Managerial burnout: are we witnessing it with Pep and Klopp?

[knut]

I definitely think Klopp and Guardiola’s intensity is draining on their players and there’s a limited period of time that they can maintain that intensity themselves in the same environment, but I’m not sure this is the limit.

I think one of the things that helped Sir Alex is there was a fairly constant change in the leaders in the team. Robson, Cantona, Ince, Schmeichel, Keane, Stam, Beckham, Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo, Vidic. If you think about the bust-ups with Ince, Stam, Beckham or Rooney, the dramatic ups and downs with Cantona…Sir Alex not only brought in more dominant leaders into the team in general, but he refreshed them at a higher rate and continually reasserted his dominance against them.

While that king of thing can can be draining in itself, it does prevent things from getting stale. It was a challenge for the manager.

For someone like Guardiola, it seems like he’s always progressing towards some kind of footballing ideal, and one consequence of that is a tendency towards sameness. He doesn’t seem to want a dominant personality to rock the boat. That uniformity clearly allows them to reach a high footballing peak, but I reckon it does create more of a risk for burnout. Haaland is really the only challenge he’s had, someone who’s desperate to win and plays in a completely different style. I think he probably needs more than that to reenergise himself.

I think Klopp has just reached the end of a cycle and doesn’t have the funds to refresh things. He really needs big characters with high energy to act as his lieutenants in the pitch and to feed off their energy too, but every game he looks out there and it’s just energy sapping on both sides. It might be that this really is just his limit but the environment is far from ideal too.

All managers' great times at clubs seem to be limited. For some managers (who may be more taxing on their environements) the cycle is short (3 years for Conte or Mourinho), for others, it's longer (Simeone? Klopp?). I agree very strongly with the above. Getting in new leaders is important and refreshing, even when things are going well, is probably what defines the ability to sustain success. I would also add, that renewing the coaching set-up may be beneficial, as we saw with SAF.

I don't think a City resurgence later in the season is out of the question though. They were pretty flat in the first third of the 20-21 season too but managed to step up. Liverpool too have had periods of time where things haven't worked out but have then been able to shake it off and come back. However, it seems Liverpool are a far ways off that at the moment, while City only seem to need comparatively less change to stay relevant.

As a side note: that is part of what is so extremely impressive with SAF: he refreshed the team again and again, while keeping on top of things.

 

[Abraxas]

It is inevitable at some stage. I think the landscape is very different from when Fergie did it. Also, Fergie is cut from a different cloth and from a different generation himself.

Whether they're burnt out or just struggling with the specifics of their current situation and looking for new answers I don't know. It's probably too early to say. Even the best can sometimes hit an obstacle, you need time to see if it is a theme or not. I certainly wouldn't be panicking if I was in charge of their clubs.

But it's certainly possible at least one of them is going to struggle to hit previous heights, more likely Klopp as that's a more significant rebuild. In City's case you can say Arsenal have been truly exceptional.

 

[Giggsy13]

if city lose out on the title they’ll blow their load on Bellingham, Gvardiol and possibly a fullback to back Pep. This is what they’ve always done.

Liverpool desperately need reinforcements but like us need new owners to keep up with city and Newcastle. Klopp will be around until that time, they would be mad to sack their best manager of the last 30 years.

 

[André Dominguez]

The day they become what Mourinho is today will arrive. It arrives for every top manager. And with the absurd ammount of money involved in football I'm pretty sure sports science will bring inovations at a higher Pace.

 

[JustKatie]

It just for me makes me take another step back in awe of Sir Alex. he must've reinvented his team about five or six times over the years and never lost the passion to do so.
That's why for me Sir Alex is the best manager of all time over these limited time managers.
(Yes yes, we had funds to always buy the best British talent first yadda yadda)

 

[padr81]

Despite his struggles Pep is still 2nd in the league and whilst out of our hands bang in the middle of a title race. Klopp is 10th, their situations aren't the same but... that said I think both clubs have worn each other down and softened each other up. Nothing does last forever and both are far from their peak. In Cities case we've shown this form before albeit to begin a season (not over the holidays) and despite being 13th after 9 games went on to win the league. Whilst its worrying I'm confident we'll put it right (maybe too late for the PL). Pep won't be sacked nor does he not see out his contracts so he's here till 2025.

The question is Klopp, he won't be sacked but he may walk simply because its gotten so bad.

 

[kafta]

It just make Sir Alex look even better. Imagine him saying 'i dont care' after a loss.

 

[Brwned]

All managers' great times at clubs seem to be limited. For some managers (who may be more taxing on their environements) the cycle is short (3 years for Conte or Mourinho), for others, it's longer (Simeone? Klopp?). I agree very strongly with the above. Getting in new leaders is important and refreshing, even when things are going well, is probably what defines the ability to sustain success. I would also add, that renewing the coaching set-up may be beneficial, as we saw with SAF.

I don't think a City resurgence later in the season is out of the question though. They were pretty flat in the first third of the 20-21 season too but managed to step up. Liverpool too have had periods of time where things haven't worked out but have then been able to shake it off and come back. However, it seems Liverpool are a far ways off that at the moment, while City only seem to need comparatively less change to stay relevant.

As a side note: that is part of what is so extremely impressive with SAF: he refreshed the team again and again, while keeping on top of things.

Yeah I definitely wouldn’t rule out City going on a relentless winning run and grabbing the title from here. They’ve looked at the end of their cycle before and then went back to being a juggernaut.

 

[padr81]

Yeah I definitely wouldn’t rule out City going on a relentless winning run and grabbing the title from here. They’ve looked at the end of their cycle before and then went back to being a juggernaut.

We haven't won 4 games in a row yet this season, no way we're picking up 30/30 or whatever. We might put together a couple of 5-7 game runs to grind it out by the skin of our teeth and with points somewhere in the low to mid 80's.

 

[Sayros]

I still think City has a lot of mileage left in their winning run. However, it's undeniable that a guy like Pep is prone to burning out, he gets far too crazy and emotionally involved that I sometimes wonder if the guy's heart isn't going to give out, and I mean that literally, not as a figure of speech.
They've won 4 of the last 5, it's hard to stay driven and motivated, hearing the same voice over and over again, you can easily start tuning it out. At that point, a change of manager is for the best but I just don't see that happening for another couple of seasons under Pep, and it would take some massive failures in the CL to possibly get there or speed up that process.

Klopp on the other hand, it's pretty baffling how poor they've been this season, and it's only compounded by how much United/Arsenal have improved under Ten Hag/Arteta that now they find themselves way outside looking in. The rivals they used to dwarf in points like Arsenal and United are now way ahead of them and they can't seem to get out of the hole they've dug themselves in.

But this is honestly only a good thing for the Premier League as a whole, it makes it far more exciting and I'd personally love nothing more than to see a team not named City or Liverpool finishing at the top.

 

[Fortitude]

I think you're interpreting too much into this. Yes, fresh blood and changing things up a little definitely helps reigniting the whole thing once in a while but I think this comes naturally, even if you don't bring in new players. If Liverpool or City underperform for a season or so, this will be enough to get players out of their comfort zone. If you have found a manager like Klopp or Guardiola, I believe you should hold onto him for as long as possible. Dortmund e. g. wanted to keep Klopp despite the atrocious season he had since the team played fundamentally better in the end again. They probably would have a few more Bundesligas to their belt had he stayed.

On top of that there's the person. Coaches these days have probaby ~14 hour work days. Klopp himself once asked a journalist if he ever thought about coaches never missing due to illness or something similar. They simply aren't allowed to be absent. So it makes sense that they need a pause every once in a while.

I think there's a stark unintentional contrast between this season and last for both sides/managers across the board and both managers have that fed up, bedraggled look to them that is all too familiar. The latter doesn't mean anything in and of itself, but when you see the agitation and frustration not just coarsing through the managers but also their teams, you start to wonder - I think we can cite practically any of the teams and managers in the OP and see practically the same thing happening to them.

It's only halfway through the season, so could be a premature assessment, but thus far the football is a distance off what it has been for both of them, but moreover the appetite of the teams is markedly different.

And regarding keeping the managers; it's not about either club sacking them; it's whether they themselves are as hungry and enthusiastic as they were and whether it's organically the time for them to seek pastures new if that fire isn't in their bellies anymore.

Both of them are extremely high intensity and that's also part of their appeal - that enthusiasm rubs off on their players and has them go out there and [over]work for the manager, combine that with the football and it was a difficult proposition, one we're not seeing the likes of this season with both teams having vulnerabilities around the intensity of their play on and off the ball.

Whether a bunch of new players fixes things remains to be seen, but overcoming this kind of adversity where collectives are no longer performing is the rarest and would be quite the feather in the cap for either one to turn around.

I think @Brwned makes a good point in the vitality new leaders and mindsets provide. It keeps the process of organic renewal intact and is a means by which a manager can be challenged to grow and revitalise himself. Pep is loathe to any kind of challenge or change to the order he demands and Klopp might be too loyal to a set of players to cycle them out, thus both do run the risk of expediting burnout, not only for themselves, but their stalwarts, too.

Many argued that Fergie himself was stagnating a little towards the end due to not freshening the squad in his trademark manner - no surprise that he called it a day around that time knowing that he was more out than in and wasn't going to go through another of his trademark rebuilding cycles.

Pep's recourse is usually to leave whilst Klopp is a bit of an unknown given he hasn't been at many clubs for his patterns to reveal themselves (even if he has been anchored with this 7-year thing).

We'll see what's what as the season unfolds, but up until now, both are uncharacteristic in their conduct and execution up to this point in time.

 

[SilentWitness]

I think both teams are in transition. With Liverpool it is obvious when you see their midfield and the exit of Mane, decline of VVD and Salah etc. With City it is less obvious but they have let go of key starters/squad players in the past few seasons in Aguero, Fernandinho, Zinchenko, Jesus, Sterling etc. Players like De Bruyne, Gundogan, Walker and Mahrez all in their 30s and will start declining soon if not already. I wouldn't be surprised to see both much better next year.

 

[Zehner]

I think there's a stark unintentional contrast between this season and last for both sides/managers across the board and both managers have that fed up, bedraggled look to them that is all too familiar. The latter doesn't mean anything in and of itself, but when you see the agitation and frustration not just coarsing through the managers but also their teams, you start to wonder - I think we can cite practically any of the teams and managers in the OP and see practically the same thing happening to them.

It's only halfway through the season, so could be a premature assessment, but thus far the football is a distance off what it has been for both of them, but moreover the appetite of the teams is markedly different.

And regarding keeping the managers; it's not about either club sacking them; it's whether they themselves are as hungry and enthusiastic as they were and whether it's organically the time for them to seek pastures new if that fire isn't in their bellies anymore.

Both of them are extremely high intensity and that's also part of their appeal - that enthusiasm rubs off on their players and has them go out there and [over]work for the manager, combine that with the football and it was a difficult proposition, one we're not seeing the likes of this season with both teams having vulnerabilities around the intensity of their play on and off the ball.

Whether a bunch of new players fixes things remains to be seen, but overcoming this kind of adversity where collectives are no longer performing is the rarest and would be quite the feather in the cap for either one to turn around.

I think @Brwned makes a good point in the vitality new leaders and mindsets provide. It keeps the process of organic renewal intact and is a means by which a manager can be challenged to grow and revitalise himself. Pep is loathe to any kind of challenge or change to the order he demands and Klopp might be too loyal to a set of players to cycle them out, thus both do run the risk of expediting burnout, not only for themselves, but their stalwarts, too.

Many argued that Fergie himself was stagnating a little towards the end due to not freshening the squad in his trademark manner - no surprise that he called it a day around that time knowing that he was more out than in and wasn't going to go through another of his trademark rebuilding cycles.

Pep's recourse is usually to leave whilst Klopp is a bit of an unknown given he hasn't been at many clubs for his patterns to reveal themselves (even if he has been anchored with this 7-year thing).

We'll see what's what as the season unfolds, but up until now, both are uncharacteristic in their conduct and execution up to this point in time.

But in the end this is speculation. There are so many possible expanations for their (temporary) decline. Liverpool is clearly in a rebuild and City is quite experimental with integrating Haaland as a striker. So they might be in a "learning and figuring out" phase. And there are so many quotes of players saying that they found it hard to motivate themselves after achieving their goals, maybe even multiple seasons in a row. It gets harder to stay motivated, regardless of the person coaching you. That doesn't mean that the methods or way of the manager have worn out or that the squad doesn't buy into his ideas anymore. Stuff like this is one of the reasons teams and players go through rough patches of form.

 

[Fortitude]

But in the end this is speculation. There are so many possible expanations for their (temporary) decline. Liverpool is clearly in a rebuild and City is quite experimental with integrating Haaland as a striker. So they might be in a "learning and figuring out" phase. And there are so many quotes of players saying that they found it hard to motivate themselves after achieving their goals, maybe even multiple seasons in a row. It gets harder to stay motivated, regardless of the person coaching you. That doesn't mean that the methods or way of the manager have worn out or that the squad doesn't buy into his ideas anymore. Stuff like this is one of the reasons teams and players go through rough patches of form.

Of course it's speculation.. what else would it be? We're halfway through a campaign; it's a question off of observation rather than statement of fact - they look shattered and flat, but that might be temporary.

Pep's M.O. has been to bail and start anew so this is new territory and perhaps it's simply a period of adjustment. Klopp looks exasperated - if performance extrapolates over the season, would it really surprise you if he walked?

Is it form if it's whole teams, by the way?

 

[Oranges038]

The problem is their main players are almost finished and the newer ones aren't up to scratch.

I watched Liverpool the other day, their main players couldn't/wouldn't even press 5 yards. Where as previously there's 3 or 4 of them swarming round the area of possession. Elliott came on and he was running past Salah to press the ball, the rest just almost stood and looked at him do it. They are so open, because they try to keep press, but end up in a half press and get exploited through the gaps that are left open.

City too and this happened with Arsenal under Wenger, the play was one/two touches they were moving the ball so quickly. Nobody could get near them. They are slowing down now and it's now three/four touches, the ball is being moved slower and they are easier to close down because of it.

 

[Jeffthered]

Yes, seems a possibility.. both are pretty committed managers, and after a few seasons probably need a break. I actually think both clubs are probably prepping' for their final season, which may not be too far in the future.

 

[Oldyella]

It just make Sir Alex look even better. Imagine him saying 'i dont care' after a loss.

Having that much fire in the belly even as an old man is crazy really. He constantly reinvented his teams yes, but the desire to win came down from him into those squads.

 

[justsomebloke]

A worthwhile question. I think by this point it's clear that Liverpool is in a kind of trouble that amounts to something more than just a temporary bump in the road, although it's not obvious that it's due to Klopp. With City, I think that's well premature to conclude. They've been too good too consistently, season seen as a whole.

 

[Shakesy]

Last week Tuesday I ate pizza. Two weeks ago I also ate pizza on a Tuesday. Am I in a weekly cycle of eating pizza on Tuesdays?

 

[Zen86]

Building a successful team is one thing, maintaining that level and rebuilding is a completely different ballgame. Pep will be ok though, a blank cheque every summer tends to help.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Unfortunately I think City will be fine with Guardiola who will stay on for a couple of more years it's the ideal place for him:
- Best league in the World
- A club with limitless possibilities and finances
Maybe after he wins the CL (if ever) the motivation will tone down a little bit.

Klopp on the other hand seems to have some issues in rebuilding the squad as Liverpool is not prepared to spend hundreds of millions. He already had a bad season 2 years ago when we finished above them, but they managed to bounce back last year. This season seems worse than 2 years ago and I'm not sure he will be able to bounce back this time. There are also the injuries that seem to come back and haunt him.

 

[Bilbo]

There were a few occasions people would have said the same about Sir Alex

 

[Withnail]

It just make Sir Alex look even better. Imagine him saying 'i dont care' after a loss.

That was such an odd thing to say. You'd have to think the messaging to the team is very different internally but I can't make any sense out of why he'd say it.

 

[LordSpud]

Klopp wont see out his contract and Pep will only leave when they win the CL. Thats basically the state of play for these two.

 

[Red the Bear]

Rebuilding a team is ridiculously difficulty and I don't think k any other person aside from sir Alex has managed to pull it off more than once in this level of play and even then he to seemed to be done in the mid 2000s.

I doubt pep or klopp could pull it off.

 

[Fortitude]

Both of them look exasperated.

 

[Vapor trail]

I think both are requiring signings after the loss of key players. Mane gone has negatively impacted the team. City have lost various players in and around the first team and haven't made adequate replacements.

I think the maximum period to maintain a consistent team is probably 4 seasons after that you need to shuffle the pack where required.

 

[mav_9me]

Different situations. Klopp has history with Dortmund, failing after 7 seasons. Quite possible to see a similar scenario play out.

Pep is different cuz he has never tried to rebuild a team. This would be his first time. Let's see if gives it a go.

 

[Ayoba]

Hope so, and hope they both feck off.

 

[Sandikan]

Pep's just doing some odd things.
What's he trying to prove with the defence? Leaving Dias and Laporte out, letting Cancelo go? Really odd.

 

[Sandikan]

Hope so, and hope they both feck off.

Would be absolutely unreal timing if Ten Hag can keep his first 6months momentum going.

 

[horsechoker]

Bald Heh v Lego Pep to be the next big rivalry

 

[kps88]

Pep's just doing some odd things.
What's he trying to prove with the defence? Leaving Dias and Laporte out, letting Cancelo go? Really odd.

Yep. Feels like there's something going on behind the scenes and he's trying to prove who's boss.

Their transfer dealings have been odd as well. Letting crucial squad players like Jesus and Zinchenko join a rival and now deciding to go into the second half of the season without proper fullbacks.

 

[Someone]

They could both use a year off. Fergie was exceptional in that regard, even in his last year as a manager you could sense the fire in him. Something is off with Pep and Klopp, specially Klopp who looks like he's aged a decade during the past year.

 

[Sandikan]

Pep needs PSG, Juventus, or some middle Eastern league where one team win 9/10 titles and have the richest resources to go to.

 

[Fortitude]

Pep's just doing some odd things.
What's he trying to prove with the defence? Leaving Dias and Laporte out, letting Cancelo go? Really odd.

But don't you think him messing about is a byproduct of what's going on with him and his side?

If he's as drawn out as he is looking, he probably needs to try new things to give himself that pick-me-up, just as much as his team.

 

[matt10000]

SAF only had one philosophy 'WIN'

He wasn't stuck on one way of playing or one set of players just obsessed with winning

 

[acnumber9]

City are great leaders but I’m not sure they’re great at chasing down a lead. They have the look of a team ready to give up on chasing Arsenal.

 

[horsechoker]

Pep needs PSG, Juventus, or some middle Eastern league where one team win 9/10 titles and have the richest resources to go to.

Off to Al Nassr for his greatest challenge yet, making a 40 year old Ronaldo look good

 

[BorisManUtd]

They could both use a year off. Fergie was exceptional in that regard, even in his last year as a manager you could sense the fire in him. Something is off with Pep and Klopp, specially Klopp who looks like he's aged a decade during the past year.

People seem to say that about every manager that is going through rough period. Said it about Moyes at United, Mourinho at United, Potter at Chelsea etc.