Martial & Rashford's Potential

Superunknown

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It's great that
1) They're not competing with each other and only 1 plays
2)Not kept out of the team by Lukaku

Both have a real chance to push on this year, especially as they can rotate positions.
I feel that this is especially applicable for Martial. With our current squad, I imagine that he and Rashford will be starting every single game. That's enough time to build up some sort of rhythm and cohesion with each other.

What I'd like to see from both of them is more composure in front of goal and also for them to finish their chances. Martial in particular tends to hold on to the ball for far too long and then the chance is gone. It's going to be their most important season yet and will influence what we do in the transfer market next Summer.
 

Eoin McMahon

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Not always the case, take Liverpool as example. Firmino is their CF but Mane and Salah ends up in goal scoring positions. There are few more examples.

We are trying to play fluid game so most of the time Rashford and Martial will be changing positions. If Martial was limited player who just plays on the shoulder of the defenders then I agree, without goals he will be useless. But that's not the scenario we have, we have players who are good footballers than just goal scorers, they move all over the place and even drop deeper to involve in the build up play.

I agree that Rashford and Martial should be scoring lot more than their previous records but I don't agree with "If not 20 league goals, they should be moved on" point and that's the point I'm arguing against.

Also I disagree with 'at least 20+ goals part', only 3 players have scored 20 plus league goals without taking penalties, that itself shows how high the bar is.

I expect them to score many goals but the general point 'minimum 20 league goals' is just setting bar too high to end up in disappointment. If it's a pure #9 then yes, they should score goals as that's the only contribution they will make but someone like Martial and Rashford who are not pure 9s.
Yes Firmino is a CF who's main role for Lpool is to create space for Mane and Salah who are the main source of goals for them. Yes Firmino is the central forward in this case but Salah and Mane the players who are expected to score most I would consider Salah to be a right forward and Mane a left forward and that would still contribute to my point that the FORWARDS left,right or central are almost always barring in a few teams the players who are scoring the majority of goals for there team. If you needed another example of the CF role Firmino plays and this example will also help you understand the positions mentioned before.I can name the ST who I believe was the best to play the role of pulling defenders out, making space all while sacrificing you own goal output which for a striker is tough.
Karim Benzema was one of the players signed as part of the second wave of galacticos as one of the best young strikers in the world. He has spent almost his entire career playing a role that allows everyone but himself to get the spotlight. His work is hard notice at first but if watch the goals CR7 and Bale scored for Madrid with Benzema upfront you'll notice a pattern of goals where Ronaldo or Bale will get ball on the edge of the box or in a goal scoring area with a crazy amount of space to score or attempt to. At first it just looks like bad defending but as the pattern continues its finally clicks. Anyways it's personal opinion on what you consider this but I would be confident in saying that I think Ronaldo was a LF and Bale a RF. Hopefully this example helps.
 

roonster09

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Yes Firmino is a CF who's main role for Lpool is to create space for Mane and Salah who are the main source of goals for them. Yes Firmino is the central forward in this case but Salah and Mane the players who are expected to score most I would consider Salah to be a right forward and Mane a left forward and that would still contribute to my point that the FORWARDS left,right or central are almost always barring in a few teams the players who are scoring the majority of goals for there team. If you needed another example of the CF role Firmino plays and this example will also help you understand the positions mentioned before.I can name the ST who I believe was the best to play the role of pulling defenders out, making space all while sacrificing you own goal output which for a striker is tough.
Karim Benzema was one of the players signed as part of the second wave of galacticos as one of the best young strikers in the world. He has spent almost his entire career playing a role that allows everyone but himself to get the spotlight. His work is hard notice at first but if watch the goals CR7 and Bale scored for Madrid with Benzema upfront you'll notice a pattern of goals where Ronaldo or Bale will get ball on the edge of the box or in a goal scoring area with a crazy amount of space to score or attempt to. At first it just looks like bad defending but as the pattern continues its finally clicks. Anyways it's personal opinion on what you consider this but I would be confident in saying that I think Ronaldo was a LF and Bale a RF. Hopefully this example helps.
You are repeating more or less what I said. Playing CF doesn't mean chances will end up for him without knowing the role and style of play.

Martial won't play like Aguero, Kane, Lukaku where he will play as pure 9. He will swap positions and move to wings with Rashford playing as CF. We have already seen that, so it's one more different set up.

I wanted to give Benzema and Ronaldo example but that's just extreme one as it's a among the GOAT combination.
 
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Eoin McMahon

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You are repeating more or less what I said. Playing CF doesn't mean chances will end up for him without knowing the role and style of play.

Martial won't play like Aguero, Kane, Lukaku where he will play as pure 9. He will swap positions and move to wings with Rashford playing as CF. We have already seen that, so it's one more different set up.

I wanted to give Benzema and Ronaldo example but that's just extreme one as it's a among the GOAT combination.
Ok can we agree on one thing that the two of us have turned this into an argument rather than a debate. From our conversations I know you have a good knowledge of the game and like myself are stubborn to the last when trying to get our view across. So we'll try and work together to finish this efficiently
 

roonster09

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Ok can we agree on one thing that the two of us have turned this into an argument rather than a debate. From our conversations I know you have a good knowledge of the game and like myself are stubborn to the last when trying to get our view across. So we'll try and work together to finish this efficiently
Reading back I don't think our opinions differ that much either. Maybe somewhere the point was missed. Not a problem as long as everything is civil.

I think the initial point was about moving on Martial if he doesn't score 20 league goals. The point I made was the bar is ridiculously high for a player who don't take penalties and only 3 players in last 2 seasons and 7 players in last 5 seasons scored that.

Anyways let's move on.
 

Eoin McMahon

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You are repeating more or less what I said. Playing CF doesn't mean chances will end up for him without knowing the role and style of play.

Martial won't play like Aguero, Kane, Lukaku where he will play as pure 9. He will swap positions and move to wings with Rashford playing as CF. We have already seen that, so it's one more different set up.

I wanted to give Benzema and Ronaldo example but that's just extreme one as it's a among the GOAT combination.
After looking over our conversations from the start I can see where disagreement arose and hope now to set them straight.
Funnily enough in the quote I am replying to now where you are saying that I was repeating what you said about the whole CF- Firmino discussion you brought in more than halfway through our conversation is actually almost identical to the first reply I gave you on this thread."Repeating".
Moving on from that I think there's been one sticking point that is the cause of alot of this argument and its the 20+goals. I think the 20+ figure has either been loosely thrown about by me and taken very seriously by you. i see that when I was saying to aim for 20+ goals you were taking it as they must score 20+. goals. a misunderstanding that can now be put to bed.Finally I don't know where you got the idea that I think we should move on from Martial but forget about it all is forgiven.
 
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roonster09

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After looking over our conversations from the start I can see where disagreement arose and hope now to set them straight. Funnily enough in the quote I am replying to now where you are saying that I was repeating what you said about the whole CF- Firmino discussion you brought in more than halfway through our conversation is actually almost identical to the first reply I gave you on this thread."Repeating".
Moving on from that I think there's been one sticking point that is the cause of alot of this argument and its the 20+goals. I think the 20+ figure has either been loosely thrown about by me and taken very seriously by you. i see that when I was saying to aim for 20+ goals you were taking it as they must score 20+. goals. a misunderstanding that can now be put to bed.
Not on your posts or points, just in general when people throw away 20+ league goals loosely, sometimes I feel people underestimate how hard it is.

RVN was one of the best strikers we had and he never scored 20 league goals excluding penalties.
 

Volumiza

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Martial and Rashford have tons of potential! Let's just hope they prove it and become more ruthless strikers hell bent on outscoring each other!