Didnt know we overpaid for Casemiro too.
Is there a deal we havent supposedly overpaid on?
Is there a deal we havent supposedly overpaid on?
Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
What I take from this post is that you actually have no clue how a football organisation works. I will tell you why I think this too.
A. Please show me any piece of evidence that Murtough was calling the football shots, apart from "Trust me bro" Murtough was head of football developments from 2016 when he oversaw the womens team. Then he was moved to overhaul the academy and how we bought players, where we signed Mejbri, Fernandez, Garnacho. Just because you work under someone does not mean you agree with their way of working.
If that is the case, why don't managers assistants have the same impact as the managers? Do you think Pep Linders can go manage a team and theyll play 100% exact the way Klopp plays? You do realise everyone has their own ways of working and personalities?
B. Correct, a DoF is to make signings. Do you realise that Antony, Casemiro were already on Untied list before Ten Hag came?
C. Let me explain to you a process in football which you kind of look like have 0 clue. Murtough, Fletcher and Arnold would have interviewed Ten Hag for the job, he would have had a look at the players and said, I need x,y,z to play my way. I have worked with Frenkie, I think he will be a good fit. So what do the club do? They back their man, they want to go get him his man, they done their bit of agreeing a fee, they cannot point a gun to someone and say come.
Overpaying, Ok we overpaid for Antony, I mean doesn't every other football club overpay ? Nunez, Phillips, Enzo, Murdryk? You are good at making statements with actually, 0 evidence. Can you show me any evidence that Casemiro was available cheaper at the start of the window?
Apparently Martinez was cheaper? Go have a look, Arsenal's £40m bid was REJECTED.
So how did Casemiro know at the start of the window he was coming to us? Does he have a magic ball or are you talking bollocks? I know which looks more likely where I’m sat. You can ignore facts all you want, but you’re putting two and two together and getting 84 million.You've literally named one signing out of the 7-8 we've made so far under ETH. Do you also think Weghorst was a Murtough/Fletcher decision too? They must have been scouting him at burnley and werder.
And as I mentioned, the first choice was FDJ. When that failed, we went to our backups - Rabiot & Casemiro. Both of whom I'd imagine the Manager had a say too. If FDJ had signed for us, that would have been 6 signings all with a dutch/ajax connection. What about going for Jurren Timber?
Its so fecking blatantly obvious yet you seem to be arguing otherwise.
Its clear for anyone to see that the Manager holds the most power and decision making despite all this talk about a football structure and what not.
Once again you're just shooting yourself in the foot with ridiculous opinions when the facts point to the contrary.
I don't understand this opinion, whatsoever.
Manchester put in a perfectly acceptable bid for De Jong, which was accepted by Barcelona. They tried to negotiate with the player to move but, it is quite clear, that De Jong was indecisive over, but we were also unwilling to draw a line. What really happened is that Manchester United left the offer there if he decides he wants to move; there is nothing more to it. It seems like some people believe that Murtough/Arnold were constantly calling him every day to see whether he is coming. Sorry, but that isn't what happened; Murtough/Arnold handed this exactly as it should have been handled.
No time was wasted on the signing of De Jong. A lot of people have assumed this due to the timing of Casemiro being signed, but this was mere coincidence. That isn't what really happened. Fred knew about Casemiro joining months before, which just indicates that we were always negotiating with other players whilst, also, trying to sign De Jong. It was never Casemiro or De Jong; we quite clearly wanted to sign both.
Rabiot is not the same situation, at all. He wanted an enormous contract that led to us turning him down; how is that the club's fault? One minute you're complaining about over spending and the next you are criticising for them not giving into Rabiot's demands.
You also complain about buying, but we rarely sign players in January because it is just not a good window. Look how much Chelsea have had to spend to bring players in; they would have likely got them cheaper in the summer, but they wanted them mid-season and paid well over the odds, which is something you clearly don't like. On the other hand, we have made two smart signings that will have very little impact on our spending in the summer, where we will be able to go for our main targets.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ted-richard-arnold-taming-glazers-no-d-heads/
Clearly was second choice to FDJ, as has been reported by multiple journos and if you had been around for the summer, you'd also be aware.
It’s a lovely piece of PR, the highlight being he is an alpha male but not a shouter. I don’t think anyone should read that and regard it as actual work anyone is doing, it’s a PR puff piece just like the one about Murtough in the Times. It’s straight out of the Woodward playbook, when things are going well make sure everyone knows you are the mastermind, when there not it’s nothing to do with you.
Everyone wants to be the person that got Casemiro through the door, no mention of Anthony in there despite him arriving later for a bigger fee. No one wants to own that one yet.
See the thing is, fans dont see this. I have had all sorts of posters saying look at all these clubs spending money in Jan, what not.
We have made 2 very good signings in January to help us this season.
It gives us time to assess our options, do some leg work on summer targets.
Whoever thought we were going to spend money in January is honestly living in a different universe.
“Clearly” when it’s been reported multiple times that Fred knew that Casemiro was coming and Casemiro himself said after the Brentford game that he wants to join.
No d***heads transfer edict
I like him just for that.
We seem to be headed in the right direction. I think people underestimate the amount of damage caused by Woodward and the control that he had, and how it takes time to rectify.
No ones saying the work has been perfect. But instead of appreciating the good work they've done we have moaners in the fanbase that prefer to drive hypberbole and made up narratives.
Let me just say that Casemiro for 60m was a bargain of the season
Fred said he had a chat with Casemiro months before he joined, and told him about our project. It wasn't inferred that he knew he was definitely joining, and the article also states he was surprised when Casemiro actually made the move.
We never even bid for Casemiro until ETH was finally convinced to ditch the FDJ deal.
Did you also forget that we bid for Rabiot BEFORE moving for Case? He was third choice if you think about it.
No denying that Casemiro was sounded out, but thats par for course in the summer window. It doesn't mean we move for every player we express as interest in or vice versa.
My experience comes from following clubs who had DOFs long before us, working directly under various CEOs and having a CEO as relative myself. I didn't know that you have extensive football organization experience from the inside. In that case I bow to your superior knowledge.
All I can say from my experience is
A- CEOs don't and can't handle especially if the company in question is a juggernaut like Manchester United. They rely on trusted men either by giving them the job officially or let them run the show. Its evident that Woodward's trusted man was Murtough. He placed him as DOF above Judge who was also his man. Thus most football blunders done throughout Woodward's time had Murtough's finger in.
B- Last summer we faired better then the rest mostly because ETH seem to have taken over regarding the people he wanted. For the rest it was a shambles. We overpaid, our CEO/DOF went for wild goose chases that lead to nothing (Rabiot and De Jong) instead of settling this via emails and phone (how things usually work) and we even tried to sign a player despite knowing very well that the fan base would go at arms against
C- When a business is at the verge of being sold its common for the top brass to try and market themselves as efficient even to the point of leaking info to the media. I didn't witness a buyout myself but I was involved in a company facing a merger and I saw that happening with my very own eyes.
D- Our arguments & Arnold/Murtough's effort mean jack shit. If the new buyer wants them out and believe me, that would be a popular move for them to do then they'll be at the door. Most owners like to bring in their trusted men (even to the point that the manager himself is effected (with in our case would be a mistake). Take the Glazers as an example who brought Woodward in. Arnold (who is from the University of Bristol just like Woodward) was promoted at the time, Judge was brought in (he is also from the University of Bristol) and Murtough was promoted by Woodward after previously being labelled as his fixer. Sir Jim Ratcliffe did the same with INEOS. His brother was promoted as head of sports. If you ask me, Arnold is a dead man walking, Murtough might get a summer to prove himself and ETH will be safe but he'll have to perform next season.
That's basically it and quite frankly I am not interested into going into a detailed debate on this especially since I believe its a waste of time. As said, If you ask me, Arnold is a dead man walking, Murtough might get a summer to prove himself and ETH will be safe but he'll have to perform next season.
Indeed don't think anybody should deny that last summer was driven by ETH warts and all. But also Murtough did oversee a reconstruction on the scouting team in the period that new manager was appointed, whos to say we weren't relying on ETH's knowledge in the short term in lieu of this new direction.
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Also an apt reply to the nonsense conspiracy theorists of it just being PR.
According to that article Arnold pretty much is perfect, it’s as blatant a narrative as you’ll see anywhere. How much truth is in there I have no idea but it’s obvious PR.
Why would you trust a journalist who makes these articles when you have better sources.
"Trust me bro" > Reliable journalists when it suits the narrative.
When last season the journalists were saying there is issues in the club, they were quick to post the same journalists comments because that helped their narrative too.
This is pointless. You’re ignoring all rhyme or reason because it doesn’t suit your biased opinion. Nobody gets anywhere in life with that attitude, but you do you.
The facts don’t lie, and they spell trouble for you.
The article is reflecting on the positive changes that are made. It's quite refreshing to be fair, because we have absolute twats in our fanbase who won't credit anything remotely good from them.
exactly.
Some people are just going to be consistent miserable wankers and there's a fair few in the United fanbase.
The word 'briefed' belongs next to 'smokescreen' in the garbage bin of transfer chat bollocks.
This is good quote but it does smell like a positive Utd press brief. One word casts doubt on this for me, 'Rabiot' (and his mother), if we were really chasing him as he (and even more so his mother) are known uber d***heads. Overall though I cant have any complaints about Richard Arnold this season.No d***heads transfer edict
I like him just for that.
We seem to be headed in the right direction. I think people underestimate the amount of damage caused by Woodward and the control that he had, and how it takes time to rectify.
You can say the same for every club with a bit of positive coverage, and we've seen no end of similar stuff from Liverpool, City, and many others in recent years.
Ultimately it all comes down to results and actions though, and we seem to be doing ok considering the train wreck of the last 10 years.
Antony also isn't free of negative traits. Seems a bit arrogant and cnuty. E.g. reacts to justified criticism from Bruno by calling him a puta several times, aggressively, in view of cameras and all.
Talk about two forms of extremism.
They haven’t been that great, otherwise we wouldn’t have seen the continuation of transfer f ups.
On the other side they clearly are trying their best to raise the profile of the bad press we have been getting for years.
I for one hope they continue under the new owners as I believe stability is important for now. Last thing we want is a Chelsea situation with a mad turnover of everything. No matter how much good press they continue to get.
But people need to relax with defending the indefinables, like the De Jong saga add the CR7 mismanagement too. However they clearly have been doing some good things, like reshuffling the structure and allow ETH to drop carried over opinions like Scott McTominay being future Man United captain material.
They haven’t been that great, otherwise we wouldn’t have seen the continuation of transfer f ups.
On the other side they clearly are trying their best to raise the profile of the bad press we have been getting for years.
I for one hope they continue under the new owners as I believe stability is important for now. Last thing we want is a Chelsea situation with a mad turnover of everything. No matter how much good press they continue to get.
But people need to relax with defending the indefinables, like the De Jong saga add the CR7 mismanagement too. However they clearly have been doing some good things, like reshuffling the structure and allow ETH to drop carried over opinions like Scott McTominay being future Man United captain material.
thinking about more it i guess thats where a good DOF and manager have to make a call, there is a thin line between madness and genius. The no 'd**kheads' policy would have ruled out Eric Cantona back in the day !
Murtough was only hired because Moyes pointed out to Woodward that post-SAF the club was a shambles backstage. Moyes firing key staff obviously didn’t help, but the lack of structure (academy etc.) went a lot deeper than that.
I’m not sure why people get so worked up about which of the “football people” at the club are driving the transfers. It’s obvious that ETH has played a big part, but that doesn’t explain Cas or Sabitzer. The main thing that’s changed is that we no longer seem to be buying players recommended to Ed Woodward by agents and selling clubs; a process that started with Mata and ended with Ronaldo.
We were trying to sign Rabiot about 5 minutes ago. Arnautovic too.
Cantona was fiery, as is Antony. That doesn't equate to being a d***head. It's a common trait in those who want to win.
What we don't want is players who sow division in the dressing room and concern themselves more with how many 'gram followers they have, then trophies and team success.
Yes. 5 mins ago we did that.
Who is a d***head is subjective and I think that’s his point.
It’s more appropriate to say we only want players who the manager Believes fits into the squad.
I.e. Pep refusing to have Sanchez based on the wages he was requesting.
I have laid out all the facts and backed it up with reputable journalist articles. You have not, yet stubbornly insist you are correct with no substantial evidence to support your claim.
The facts dont lie indeed. So beloware the players we have bought, bid for or been linked with by multiple reputable journalists since ETH got here. Notice how all of them are either Dutch or have connections with Ajax/Bayern. Both clubs that our manager has worked for in the past.
How can you honestly look at the list below and say that our transfer policy isn't run by our Manager
? Or at the very least he holds all the power and decision making.| Player | Nationality | Previous club |
|---|---|---|
| Antony | Brazil | Ajax |
| Casemiro | Brazil | Real Madrid |
| Lisandro Martínez | Argentina | Ajax |
| Tyrell Malacia | Netherlands | Feyenoord |
| Christian Eriksen | Denmark | Brentford |
| Martin Dúbravka | Slovakia | Newcastle United |
| Wout Weghorst | Netherlands | Burnley |
| Frenkie De Jong | Netherlands | Barcelona |
| Jurren Timber | Netherlands | Ajax |
| Adrian Rabiot | France | Juventus |
| Marcel Sabitzer | Austria | Bayern Munich |
| Cody Gakpo | Netherlands | PSV |
Whether its due to Ten Hag or if its Murtough, we are actually going after targets that fit a specific role in our team. Under Woodward we spent so much money on players due to there profile and names rather than addressing the holes in our squad. Even under a tight budget now we are getting decent players in that can fit into Ten Hags team. We are looking more and more like a football club than a business.
I very much agree with you. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that providing our scouting/recruiting network is well aware of these players and how they fit in amongst the squad as this gives logical push back should we not agree on the signings for the best way for the team to move forward.I have laid out all the facts and backed it up with reputable journalist articles. You have not, yet stubbornly insist you are correct with no substantial evidence to support your claim.
The facts dont lie indeed. So beloware the players we have bought, bid for or been linked with by multiple reputable journalists since ETH got here. Notice how all of them are either Dutch or have connections with Ajax/Bayern. Both clubs that our manager has worked for in the past.
How can you honestly look at the list below and say that our transfer policy isn't run by our Manager
Player Nationality Previous club Antony Brazil Ajax Casemiro Brazil Real Madrid Lisandro Martínez Argentina Ajax Tyrell Malacia Netherlands Feyenoord Christian Eriksen Denmark Brentford Martin Dúbravka Slovakia Newcastle United Wout Weghorst Netherlands Burnley Frenkie De Jong Netherlands Barcelona Jurren Timber Netherlands Ajax Adrian Rabiot France Juventus Marcel Sabitzer Austria Bayern Munich Cody Gakpo Netherlands PSV
Out of that list I believe
Martinez
Wout
Timber
Malacia
Gakpo
Get overlooked by our requirement team. So that’s near enough 40% being dependent on the man In charge.
It’s not a good look if the large majority is weighted towards the manager. But this is window 1/2. It’s more alarming if it continues.
I don't think that's the case at all.
D***heads clearly means troublemakers in this context. Shouting at each other on the pitch (which was the original point) isn't making trouble.
Was wondering where you were
its a worry in some regards because if Ten Hag is making the signings based on just his knowledge and no other data then its a sign our scouting department is truly lacking. The summer i feel was fully Ten Hag. This january feels like there was a proper process, scouting data that then got narrowed down to meet the requirements that Ten Hag needs. The summer will be interesting to watch if we have a decent amount of money to spend.
Okay. So how do you perceive Paul Gascoigne?
He's not someone I think we should sign