"Man United fans need to re-educate themselves ”- Rio Ferdinand

UnofficialDevil

Anti Scottish and Preoccupied with Donkeys.
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
19,168
Location
I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.
I don't think we played in our PL way when we won the CL in 2008. In fact a reason why we improved in Europe was because Ferguson took a more measured approach.
Yeah but in no way where we playing this retain possession slow tempo side passing work ball into box football either. We never did with SAF. And if it wasnt for us being unlucky enough to coincide with one of the greatest teams ever we would probably have another 2 champions cups in our trophy too.

With SAF it was always pacey wings, wether it was 442 451 or 433.
 

prarek

Full Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
8,636
Remember when we all knocked Barcelona for playing keep ball and we said it was boring?

Well it's like that except it is actually mostly boring.
People making fun of Barcelona for being boring were probably deluded or just extremely jealous of them. They were scoring goals for fun for the most part pissing all over the top teams making a fool out of them and winning more trophies than anyone in the process. We play nothing like that Barca team, not yet. They were anything but boring.
 

Green_Red

New Member
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
10,296
I clearly remember Gary Neville stating about Moyes that "the club will change him, he'll have to" when asked whether Moyes would get the chance to change Uniteds style of play to a style Moyes was more noted for.

Why is that its acceptable for LvG to completely change the style of the club?

My guess is when Giggsey takes the reigns we'll be back to flowing pacey you score 1 we'll score two football we all know and love so much.
 

bdecuc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
901
Location
Ireland
I enjoy our possession football. Sure we have to improve in the final third. At the moment because we're still adapting it seems a bit like possession for the sake of it. But I'm confident we'll become more incisive and effective in time.

I don't think pining after what went before is useful. We played cavalier football at times under Fergie but then for the most part had the best players in our teams and winning lots of trophies makes everything rosy. LVG's approach reflects football as it is today and I for one enjoy it.

Ferdinand is right that alot has changed. Actually alot has improved in the last year or so.
 

Getsme

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
11,244
I clearly remember Gary Neville stating about Moyes that "the club will change him, he'll have to" when asked whether Moyes would get the chance to change Uniteds style of play to a style Moyes was more noted for.

Why is that its acceptable for LvG to completely change the style of the club?

My guess is when Giggsey takes the reigns we'll be back to flowing pacey you score 1 we'll score two football we all know and love so much.
Because Gary Neviile has feck all to do with the club and was merely voicing his opinion.
 

Kag

Full Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
18,884
Location
United Kingdom
I clearly remember Gary Neville stating about Moyes that "the club will change him, he'll have to" when asked whether Moyes would get the chance to change Uniteds style of play to a style Moyes was more noted for.

Why is that its acceptable for LvG to completely change the style of the club?

My guess is when Giggsey takes the reigns we'll be back to flowing pacey you score 1 we'll score two football we all know and love so much.
And that was by a considerable distance the most stupid thing Gary Neville has ever said at Sky Sports.

Following said advice (or trying to) crippled Moyes, and it would do the same to Van Gaal. The fact that the latter is doing this job in his own way is evidence of his character and experience.

Just because Giggs can get the job and state: "right lads, let's attack 'em," doesn't mean that he understands how to set up a team to attack successfully and win games as a result.

It's just words. Cheap talk.
 

Gentleman Jim

It's absolutely amazing! Perfect even.
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
Salford
Supports
city
People making fun of Barcelona for being boring were probably deluded or just extremely jealous of them. They were scoring goals for fun for the most part pissing all over the top teams making a fool out of them and winning more trophies than anyone in the process. We play nothing like that Barca team, not yet. They were anything but boring.
They were only boring to people with low attention spans.
Dominating possession, unerring short passing in all directions, quick retrieval of lost possessions and many one-sided games don't make for good viewing when your idea of football is pace, athleticism and high risk-high reward shootouts but that only takes you so far when up against dominant, possession-based opponents.
What is better, more entertainment or more honours? Up to the individual to decide for themselves.
 

Tincanalley

Turns player names into a crappy conversation
Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
10,366
Location
Ireland
And that was by a considerable distance the most stupid thing Gary Neville has ever said at Sky Sports.

Following said advice (or trying to) crippled Moyes, and it would do the same to Van Gaal. The fact that the latter is doing this job in his own way is evidence of his character and experience.

Just because Giggs can get the job and state: "right lads, let's attack 'em," doesn't mean that he understands how to set up a team to attack successfully and win games as a result.

It's just words. Cheap talk.
I agree @Kag ... As for Ferdinand, I see him following United closely on Twitter. I think you have to put his words in the right context as a dedicated supporter as well as a United great as a player. The article is written up by Hytner as if it was a criticism of the new approach. But he says "United will be better equipped for success in the Champions League this season, because of their slower, more patient approach"... different does not equate with bad. I get the sense that the opinions offered by Rio were more measured and balanced than the clickbait type spin put on them.
 

DomesticTadpole

Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
102,066
Location
Barrow In Furness
Yeah but in no way where we playing this retain possession slow tempo side passing work ball into box football either. We never did with SAF. And if it wasnt for us being unlucky enough to coincide with one of the greatest teams ever we would probably have another 2 champions cups in our trophy too.

With SAF it was always pacey wings, wether it was 442 451 or 433.
Are traditional wingers a dying breed now? Yes there are lots of pacey players about, but it doesn't mean they can play as wingers in the United style. It's no good being fast if you can't run with the ball or put the ball into the area.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,752
Location
France
I clearly remember Gary Neville stating about Moyes that "the club will change him, he'll have to" when asked whether Moyes would get the chance to change Uniteds style of play to a style Moyes was more noted for.

Why is that its acceptable for LvG to completely change the style of the club?

My guess is when Giggsey takes the reigns we'll be back to flowing pacey you score 1 we'll score two football we all know and love so much.
Because United signed a coach with a clear philosophy, you don't sign LVG and tell him to change what he did his all career.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
16,596
Location
Flagg
This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.

But nah, just ignore all that to create some weird bullshit argument to justify our inability to try and score goals...what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity? I mean if it is about us "catching up" with everyone else, how come we're the only team that does it? What are we modernising from exactly?

It just sounds like people trying to justify why we're so boring by creating a non existent scenario where it is necessary for us to be. It just isn't. If it brings success enough people willl tolerate it but if it doesn't then it offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,752
Location
France
what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity?
Bayern with Van gaal and PSG with Ancelotti. Both were saved by Robben, Ibrahimovic and Ribery.
 

Getsme

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
11,244
Don't understand why we can't have both anyway. It will cone good eventually, if you watch a game from last season you can see the vast improvement in our play, the road is long but we had to start sometime.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
96,062
Location
india
This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.

But nah, just ignore all that to create some weird bullshit argument to justify our inability to try and score goals...what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity? I mean if it is about us "catching up" with everyone else, how come we're the only team that does it? What are we modernising from exactly?

It just sounds like people trying to justify why we're so boring by creating a non existent scenario where it is necessary for us to be. It just isn't. If it brings success enough people willl tolerate it but if it doesn't then it offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
City, Barcelona and Bayern all play possession football. Juve as well if I'm not mistaken.

They certainly play a lot more like today's United than one's of the past.

They have more penetration and quality in attack, of course, but in terms of style we are moving in that direction.
 

FCBarca

Mes que un Rag
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
14,246
Location
La Côte, Suisse
Supports
Peace
Remember when we all knocked Barcelona for playing keep ball and we said it was boring?

Well it's like that except it is actually mostly boring.
The differences are many IMHO, not the least of which is end product. Barcelona routinely faced bunkers so it could appear that they were merely recycling possession but Van Gaal is doing this without facing parked buses
 

Trizy

New Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Messages
12,009
Possession football and waiting for a chance is great when you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi otherwise it's boring as feck. Take Bayern for example, most exciting team in the world during the CL winning season, then Pep took over and killed it.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,752
Location
France
Possession football and waiting for a chance is great when you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi otherwise it's boring as feck. Take Bayern for example, most exciting team in the world during the CL winning season, then Pep took over and killed it.
If you don't watch football, that's a fair assessment.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
96,062
Location
india
The differences are many IMHO, not the least of which is end product. Barcelona routinely faced bunkers so it could appear that they were merely recycling possession but Van Gaal is doing this without facing parked buses
We do faced parked buses. Liverpool did that in the first half yesterday as did Newcastle. Away from home, we don't.
 

jetlee

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
441
I don't know what good it serves to the club that ex-players are coming out of the woods voicing their concerns about our dying values. It just puts more unnecessary pressure on the team and the manager.
Yeah I know we all have concerns but them voicing theirs at every opportunity is totally counter-productive. The club has enough attacks against them as it is, we don't need GNev, Rio and the likes to join in.
Yeah our style has changed deal with it. The Fergie nostalgia is ridiculous, we have to move on, and we have to take risks. No one knows whether it comes off eventually but we have to try because going for the mini-Fergie (Moyes) was a total disaster.
 

jetlee

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
441
And criticising Blind at CB after these first few games? Come on Rio, believe your own eyes and not your perceptions.
 

Adisa

likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
50,577
Location
Birmingham
A manager is now not allowed to change the play style. What's the point employing one then?
 

Gentleman Jim

It's absolutely amazing! Perfect even.
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
Salford
Supports
city
This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.t
How can you be sure that you would have won 3/5?
Barca took out teams like Bayern and Mourinho's Real on their way to those 2 finals both of whom would have been at least equal with United with the bookies had those finals been played.
As for rankings...Wales>England?
 

Stretch

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
10,225
Location
Is he normal?
This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.

But nah, just ignore all that to create some weird bullshit argument to justify our inability to try and score goals...what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity? I mean if it is about us "catching up" with everyone else, how come we're the only team that does it? What are we modernising from exactly?

It just sounds like people trying to justify why we're so boring by creating a non existent scenario where it is necessary for us to be. It just isn't. If it brings success enough people willl tolerate it but if it doesn't then it offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
I could be wrong but I seem to recall us playing a very cautious style in Europe. In fact, our success in Europe came from us playing a more conservative style. We defended well and played a counter attacking game mainly. There was nothing gung ho about it. The difference with our play now is that instead of giving the other team the ball we're the ones with the ball most of the time now and thus we don't have the counter attacking component.
 

RedStarUnited

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
8,196
I could be wrong but I seem to recall us playing a very cautious style in Europe. In fact, our success in Europe came from us playing a more conservative style. We defended well and played a counter attacking game mainly. There was nothing gung ho about it. The difference with our play now is that instead of giving the other team the ball we're the ones with the ball most of the time now and thus we don't have the counter attacking component.
Was coming to say this! We only started to succeed in Europe when Fergie decided to take a cautious approach.

Possession football and waiting for a chance is great when you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi otherwise it's boring as feck. Take Bayern for example, most exciting team in the world during the CL winning season, then Pep took over and killed it.
Its forgotten now but Barcelona and Spain especially got a lot of abuse for their football style.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
69,062
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
The differences are many IMHO, not the least of which is end product. Barcelona routinely faced bunkers so it could appear that they were merely recycling possession but Van Gaal is doing this without facing parked buses
Absolute nonsense. Virtually every team that isn't Top 6, and even some top 6 sides, park the bus against us. It's why we have trouble breaking them down.

It's also why we have a great record against the top 6. Because it works so well against teams that try to actually play football.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,644
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
This European argument is so dumb. We were so shite in Europe prior to Van Gaal, that we used to do mediocre things like winning the Champions LEague, and would have wonn it three times in five years if Barcelona didn't happen to be around. We consistently reached the later stages and were ranked as the top team in Europe by UEFA due to our consistently good form in Europe.

But nah, just ignore all that to create some weird bullshit argument to justify our inability to try and score goals...what decent European side plays the way we do now, out of curiosity? I mean if it is about us "catching up" with everyone else, how come we're the only team that does it? What are we modernising from exactly?

It just sounds like people trying to justify why we're so boring by creating a non existent scenario where it is necessary for us to be. It just isn't. If it brings success enough people willl tolerate it but if it doesn't then it offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
Top 4 Teams in last year's CL in terms of possession were: Barca > Bayern > Real > Juventus. Notice a trend? Dortmund were the go to team for fast paced direct football for quite a while, their squad is still almost the same that was build around that style. Guess how much possession they average this season: 58% - 3% more than United. [Squawka]
If you want to be successful over a long period you need to be able to control games and have the tools to keep up circulation in dangerous areas, at least that's what the past few seasons seem to sugggest.
Bayern and Barcelona, two of the top three teams in the Europe right now, play football rather similar to van Gaal. You might argue that he laid the foundation for Bayern's style during his time there.
The huge difference in contrast to United's previous style is precisely the reason why people should be more patient towards van Gaal. He's laying the foundation of a true European top team again, by teaching the players how to control a game. Penetration comes next, but you have to take one step after the other.
 

Viral United

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
1,713
Location
India
I hate the way we play now, but also hated the way we play post 2009.
The thing is at-least we know where we heading, and I would still give LvG some time to make it right.

I think fans should get over with counter attacking football. Our current style is totally different than that.

I also do feel this is more European style of play then PL- English style and might do wonders in CL.
 

Minimalist

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
15,091
United 2006/07 was the last time Ferguson had United playing relentless attacking football. After getting put out by Milan, Ferguson changed to a much more conversative approach which (along with Ronaldos free reign) paid dividends the next two years.

The United Way in terms of consistent attacking play over the course of a season hasn't existed since 2007.

But don't let reality spoil the dreams in your head.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
17,276
Possession football and waiting for a chance is great when you have Xavi, Iniesta and Messi otherwise it's boring as feck. Take Bayern for example, most exciting team in the world during the CL winning season, then Pep took over and killed it.
Bayern were a possession team that season though when they won the treble. It was only vs Barcelona that they played on the counter.

People seem to think Bayern were a counter attacking that season when they weren't. They were capable of playing on the counter, but they had the 2nd highest possession average from Europe's top 5 leagues that season IIRC.
 

Sphaero

Struggling to explain his genius to the hoi polloi
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
4,620
Location
Potsdam, Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
Top 4 Teams in last year's CL in terms of possession were: Barca > Bayern > Real > Juventus. Notice a trend? Dortmund were the go to team for fast paced direct football for quite a while, their squad is still almost the same that was build around that style. Guess how much possession they average this season: 58% - 3% more than United. [Squawka]
If you want to be successful over a long period you need to be able to control games and have the tools to keep up circulation in dangerous areas, at least that's what the past few seasons seem to sugggest.
Bayern and Barcelona, two of the top three teams in the Europe right now, play football rather similar to van Gaal. You might argue that he laid the foundation for Bayern's style during his time there.
The huge difference in contrast to United's previous style is precisely the reason why people should be more patient towards van Gaal. He's laying the foundation of a true European top team again, by teaching the players how to control a game. Penetration comes next, but you have to take one step after the other.
No they don´t. Just because all these teams use dominance by possession does not make them similar in style. That is like saying every counter attacking side was similar to Klopp´s Dortmund, which is just as untrue. There are vital differences to the systems of Bayern, Barcelona or Dortmund.

This starts with the focus of the systems. If I would have to describe United´s current theme in one word it would be "composure": composure on the ball and in terms of organisation. It is hard to catch them on the counter or disorganized. The whole setup is very stable, which can be seen the most in the midfield. Van Gaal clearly prefers a pair of more defensivily minded central midfielder, basically playing with two anchor players, which helps their back line a lot and irons it out. It works very well to isolate the opposing striker. This is a stark difference to the other mentioned teams, who all play with one defensive minded player in front of the defense line, who is supposed to stabilize and balance the formation. This frees up an additional player for the more advanced (in terms of positioning) creative role in the center. Guardiola even "sacrifices" a defender from time to time to get a number advantage in that area.

Like United every possession orientated team faces the main challenge of cracking heavy deep lying defenses. These parked buses are not created only out of a feeling of inferiority in terms of playing strength but are also a direct result of the system. If one setup is supposed to get as much time as possible on the ball, the other will normally not chase the ball around all the time, but rather sit deep, limit the space in the final third as much as possible and hope for a chance on the counter.

Each of the mentioned teams use different tools to break these defenses:

Barcelona has still a huge focus on passing strength, especially accuracy. They circulate the ball nearly perfectly, while waiting for an opportunity to get the ball to their front three, who are all extremely strong dribblers, who either score by themselves or bind defenders to create space for the other two.

Bayern has also a high emphasis on passing, but their even bigger focus lies on positioning. The reason why Guardiola is so pendantic about that, is that it makes them the strongest team when it comes to playing between the opposing lines. They use their fast wingers, who function more like inward forwards and cut into the box from the side, to wreak havoc there, they have with Müller an extremely intelligent player who is a pain to defend and has a rather unique eye for space and with Lewandowski arguably the strongest striker in the world when it comes to shielding the ball and playing with the back towards the goal.

Dortmund´s answer is a very offensive use of the fullbacks. This is in itself not that different to United with Darmian and Shaw, but they use it to intentionally overload one wing to stretch the opposing defense and disrupt their organisation. Once that is accomplished there are multiple ways to create chances: a cross or through pass to Aubameyang inside the box, who is very good in finding goal scoring positions very quickly, hoping for Kagawa to use his strength in crowded places to slip through the cracks, a lay up to the edge of the box where the extremely strong shooters Reus and Mkhitaryan wait or a simple flank change to the other fullback, who is now mostly unguarded and can send the ball right into the center of the box with a single touch.

Now, what are United´s options? Well, there are not many. The problem lies in the above mentioned system. While it is very stable, organized and gives a lot of control, it is also a double edged sword because it is very rigid. This makes it rather predictable and thus easier to defend. It puts an even higher emphasis on the indiviual skill of the offensive players, because they often face tougher situations as result of the opposing defense managing to prepare better.

To put it simply, United right now appears to be a team which is hard to beat, but has at the same time a hard time scoring goals / winning without massive effort. An higher emphasis on set pieces could help them to score the crucial 1:0, which naturally draws the opposing team out of their really defensive states (worked wonders for Dortmund in 2013/2014, who also had a hard time vs. very defensive opponents). That or they could hope for one of the offensive players really hitting top form and managing to score by flashes of brilliance (see Martial´s goal or Depay´s perfomance vs. Brügge). Given the rather short list of players with a big goal threat, the chances for that happening are not the best, though.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,752
Location
France
@Sphaero

That's a great post, I would add that all the teams you mentioned press differently, United is the team that presses the least among the teams you mentioned and is the team that play the deeper. We should be the more reckless in the pressing phase because we don't have great dribblers or fast attackers, but with Van gaal it won't happen.
 

Spoony

The People's President
Joined
Oct 27, 2001
Messages
63,296
Location
Leve Palestina.
No they don´t. Just because all these teams use dominance by possession does not make them similar in style. That is like saying every counter attacking side was similar to Klopp´s Dortmund, which is just as untrue. There are vital differences to the systems of Bayern, Barcelona or Dortmund.

This starts with the focus of the systems. If I would have to describe United´s current theme in one word it would be "composure": composure on the ball and in terms of organisation. It is hard to catch them on the counter or disorganized. The whole setup is very stable, which can be seen the most in the midfield. Van Gaal clearly prefers a pair of more defensivily minded central midfielder, basically playing with two anchor players, which helps their back line a lot and irons it out. It works very well to isolate the opposing striker. This is a stark difference to the other mentioned teams, who all play with one defensive minded player in front of the defense line, who is supposed to stabilize and balance the formation. This frees up an additional player for the more advanced (in terms of positioning) creative role in the center. Guardiola even "sacrifices" a defender from time to time to get a number advantage in that area.

Like United every possession orientated team faces the main challenge of cracking heavy deep lying defenses. These parked buses are not created only out of a feeling of inferiority in terms of playing strength but are also a direct result of the system. If one setup is supposed to get as much time as possible on the ball, the other will normally not chase the ball around all the time, but rather sit deep, limit the space in the final third as much as possible and hope for a chance on the counter.

Each of the mentioned teams use different tools to break these defenses:

Barcelona has still a huge focus on passing strength, especially accuracy. They circulate the ball nearly perfectly, while waiting for an opportunity to get the ball to their front three, who are all extremely strong dribblers, who either score by themselves or bind defenders to create space for the other two.

Bayern has also a high emphasis on passing, but their even bigger focus lies on positioning. The reason why Guardiola is so pendantic about that, is that it makes them the strongest team when it comes to playing between the opposing lines. They use their fast wingers, who function more like inward forwards and cut into the box from the side, to wreak havoc there, they have with Müller an extremely intelligent player who is a pain to defend and has a rather unique eye for space and with Lewandowski arguably the strongest striker in the world when it comes to shielding the ball and playing with the back towards the goal.

Dortmund´s answer is a very offensive use of the fullbacks. This is in itself not that different to United with Darmian and Shaw, but they use it to intentionally overload one wing to stretch the opposing defense and disrupt their organisation. Once that is accomplished there are multiple ways to create chances: a cross or through pass to Aubameyang inside the box, who is very good in finding goal scoring positions very quickly, hoping for Kagawa to use his strength in crowded places to slip through the cracks, a lay up to the edge of the box where the extremely strong shooters Reus and Mkhitaryan wait or a simple flank change to the other fullback, who is now mostly unguarded and can send the ball right into the center of the box with a single touch.

Now, what are United´s options? Well, there are not many. The problem lies in the above mentioned system. While it is very stable, organized and gives a lot of control, it is also a double edged sword because it is very rigid. This makes it rather predictable and thus easier to defend. It puts an even higher emphasis on the indiviual skill of the offensive players, because they often face tougher situations as result of the opposing defense managing to prepare better.

To put it simply, United right now appears to be a team which is hard to beat, but has at the same time a hard time scoring goals / winning without massive effort. An higher emphasis on set pieces could help them to score the crucial 1:0, which naturally draws the opposing team out of their really defensive states (worked wonders for Dortmund in 2013/2014, who also had a hard time vs. very defensive opponents). That or they could hope for one of the offensive players really hitting top form and managing to score by flashes of brilliance (see Martial´s goal or Depay´s perfomance vs. Brügge). Given the rather short list of players with a big goal threat, the chances for that happening are not the best, though.
Cracking post. The way we're set up, we struggle when we go a goal behind. In fact we don't seem to create many chances, full stop - United had one shot on target from open play against Liverpool. Control's great but it shouldn't be at the detriment of creating chances or taking risks. We plod along, Barca and Bayern clearly don't. There's a real purpose to their possession... To fashion chances. Our philosophy is making sure the opposition doesn't create chances against us.
 
Last edited:

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,644
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
@Sphaero van Gaal just took over a team a team that had been playing a completely different style, he basically had to start from scratch. Obviously his team is looking a lot less refined than team like Barca or Bayern who have been playing and perfecting possession football for many years now. His attacking personal also isn't the best, so to me it seems natural that he seems to be trying to work his way from defense to attack, by working on the basic principles of possession football and a solid defense first and then go from there and work on the attack and penetration.
And because of that I think it's too impatient to keep criticizing him already.
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
32,841
Location
London
If I would have to describe United´s current theme in one word it would be "composure": composure on the ball and in terms of organisation. It is hard to catch them on the counter or disorganized. The whole setup is very stable, which can be seen the most in the midfield. Van Gaal clearly prefers a pair of more defensivily minded central midfielder, basically playing with two anchor players, which helps their back line a lot and irons it out. It works very well to isolate the opposing striker.

Now, what are United´s options? Well, there are not many. The problem lies in the above mentioned system. While it is very stable, organized and gives a lot of control, it is also a double edged sword because it is very rigid. This makes it rather predictable and thus easier to defend. It puts an even higher emphasis on the indiviual skill of the offensive players, because they often face tougher situations as result of the opposing defense managing to prepare better.

To put it simply, United right now appears to be a team which is hard to beat, but has at the same time a hard time scoring goals / winning without massive effort. An higher emphasis on set pieces could help them to score the crucial 1:0, which naturally draws the opposing team out of their really defensive states (worked wonders for Dortmund in 2013/2014, who also had a hard time vs. very defensive opponents). That or they could hope for one of the offensive players really hitting top form and managing to score by flashes of brilliance (see Martial´s goal or Depay´s perfomance vs. Brügge). Given the rather short list of players with a big goal threat, the chances for that happening are not the best, though.
great post

so we have this to look forward to all of this season? Re-Education indeed!
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
32,841
Location
London
Cracking post. The way we're set up, we struggle when we go a goal behind. In fact we don't seem to create many chances, full stop. United had one shot on target from open play against Liverpool. Control's great but it shouldn't be at the detriment of creating chances or taking risks. We plod along, Barca and Bayern clearly don't. There's a real purpose to their possession... To fashion chances. Our philosophy is making sure the opposition doesn't create chances against us.
Hopefully that will be LVG's #GGMU 2.0 to be launched after Xmas when we traditionally start to fire on all cylinders.

If we can stay in touch with City, given the total newness of the squad and philosophy, I would not mind that for now. Right now, we just need lots of victories to allow for positive team bonding and get some momentum going.
 

Theonas

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
4,917
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
@Sphaero I can't disagree with your points there about the differences in style but as the bloke before me points out, We are in pretty much the second year of building this style. We're really just coming to terms with what's required, especially the younger and English based players. I am not saying they were idiots before but it's fair to say we never played like that with so much emphasis on movement and positioning. Barcelona you can argue have been going through that process for 20 years since Cruyff pretty much, Van Gaal and Pep all added a little bit more to the version we have now. Bayern are in their 7 or 8th year with a basis of German players that has also been enduring some intensive tactical coaching over the past decade. The difference between us and them comes down to how fast and how natural we apply our style, it is ridiculous to expect us to do it with the same speed as those sides after such a short time which is why they're ahead of us but we had to start somewhere.