Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

[lsd]

Interesting list of all Scorsese films. I personally would have of Shutter Island and Bringing out the Dead a lot higher but each to their own.

Does show he is a very versatile film maker

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-lists/martin-scorsese-movies-ranked-1234851610/

 

[FrankDrebin]

His poorest films for me are his Cape Fear remake, Gangs of New York, Shutter Island and his own take on The Departed.

 

[stevoc]

There's just been so many superhero movies. I really don't care anymore. These people online that cheer Marvel getting high box office results should really take a long hard look at their life and figure out a more meaningful and productive way to spend their money.

Besides, where do you go from magically blowing up half the universe

Blow up the other half.

 

[Sweet Square]

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“Frankly, I hate dialogue. Dialogue is for theatre and television. I don’t remember movies because of a good line, I remember movies because of a strong image. I’m not interested in dialogue at all. Pure image and sound, that is the power of cinema, but it is something not obvious when you watch movies today. Movies have been corrupted by television. In a perfect world, I’d make a compelling movie that doesn’t feel like an experiment but does not have a single word in it either. People would leave the cinema and say, ‘Wait, there was no dialogue?’ But they won’t feel the lack.”

.

 

[VorZakone]

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I intensely disagree. Good dialogue matters. I prefer Glengarry Glen Ross and 12 Angry Men over any of his movies.

 

[Scandi Red]

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I get where he's coming from and I agree to an extent (show don't tell etc), but I also think it depends on the film. There are films where good dialogue greatly elevates the experience.

 

[Idxomer]

He's right, it's why films went downhill after the 1920s.

 

[SalfordRed18]

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Completely disagree but in fairness, I can only remember like 1 line from dune 1 and that's a fantastic film.

But what he's saying is objectively wrong imo.

 

[The Corinthian]

I think his point is movies these days tend to be oversaturated with exposition (cough Nolan cough). Not sure if I agree with him per se, though.

 

[Prodigal7]

I think his point is movies these days tend to be oversaturated with exposition (cough Nolan cough). Not sure if I agree with him per se, though.

Nolan is heavily into imagery over dialogue. Look at Dunkirk for example. One of the most dialogue light movies ever made.

 

[Sweet Square]

Werner Herzog did say film is not the art of scholars, but of illiterates.

 

[Eric_the_Red99]

I intensely disagree. Good dialogue matters. I prefer Glengarry Glen Ross and 12 Angry Men over any of his movies.

12 Angry Men…which was first written for TV, then adapted for the stage, before finally being turned into a movie

 

[Scandi Red]

Nolan is heavily into imagery over dialogue. Look at Dunkirk for example. One of the most dialogue light movies ever made.

That is arguably the only exception (I haven't seen Insomnia) Nolan loves blasting the viewer in the face with dialogue.

 

[HTG]

Werner Herzog did say film is not the art of scholars, but of illiterates.

And that man is right 100% of the time, even if he is wrong.

 

[caid]

That perfect world film is called baraka. Cinema certainly has room for films like it but its a niche not a defining characteristic as theres dozens of great films that are nothing but dialgoue.

 

[Raoul]

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Surely he means streaming TV, since dialog has been on regular TV since it began.

 

[Prophet_of_Doom]

Music is also more important in creating feeling for cinema. Name me one person who has ever mentioned the soundtrack to a TV show and said it elevated the experience because it has literally never happened (exempting Badalamenti again).

Every single person who ever watched (and liked) The Leftovers. I counted.

 

[Vidyoyo]

The Leftovers

In my defence I've never seen it and I don't talk to people off the internet

 

[Oldyella]

Tbh I think they wanted to pivot away from the Kang stuff as it clearly wasn't working and majors stuff is their out.

I reckon with F4 out next year, dooms gonna be the big bad, pulling strings before secret wars.

As soon as their new big bad lost a fist fight with Ant man there was no coming back from that. Shame, love Kang.

More Doom hopefully as can never get enough Doom, but I hope he's not the pure bad guy we have seen in the past movies.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

In my defence, I've never seen it and I don't talk to people off the internet

Oh man you should. Even Villeneuve would like it.

Also I don't think anyone should take what he says (or anyone involved in the arts in general) literally, he's just making a point by illustrating something to the extreme. And the underlying idea of what he's saying makes sense.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Oh man you should. Even Villeneuve would like it.

Also I don't think anyone should take what he says (or anyone involved in the arts in general) literally, he's just making a point by illustrating something to the extreme. And the underlying idea of what he's saying makes sense.

Yeah I had a look at some reviews after I posted that earlier and it does look really interesting. I think I'll give it a go

 

[Bebe]

Oh man you should. Even Villeneuve would like it.

Also I don't think anyone should take what he says (or anyone involved in the arts in general) literally, he's just making a point by illustrating something to the extreme. And the underlying idea of what he's saying makes sense.

True, although I don't find it helps anyone's point to jump to the extreme the way he did. You're right that it shouldn't be taken literally, but he's certainly phrasing it that way. He even goes into a literal description. If people take what he said beyond the underlying point and use it as a stick to beat him with, I think that's on him.

I also don't think film is in a place where we need to heavily criticize dialogue given that most moviegoers these days have an avalanche of CGI and deafening explosions shoved in their face. The industry is hardly too dialogue-heavy at the moment imo. I think films chasing visual spectacle is a bigger issue today than any undue emphasis on dialogue.

 

[Sweet Square]

And that man is right 100% of the time, even if he is wrong.

Very true.

 

[Sweet Square]

William Friedkin mentioned in a interview he once watched The Exorcist in a Indonesian village cinema. The cinema didn’t have available a subtitled version so every 15 minutes a usher would stop the film and explain to the audience what was happening.

Friedkin decided his next film would have to be more accessible without so much use of dialogue. He made Sorcerer.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

William Friedkin mentioned in a interview he once watched The Exorcist in a Indonesian village cinema. The cinema didn’t have available a subtitled version so every 15 minutes a usher would stop the film and explain to the audience what was happening.

Friedkin decided his next film would have to be more accessible without so much use of dialogue. He made Sorcerer.

That checks out. When I lived in Prague, the Czechs had bootlegged videos of American movies. The movies would be dubbed into German with the volume kind of low, and a Czech male would intone over everything what was happening, male and female dialogue. It was very weird.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Vidyoyo said:
Music is also more important in creating feeling for cinema. Name me one person who has ever mentioned the soundtrack to a TV show and said it elevated the experience because it has literally never happened (exempting Badalamenti again).

Twin Peaks.
[time passes]
I thought I had the perfect counter to your argument, but turns out Angelo Badalamenti did the Twin Peaks music. Curse you, Vidyoyo!

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

His poorest films for me are his Cape Fear remake, Gangs of New York, Shutter Island and his own take on The Departed.

Age of Innocence, Casino, Bringing Out the Dead, The Aviator, Hugo, Wolf of Wall Street, Flower Killers on the Moon, were also pretty weak. Maybe if they had been made by someone else without his previous heights, they would appear to be better than they are. I personally don't care for his work after Goodfellas (1990). I think combination of Paul Schrader's scripts and mountains of cocaine brought out his best work.

 

[One Night Only]

@Vidyoyo ... Westworld.

 

[Sweet Square]

That checks out. When I lived in Prague, the Czechs had bootlegged videos of American movies. The movies would be dubbed into German with the volume kind of low, and a Czech male would intone over everything what was happening, male and female dialogue. It was very weird.

That’s amazing. Sound like it would be very a strange experience.

There’s been a few films I’ve watched without subtitles. It’s a interesting watch to just like the scenes happened and to see if it’s possible to get the story without understanding what the characters are saying.

 

[lsd]

That is arguably the only exception (I haven't seen Insomnia) Nolan loves blasting the viewer in the face with dialogue.

He just doesn't like you being able to hear what they are saying though

 

[CoopersDream]

@Vidyoyo ... Westworld.

Unfortunately the music couldn't save the absolute trainwreck that was season three and four.

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It is a bit weird of a take since there have been great movies with and without great dialogue since before television became common.

It's good though that different directors focuses on different aspects of filmmaking. We need directors that focuses on the visual aspects just as much as we those who focuses on dialogue.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Interesting list of all Scorsese films. I personally would have of Shutter Island and Bringing out the Dead a lot higher but each to their own.

Does show he is a very versatile film maker

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-lists/martin-scorsese-movies-ranked-1234851610/

The Irishman and Killers are far too high. Shutter Island and Wolf of Wall Street are far too low. Gangs of New York too.

 

[CoopersDream]

Interesting list of all Scorsese films. I personally would have of Shutter Island and Bringing out the Dead a lot higher but each to their own.

Does show he is a very versatile film maker

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-lists/martin-scorsese-movies-ranked-1234851610/

While it's always interesting to see lists this also shows I shouldn't listen to Rolling Stone when it comes to movies. Never seen a list so not in line with my own.

 

[kafta]

The Departed is his worst for me. The original is miles better.

He's made so many great films, my favorites in no particular order would be: taxi driver, the king of comedy, the age on innocence, mean streets & raging bull.

 

[One Night Only]

Unfortunately the music couldn't save the absolute trainwreck that was season three and four.

Yeah, they fecked up massively. Season 1 is some of the best TV ever imo, was brilliant.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Yeah I had a look at some reviews after I posted that earlier and it does look really interesting. I think I'll give it a go

It's a really great show, one of the best of the past 15 years for me. There's a thread dedicated to it, you'll see we're all kinda weirdos in our devotion to it in there

True, although I don't find it helps anyone's point to jump to the extreme the way he did. You're right that it shouldn't be taken literally, but he's certainly phrasing it that way. He even goes into a literal description. If people take what he said beyond the underlying point and use it as a stick to beat him with, I think that's on him.

I guess - I think there's also a level of trust that people will understanding the overarching point he's trying to make. If people resort to act outraged and ridiculing the position, so be it, but I think that's missing an interesting point he's making.

Age of Innocence, Casino, Bringing Out the Dead, The Aviator, Hugo, Wolf of Wall Street, Flower Killers on the Moon, were also pretty weak. Maybe if they had been made by someone else without his previous heights, they would appear to be better than they are. I personally don't care for his work after Goodfellas (1990). I think combination of Paul Schrader's scripts and mountains of cocaine brought out his best work.

Weak is being particularly harsh with some of those films. Probably not to your taste, but "weak" is a bit extreme in my view - I'd agree with Bringing out the dead (I often forget he made it) which is a bit of a pointless endeavour, but I can see some merit in all the other ones (even though there's a couple I'm not a big fan of).

 

[Welsh Wonder]

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[Rooney in Paris]

He's so cute

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Weak is being particularly harsh with some of those films. Probably not to your taste, but "weak" is a bit extreme in my view - I'd agree with Bringing out the dead (I often forget he made it) which is a bit of a pointless endeavour, but I can see some merit in all the other ones (even though there's a couple I'm not a big fan of).

Yeah, "weak" can't do all the work I wanted it to do. For those films (Age of Innocence, Casino, Bringing Out the Dead, The Aviator, Hugo, Wolf of Wall Street, Flower Killers on the Moon) I felt he was either trying very hard to be anti-Scorsese or he was leaning to hard into Scorsese mythos.
• Age Of Innocence was very boring in my view. Winona did not and does have the chops and had no on screen chemistry with her co-stars. Winona was a doe-eyed waif and trying to make her a dumb virgin losing DDL's affections to Michelle Pfeiffer just was weird. Trying to make a drama about manners just wasn't a good fit. I saw it so long ago, maybe I'd like it more now, but at the time it felt bloodless. I know it's a faithful adaption of a novel I didn't read, but I didn't like it.
• Casino was unnecessary and just made me want to watch Goodfellas for an additional time, and it felt like someone making a Scorsese knock-off.
• Bringing Out The Dead. I love Nicolas Cage and this should have been a really eerie, gripping, dive into madness. I know the purposeful way the scenes echoed Frank's hallucinations and his inability to sort reality and days was intentional but it felt like it started at a certain emotional pitch and never went anywhere. Cage was probably miscast, too.
• The Aviator. I found DiCaprio's performance wooden, the movie rushed, the CGI laughable. Bio-pics are hard.
• Hugo was half infatuation with silent movie tropes and half stupid kids movie (remember Sacho Baron Cohen?). The 3D element was such a gimmick and half the time the movie didn't use it all. If anything, it should only have been 3D when Hugo was inside the clock. It was a boring, pointless film.
• Wolf Of Wall Street rankled. I hated it. I hated the characters, and the fact they were based on real people blurred the line (was there even a line?) between "look at what we got away with" and a chronicle of the times. Wall Street, Bright Lights Big City, and even American Psycho did a better job of ridiculing those days, and touches like diCaprio's car changing colors during narration were total wankery. I think if you set up repugnant characters like Hill and DiCaprio in a film like this, you want some sort of day of judgment, and these feckers didn't get it. If it would have ended with all of those people shot to pieces or leaping from high buildings, I would have liked it more.
• Finally, Killers of the Flower Moon: in my opinion it needed an editor to come and turn it into a 2-hour movie. It did not support the 3 1/2 hour run time because it was so repetitive, slow, and lacked any momentum. I also thought DiCaprio was terrible in it, and the cavalcade of gnarled, grizzled cowboy characters DiCaprio kept contracting with made his portrayal look even more ridiculous than it would have otherwise been.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Interesting list of all Scorsese films. I personally would have of Shutter Island and Bringing out the Dead a lot higher but each to their own.

Does show he is a very versatile film maker

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-lists/martin-scorsese-movies-ranked-1234851610/

The Irishman and Killers are far too high. Shutter Island and Wolf of Wall Street are far too low. Gangs of New York too.

While it's always interesting to see lists this also shows I shouldn't listen to Rolling Stone when it comes to movies. Never seen a list so not in line with my own.

This list made me realize I haven't seen a lot of his movies. But I agree Irishman and Killers are way, way, way too high. Shutter Island should be about middle of the pack, and Gangs a little above it. Their critiques of the films was pretty spot on, just the final rankings were weird. I'd personally go
Taxi Driver
Goodfellas
Raging Bull
After Hours
The Departed
as his top 5.