[Insanity]

It’s a real problem we brought in a player who has such a limited function and isn’t elite at that limited function. He picks up too many cards and gets gazumped in melees and chaos; we see with Casemiro - even in his aged state - what holding the position is supposed to look like. Appreciate we need his legs and engine, but I think it’s apparent he will be relegated to the bench as soon as we can upgrade.

Don’t have anything against him and you can see he gives everything he has to the cause, but his limitations are obvious and it’s abundantly clear why PSG moved him on. The obvious worry with him being sat deep is oppo targeting him for the press and shakedowns and you negate that by having him higher up the pitch and away from that high intensity passing and moving game that he’s very uncomfortable with.

Not going to comment on Ederson, but I will say I don’t think someone like Ugarte can be bailed out, even with a Scholes next to him; you have to be able to hold your own and be comfortable in one and two touch football. Even if a great partner does the heavy lifting they’re still going to need to be able to pas to you, even if it’s just to move into space to receive it back, and that’s the juncture where Ugarte will lose the ball. It’s just not his game or forte, imo. Put him high and have him run free to his heart’s content and then only have to concern himself with finding any red shirt, and he’d look a lot better and capable, but we don’t play that kind of system so it’s a difficult situation.

I agree. That was the biggest skepticism regarding his signing in the summer. It was pretty evident that his lack of ball playing skills is why he was being let go by Enrique. Didn't know he wasn't even Kante-lite. His lack of stamina is another problem, tends to fade out late in games and as the manager mentioned cannot start mid-week if he has played 90 at the weekend.

A player really needs elite passing, vision and ability to evade the press to play in the deeper role. Ugarte certainly doesn't have it. If we get a deeper midfielder ala Carrick, but stronger and faster, I think we'll see him paired with Bruno more often and Ugarte will be become an expensive bench option with limited use in some tougher games where we need a midfielder to break up play and harry the opposition. As someone mentioned he is Fred type player who can maybe play the Wijnaldum role in a Klopp team.

The only way I can see him used here in a pairing with Ederson or a similar type of midfielder is if Amo decides to go with a double pivot and leaves the build-up responsibility to the CB's and the WB's. However, his use of Bruno in the midfield and the comeback of Casemiro back into the fold suggests to me that he likes at least one of his midfielders to be a passer.

I guess the summer window and the player we buy will give an idea of the direction he intends to go with the midfield.

 

[Kostov]

The first half an hour was the worst I have seen him play for us, Bilbao were aggressive and he struggled while trying to be an outlet, when Casemiro was nowhere to be seen.

 

[Adisa]

Technique has to be a non-negotiable when signing players going forward. I don't care what other qualities they have. If they're not technically top players, don't sign them.

 

[Leftback99]

His limitations were obvious before we bought him and were pointed out in the summer.

 

[Roux]

Casemiro rightly tore into him - shocking first 25mins.

 

[Olecurls99]

I'd prefer Casemiro for his passing range and vision but either or it is the most balanced midfield. I would never have opted for Bruno as a central midfielder during his career at United but with a back 3 / 5 it's more disingenuous to have two defensive 6's.

I think there's a clear blueprint for the opposing team however when Casemiro + Ugarte start. It's obvious to press the team high up the field and force mistakes / turnovers being that both Case & Ugarte arent adept on the half turn. Robbie savage made a great point about the game changing when Casemiro had the game in front of him as opposed to him facing away from open play.

If Amorim wants this team to be able to play out from the back and beat the press, I really don't see how Ugarte has a future. He'll be in the same situation he was with PSG where his intuition and tendencies don't aid a team in possession. He would have been perfect under Ole and Mourinho.

Maybe with Shaws passing ability from LCB we could play Ugarte and Casemiro

 

[SER19]

He grew into it and ended with 2 assists, but had a woeful opening. There is some hope there, its also his first season in England, and people forget he only just turned 24. Scholes called him one of the 'older players' last night. I think sometimes people think hes 27,28. We never stop going on about how much more physical the PL is, so why cant Ugarte have a season to get used to it? Whatever your opinion on him, hes been nowhere near poor enough to write off already.

 

[Ezkay]

I think he's a good player. Definitely not technically good enough for Enrique, and I do wonder if Amorim was fine with him being sold to PSG. He's a 7/10 player so far IMV.

I just don’t understand what makes him anything more than a 5/10. He’s so limited going (I think that’s generous) going forward and defensively he’s a joke he dives in 10 times a game and wins the ball maybe twice

He grew into it and ended with 2 assists, but had a woeful opening. There is some hope there, its also his first season in England, and people forget he only just turned 24. Scholes called him one of the 'older players' last night. I think sometimes people think hes 27,28. We never stop going on about how much more physical the PL is, so why cant Ugarte have a season to get used to it? Whatever your opinion on him, hes been nowhere near poor enough to write off already.

This is not his first season in football, he's playing similar to how he did at PSG and also Lisbon - he's just super limited that's not going to change, it's like saying a few years ago Maguire is young he''ll get faster when he gets used to United.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I just don’t understand what makes him anything more than a 5/10. He’s so limited going (I think that’s generous) going forward and defensively he’s a joke he dives in 10 times a game and wins the ball maybe twice

This is not his first season in football, he's playing similar to how he did at PSG and also Lisbon - he's just super limited that's not going to change, it's like saying a few years ago Maguire is young he''ll get faster when he gets used to United.

Well somebody didn't watch Maguire yesterday rinse the Bilbao fullback with pace and technical wing play wizardry.

If Maguire can do, there's no telling what Ugarte could do.

 

[Lennon7]

The feck? Thought Garnacho was excellent for most of the night and especially the first half was absolutely key with his tenacity. Unlucky with the marginal offside on his goal too and drew a good save from their keeper in the 2nd half.

Don't think there's any chance that he doesn't start the final given how important he's been to us the last few months.

Not sure how we’re staying this. Everyone was good last night, but in the second half Garnacho was poor. Same old tricks giving the ball away, running into danger, poor decision making. Was good in the first half, not great, and just getting a little bored of his limited abilities in a similar way I was to Rashford. Amad is a level above imo.

 

[Ezkay]

Well somebody didn't watch Maguire yesterday rinse the Bilbao fullback with pace and technical wing play wizardry.

If Maguire can do, there's no telling what Ugarte could do.

Maguire has always been capable of those dribbles, there’s always videos circulating of some crazy runs out wide for Leicester. Ugarte struggles to trap the ball

 

[Olecurls99]

He lost possession 10 times, the rest of the team lost possession 17 times combined.

He made 30 passes, only Rasmus had less. None of the 30 were key passes, Onana made 27.

He made 0 tackles, and 0 tackle attempts.

0 interceptions had 0 clearances and 0 blocks.

He attempted 4 dribbles and made 1.

He created no chances, played no through balls to go with no goals or assists.

Where exactly is this excellent game he had and why doesn't it appear in any of the actual facts?

Tenacity

 

[Vault Dweller]

Mental performance. Couldn't pass a parcel for most of it, then a tremendous leap and header assist and great assist for Bruno too. Don't quite know what to make of him.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He lost possession 10 times, the rest of the team lost possession 17 times combined.

He made 30 passes, only Rasmus had less. None of the 30 were key passes, Onana made 27.

He made 0 tackles, and 0 tackle attempts.

0 interceptions had 0 clearances and 0 blocks.

He attempted 4 dribbles and made 1.

He created no chances, played no through balls to go with no goals or assists.

Where exactly is this excellent game he had and why doesn't it appear in any of the actual facts?

This confused the shit out of me. I was convinced Ugarte had made two assists and at least one tackle.

Can we keep the detailed analysis of Garnacho to the thread about Garnacho?

 

[Yostoed]

He lost possession 10 times, the rest of the team lost possession 17 times combined.

He made 30 passes, only Rasmus had less. None of the 30 were key passes, Onana made 27.

He made 0 tackles, and 0 tackle attempts.

0 interceptions had 0 clearances and 0 blocks.

He attempted 4 dribbles and made 1.

He created no chances, played no through balls to go with no goals or assists.

Where exactly is this excellent game he had and why doesn't it appear in any of the actual facts?

Bored discussing him on twitter and on here. He was diabolical last night and a huge liability. There's no reason any sane manager should be playing him over Mainoo.

 

[Quagmaguire]

Bit weird the hate.

He was arguably our most important player in 2 of our 3 goals.

Very shaky under possession but that's because Bilbao play with a high forward line press whilst their defenders sit deep.

For all his inability to be good on the ball his got 2 assists

 

[SER19]

I just don’t understand what makes him anything more than a 5/10. He’s so limited going (I think that’s generous) going forward and defensively he’s a joke he dives in 10 times a game and wins the ball maybe twice

This is not his first season in football, he's playing similar to how he did at PSG and also Lisbon - he's just super limited that's not going to change, it's like saying a few years ago Maguire is young he''ll get faster when he gets used to United.

No im not saying that. He is limited yes, but lots of limtied players have brilliant roles in a well drilled team. A player like Ugarte can be key in many systems without individual brilliance. My point is that even with the limitations - they have been so badly exposed to write him off. Id be surprised if he isnt better next season and again, every player we have improves in a well drilled, well oiled system. Weve seen this endlessly, even under ferguson, where individuals play to their absolute strengths in a functional team, which we are not. I think he's shown enough to not write off

 

[Bobby_2024]

I think players like Ugarte excel when they play next to someone like Kroos/Dejong,

Do you guys want to replace Ugarte in summer OR you will give him another year by bringing in some quality additions around him.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

One of his worst performances for Utd and yet two crucial assists

That's 3 assists and a goal in his last 3 Europa League matches. Wouldn't have expected this much attacking output from him.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He did do some good stuff as well as the assists. The move that ended in a penalty began with an absolute peach of a tackle from Ugarte.

 

[MadDogg]

I did think that the one thing Ugarte was clearly superior to Fred on was his press-resistance, but I'm starting to question that now too. He struggled badly for the first 20-25 minutes, and he's had a few poor moments lately in similar situations.

He was starting to turn it around even before the red card though, so it wasn't just the 11v10 that helped him get to grips with it. Hopefully he can have a good end to the season which would be a big help if the likely Spurs final does happen.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

As bad as he started the game, it was jive to see a fancy flick from a player in the final third actually work. Let alone actually lead to a goal.

 

[Olecurls99]

As bad as he started the game, it was jive to see a fancy flick from a player in the final third actually work. Let alone actually lead to a goal.

It's jive to see the word jive used. Thank you

 

[cpresc]

Well Shaw will start over Lindelof.

Oh yeah great point, I forgot about Lindelof.

Yeah De Ligt in for him.

I think we might see Amad for Mazza too actually to push Spurs back a bit more, hopefully he’s fit

 

[cpresc]

Amad, Shaw and possibly de ligt (toss up between him and Maguire given his form).

Garna will surely start, but Amad has every chance either at RWB or at RAM while Bruno drops in midfield. Nice to have some options, and the form over the closing weeks of the season will be a big decider.

So you’d drop Case after last night? Big call that

 

[M Bison]

Not a great game for him but i remain a fan and a little surprised at the level of criticism in here.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

It's jive to see the word jive used. Thank you

You’re most welcome! Jive to see some decorum on this place

 

[bosnian_red]

So you’d drop Case after last night? Big call that

Not at all! Case one of the first names on the team sheet. But maybe go with Bruno and Case in midfield.

Realistically yeah just one of Garna or Amad so we can have the other on the bench to impact. We'll probably go more cautious as it's a final anyway. Ugarte, Case, Bruno and Hojlund will all start, so it's Amad or Garna for the other 10, then Maz and Dorgu at wing back.

 

[Teja]

I'd prefer Casemiro for his passing range and vision but either or it is the most balanced midfield. I would never have opted for Bruno as a central midfielder during his career at United but with a back 3 / 5 it's more disingenuous to have two defensive 6's.

I think there's a clear blueprint for the opposing team however when Casemiro + Ugarte start. It's obvious to press the team high up the field and force mistakes / turnovers being that both Case & Ugarte arent adept on the half turn. Robbie savage made a great point about the game changing when Casemiro had the game in front of him as opposed to him facing away from open play.

If Amorim wants this team to be able to play out from the back and beat the press, I really don't see how Ugarte has a future. He'll be in the same situation he was with PSG where his intuition and tendencies don't aid a team in possession. He would have been perfect under Ole and Mourinho.

I think runner / tackler + playmaker is a pretty standard combination in 3-5-2s. Even ignoring Amorim ball, consider how Chelsea used to line up with guys like Kovacic + Jorginho or Kante + Jorginho. Please don't yell at me and say Kante wasn't just a destroyer, I'm aware of how underrated he still remains. Just saying one of the players being Ugarte is fine for the other things he brings to the game, the other player must be an actual regista to complement his skillset.

Maybe it's Bruno going forward. Maybe it's a new guy like a Partey or a Berge (Angelo Stiller is my current favorite but there's a ton of average Spanish / Portuguese midfielders that can provide this exact skill). We need someone to receive the ball back to goal, evade the press from the first man, turn and play it forward.

For this season Amorim needs to find a tactical solution with what he's got -- if we must play Ugarte and Casemiro deep, then maybe start one of Ugarte / Casemiro a bit higher and Bruno deep on goal kicks but then they exchange places once the phase of play changes. Maybe it's just starting Shaw at LCB and getting him to dust off the cobwebs in time for the EL final. Maybe it's Heaven (what happened to the guy !?). Maybe it's just to stop building up entirely and play long ball on goal kicks. Maybe a combination of everything.

Status quo means we lose the final (and maybe even the 2nd leg of the SF)

 

[ArcherfromtheNorth]

First season in here and he's already making big contributions in crucial games.

The guy is a winner and brings something this Club has been lacking for a long time. You need to compliment him with a deep playmaker and he's fine.

But sure lets focus on bringing some sexier flashier players like a Pogba, Sancho, or someone of that profile. I'm sure if you put a Tchouameni in there the team would be so much better.

 

[Apokalips]

Technique has to be a non-negotiable when signing players going forward. I don't care what other qualities they have. If they're not technically top players, don't sign them.

100% agree, the best teams always have technically proficient players, especially in midfield!

All this talk about having work men midfielders and letting the CBs do the ball playing is ridiculous. Even the best ball playing CBs are not a patch on good technical midfielders and our standard of ball play will just suffer if we are expecting Yoro, Maguire, etc. to be stepping into the midfield and doing all of the ball playing work.

The ball playing CB is meant to be a bonus that creates numerical superiority because CBs aren't usually that good on the ball, not take the CM responsibility. That just negates the benefit because the CMs will be basic on the ball and unable to help capitalise on the additional numbers. CMs should also be able to take the sting out of games when we need to and help establish a foothold.

I never understand why people clamour for such limited players in such important positions and make excuses for them, especially when I saw how much flak someone like Pogba got for his deficiencies despite being on another planet to players like Ugarte, Hojlund, Mount, etc. whose shortcomings are accepted and excused by so many.

PSG headed in the right direction with their midfield targets and we bailed them out by signing Ugarte for such a large fee. He will hopefully be a great squad player but I don't believe he should have been the player that we prioritised last summer and I really want to see us start finally signing top quality technicians in midfield like Modric, Kroos, Joao Neves, etc. type players. I yearn for the days of Scholes and Carrick type passers.

 

[RuudTom83]

I find analysing a player after every 90 minutes to be a bit daft.

Sometimes players just need time to settle into the match as it plays out. United won 3-0 and he had 2 assists. That's about as deep of an analysis I'd go.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I did think that the one thing Ugarte was clearly superior to Fred on was his press-resistance, but I'm starting to question that now too. He struggled badly for the first 20-25 minutes, and he's had a few poor moments lately in similar situations.

He was starting to turn it around even before the red card though, so it wasn't just the 11v10 that helped him get to grips with it. Hopefully he can have a good end to the season which would be a big help if the likely Spurs final does happen.

They both have their peaks and troughs in this department. Both are capable of taking a ball on the half turn or when pressed from behind but are also equally capable of losing it with little awareness/poor touches. I think Ugarte plays in a more orthodox manner in this respect and as shown earlier this season, he's plenty capable of receiving and passing in those tight pockets. Therefore on the whole, he might be more consistent in the long run but a lot of it the inconsistency comes down to our terrible shape and movement imo. I hate to turn it into another manager bashing but outside of the formation and player's set positions, our ball progression is still mostly based on instinct/individual play rather than actual patterns and rehearsed movements. Whether it's under ETH or Amorim, I don't envy our players playing at the back, in the middle of the park or in the centre forward position i.e the spine of the pitch.

 

[El-Manos]

I think players like Ugarte excel when they play next to someone like Kroos/Dejong,

Do you guys want to replace Ugarte in summer OR you will give him another year by bringing in some quality additions around him.

Might be the case however we said the same about Pogba that he needed such and such type of midfielder around him to make it work. Same for Casemiro etc... We're doing it with Hojlund too that he need x type of wingers around him.

. If you're good enough it shouldn't matter. Bruno has thrived in every system we've played over the years. Because he is United quality.

 

[choiboyx012]

Tough crowd here. We’ve been crying for years that our players don’t have urgency, don’t/can’t run, no passion. Of our many problems, ugarte isn’t one of them. He's all over the pitch closing players down, tackling, getting physical, and pops up in attacks and has contributed to important goals. He’s the closest thing we have had to a kante type player.

He wasn’t good in the first half but no one really was. Bilbao were all over us and are excellent at pressing. Much happier having him than Pogba, who would’ve really cost us goals with his cute dribbling and flicks in our own half.

 

[#07]

Confidence in football can have magical impacts. Ugarte looked like a competition winner until we scored. Next thing you know he's making back heel assists.

You'd have thought you were watching twins, hard to believe the same player performed so differently in the space of a few minutes!

I still don't see him as the long term answer to the question: how do we replace Michael Carrick. But he's better than he's been playing and I'd like him to show more than he has lately.

 

[antohan]

Does he not sit for Uruguay?

@antohan is your man for Uruguay. Not a team I have watched outside of tournaments.

I was on a long-haul flight and missed the game so have no context to work with.

I wouldn't say he sits for Uruguay, you hardly "sit" in a Bielsa team, he is just more focused on protecting the backline than Valverde. I would definitely say his very best games have been when he has spent a fair chunk of the game pressing and recovering high up the pitch which he hasn't done all that much with us.

I mentioned back when we signed him that he was ok for the build up but you needed it to revolve around others. For the NT when he has Ronald and Olivera at CB and Valverde/Bentancur as partners he is absolutely fine. Everyone around him is decent on the ball and all he has to do is always offer an option. Now, when we play Josema Giménez and other cloggers, what you end up seeing is too much of the ball and responsibility going to/through him, which isn't great. You want him being an option, not the option for rivals to target.

To his credit, he consistently makes himself available. He doesn't shirk the responsibility or hide/go into his shell when it's not going well. Again, I didn't see the game last night but wouldn't be surprised if he exposed himself and stuck out partly due to making himself available time and again no matter what had just happened 30 seconds ago. It is ultimately that sort of attitude that results in what seems to have been a stinker randomly mixed with two assists.

 

[moses]

I was on a long-haul flight and missed the game so have no context to work with.

I wouldn't say he sits for Uruguay, you hardly "sit" in a Bielsa team, he is just more focused on protecting the backline than Valverde. I would definitely say his very best games have been when he has spent a fair chunk of the game pressing and recovering high up the pitch which he hasn't done all that much with us.

I mentioned back when we signed him that he was ok for the build up but you needed it to revolve around others. For the NT when he has Ronald and Olivera at CB and Valverde/Bentancur as partners he is absolutely fine. Everyone around him is decent on the ball and all he has to do is always offer an option. Now, when we play Josema Giménez and other cloggers, what you end up seeing is too much of the ball and responsibility going to/through him, which isn't great. You want him being an option, not the option for rivals to target.

To his credit, he consistently makes himself available. He doesn't shirk the responsibility or hide/go into his shell when it's not going well. Again, I didn't see the game last night but wouldn't be surprised if he exposed himself and stuck out partly due to making himself available time and again no matter what had just happened 30 seconds ago. It is ultimately that sort of attitude that results in what seems to have been a stinker randomly mixed with two assists.

Cheers antohan

 

[Utterly De Ligt'd]

Bit weird the hate.

He was arguably our most important player in 2 of our 3 goals.

Very shaky under possession but that's because Bilbao play with a high forward line press whilst their defenders sit deep.

For all his inability to be good on the ball his got 2 assists

Pick a few of the haters and go through their history, good chance they were all drooling over Joao Neves last summer and now they still haven't accepted we got Ugarte instead.

 

[sullydnl]

I would definitely say his very best games have been when he has spent a fair chunk of the game pressing and recovering high up the pitch which he hasn't done all that much with us.

And yet...