Martial/Rashford - Can they make the next step?

[An Irish Red]

This. There’s no comparison in my opinion. Rashford is the better prospect and player.

It's honestly baffling to me that anyone could think this. Martial is better at everything that matters; touch, control, dribbling, passing, finishing, composure. He's levels above Rashford.

If we switched their nationalities I doubt anyone on here would rate Rashford higher.

 

[Frank Grimes]

I am losing patience with both of them tbh. We need players who can do the business now. Giggs was tearing it up at their age, consistently, not asking them to be that good but these guys are nowhere near that level.

 

[Janson]

I believe in Rashford a bit more, but tbh, I can see them both ending up at midtable PL teams.

 

[Oakie]

I am losing patience with both of them tbh. We need players who can do the business now. Giggs was tearing it up at their age, consistently, not asking them to be that good but these guys are nowhere near that level.

Was he hell Consistent before he was 27 rofl thats made my day he was anything but below 27. Giggs i mean

 

[Freak]

They both will eventually. They’re just too immature in their decision making and too inconsistent at this point in time. We need to get in some proper established attackers who don’t wet their beds in front of goal because this club needs to win the PL again soon to prevent being in a Liverpool like situation. And we won’t win it with these two, at least not yet- they have lots of growing up to do.

 

[SpyLuke10]

Martial most certainly, provided he doesn't get some horror injury, touch wood, super talented player, best young player in Manchester. Rashford I think has a chance, but I'm not convinced, I never have been, I have never seen the same thing in him that a lot of other United fans have. In fact the whole Martial vs Rashford debate has been pretty much put to death after that Leicester game. He'll probably end up somewhere halfway between Welbeck and Rooney in terms of how good he becomes. I personally don't think he'll ever become world class.

Also I thought I'd say, I actually thought that performance against Leicester was one of our best performances of the season, finish the sitters and we win 5-1 away at Leicester. That performance today was a lot better than the 4-0 wins versus Swansea and Everton for example.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Was he hell Consistent before he was 27 rofl thats made my day he was anything but below 27. Giggs i mean

He was a consistent game changer when he was 19 never mind 27. Clueless to think otherwise.

Ryan Giggs

This whole project started when I saw the post claiming that Giggs had astonishing 284 assists in his career. Surely, that's hogwash, with his goals, how could he be directly responsible for almost 25% of all United goals? Ridiculous. 100-150 at most I'd say. Didn't help that first two seasons I watched and counted the stats were 1992-93 and 1998-99. He had 5 and 7 in those.

Needless to say, I was dead wrong.

What an astonishing career for the most decorated player in MUFC & English football history. I'd say he was the best United player ever. It was popular on Cafe to say that Giggs never reached the highs Bale did for instance. I'll never agree with that. Especially after watching and re-watching his career in the past month or so. Skilled and fast, a real menace to opponents. And he did it for 20+ seasons.

In the sea of highlight videos, this one really isn't all that bad. More goals oriented though. He was much more than just that.

 

[Hawks2008]

It's honestly baffling to me that anyone could think this. Martial is better at everything that matters; touch, control, dribbling, passing, finishing, composure. He's levels above Rashford.

If we switched their nationalities I doubt anyone on here would rate Rashford higher.

Pretty much, although Rashford is better at crossing and looks like the better long-range shooter of the two. But everything else you said is correct IMO.

 

[RikRuud]

I believe they both can. So much talent in those kids. Nice to see Martials attitude seems to have improved a lot. Still looking to improve the squad in key areas which will only aid these two.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

They're both doing excellently.

We're harsh on our young players as is the case at a top club. But I think fans there should be a greater sense of excitement and contenment regarding these two than there is. For me, we've got two young footballers at the club as good (or thereabouts) as any in the country. The difference you see with City's youngsters is that they play in a better team and get more 'service' as opposed to what happens at United where our two have to create much of the openings on their own. Not to mention the general overload their team creates which means their players are always on the front foot and have far far lesser to do defensively.

For me, Martial is one who can genuinely be one of the best around. His all round is already at a superb level. Barring the odd bad game, I think he's one of our best players most games. His touch, intelligence, dribbling, finishing, athleticism etc. ensure that. I don't think he needs a huge improvement to reach the bracket the OP mentions. Rashford has a lower cieling from what I see but he can still be a top player (a level or two below elite). He is intelligent, scores goals, has decent delivery, good athleticism, boat loads of pace etc. Just because he doesn't have those 'elite' natural qualities that Martial does, that doesn't mean he can't be a great player in his own right.

These two are the future for me. And we have to get them to their potential as much as anything. They're assets of ours and us being successful will depend on them being as good as they can (as well as a lot of other factors of course).

 

[dichinero]

Yes they can but in this current set up and environment, not very confident tbh.

 

[Sky1981]

I remember people are being frustrated with ronaldo, spaghetti boy, one trick pony, make a simpler pass you showboating pony, and all that.

We want jose to produce youth but have no patience, we want to give youngsters a chance but quick to write them off.

Sell o'shea, fletcher is useless, etc.

 

[Hamadovich86]

Pretty convinced we'll have to let go of one of them some time soon, most likely Martial. I would really hate that but I dont think they can both develop at the same time in the same club. Their offensive strengths are a little different with Martial far ahead for me, the problem is they are very close in age, they play the same position and have similar weaknesses. I dont know how they can develop together and I dont know how long we can be patient with them, if we had a more consistent player in their position we would have scored way more goals. At the same time I think both are genuine talents and it would kill me if either left and found great success elsewhere.

 

[Arka_BleedingRed]

I am genuinely starting to think that there is some unresolved issue going on behind the scenes amongst Rashford, Jose and Martial. Rashford's body language, attitude has definitely been poor the last few games, and even Martial has shown some poor moments in the last 2 games. Instead of keeping both of them satisfied, I think Jose has managed to make them both unhappy. And it's certainly showing in their game, especially Rashford. The difference in their body language from the start of the season and right now is significantly large. I do hope that the situation will improve quickly because these two are the best talents we have, and it is imperative that they be used to their best of potential.
Also, comparisons between other attackers is of no use, because they are playing under different set-ups and tactics.

 

[dogwithabone]

Rashford is brainless a lot of the time, his awareness of team mates in better positions is shocking. Martial is a far, far more intelligent footballer but with him it’s just a case of can he go to the next level in terms of consistency.

 

[kouroux]

Of course they can. Anything can happen as they're still very raw. They're talented no doubt, maybe question mark whether Mourinho is the right coach to develop them but still they can make the next step and turn into very good and consistent players.

 

[Zlatattack]

Yeah they'll be fine long term. Rashford having a rough season as Martial had last year, both are very young, both are irrespective of any inconsistency still very productive. System doesn't always give them the best platform, same with reliance on them and injuries happening to everyone else, but they'll be okay. The least of our problems is those 2.

Only thing I worry about is where they'll develop. Think both are best as part of a front 2, martial the deeper striker, rashford a poacher. Martial probably can be as good as a wide forward in a 433 where he's higher up, while rashford is a poacher pure and simple. Lukaku is the issue as rashford can't play with him IMO, but is at his best around martial. So it's up to rashford to prove that he can develop into a better player long term. Martial should be fine as he's the best we have in that second striker role or as a left winger/wide forward.

Finally some sense.

I agree both will be fine, we see steady improvement all the time. In 3-4 years time it won't even be a question.

I personally think they need to train and be proficient as wide attackers first though. In the modern game attackers are fluid and need to be able to play in multiple positions during a match. The best ones can do that.

 

[Raees]

Feel sorry for Marcus at the moment, he's going through what Martial had to when trying to fight his way back into the side and angry boy syndrome has taken over and he's become mentally foggy on the pitch and is not making the decisions he would naturally make. His decision making when dribbling has always been hit and miss but his passing was always relatively solid and yet now we are seeing a distorted version of him and for me it's not lack of talent but mentally he doesn't look comfortable on the pitch at the moment - let's not kill him and write him off during what is a tough moment for him. Said it before but his biggest issue is that he is a moments player.. his general game can sometimes involve periods where he resembles a lower league player and then he can pull out moments of world class ability whereas Martial even in tired mode will still possess top tier technique and be able to keep the ball easily and his base level won't drop to the point where he is running it out of play or failing to control the ball. Martials flaw is this inability to run at full pelt all game but like I said, this may be because he just doesn't have the body to do this and is further evidence he needs to be deployed more centrally and have the chance to pick and chose his moments to do some running.

Rashford is basically a more talented Jamie Vardy.. an aggressive pace forward who should be pressing high and looking to be super direct and unleash that right bomb - he has a terrific right foot. Problem is that the hype is getting to him because he is playing in a manner as if he's this top silky forward when for me he's at his best when he is more Muller and Vardy... keeping it simple, finding space and making clever runs. He needs to tone down on dribbling or slowing game down.

Martial for me is definitely a top tier talent - sort of guy all the other top clubs would love to grab of us and mould him into a top tier 9 or second striker. He's a guy who can grab hold of any game and dictate with his ball carrying ability and his ability to pass whilst at full pelt. Problem is we limit him so much by just sticking him permanently on the left .. let him roam and I swear down we would be seeing one of the biggest talents in the prem. Look at Salah who even though he plays on left, you'll see him pop all over the place and he is rarely tracking back the same way Martial has to.. Martial is that level of forward if we utilise him correctly. The way we fed Marcus ego.. that is what we need to do with Martial and make him feel like a star because this is a lad who might come across tough but he seems like he lacks some confidence at times and I think that stems from playing out of position and his personal life.

Right now he's performing ok - I thought he was good yesterday he looked lively but to take it to that next level he needs the freedom to roam and he needs more technical team mates around him and an attacking manager guiding him. He'd be outscoring Sterling in a Pep side and be the 9 for Klopp ala Auba. He's the one guy who I hope we don't lose because he's the only forward we have that injects quality and excitement into our play. When he's not on the pitch we look very mediocre going forwards and workman like.

 

[Vilev]

I am genuinely starting to think that there is some unresolved issue going on behind the scenes amongst Rashford, Jose and Martial. Rashford's body language, attitude has definitely been poor the last few games, and even Martial has shown some poor moments in the last 2 games. Instead of keeping both of them satisfied, I think Jose has managed to make them both unhappy.

Agree 100%.
His competition and tough love backfired, and know we have two broken talented players who needed nurturing, not Jose-styled mind games.

 

[Vilev]

I think they both have talent for that. In his best games Rashford was immense, as was Martial.
The problem for them is consistency, but you can have that without trust. We also need proper attacking game, that could allow such players to flourish. If we take KDB, Sterling, Sane and put them in today's Mourinho team they will struggle as well.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Rashford lacks that footballing brain to be successful. Intelligence is equally important as is skill and talent.

 

[MZX7]

Martial, maybe. He needs a manager who puts more faith in him and doesn't demand him tracking back a lot. But, he will grow under Mourinho despite everything because he is extremely gifted.

Rashford needs to mature his game faster otherwise he'll get taken over by other more hungrier prospects. Don't think he will ever be worldclass regardless.

 

[Thunderhead]

Rashford (for me) plays in the wrong position and possibly the wrong set up, I think he'd thrive in a second forward role, similar to what Ali was playing for spurs last season

 

[Reiver]

He has an abundance of skill and positive qualities but his decision making consistently lets him down. I'm not just basing that on last night. Like others have said, left wing doesn't suit him.

 

[Classnordic]

They can, but not with the current environment/setup.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Think martial is already developing fantastically because he's a top class talent. He was the best man on the pitch yesterday and it's a shame about that miss because that would have finished off a brilliant showing.

 

[cyril C]

Martial - yes. His game has matured a lot , and I saw him returning for defence yesterday. Martial will never be another Willian but he can become a Hazard. He just need to further improve his decision making and be consistent in his game.

Rashford - don't know. His game in last 2 seasons were good when he could gate crash defenders. His game this season, noticeably after the CL free kick, has deteriorated seriously. May be he is trying to think too much but not capable of doing so. Unless and until he fix this problem, Martial will take up his 50% space and end up as impact sub. Whether he can move on from this status is unknown. Realistically Rashford can never develop into a Hazard or KDB, he is at best a Kane or Vardy. He simply doesn't has the intelligence

 

[AndyJ1985]

They have plenty of time so I'm not worried about them. The problem is we should have better senior attacking players to ease the pressure on them both. They aren't good enough to be regular starters for a team wanting to win the big two trophies. As impact subs and starters in domestic cups/easy league games they'd be perfect.

 

[AshRK]

Absilutely they can and they will. Just because they make silly decisions sometimes doesn't change the fact both have a great future ahead.

 

[whatwha]

Martial, probably. And hopefully at this club.
Rashford, I'm not sure. He doesn't have the same level of technical talent.
I think they both suffer a bit from being shunted out to compete for a LW spot. Martial might benefit from a freer role.

 

[Sultan]

This is not a thread to criticize them.

They've both been much more productive and influential this season. They can still be inconsistent, but it's an improvement from last season.

I know of all the complaints regarding Mourinho's system not truly elevating them to their peak performance potentially.

I will admit that I rate Martial higher than Rashford, but that's besides the point.

This is a thread where I'm curious what the cafe thinks regarding their next step. Basically, they become fairly consistent 'world class' attacker that would make it in most of our rivals' teams in the Prem and Europe.

Can they(or either of them) make that step?

I am not trying to kneejerk, though I probably picked a bad time for the thread.

But what say the cafe? Will either make the next step up?

Next step?

They Play for Manchester United and their respective countries at a very young age. They have already reached a "fairly consistent World class level". We tend to underestimate our own and focus on the latest in form players. I remember Ronaldo being very frustrating at times, and I'm sure Messi will have been just as frustrating at the age of Martial and Rashford. These players are young, talented and intelligent. To get to the next level comes with wisdom and that comes with age.

Remember the latest and greatest players this season were sold by Mourinho when they were at Chelsea and likely similar claims were aimed at De Bruyne, Salah and Lukaku.
I'll turn the question around. Should United sell these players only at the risk of them being World class in a few years at a different club?

My answer to your question is to enjoy and have some patience.

 

[Minimalist]

Think Martial is the more naturally talented player (not really sure if that's disputed by most). Even when he's off his game, he's still dangerous as hell on the ball. Can he step up? I really hope so and I think he will (hopefully at United rather than elsewhere).

Rashford I always hoped would become a new Andy Cole type striker but he's certainly got a bit of everything. He's got a great shot on him for one thing. I don't think it's as obvious as with Martial if Rashford has that higher level to move up to. Think it probably depends on how he's coached and managed over the next lot of years.

I'll be honest, while I can understand Martial playing on the left, I still have no fecking clue why Rashford ever plays there.

 

[Sultan]

I'll be honest, while I can understand Martial playing on the left, I still have no fecking clue why Rashford ever plays there.

Mourinho thinks likewise. That's the reason he's looking for a winger.

 

[Charles Miller]

Next step?

They Play for Manchester United and their respective countries at a very young age. They have already reached a "fairly consistent World class level". We tend to underestimate our own and focus on the latest in form players. I remember Ronaldo being very frustrating at times, and I'm sure Messi will have been just as frustrating at the age of Martial and Rashford. These players are young, talented and intelligent. Wisdom to get to the next level come with wisdom and that comes with age.

Remember the latest and greatest players this season were sold by Mourinho when they were at Chelsea and likely similar claims were aimed at De Bruyne, Salah and Lukaku.
I'll turn the question around. Should United sell these players only at the risk of them being World class in a few years at a different club?

My answer to your question is to enjoy and have some patience.

Agree with this. Some young players from Bundesliga and Ligue 1 linked with United have similar level, so i can't see the point of to sign them.
This is why i think we should insist with Martial and Rashford and bring some older players to help in the next years while our U-23 are developing.

 

[davidmichael]

I think they can BUT they need the right players around them to consistently bring out the best in them, right now outside of Pogba neither has a genuinely world class player around them that can do as such.

I think both Martial and Rashford would be better in a front trio with them interchanging with one on the left and the other through the middle which could be devastating IF they had someone on the right side of genuine quality and another in midfield alongside Pogba.

 

[RedStrudel76]

England International too soon, Manchester United's new superstar too soon.

I think he's had too much success too soon and maybe the ego has landed. Needs to be brought down a peg or two and taken out of the team to humble him a bit. Taking pot-shots from everywhere is OK if you are Messi and earned the right to do it, but not fecking Rashford.

It's a shame that Rashford will get more time and oppourtunity then say the enigmatic David Bellion or Beppe Rossi got, just because he was born local. And people wonder why there is English tax? it's because the patience fans have with English/British players as opposed to Johnny Foreigner.

 

[mav_9me]

They're both doing excellently.

We're harsh on our young players as is the case at a top club. But I think fans there should be a greater sense of excitement and contenment regarding these two than there is. For me, we've got two young footballers at the club as good (or thereabouts) as any in the country. The difference you see with City's youngsters is that they play in a better team and get more 'service' as opposed to what happens at United where our two have to create much of the openings on their own. Not to mention the general overload their team creates which means their players are always on the front foot and have far far lesser to do defensively.

For me, Martial is one who can genuinely be one of the best around. His all round is already at a superb level. Barring the odd bad game, I think he's one of our best players most games. His touch, intelligence, dribbling, finishing, athleticism etc. ensure that. I don't think he needs a huge improvement to reach the bracket the OP mentions. Rashford has a lower cieling from what I see but he can still be a top player (a level or two below elite). He is intelligent, scores goals, has decent delivery, good athleticism, boat loads of pace etc. Just because he doesn't have those 'elite' natural qualities that Martial does, that doesn't mean he can't be a great player in his own right.

These two are the future for me. And we have to get them to their potential as much as anything. They're assets of ours and us being successful will depend on them being as good as they can (as well as a lot of other factors of course).

Couldn't agree more. I'm totally happy with both of them.

Rashford is a bit out of form, which is part and parcel of football.

That's also why we need to get people like Ozil or Mahrez in to take off some of the creative burden off them. Should have been Mata and Mkhitaryan to be those players but they haven't been good enough. As a result we are depending more and more on Martial and Rashford to create from our wide. Obviously when they fall short as is normal for their age, they become easy targets

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Couldn't agree more. I'm totally happy with both of them.

Rashford is a bit out of form, which is part and parcel of football.

That's also why we need to get people like Ozil or Mahrez in to take off some of the creative burden off them. Should have been Mata and Mkhitaryan to be those players but they haven't been good enough. As a result we are depending more and more on Martial and Rashford to create from our wide. Obviously when they fall short as is normal for their age, they become easy targets

Absolutely. And you've hit the nail on the head with those two. In general, I feel our older players could be doing more whether it be in terms of impact or leadership/influence. We also could replace a few as with those two - especially Mkhitarian.

 

[DdeGoat]

According to stats on this site:

Rashford - 30 apps, 9 goals & 8 assists
Martial - 28 apps, 8 goals & 8 assists
Lingard - 24 apps, 9 goals & 5 assists

Those are excellent returns for young players at the half way point in a season. One of them is 20, another one is 22 & the third is late bloomer who is relatively inexperienced. We should be marveling at the fact that we have such talented young players amongst our ranks. Inconsistency in performance is to be expected at this stage of their careers. Consistency will come with time. We can already see it with Lingard who has shone over the last month with regular starts. He has almost doubled (From 5 to 9) his goal tally in 60% of the appearances (24 compared to ]42) he had last season.