terms of positioning) creative role in the center. Guardiola even "sacrifices" a defender from time to time to get a number advantage in that area.

Like United every possession orientated team faces the main challenge of cracking heavy deep lying defenses. These parked buses are not created only out of a feeling of inferiority in terms of playing strength but are also a direct result of the system. If one setup is supposed to get as much time as possible on the ball, the other will normally not chase the ball around all the time, but rather sit deep, limit the space in the final third as much as possible and hope for a chance on the counter.

Each of the mentioned teams use different tools to break these defenses:

Barcelona has still a huge focus on passing strength, especially accuracy. They circulate the ball nearly perfectly, while waiting for an opportunity to get the ball to their front three, who are all extremely strong dribblers, who either score by themselves or bind defenders to create space for the other two.

Bayern has also a high emphasis on passing, but their even bigger focus lies on positioning. The reason why Guardiola is so pendantic about that, is that it makes them the strongest team when it comes to playing between the opposing lines. They use their fast wingers, who function more like inward forwards and cut into the box from the side, to wreak havoc there, they have with Müller an extremely intelligent player who is a pain to defend and has a rather unique eye for space and with Lewandowski arguably the strongest striker in the world when it comes to shielding the ball and playing with the back towards the goal.

Dortmund´s answer is a very offensive use of the fullbacks. This is in itself not that different to United with Darmian and Shaw, but they use it to intentionally overload one wing to stretch the opposing defense and disrupt their organisation. Once that is accomplished there are multiple ways to create chances: a cross or through pass to Aubameyang inside the box, who is very good in finding goal scoring positions very quickly, hoping for Kagawa to use his strength in crowded places to slip through the cracks, a lay up to the edge of the box where the extremely strong shooters Reus and Mkhitaryan wait or a simple flank change to the other fullback, who is now mostly unguarded and can send the ball right into the center of the box with a single touch.

Now, what are United´s options? Well, there are not many. The problem lies in the above mentioned system. While it is very stable, organized and gives a lot of control, it is also a double edged sword because it is very rigid. This makes it rather predictable and thus easier to defend. It puts an even higher emphasis on the indiviual skill of the offensive players, because they often face tougher situations as result of the opposing defense managing to prepare better.

To put it simply, United right now appears to be a team which is hard to beat, but has at the same time a hard time scoring goals / winning without massive effort. An higher emphasis on set pieces could help them to score the crucial 1:0, which naturally draws the opposing team out of their really defensive states (worked wonders for Dortmund in 2013/2014, who also had a hard time vs. very defensive opponents). That or they could hope for one of the offensive players really hitting top form and managing to score by flashes of brilliance (see Martial´s goal or Depay´s perfomance vs. Brügge). Given the rather short list of players with a big goal threat, the chances for that happening are not the best, though.

I agree with the way you have described the teams, but I think that you are wrong with one thing. It is true that we have problems creating chances, but it's only because of our set up, but also because our striker is on horrible form (he can't play a simple one-two), and the second player who is supposed to be to score goals and create a lot is in a very poor form in the PL (Depay). So we are basically playing with nine players. Of course, it's LVG's choice as he is deciding who is going to play, but the system is, even now, allowing us to create more chances.

Against Tottenham we had 2, or 3 great chances to counter attack, because we pressed in the middle and from all these situation we didn't creat a half chance. That can't be down to the system, but has to do with the players who are counter attacking.

Against Newcastle we had some chances, but also we had few great through balls were our strikers made horrible mistakes, especially Depay in the first half. On top of that our full back had at least 6-7 great situation to cross the ball (alone on the edge of the box, with players inside and on the edge waiting for the ball) and they couldn't get it past the first opponent.

Against Swansea Rooney again was horrible and a decent striker would have scored at least once.

Now, don't get me wrong, we still don't create to much, that's for sure (and you are right about us trying not to allow the opponent to surprise us), but the set up did allow us to creat more chances then we actually did, and in games I have mentioned most of the chances were in the first half, were we could have killed the game of earlier or at least have a goal, or two goal lead at half time which would make the oppoent play differently later on. With better striker, or with Depay and Rooney in any kind of form we would look much more dangerous.

 

[.Rossi]

"Rio, Moyes or chips?"

"Chips...."

 

[VeevaVee]

Remember when Barcelona embarrassed us 2 times in a row in the final and we all silently thought in ourselves "wish we played like that with the world applauding our fantastic play"?

Dont compare us to the Barcelona squad of pep. We dont play lik it tactic wise and we are 1/10 of the team quality wise.

People making fun of Barcelona for being boring were probably deluded or just extremely jealous of them. They were scoring goals for fun for the most part pissing all over the top teams making a fool out of them and winning more trophies than anyone in the process. We play nothing like that Barca team, not yet. They were anything but boring.

The differences are many IMHO, not the least of which is end product. Barcelona routinely faced bunkers so it could appear that they were merely recycling possession but Van Gaal is doing this without facing parked buses

They had an end product.

That's the joke....

 

[Spoony]

Barcelona were great to watch. They loved attacking and all. In fact they took the game to a whole new level. I'd love for us to play that brand of football.

 

[itso 7]

I agree with the way you have described the teams, but I think that you are wrong with one thing. It is true that we have problems creating chances, but it's only because of our set up, but also because our striker is on horrible form (he can't play a simple one-two), and the second player who is supposed to be to score goals and create a lot is in a very poor form in the PL (Depay). So we are basically playing with nine players. Of course, it's LVG's choice as he is deciding who is going to play, but the system is, even now, allowing us to create more chances.

Against Tottenham we had 2, or 3 great chances to counter attack, because we pressed in the middle and from all these situation we didn't creat a half chance. That can't be down to the system, but has to do with the players who are counter attacking.

Against Newcastle we had some chances, but also we had few great through balls were our strikers made horrible mistakes, especially Depay in the first half. On top of that our full back had at least 6-7 great situation to cross the ball (alone on the edge of the box, with players inside and on the edge waiting for the ball) and they couldn't get it past the first opponent.

Against Swansea Rooney again was horrible and a decent striker would have scored at least once.

Now, don't get me wrong, we still don't create to much, that's for sure (and you are right about us trying not to allow the opponent to surprise us), but the set up did allow us to creat more chances then we actually did, and in games I have mentioned most of the chances were in the first half, were we could have killed the game of earlier or at least have a goal, or two goal lead at half time which would make the oppoent play differently later on. With better striker, or with Depay and Rooney in any kind of form we would look much more dangerous.

You are definitely right mate. We are bemoaning the lack of chances but discount how many chances that fail to progress beyond a nice idea due to poor individual play or wrong decisions beinh made. For example Rooney's turnover that led to the Swansea equalizer was a good piece of play ruined by the player failing to execute a simple pass. Things like this have happened far too often but all people see is a sterile system that has castrated our creative players when it is those players that are failing to do things right.

 

[Ainu]

Barça were only boring when it wasn't working out anymore, I guess somewhere between the time Pep had left and last season. In that period they still played their possession game but without the frequent bursts of tempo and incisive passing, more like us under Van Gaal (though still significantly better overall). It's all relative of course, as they were still a good team then full of world class players and it was exaggerated because of the contrast with how incredible they had been before that. But I can see why people considered that particular Barça side boring. Those all conquering Guardiola teams were sensational to watch.