Mario Götze

[FC Ronaldo]

Doesn't he have the best (or close to) reaction times on the footbonaut machine too?

I know in Raf Honigstein's Das Reboot he waxes lyrical about a story of Santana being non-plussed by the machine as he was "already a pro" whereas Gotze's desire was to use it as a means to continue getting better. Always going to look favourable in that story (versatile and clever AM vs a labouring defender of Santana's standard) but it gives an insight into the further professionalism and attitude that @Balu touched on.

If he came to OT I really think he could be a Mata-Ozil hybrid for us. Would welcome his arrival wholeheartedly.

Here is the footbonaut for those that don't know (might make a separate thread on this, it's worth it). Note its existence was developed by the German FA but BVB were the first BL team to adopt it. Many have done since (Hoffenheim most prominently).

EDIT - thread now made... https://www.redcafe.net/threads/footbonaut-football-and-reaction-training-device.413410/

 

[Scarecrow]

I'd love him here if he can show he's past the injuries. Then again, if he could stay fit for a long period of time Bayern would probably hold on to him.

 

[sun_tzu]

I can see Gotze staying with the new manager for at least a season as he may well find himself playing more often

If not he can sign a bosman in Jan 2017 (I think) probably for crazy wages

 

[Crossie]

That's complete nonsense in my opinion. There's really not the slightest indication in his behaviour to support that.

IMO it's exactly the opposite, and it started long before he decided to move to Bayern, and to imply that Götze carried Dortmund in 11/12 is more than a bit exaggerated, no offense.

 

[Balu]

IMO it's exactly the opposite, and it started long before he decided to move to Bayern, and to imply that Götze carried Dortmund in 11/12 is more than a bit exaggerated, no offense.

I didn't talk about the full season. I said he did in the first half of the season. Kagawa struggled to find form for months after his injury in the previous season, Gündogan needed a lot of time to adapt in the new system and Sahin was gone. Götze ran the show and he was never better in his career than during those months. I'm pretty sure @Sphaero would agree with that. Obviously he missed the 2nd half of the season through injury and Kagawa hit his peak form at the perfect time together with Gündogan, which resulted in that crazy successful run that lead to the title and cup win.

Thinking about it, has Götze ever had a full season without a long injury? It's fecking annoying, that he can't stay healthy at all.

 

[do.ob]

I sort of agree with @Balu. At the start of the 11/12 season Dortmund were almost completely relying on him to make things happen for said reasons and to a lesser extend the same could be said about the second half of 10/11, when Kagawa was injured and Lewandowski was playing in midfield. The level of responsibility he shouldered (though his performances, consistency and maturity on the pitch) was completely unreal for a teen.

 

[Sphaero]

I didn't talk about the full season. I said he did in the first half of the season. Kagawa struggled to find form for months after his injury in the previous season, Gündogan needed a lot of time to adapt in the new system and Sahin was gone. Götze ran the show and he was never better in his career than during those months. I'm pretty sure @Sphaero would agree with that. Obviously he missed the 2nd half of the season through injury and Kagawa hit his peak form at the perfect time together with Gündogan, which resulted in that crazy successful run that lead to the title and cup win.

Thinking about it, has Götze ever had a full season without a long injury? It's fecking annoying, that he can't stay healthy at all.

Yep. In the whole Klopp era there was never a period where we were as reliant on a single player as that time. There was a series of around a dozen league matches were it was painfully. Beisdes the long passes by Hummels from the back all impulses in our offensive play came from Götze. He carried us massively and was the main reason we started the insane run, which would last until the end of the season. Until De Bruyne´s last season at Wolfsburg there was no single player in the Bundesliga who had that much of an impact by himself.

I still firmly believe that Götze´s transfer came one or two years too early. He might have been ready in terms of traditional skills, but I think he would have handled the transition better mentally if he would have matured as person a bit more at his home club. He did not transfer under easy circumstances as he did receive a lot of backlash for the way the transfer happened not only by Dortmund supporter, but also neutrals and press. The way he handled it was a pretty clear sign that he was still a kid by that time, a pretty ungrateful one.

 

[Silverman]

Don't need him. We have Herrera who doesn't get enough games. We need pace.

 

[Trizy]

Isco would probably be cheaper and is a much better player. It's a pity he never hit the heights he was supposed to.

Still a handy player though, not an upgrade on what we already have in Mata though.

 

[Blackwidow]

Yep. In the whole Klopp era there was never a period where we were as reliant on a single player as that time. There was a series of around a dozen league matches were it was painfully. Beisdes the long passes by Hummels from the back all impulses in our offensive play came from Götze. He carried us massively and was the main reason we started the insane run, which would last until the end of the season. Until De Bruyne´s last season at Wolfsburg there was no single player in the Bundesliga who had that much of an impact by himself.

I still firmly believe that Götze´s transfer came one or two years too early. He might have been ready in terms of traditional skills, but I think he would have handled the transition better mentally if he would have matured as person a bit more at his home club. He did not transfer under easy circumstances as he did receive a lot of backlash for the way the transfer happened not only by Dortmund supporter, but also neutrals and press. The way he handled it was a pretty clear sign that he was still a kid by that time, a pretty ungrateful one.

You talk about 11/12, or?

Götze got injured matchday 16
Until then: Dortmund wins 9, looses 3, draws 3 - 3 points behind Bayern

After that: Dortmund only draws 2 matches. Absolutely great run. Without Götze.

The other competitions as long Götze participates. CL: 6 matches, 4 losses, 1 win, 1 draw
2 cup matches won against Lautern and Dresden - not really challenges

At matchday 16 Götze had 5 goals and 5 assists, Lewy had 10 goals and 5 assists

How can Götze trigger anything if he does not play...

Let me understand that - I know that I do not know anything about Dortmund at all... His aura?

 

[Crossie]

I didn't talk about the full season. I said he did in the first half of the season.

I actually meant first half though didn't type it but it doesn't change my view.

Not surprisingly, Götze dismissed the rumors him moving to LFC anyway, and although it's challenging to take anything he says seriously, this for one sounds credible.

 

[Sphaero]

You talk about 11/12, or?

Götze got injured matchday 16
Until then: Dortmund wins 9, looses 3, draws 3 - 3 points behind Bayern

After that: Dortmund only draws 2 matches. Absolutely great run. Without Götze.

The other competitions as long Götze participates. CL: 6 matches, 4 losses, 1 win, 1 draw
2 cup matches won against Lautern and Dresden - not really challenges

At matchday 16 Götze had 5 goals and 5 assists, Lewy had 10 goals and 5 assists

How can Götze trigger anything if he does not play...

Let me understand that - I know that I do not know anything about Dortmund at all... His aura?

I´m the last person who will deny that we were fantastic in the second season half, but this success was thanks to multiple players (Gündogan, Lewandowski, Kuba, Kagawa) stepping up big time and Hummels (our player of the season) continuing his amazing form. Most of them were struggling at the time Götze carried the team.

There are two things I generally disagree with in your reasoning:

1. Taking team results as measure stick for individual performances without the right context. This is still a team game and one player can only do so much. If anything, in this example it actually speaks for Götze, though. In two of the three mentioned league losses he was not even on the pitch as he was banned after a (debatable) red card, in the third one he was subbed after 40 minutes after receiving a knock in a tackle. In every of these games it became painfully obvious how reliant we were on his impact on the game.

2. Arguing just on the base of stats, unless the players impact is defined by them. Götze at Dortmund was a player, who operated in a bigger area than just the final third of the pitch. This seperated him in style from someone like Reus for example. Götze biggest contribution was actual playmaking, being the engine of our play. This major aspect of his game became extremely valuable for us as the main drive behind our offensive build up (Sahin) had left the club and the successor (Gündogan) struggled to adapt. Götze was rightfully never judged by just assists or goals, because at his best his game was way more than that. This can also be seen if we compare his last season at Dortmund with his first at Bayern. In terms of goals and assists there was not much between both seasons, but the vast majority of neutrals and also experts would agree that his overall performance was on a higher Level at his old club.

 

[Fer]

Isco would probably be cheaper and is a much better player. It's a pity he never hit the heights he was supposed to.

Still a handy player though, not an upgrade on what we already have in Mata though.

I think Isco will stay at Madrid. He could be sold if Real Madrid signs Pogba, in that case it's possible that we will sign for the new Guardiola's team... so realistically it could be City or in a dream world with us.

Gotze hasn't reach his potential, still a really good player. But I prefer Griezmann to play behind the striker instead of Gotze/Isco.

 

[Blackwidow]

I´m the last person who will deny that we were fantastic in the second season half, but this success was thanks to multiple players (Gündogan, Lewandowski, Kuba, Kagawa) stepping up big time and Hummels (our player of the season) continuing his amazing form. Most of them were struggling at the time Götze carried the team.

There are two things I generally disagree with in your reasoning:

1. Taking team results as measure stick for individual performances without the right context. This is still a team game and one player can only do so much. If anything, in this example it actually speaks for Götze, though. In two of the three mentioned league losses he was not even on the pitch as he was banned after a (debatable) red card, in the third one he was subbed after 40 minutes after receiving a knock in a tackle. In every of these games it became painfully obvious how reliant we were on his impact on the game.

2. Arguing just on the base of stats, unless the players impact is defined by them. Götze at Dortmund was a player, who operated in a bigger area than just the final third of the pitch. This seperated him in style from someone like Reus for example. Götze biggest contribution was actual playmaking, being the engine of our play. This major aspect of his game became extremely valuable for us as the main drive behind our offensive build up (Sahin) had left the club and the successor (Gündogan) struggled to adapt. Götze was rightfully never judged by just assists or goals, because at his best his game was way more than that. This can also be seen if we compare his last season at Dortmund with his first at Bayern. In terms of goals and assists there was not much between both seasons, but the vast majority of neutrals and also experts would agree that his overall performance was on a higher Level at his old club.

you talk too much without really answering. You do not seem to accept my personal views so I am taking stats because of that. L

Let me say it differently...
Dortmund started their winning streak the moment Götze got injured and the lst 2 or 3 matches of the season did not matter anymore. He did not play a role in the Cup final either...

In the time before that he assisted 5 goals - as much as Lewy, but Lewy scored with 10 goals the double. If I look in the scorer table of the Bundesliga he ranked 13th then... other players like mentioned Lewy but Shinji with 8 and Kevin with 6 do seem to not have the worst of seasons either.

I have problems to see the special playmaking qualities of somebody with 32 average passes a match... 11 in his team were better or with only the 13th best passing quote. That looks really more like a player that only works risk passes in the final third and not the build up... players I can apart from positioning and supporting runs mainly judge by contribution... But what do I know of Dortmund...

But is it really important how good he was until matchday 16, when you tell me that he was responsible for the run of Dortmund that started matchday 17... if he did not play the next couple of months until about April...You were there and you watched everything... so, how did he do it without being physically on the pitch and because of the rehab probably often not even in the stadium or daily in the training centre...








Uff, so much numbers again...

 

[do.ob]

you talk too much without really answering. You do not seem to accept my personal views so I am taking stats because of that. L

Let me say it differently...
Dortmund started their winning streak the moment Götze got injured and the lst 2 or 3 matches of the season did not matter anymore. He did not play a role in the Cup final either...

In the time before that he assisted 5 goals - as much as Lewy, but Lewy scored with 10 goals the double. If I look in the scorer table of the Bundesliga he ranked 13th then... other players like mentioned Lewy but Shinji with 8 and Kevin with 6 do seem to not have the worst of seasons either.

I have problems to see the special playmaking qualities of somebody with 32 average passes a match... 11 in his team were better or with only the 13th best passing quote. That looks really more like a player that only works risk passes in the final third and not the build up... players I can apart from positioning and supporting runs mainly judge by contribution... But what do I know of Dortmund...

But is it really important how good he was until matchday 16, when you tell me that he was responsible for the run of Dortmund that started matchday 17... if he did not play the next couple of months until about April...You were there and you watched everything... so, how did he do it without being physically on the pitch and because of the rehab probably often not even in the stadium or daily in the training centre...








Uff, so much numbers again...

Jesus.. what is it with you and (former) Dortmund players? Dortmund were en route to a crisis at the beginning of 11/12, so yeah, it's not unreasonable to say that Götze was an important part in creating the momentum and level of confidence that propelled them to their insane second half of the season.
I assume you left out the fact that Götze was leading his team in key passes and dribbles per game even though eh missed the half of the season where they went beserk, because it doesn't fit your fantasy narrative and I don't treat Kicker's mark as facts, but they are a decent indicator and he had by far the highest average rating of his entire team (and possibly the league too - haven't checked that thoroughly) while - again - only playing the part of the season where his team struggled.

 

[Balu]

Dortmund started their winning streak the moment Götze got injured

That's just not true. Dortmund were in 11th position with only 7 points after 6 matches, already 8 points behind Bayern and they had just lost the last 2 games in which Götze was suspended because of the silly red card. They struggled heavily without him. Over the next 9 matches, Götze played sensational football, which lead to 7 wins and 2 draws. Dortmund cut our lead in the table to one point and were in 2nd place. Götze also scored the game winning goal in Dortmund's 1-0 away win in Munich, which totally changed the momentum in the league. 24 minutes into the 10th game of that run, Götze was injured. They only drew and finished the first half of the season 3 points behind Bayern.

The notion that those 9 matches, in which Götze carried the full creative burden of the team played no role in their league win that season is utter nonsense and none of the numbers you provided tell us differently. Saying their winning streak started after he was injured is proper mental really. Their title winning and record breaking form started at matchday 7 with Götze being the most influential player in kicking it off.

 

[Blackwidow]

Oh - I do not have any problems with any former Dortmund players. I have problems with some arguments here who make some things bigger than the were and in the same time make other achievements smaller. And some of the arguments here just stink - no matter how many people come to help.

I for sure do not have any problems with Götze - I know what he can do - and what he cannot. But we still are at the same topic.

How did he trigger the unbeaten streak...

Just to come back to it - here are the results of that Bundesliga season chronically:

The pink matches are the ones Götze missed.

In the last 10 matches after the red card accident he had goals and assists in four - he did not in six. The last two matches he played were a draw. It does not really matter here off how much influence Götze was prior to his injury - I think you diminish the influence of other players if you emphasize Götze's input too much - but as you clearly can see Dortmund did not win all the matches with him on the pitch - and in the next matches after he got injured they started a winning series with 15 matches in which they lost none and drew only 2.

Sphaero told that Götze had a big influence in this winning streak - and I do not understand why and wanted an explanation for it. If everything ran through Götze before and he was that important - why didn't they loose anymore (or drew) when he was not playing.

I have explanations for it - that do not have anything to do with Götze.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

We need a proper no.10, somebody who takes responsibility and isn't a passenger like mata. Im not sure if that player is Gotze as i havent watched him enough but i would imagine him or Isco would straight away become one of our top players.

 

[Mainoldo]

We need a proper no.10, somebody who takes responsibility and isn't a passenger like mata. Im not sure if that player is Gotze as i havent watched him enough but i would imagine him or Isco would straight away become one of our top players.

But yet non of them career wise have had a season to match Mata's best either at Valencia or Chelsea. Basically what I'm trying to see people need to stop pretending these players will make a big difference, when they are no different to Mata.

 

[fcbforever]

He looked fantastic at the start of the season ans Ancelotti really has a history with great #10's. He should stay and I hope he will. First German player since I am watching football which really, really looked like Ballon d'Or material. If we don't get him to that level, it might be our fault after all.

 

[cesc's_mullet]

I always preferred Hazard over him when the direct comparisons were being made. However, I would love him at Arsenal. Can't ever have enough quality players.

 

[Fer]

We need a proper no.10, somebody who takes responsibility and isn't a passenger like mata. Im not sure if that player is Gotze as i havent watched him enough but i would imagine him or Isco would straight away become one of our top players.

Gotze or Isco are good options. What about Griezmann or Reus?
Even a player like Mane, Barkley, Pjanic or Texeira would improve our attack. However, I think the priority is now a right winger and a striker.

 

[do.ob]

Oh - I do not have any problems with any former Dortmund players. I have problems with some arguments here who make some things bigger than the were and in the same time make other achievements smaller. And some of the arguments here just stink - no matter how many people come to help.

I for sure do not have any problems with Götze - I know what he can do - and what he cannot. But we still are at the same topic.

How did he trigger the unbeaten streak...

Just to come back to it - here are the results of that Bundesliga season chronically:



The pink matches are the ones Götze missed.

In the last 10 matches after the red card accident he had goals and assists in four - he did not in six. The last two matches he played were a draw. It does not really matter here off how much influence Götze was prior to his injury - I think you diminish the influence of other players if you emphasize Götze's input too much - but as you clearly can see Dortmund did not win all the matches with him on the pitch - and in the next matches after he got injured they started a winning series with 15 matches in which they lost none and drew only 2.

Sphaero told that Götze had a big influence in this winning streak - and I do not understand why and wanted an explanation for it. If everything ran through Götze before and he was that important - why didn't they loose anymore (or drew) when he was not playing.

I have explanations for it - that do not have anything to do with Götze.

Yeah. Why watch football when you can look at goals and assists.

Gotze or Isco are good options. What about Griezmann or Reus?
Even a player like Mane, Barkley, Pjanic or Texeira would improve our attack. However, I think the priority is now a right winger and a striker.

I think there are several players that would improve the individual quality of United's attack and Götze is one of them. However I think United's problems run so deep that one player alone can't fix them and you'd have to expect that even high profile signings would disappoint to a certain degree.

 

[Man of Leisure]

However I think United's problems run so deep that one player alone can't fix them and you'd have to expect that even high profile signings would disappoint to a certain degree.

100% agree with this. Messi would struggle to find form in our side.

 

[Blackwidow]

Yeah. Why watch football when you can look at goals and assists.



I think there are several players that would improve the individual quality of United's attack and Götze is one of them. However I think United's problems run so deep that one player alone can't fix them and you'd have to expect that even high profile signings would disappoint to a certain degree.

Yeah. Why watch football when you can look at goals and assists.



I think there are several players that would improve the individual quality of United's attack and Götze is one of them. However I think United's problems run so deep that one player alone can't fix them and you'd have to expect that even high profile signings would disappoint to a certain degree.

oh I think that goals and assists for sure help winning more than not playing for weeks. But you and Sphaero think different it seems.

 

[Lawman]

Yeah. Why watch football when you can look at goals and assists.



I think there are several players that would improve the individual quality of United's attack and Götze is one of them. However I think United's problems run so deep that one player alone can't fix them and you'd have to expect that even high profile signings would disappoint to a certain degree.

Agree, Mane would be the best individual signing though due to his pace from a standing start with the ball. But we'd need to add a right winger maybe Moura is available but I'm just throwing names in. We also could be doing with a centre back and a right back, I'd like to see Rooney in a team with Mane Moura and Martial if he is still shite then its conclusive for me but he deserves the chance imo. After all RVP Hernandez Falcao Rooney have all looked dreadful in this system and whilst Falcao and RVP do look shot Henandez is flourishing under a different manager.

 

[Blackwidow]

Oh, that is not what I thought. Killerkalle has not even made a contract offer for a renewal for Götze. Contract expires in 18 months... Sportbild tells.

 

[Fer]

As far as I know, he ends contract on June 2017. He could play for us as a No.10, my favorite player in that position would be Griezmann but it seems his going to sign a new contract with a 100m release clause. If Real Madrid sells James, he can be another option to play behind the striker.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

With 18 months left on the deal, he's worth a cheeky bid surely.

 

[Mani]

Instead of wasting time in pursuing Muller woody could have tried getting him,Brilliant player.

 

[Adisa]

I don't think Ancelotti will want to give up on him. But with the way Sammer and Rumminege have been speaking, it's like they couldn't give a shit if he left.

 

[NJM78]

Gotze is a fantastic player, would love him at United. Better than anyone we currently have in his position and a great age too. Players like Gotze, Teixeira would improve this team greatly and are available by all accounts. Wont happen though because theirs names are not Muller, Bale, Neymar, Ronaldo etc, not worldy enough!

 

[Ballache]

Daily star (I know) is linking him to us,I'd gladly have him for the right price.

 

[Raees]

Don't know why on earth we would want him. He'd be another Mata.. overpriced, not very athletic and we would be struggling to fit him in as he doesn't have a natural position in which he can thrive. Do not want.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Don't know why on earth we would want him. He'd be another Mata.. overpriced, not very athletic and we would be struggling to fit him in as he doesn't have a natural position in which he can thrive. Do not want.

Gaitan it is then.

 

[Adisa]

Forgotten he existed.

 

[Raees]

Gaitan it is then.

Why are we taking so long to sign him. I reckon he didn't fancy Moyes or LVG.. once we get JM, he is definitely on his way here.

 

[Bojan11]

I see him going to Liverpool...

 

[Van Piorsing]

Why are we taking so long to sign him. I reckon he didn't fancy Moyes or LVG.. once we get JM, he is definitely on his way here.

JM already sold himself Mata to United. Gotze may be closer than far to be honest.

 

[Amar__]

Why are we taking so long to sign him. I reckon he didn't fancy Moyes or LVG.. once we get JM, he is definitely on his way here.

Maybe because we never wanted him in the first place?