Yeah but in no way where we playing this retain possession slow tempo side passing work ball into box football either. We never did with SAF. And if it wasnt for us being unlucky enough to coincide with one of the greatest teams ever we would probably have another 2 champions cups in our trophy too.I don't think we played in our PL way when we won the CL in 2008. In fact a reason why we improved in Europe was because Ferguson took a more measured approach.
People making fun of Barcelona for being boring were probably deluded or just extremely jealous of them. They were scoring goals for fun for the most part pissing all over the top teams making a fool out of them and winning more trophies than anyone in the process. We play nothing like that Barca team, not yet. They were anything but boring.Remember when we all knocked Barcelona for playing keep ball and we said it was boring?
Well it's like that except it is actually mostly boring.
Because Gary Neviile has feck all to do with the club and was merely voicing his opinion.I clearly remember Gary Neville stating about Moyes that "the club will change him, he'll have to" when asked whether Moyes would get the chance to change Uniteds style of play to a style Moyes was more noted for.
Why is that its acceptable for LvG to completely change the style of the club?
My guess is when Giggsey takes the reigns we'll be back to flowing pacey you score 1 we'll score two football we all know and love so much.
And that was by a considerable distance the most stupid thing Gary Neville has ever said at Sky Sports.I clearly remember Gary Neville stating about Moyes that "the club will change him, he'll have to" when asked whether Moyes would get the chance to change Uniteds style of play to a style Moyes was more noted for.
Why is that its acceptable for LvG to completely change the style of the club?
My guess is when Giggsey takes the reigns we'll be back to flowing pacey you score 1 we'll score two football we all know and love so much.
They were only boring to people with low attention spans.People making fun of Barcelona for being boring were probably deluded or just extremely jealous of them. They were scoring goals for fun for the most part pissing all over the top teams making a fool out of them and winning more trophies than anyone in the process. We play nothing like that Barca team, not yet. They were anything but boring.
And he didn't last longSexton was not known for attacking play.
I agree @Kag ... As for Ferdinand, I see him following United closely on Twitter. I think you have to put his words in the right context as a dedicated supporter as well as a United great as a player. The article is written up by Hytner as if it was a criticism of the new approach. But he says "United will be better equipped for success in the Champions League this season, because of their slower, more patient approach"... different does not equate with bad. I get the sense that the opinions offered by Rio were more measured and balanced than the clickbait type spin put on them.And that was by a considerable distance the most stupid thing Gary Neville has ever said at Sky Sports.
Following said advice (or trying to) crippled Moyes, and it would do the same to Van Gaal. The fact that the latter is doing this job in his own way is evidence of his character and experience.
Just because Giggs can get the job and state: "right lads, let's attack 'em," doesn't mean that he understands how to set up a team to attack successfully and win games as a result.
It's just words. Cheap talk.
Sexton was not known for attacking play.
Are traditional wingers a dying breed now? Yes there are lots of pacey players about, but it doesn't mean they can play as wingers in the United style. It's no good being fast if you can't run with the ball or put the ball into the area.Yeah but in no way where we playing this retain possession slow tempo side passing work ball into box football either. We never did with SAF. And if it wasnt for us being unlucky enough to coincide with one of the greatest teams ever we would probably have another 2 champions cups in our trophy too.
With SAF it was always pacey wings, wether it was 442 451 or 433.
Because United signed a coach with a clear philosophy, you don't sign LVG and tell him to change what he did his all career.I clearly remember Gary Neville stating about Moyes that "the club will change him, he'll have to" when asked whether Moyes would get the chance to change Uniteds style of play to a style Moyes was more noted for.
Why is that its acceptable for LvG to completely change the style of the club?
My guess is when Giggsey takes the reigns we'll be back to flowing pacey you score 1 we'll score two football we all know and love so much.
Bayern with Van gaal and PSG with Ancelotti. Both were saved by Robben, Ibrahimovic and Ribery.what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity?
City, Barcelona and Bayern all play possession football. Juve as well if I'm not mistaken.This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.
But nah, just ignore all that to create some weird bullshit argument to justify our inability to try and score goals...what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity? I mean if it is about us "catching up" with everyone else, how come we're the only team that does it? What are we modernising from exactly?
It just sounds like people trying to justify why we're so boring by creating a non existent scenario where it is necessary for us to be. It just isn't. If it brings success enough people willl tolerate it but if it doesn't then it offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
The differences are many IMHO, not the least of which is end product. Barcelona routinely faced bunkers so it could appear that they were merely recycling possession but Van Gaal is doing this without facing parked busesRemember when we all knocked Barcelona for playing keep ball and we said it was boring?
Well it's like that except it is actually mostly boring.
If you don't watch football, that's a fair assessment.Possession football and waiting for a chance is great when you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi otherwise it's boring as feck. Take Bayern for example, most exciting team in the world during the CL winning season, then Pep took over and killed it.
We do faced parked buses. Liverpool did that in the first half yesterday as did Newcastle. Away from home, we don't.The differences are many IMHO, not the least of which is end product. Barcelona routinely faced bunkers so it could appear that they were merely recycling possession but Van Gaal is doing this without facing parked buses
How can you be sure that you would have won 3/5?This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.t
I could be wrong but I seem to recall us playing a very cautious style in Europe. In fact, our success in Europe came from us playing a more conservative style. We defended well and played a counter attacking game mainly. There was nothing gung ho about it. The difference with our play now is that instead of giving the other team the ball we're the ones with the ball most of the time now and thus we don't have the counter attacking component.This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.
But nah, just ignore all that to create some weird bullshit argument to justify our inability to try and score goals...what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity? I mean if it is about us "catching up" with everyone else, how come we're the only team that does it? What are we modernising from exactly?
It just sounds like people trying to justify why we're so boring by creating a non existent scenario where it is necessary for us to be. It just isn't. If it brings success enough people willl tolerate it but if it doesn't then it offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
Was coming to say this! We only started to succeed in Europe when Fergie decided to take a cautious approach.I could be wrong but I seem to recall us playing a very cautious style in Europe. In fact, our success in Europe came from us playing a more conservative style. We defended well and played a counter attacking game mainly. There was nothing gung ho about it. The difference with our play now is that instead of giving the other team the ball we're the ones with the ball most of the time now and thus we don't have the counter attacking component.
Its forgotten now but Barcelona and Spain especially got a lot of abuse for their football style.Possession football and waiting for a chance is great when you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi otherwise it's boring as feck. Take Bayern for example, most exciting team in the world during the CL winning season, then Pep took over and killed it.
Absolute nonsense. Virtually every team that isn't Top 6, and even some top 6 sides, park the bus against us. It's why we have trouble breaking them down.The differences are many IMHO, not the least of which is end product. Barcelona routinely faced bunkers so it could appear that they were merely recycling possession but Van Gaal is doing this without facing parked buses
Top 4 Teams in last year's CL in terms of possession were: Barca > Bayern > Real > Juventus. Notice a trend? Dortmund were the go to team for fast paced direct football for quite a while, their squad is still almost the same that was build around that style. Guess how much possession they average this season: 58% - 3% more than United. [Squawka]This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.
But nah, just ignore all that to create some weird bullshit argument to justify our inability to try and score goals...what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity? I mean if it is about us "catching up" with everyone else, how come we're the only team that does it? What are we modernising from exactly?
It just sounds like people trying to justify why we're so boring by creating a non existent scenario where it is necessary for us to be. It just isn't. If it brings success enough people willl tolerate it but if it doesn't then it offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
Bayern were a possession team that season though when they won the treble. It was only vs Barcelona that they played on the counter.Possession football and waiting for a chance is great when you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi otherwise it's boring as feck. Take Bayern for example, most exciting team in the world during the CL winning season, then Pep took over and killed it.
No they don´t. Just because all these teams use dominance by possession does not make them similar in style. That is like saying every counter attacking side was similar to Klopp´s Dortmund, which is just as untrue. There are vital differences to the systems of Bayern, Barcelona or Dortmund.Top 4 Teams in last year's CL in terms of possession were: Barca > Bayern > Real > Juventus. Notice a trend? Dortmund were the go to team for fast paced direct football for quite a while, their squad is still almost the same that was build around that style. Guess how much possession they average this season: 58% - 3% more than United. [Squawka]
If you want to be successful over a long period you need to be able to control games and have the tools to keep up circulation in dangerous areas, at least that's what the past few seasons seem to sugggest.
Bayern and Barcelona, two of the top three teams in the Europe right now, play football rather similar to van Gaal. You might argue that he laid the foundation for Bayern's style during his time there.
The huge difference in contrast to United's previous style is precisely the reason why people should be more patient towards van Gaal. He's laying the foundation of a true European top team again, by teaching the players how to control a game. Penetration comes next, but you have to take one step after the other.
Cracking post. The way we're set up, we struggle when we go a goal behind. In fact we don't seem to create many chances, full stop - United had one shot on target from open play against Liverpool. Control's great but it shouldn't be at the detriment of creating chances or taking risks. We plod along, Barca and Bayern clearly don't. There's a real purpose to their possession... To fashion chances. Our philosophy is making sure the opposition doesn't create chances against us.No they don´t. Just because all these teams use dominance by possession does not make them similar in style. That is like saying every counter attacking side was similar to Klopp´s Dortmund, which is just as untrue. There are vital differences to the systems of Bayern, Barcelona or Dortmund.
This starts with the focus of the systems. If I would have to describe United´s current theme in one word it would be "composure": composure on the ball and in terms of organisation. It is hard to catch them on the counter or disorganized. The whole setup is very stable, which can be seen the most in the midfield. Van Gaal clearly prefers a pair of more defensivily minded central midfielder, basically playing with two anchor players, which helps their back line a lot and irons it out. It works very well to isolate the opposing striker. This is a stark difference to the other mentioned teams, who all play with one defensive minded player in front of the defense line, who is supposed to stabilize and balance the formation. This frees up an additional player for the more advanced (in terms of positioning) creative role in the center. Guardiola even "sacrifices" a defender from time to time to get a number advantage in that area.
Like United every possession orientated team faces the main challenge of cracking heavy deep lying defenses. These parked buses are not created only out of a feeling of inferiority in terms of playing strength but are also a direct result of the system. If one setup is supposed to get as much time as possible on the ball, the other will normally not chase the ball around all the time, but rather sit deep, limit the space in the final third as much as possible and hope for a chance on the counter.
Each of the mentioned teams use different tools to break these defenses:
Barcelona has still a huge focus on passing strength, especially accuracy. They circulate the ball nearly perfectly, while waiting for an opportunity to get the ball to their front three, who are all extremely strong dribblers, who either score by themselves or bind defenders to create space for the other two.
Bayern has also a high emphasis on passing, but their even bigger focus lies on positioning. The reason why Guardiola is so pendantic about that, is that it makes them the strongest team when it comes to playing between the opposing lines. They use their fast wingers, who function more like inward forwards and cut into the box from the side, to wreak havoc there, they have with Müller an extremely intelligent player who is a pain to defend and has a rather unique eye for space and with Lewandowski arguably the strongest striker in the world when it comes to shielding the ball and playing with the back towards the goal.
Dortmund´s answer is a very offensive use of the fullbacks. This is in itself not that different to United with Darmian and Shaw, but they use it to intentionally overload one wing to stretch the opposing defense and disrupt their organisation. Once that is accomplished there are multiple ways to create chances: a cross or through pass to Aubameyang inside the box, who is very good in finding goal scoring positions very quickly, hoping for Kagawa to use his strength in crowded places to slip through the cracks, a lay up to the edge of the box where the extremely strong shooters Reus and Mkhitaryan wait or a simple flank change to the other fullback, who is now mostly unguarded and can send the ball right into the center of the box with a single touch.
Now, what are United´s options? Well, there are not many. The problem lies in the above mentioned system. While it is very stable, organized and gives a lot of control, it is also a double edged sword because it is very rigid. This makes it rather predictable and thus easier to defend. It puts an even higher emphasis on the indiviual skill of the offensive players, because they often face tougher situations as result of the opposing defense managing to prepare better.
To put it simply, United right now appears to be a team which is hard to beat, but has at the same time a hard time scoring goals / winning without massive effort. An higher emphasis on set pieces could help them to score the crucial 1:0, which naturally draws the opposing team out of their really defensive states (worked wonders for Dortmund in 2013/2014, who also had a hard time vs. very defensive opponents). That or they could hope for one of the offensive players really hitting top form and managing to score by flashes of brilliance (see Martial´s goal or Depay´s perfomance vs. Brügge). Given the rather short list of players with a big goal threat, the chances for that happening are not the best, though.
great postIf I would have to describe United´s current theme in one word it would be "composure": composure on the ball and in terms of organisation. It is hard to catch them on the counter or disorganized. The whole setup is very stable, which can be seen the most in the midfield. Van Gaal clearly prefers a pair of more defensivily minded central midfielder, basically playing with two anchor players, which helps their back line a lot and irons it out. It works very well to isolate the opposing striker.
Now, what are United´s options? Well, there are not many. The problem lies in the above mentioned system. While it is very stable, organized and gives a lot of control, it is also a double edged sword because it is very rigid. This makes it rather predictable and thus easier to defend. It puts an even higher emphasis on the indiviual skill of the offensive players, because they often face tougher situations as result of the opposing defense managing to prepare better.
To put it simply, United right now appears to be a team which is hard to beat, but has at the same time a hard time scoring goals / winning without massive effort. An higher emphasis on set pieces could help them to score the crucial 1:0, which naturally draws the opposing team out of their really defensive states (worked wonders for Dortmund in 2013/2014, who also had a hard time vs. very defensive opponents). That or they could hope for one of the offensive players really hitting top form and managing to score by flashes of brilliance (see Martial´s goal or Depay´s perfomance vs. Brügge). Given the rather short list of players with a big goal threat, the chances for that happening are not the best, though.
Hopefully that will be LVG's #GGMU 2.0 to be launched after Xmas when we traditionally start to fire on all cylinders.Cracking post. The way we're set up, we struggle when we go a goal behind. In fact we don't seem to create many chances, full stop. United had one shot on target from open play against Liverpool. Control's great but it shouldn't be at the detriment of creating chances or taking risks. We plod along, Barca and Bayern clearly don't. There's a real purpose to their possession... To fashion chances. Our philosophy is making sure the opposition doesn't create chances against us.
