Wasn't the idea that we feck him out of the club and forget he ever played for us. Why is this thread always at the top? (I realise the irony of this post keeping the thread up). Let's please all move on!
Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic
- Thread starter keithsingleton
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The club were planning the opposite - to keep and reintegrate him. They're probably still planning on doing that and just sent him on loan to let him get match fit and score goals, at which point they will probably reassess. If he's very good in Spain there's a good chance they bring him back at season's end. Just a guess on my part based on what the club have already attempted a few weeks ago.
Everything the club has written leaves room to bring him back, or at least to credibly look like we might in order to obtain a large transfer fee for him. If we give the impression of distressed sellers next summer, no one is going to pay a large sum for him, why would they?
I don't know what problem people have with "public opinion".
Do these individuals not realise that they are part of the public? That public opinion contains their opinion? That public opinion is an amalgamation of all of the individual opinions?
Football clubs make their money from public opinion, supporting a club is an opinion, in your opinion it's worth spending £600 on a season ticket. Or in your opinion, it's not. In your opinion £100 for a kit for your niece is worth it or, in your opinion it's not. Either in your opinion it's worth seeing that Snapdragon logo on the front of our kit twice a week, or it's not and you never realise that they are probably manufacturing your next phones cpu.
How could an organization, which is an entertainment business, not be swayed by public opinion?
Or is it that these posters believe that only their own opinions should count?
Even the public who aren't Manchester United fans have opinions that matter. It's those people who will be singing the chants that will be picked up live TV, it's those people who will bring up Greenwood every time we do anything good or have a moral outrage for any other thing.
There would literally be no Manchester United if there was no public opinion about them.
Do these individuals not realise that they are part of the public? That public opinion contains their opinion? That public opinion is an amalgamation of all of the individual opinions?
Football clubs make their money from public opinion, supporting a club is an opinion, in your opinion it's worth spending £600 on a season ticket. Or in your opinion, it's not. In your opinion £100 for a kit for your niece is worth it or, in your opinion it's not. Either in your opinion it's worth seeing that Snapdragon logo on the front of our kit twice a week, or it's not and you never realise that they are probably manufacturing your next phones cpu.
How could an organization, which is an entertainment business, not be swayed by public opinion?
Or is it that these posters believe that only their own opinions should count?
Even the public who aren't Manchester United fans have opinions that matter. It's those people who will be singing the chants that will be picked up live TV, it's those people who will bring up Greenwood every time we do anything good or have a moral outrage for any other thing.
There would literally be no Manchester United if there was no public opinion about them.
The problem some people have with “public opinion” is that there is a silent majority who are not as vocal as some others. The most vocal on social media might not be representative of the majority opinion. So trial by social media and public opinion is not a good way to run a club and certainly not a good way to judge a situation as sensitive or emotive as the greenwood one.
Anyway i hope he does well in Spain and gets his career back on track.
Everybody has the same access to express your opinion. You're doing it right here, and we know that people from the club and from the media read this forum, so how is your opinion silent?
If someone's opinion is silent, it's because they choose to keep it silent. And if they choose to keep their opinion silent, it's because they do not want their opinion to have an impact. If they did want their opinion to have an impact, there are many, many places they can express their opinion, from engaging on Twitter to sending a handwritten letter directly to Richard Arnold.
There is no silent majority, just a not silent minority who are annoyed that their opinion isn't in the majority.
It is very easy to express outrage loudly and join the mob when there is a target - a perpetrator - and a victim (all allegedly and I express no opinion on this).
It is less easy to express any opinion which can be interpreted as condoning the actions that were alleged. Some people will interpret almost anything in that way and will amplify the outrage accordingly.
It’s not possible to debate this case, the facts (whatever they really are) and the associated issues in public in any useful way. That’s the problem with “public opinion” - you only get to see it through a distorted window.
Presumably he's talking about people who aren't on social media (or on this forum, for example).
Yeah I know, but they probably didn't expect such a rush.Wtf
Hence I said write a letter.
That's not true, many people have given their opinion in this thread and the Anthony thread, the difference being in this thread a lot of people wanted to disregard the audio to have their opinion and others called them out for it.
As I've mentioned many many times in this thread, opinions are always decided on the balance of probabilities. We also decide those probabilities and debate them in a public forum, hence the discussion about the evidence, however if someone wilfully ignores evidence, yes, there will be outrage with that.
Club needs to have a word with itself, knew loaning him out to a team with that name would blow up in their faces.
You’re really just proving my point there.
Also the fact that public opinion is almost always based on insufficient evidence, and is by definition a very powerful force driven mostly by herd mentality
Quite looking forward to see how he gets on this weekend. Hope he smashes it to be honest purely form a footballing perspective as he’s a wonderful player to watch.
Yeah you know that’s not what I was getting at.
Wonder if he'll be hyper motivated, he'll be playing for his career
I don't see how that could happen. The furore around him coming back in to the team would surface again and it would cause the club to be an even bigger laughing stock than it is now. Greenwood will never play here again and nor should he.
The thing is how do you accurately "measure" public opinion? In this day an age, it's just whoever shouts loudest.
I'm 80-90% certain if Greenwood came back to Manchester United at the start of next season, he'd be welcomed by match going fans, especially if he did well.
In the social media age, there is a huge body of people who are afraid to express their opinion, on fear of being attacked for it.
Look at most of the anonymous comments sections in most of the press. Apart from the Guardian, most people posting anonmyous comments are in support of a second chance. You might not agree with them, but they're a large part of the football crowds. Just look at how common domestic violence in the UK is, there is a silent undercurrent of acceptance for it.
Public opinion is slightly different. It's trial by public when there is no sufficient evidence to at least rules out rational probability.
As in she says vs he says with both withholding evidence until it's released in the court proceedings. This is trial by public when based on either he says or she says the public condemn a person. Example is Antony, where no solid evidence that can point in either direction. These kinds of incidents merits an innocence until proven guilty
Mason case on the other hand, we already seen enough evidence to beyond reasonable doubt accept that Mason is guilty. When I say reasonable is common sense, not mental gymnastics such as doctored evidence or explanations that goes beyond common sense like roleplay
If Antony case has taught us something is that evidence and accusations are hard to fabricate, let alone using doctored or photoshop. It's very easy to debunk when the evidence is false.
Mason is not trial by public perception. It's as simple case as it is. Any other explanation or defence will be up to Mason to provide, which he hasnt been able to produce up to this time. Hence the public rightly decided he did what he's accused off. Anyone who has watched enough hollywood court procedural would tell you that all testimony would be cross examined, including the timing of the incident, the doctor report, where you were during the alleged incident, and there would be all kinds of evidence to proof if you're lying or making up things. It's not as simple as providing pictures of a bloody nose and yell he did it. There would be cross examination, setting the facts right, and at any time either one of them is lying or showing discrepancies the case could be over before it begin. The burden of proof in actual court is quite high compared to simply providing evidence. You have to actually back them up real good.
So the two incidents are different, and rightly have different outcome.
As in she says vs he says with both withholding evidence until it's released in the court proceedings. This is trial by public when based on either he says or she says the public condemn a person. Example is Antony, where no solid evidence that can point in either direction. These kinds of incidents merits an innocence until proven guilty
Mason case on the other hand, we already seen enough evidence to beyond reasonable doubt accept that Mason is guilty. When I say reasonable is common sense, not mental gymnastics such as doctored evidence or explanations that goes beyond common sense like roleplay
If Antony case has taught us something is that evidence and accusations are hard to fabricate, let alone using doctored or photoshop. It's very easy to debunk when the evidence is false.
Mason is not trial by public perception. It's as simple case as it is. Any other explanation or defence will be up to Mason to provide, which he hasnt been able to produce up to this time. Hence the public rightly decided he did what he's accused off. Anyone who has watched enough hollywood court procedural would tell you that all testimony would be cross examined, including the timing of the incident, the doctor report, where you were during the alleged incident, and there would be all kinds of evidence to proof if you're lying or making up things. It's not as simple as providing pictures of a bloody nose and yell he did it. There would be cross examination, setting the facts right, and at any time either one of them is lying or showing discrepancies the case could be over before it begin. The burden of proof in actual court is quite high compared to simply providing evidence. You have to actually back them up real good.
So the two incidents are different, and rightly have different outcome.
100% agree with that. The only concern will be the away grounds/opposition fans. But I suspect that the Greenwood/club will give the other side of the story (which they never had the opportunity to this summer) before re-integrating him.
But then again, he may really like the Getefe experience and decide to play at lower-profile clubs, abroad.
Oppo fans are going to give him pelters forever. I suspect they will in Spain too if he starts scoring against them.
Greenwood would not be welcomed by home fans. There would be protests.
I wouldn't be so sure, we've seen what's happening to Maguire, and our opposition fans are going to be far worse than the Scotland fans, and I can't see that many fans trying to defend the 2nd chance.
They can give Greenwood a 2nd chance, but defending that 2nd chance against that audio? Can't see many fans wanting to do that
Given that I'm yet to meet one matchgoing Manchester United fan that isn't appalled by the fact that we considered bringing him back, frankly most I speak to are annoyed by the fact that he's only been loaned out rather than sold, or given a free transfer. And some of those people have some pretty wildly controversial opinions at times that they don't mind sharing so if they thought bringing Greenwood was an option I don't get the impression they'd whisper it. So I'd say you are wildly incorrect here.
Are you a matchgoer? I'm intrigued to hear what makes you so sure matchgoers would welcome him back. Have you spoke to those around you?
Feels like lots of repetition in this thread (which I totally get). Does it not make sense to have another thread solely related to the Getafe loan, performances etc? This one can still stay open for the murky stuff. I’d post the other myself but feels like any new threads related to MG should be mod led.
This thread brings out the worst of people on here...and the misogynists
Short of the admins here banning all discussion about him like they did before, you really thought people would just "forget" about one of the club's most promising players moving elsewhere? Pogba left the club under better circumstances and the thread about is still active. I expect this thread to be more active depending on his performance once he starts playing.
Sadly you are a little wrong there.
It brings out the truth in people, some people who would gladly condemn domestic abuse start doing mental gymnastics to make it palatable if the abuser can benefit them in even the most minuscule of ways such as that abuser having a great left foot and being able to score a few goals for the team they support.
This will invite some posts from the "What should the multi millionaire do just go and work in McDonalds???" crowd but I hope they know I won't respond because they are very transparent, very boring and they have been endlessly shown up over 100s of pages across 2 large threads.
This is about his performance on loan, but he hasn't played, so we are speculating if he's going to come back if he performs well and if he would be welcomed back
Agreed. It does seem obvious to me too, but it’s just about plausibly deniable, and therein lies the problem.
Who cares about Oppo fans?
Ronaldo was villian no.1 after Rooney world cup incident and we almost sold him.
And next 2 years he became best in the world.
That's cause Ferguson stood with him and made the club too.
I understand that but it's just so repetitive. I'm sure I speak for others that just want to hear about the football stuff. We've done the moral debate at length. I'm not trying to censor or stop that type of discussion; it really matters and there's more wisdom to gleam through debate and awareness on domestic abuse etc. But for those of us who just want to see the football news and new developments at Getafe, it'd be good to have an alternative thread not related to Mason's indiscretions. I'm not saying that the football player can be separated by the man. I personally will never see him without this colouring my perceptions of him, even though I do think some form of rehabilitation is possible. However, I come to this thread with interest in his on the pitch career and 95% of the discussion is still about what he's done off it.
I see this as a broader commentary on anglo and English culture these days where cancel culture definitely exists and there is no path to forgiveness, rehabilitation etc. People are just deemed as monsters and socially unacceptable at some point and they can never ever recover from that.
Happy to see him getting a heroes welcome in Getafe and moving on.
Regardless of what happened, he was found innocent, the girl is now his wife and childs mother but more importantly some kind of forgiveness and rehabilitation needs to exist.
The anglo culture today has got it wrong. Forgiveness needs to exist.
He will probably never be able to be treated as a normal person in England because the culture just doesnt know how to deal with a person that went through something like he did. Not now. Not in 15 or 30 years, nothing will ever be enough because there is no forgiveness, he is cancelled and deemed unacceptable forever.
Happy to see him getting a heroes welcome in Getafe and moving on.
Regardless of what happened, he was found innocent, the girl is now his wife and childs mother but more importantly some kind of forgiveness and rehabilitation needs to exist.
The anglo culture today has got it wrong. Forgiveness needs to exist.
He will probably never be able to be treated as a normal person in England because the culture just doesnt know how to deal with a person that went through something like he did. Not now. Not in 15 or 30 years, nothing will ever be enough because there is no forgiveness, he is cancelled and deemed unacceptable forever.
You hit the nail on the head. In many ways it’s an indictment of the times that we live in, where abuse is hyper-normalised and all it takes to correct it is a happy family photo of Greenwood, his wife and child.
It's just a gut feeling I have. The people you've spoken too might well be people you know, so might be like minded people? It might be me under-estimating the strength of opinion in the general public. This was my whole point originally - it's hard to really know public opinion until you test it.
I’m of the opinion that he shouldn’t be near United again. However im curious at what level he can be at after so long not playing or training
I would argue things are relatively “better” now in terms of conversations and consequences about/regarding abuse and abusers.
I mean, Graham Rix did prison time for sex with a minor, got reinstated at Chelsea and became first team-coach.
Greenwood would have had a path to reintegration with less resistance had this happened like 10-15 years ago.
Do you really think Ronaldo getting Rooney sent off is a sensible comparison with what Greenwood did?
I was talking to a couple in Greece about this last night, they thought nothing of it, his girlfriend was also very relaxed about it, said she thought it was overblown. Same with media in Greece. I get the feeling it's like this in Spain too with the Getafe example?
Are the main reactions coming from the UK where woke/political correctness is more present in society, I wonder.
Are the main reactions coming from the UK where woke/political correctness is more present in society, I wonder.