Matic dropping into defence

Mcking

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When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?
 
This is a normal tactical move with 4-2-3-1. The central defenders split out to the sides towards the full backs, and the CDM falls back so you effectivly have a back three. The splitting of central defenders is why it is so important to have a left footed central defender in the DCL position. In addition, if you looked closely in the first half, you will see that when Telles was bombing on in the first half, it was Matic that was dropping down to the left fullback position. Basically Matic is dropping back to allow the fullbacks to be more attacking.

Matic was our best outfield player today. The only CDM we have that positions himself properly. We really need a younger, more mobile version of Matic. Caicedes looks very promising.
 
I think the way Fred operates it’s fairly similar in that he often drops into a sort of LCB position when we play out from defence too.
 
Holters said:
This is a normal tactical move with 4-2-3-1. The central defenders split out to the sides towards the full backs, and the CDM falls back so you effectivly have a back three. in addition, if you looked closely in the first half, you will see that when Telles was bombing on in the first half, it was Matic that was dropping down to the left fullback position. Basically Matic is dropping back to allow the fullbacks to be more attacking.

Matic was our best outfield player today. The only CDM we have that positions himself properly. We really need a younger, more mobile version of Matic. Caicedes looks very promising.
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I don't think the issue is matic so much, but with Bruno so high, matic so deep, you're left with pogba on his own.
 
Don't think it in itself is an issue and not uncommon with the logic being that the full back can push on more but also it opens up Matic to see if he can pick a pass as he'll have more time and has got a good range. Defensively I thought that worked well today and I think the issue again is that the attack just isn't clicking particularly well at the moment.

Telles/Rashford don't seem to gel well as neither want to run with the ball (compared to Shaw/Rashford), AWB as we know isn't great in attacking areas and then I think our main attackers don't show enough movement/care in tight spaces. Too many players want ball to feet etc. It's been a recurring issue for a while now and it's frustrating as the talent is there just need to get it out of them more.
 
I thought he had a pretty good game today. There was one moment, I think it was right before the Rashford offside/bad touch chance in the first half, he picked the ball up and carried it out of defence, really cleverly beat the press.
 
arnie_ni said:
I don't think the issue is matic so much, but with Bruno so high, matic so deep, you're left with pogba on his own.
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Who was being marked by the two Wolves forwards and he never tried to find space to receive the ball.
 
Ole seems to have two preferred midfields - this one, with Pogba given licence to do what he wants and Matic protecting the defence, or becoming an extra defender when needed, or Fred and McTominay as a more traditional, energetic midfield two.
 
It makes cover for his defenders to spread more on the pitch and have more options to pass.

I would not trust that defense if I was Nemanja at all, glad he was backing into the line at times.
 
Don't have an issue with this, it gives the full-backs freedom to move forward, but in games when teams sit back, I don't think it's as necessary.
 
It makes sense if we play him. He has no legs to run up and down anymore.

But, his passing range is still good so he could pass between the lines easily.
 
Holters said:
This is a normal tactical move with 4-2-3-1. The central defenders split out to the sides towards the full backs, and the CDM falls back so you effectivly have a back three. The splitting of central defenders is why it is so important to have a left footed central defender in the DCL position. In addition, if you looked closely in the first half, you will see that when Telles was bombing on in the first half, it was Matic that was dropping down to the left fullback position. Basically Matic is dropping back to allow the fullbacks to be more attacking.

Matic was our best outfield player today. The only CDM we have that positions himself properly. We really need a younger, more mobile version of Matic. Caicedes looks very promising.
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I understand the logic behind a midfielder dropping into defence to allow the full backs to get forward, but not sure he should be doing that in a two-man midfield. Even if he has to do it, he should be in the middle, not the left. By doing so, he'd be able to push up back into midfield without having to move so far across.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
He dropped all first half into left back so Telles could go play left wing, clearly a tactic.

Second half was normal Matic, he drops in but not to the degree of the first 45.
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He was doing it even before Telles. When Fred plays, he's almost always in the middle, and further forward.
 
arnie_ni said:
I don't think the issue is matic so much, but with Bruno so high, matic so deep, you're left with pogba on his own.
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I agree. I don't think the problem is even Bruno being so high, but rather the wingers being high. Our midfielders need more support. we don't have a xabi alonso, schweinsteiger or kroos on our team, so can't afford to simply expect consistently precise passes from deep midfield to the attack. Bruno's attacking output on his own means he should be allowed a free role offensively, but I don't see the attacking advantage our wide forwards have that forces us to keep them that high up the pitch. what we are playing now is a 4213, we need to actually start looking more like a 4411 in my opinion.
 
Mcking said:
I understand the logic behind a midfielder dropping into defence to allow the full backs to get forward, but not sure he should be doing that in a two-man midfield. Even if he has to do it, he should be in the middle, not the left. By doing so, he'd be able to push up back into midfield without having to move so far across.
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But he always goes left when Telles plays, so it’s clearly a tactic that we’ll go three and he’ll be the left of the 3 with Maguire in the middle.
When Shaw plays he doesn’t do it.

It’s clearly tactical, how can you say otherwise?
 
Mcking said:
When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?
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I made the exact same observation in the post match thread. The difference in partnership between Matic/Pogba and McFred is night and day. They are hardly ever anywhere near each other and it throws our team off badly.
 
RepardReece said:
Don't have an issue with this, it gives the full-backs freedom to move forward, but in games when teams sit back, I don't think it's as necessary.
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The problem with it is that we play without a midfield. You have Pogba in the middle surrounded by about three players, effectively taking him out of the game.
 
The shape with this midfield has looked disjointed since last season.

I'm surprised why Ole never tries Fred with either Pogba or Matic.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
He dropped all first half into left back so Telles could go play left wing, clearly a tactic.

Second half was normal Matic, he drops in but not to the degree of the first 45.
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Yes, if he drops in he should be replaced by the left back tucking in. I felt this tactic didn't work so well because of Wolves' superb defensive organisation; whether it was Matic or Telles in there they sprung their trap well through the middle, but it has in the past with Shaw tucking in to give us an extra man a few times last season.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
No, he doesn’t go LCB constantly when Telles aint playing, he wasn’t even doing it the same in the 2nd half, at all.
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I'm not talking about this game specifically. Wolves weren't pressing as effectively as they were in the early parts of the game, which left more space in the middle. Makes me think that he tries to avoid the midfield pressure by moving away from midfield altogether.
 
Mcking said:
When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?
Click to expand...

This is the basic Ajax system and the way Ajax have been playing for decades. The 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 transitions into a 3-3-1-3 in possession. Ideally it allows a series of passing triangles to be created across the pitch, which should let the ball flow to and from the #10.
 
Mcking said:
I've seen him do it consistently in many games without Telles.
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Not to LCB you haven’t, nothing like when he plays with Telles.
With Telles it’s so fecking obvious because the second we have the ball, Telles goes directly to left wing and Matic instantly goes LB.
Maguire doesn’t even think about shifting over, cause it’s a clear fuxking tactic man.
 
He was decent tonight, but agree that him dropping so deep into defence is an issue at it isolates whoever is partnering him.

The need for a top level DM is massive.
 
Hojbjerg does it for Spurs too. Until recently they were doing well so it was interesting to see. Obviously they've fallen off now
 
Most top teams do this. Full-backs will push forwards and then the DM will usually drop back to provide another way to build up from the back, while providing some defensive security if you lose possession.

Honestly, watch a lot of possession-based sides, it's literally a normal occurrence. Leeds do the same with Phillips and push their full-backs on, Liverpool with Henderson etc. It's supposed to help teams play out from the back and I actually like him doing it.
 
It’s clearly tactical but I think because Bruno plays so high it leaves a massive hole in the midfield next to Pogba.
 
#07 said:
This is the basic Ajax system and the way Ajax have been playing for decades. The 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 transitions into a 3-3-1-3 in possession. Ideally it allows a series of passing triangles to be created across the pitch, which should let the ball flow to and from the #10.
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We transition more into what looks like a 3-1-6 formation. The two midfielders are supposed to play as a pair. When he moves to the left side of defence, he leaves about 25 yards between himself and a heavily marked Pogba.

How are our midfielders supposed to combine when there's that much space between them, and how is the midfield going to work when then midfielder's cannot combine?

The idea could be Ajax, but in reality, it's lacking.
 
I saw Fred do it in the match before the one vs wolves.
 
Mcking said:
We transition more into what looks like a 3-1-6 formation. The two midfielders are supposed to play as a pair. When he moves to the left side of defence, he leaves about 25 yards between himself and a heavily marked Pogba.

How are our midfielders supposed to combine when there's that much space between them, and how is the midfield going to work when then midfielder's cannot combine?

The idea could be Ajax, but in reality, it's lacking.
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Well, we're not as good at it as Ajax and most of our players are less able at one touch football. However, it's what Ole wants to do. Personally I would prefer us not to play out from the back at all cos we are not press resistant. However, it's what Ole wants to move the team towards and we won't get better at it without trying.
 
Gerald G said:
Most top teams do this. Full-backs will push forwards and then the DM will usually drop back to provide another way to build up from the back, while providing some defensive security if you lose possession.

Honestly, watch a lot of possession-based sides, it's literally a normal occurrence. Leeds do the same with Phillips and push their full-backs on, Liverpool with Henderson etc. It's supposed to help teams play out from the back and I actually like him doing it.
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Most top teams don't play the system we do. Liverpool play with three, so when one CM drops, there's still two in the middle. Phillips plays solo, so he is almost always in the middle even when deep.

How does Matic dropping help the team when it effectively eliminates the middle and isolates his midfield partner meaning every pass in the build-up has to go wide. When Fred and McTominay play, they don't spend most of the game playing center back.
 
Mcking said:
We transition more into what looks like a 3-1-6 formation. The two midfielders are supposed to play as a pair. When he moves to the left side of defence, he leaves about 25 yards between himself and a heavily marked Pogba.

How are our midfielders supposed to combine when there's that much space between them, and how is the midfield going to work when then midfielder's cannot combine?

The idea could be Ajax, but in reality, it's lacking.
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Pogba might be heavily marked, but Ole isn’t trying to play through CM.

Ole is using this tactic to get 2 on 1 with Rashford, Telles vs their RB.
We did this lots, but then did feck all with it.
It also meant we got a shit load of ball high up on that left which should have given them lots of opportunity to play combinations with Bruno, but a combination of us being woeful and Wolves excellent defensively meant it didn’t work. Hence why they changed it second half and managed to get Pogba higher up the pitch with Shaw often staying back in the build up.
 
Bwuk said:
It’s clearly tactical but I think because Bruno plays so high it leaves a massive hole in the midfield next to Pogba.
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That's why we got better in the 2nd half when we had one of the attacking players come deeper, whether it was Rashford on the flanks or Bruno centrally/on the flanks.

That 4-1-4-1 attacking formation actually got the best out of Pogba and created more space for him, especially when Wolves tried to press us when the ball was in the flanks.
 
When Matic plays, he becomes the Left back , allowing Shaw/Rashford(or Martial) to overload on the left hand side. When the opposition team attacks down the middle, since Matic has left a vacant space, Shaw will always move the Center. Its a fair tactic, cause I feel Shaw is one of the best players with his ball on his feet in this united squad.
 
Mcking said:
Most top teams don't play the system we do. Liverpool play with three, so when one CM drops, there's still two in the middle. Phillips plays solo, so he is almost always in the middle even when deep.

How does Matic dropping help the team when it effectively eliminates the middle and isolates his midfield partner meaning every pass in the build-up has to go wide. When Fred and McTominay play, they don't spend most of the game playing center back.
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Yes, but we push our full-backs wide and usually your number 10 would drop a bit. Most top teams may not play the system we play, but in theory it's still the same principles. The majority of DM's for most teams will drop alongside the CB's when the full-backs are pushed forward to receive the ball.
 
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