Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

Raul Madrid

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I really don't understand why people are desperate to make excuses for Messi when he really doesn't need them. Where does this idea come from that he needs to play in a team at the very top of its game to be successful, and if he doesn't then he can fail and be exempt from criticism? It's as if people think that every great player has played in a team that was consistently at the top of its game in every tournament they played. Do people really think that Brazil in '58, Germany in '74, Argentina in '86 or even a team like France in 2006 were all-conquering with every player at the top of their game and playing brilliant football? Without Pelé in '58 it's entirely conceivable that they could have failed to get past Wales in a tough quarter final never mind the rest of the tournament. Have a look at the state of the pitch that Germany in '74 played in when they came up against Poland in what was essentially the semi-final. It's simply impossible to play at your very best in those conditions and if they had lost that game against a strong Polish team it would have been Poland in the final and not them. Argentina in '86 even with Maradona's moments of genius v England were inches away from taking the game to extra time and every game was a struggle, which is what made Maradona's performances all the more impressive. Zidane dragged them through the knockout stages in 2006 and knitted that team together incredibly well despite their obvious flaws.

People talk about Beckenbauer's Germany and Bayern sides of the early 70s as if they were this miraculous team that just somehow came together, played amazing football and clicked in some inexplicable way. Part of that is true. They were a collection of tremendously talented players and they did click, but like any team they did not always play amazing football and when they struggled to play at their very best, it was these players that drove them to success regardless. It was the likes of Cruyff, Pelé, Beckenbauer and Maradona that were the glue in their teams. Germany in 1972 played with a swagger, verve and even nonchalance that saw them light up the Euros in a way that arguably hasn't been matched since. In 1974 however they weren't this all-conquering German-style total football team, they were efficient and effective and right the way through the tournament they managed to exert their superiority against every level of opposition they came up against - culminating of course in that match against the Dutch. For me it goes without question that without Beckenbauer they simply wouldn't have been able to do that. Despite not being at their best they were always the better team and that is down to having a player like Beckenbauer that simply dominated the opposition.

Messi himself is in a tremendously talented team, it's just that they haven't been able to turn all that talent into a great team. The managers are part of that, obviously, but I don't agree that they're the ones who are solely responsible for it. Brazil sacked their manager less than a year before the World Cup despite winning every one of their qualification games and with only a few months and a handful of games for Zagallo to prepare, a lot of the responsiblity for the performances at the 1970 World Cup actually fell upon the senior players. Carlos Alberto, Pelé, Gérson and co. had a huge amount of influence in the camp and were recognised as an extension of the management team, on and off the pitch. This is similar to what is going on with Argentina now. Sabella, like Zagallo, is reponsible for the organisational side of things but the senior players have an important role in terms of the motivational aspect and how to deal with things on the pitch - tactically, emotionally, physically etc. International management is very different for this reason and it's the reason why you see the likes of Susic, Wilmots or Maradona as international managers and recognised as figureheads of the team - motivators and people who manage the personalities in the group - but not necessarily coaches or tacticians. There are hundreds of international managers who are poor club managers because the expectations and requirements are just completely different. Many international managers are hired in part due to the fact that they were famous ex-players for that nation because that alone gives them the clout and respect needed to bring this selection of players together as a group for this short period of time.

The players at international level therefore have a much greater role in terms of their influence on tactics and how the team expresses itself in the tournament itself. That's where these really great players come to the fore - they're the organisers and leaders as well as the most gifted and influential individuals in the team. That's why people look at international football and the World Cup as something that great players need to conquer. It's got nothing to do with whether the World Cup or the Champions League is the pinnacle of football, it's to do with the fact that international football poses a completely different set of obstacles to overcome. Most of the best players of all time have played in incredibly well-oiled, well-drilled club sides that had few or no flaws and so were able to express themselves fully. You can buy players to fill those gaps in your squad so that there are no severe weaknesses. This is of course true of Messi and Barcelona - when given the platform to play at his very best he is clearly untouchable. In international football you have to deal with lopsided teams and find a way to bind everything together to overcome those issues, and you have to play with a group of players that you only see about once a month outside of international tournaments. The camaraderie, the team spirit, the organisation, the mutual understanding - it all has to come together in a short period of time, and you need these players to help that come to fruition. That's one of the huge fundamental differences to club football. Then of course there's the unique physical issues that each player has to deal with when playing so much football in such a short space of time.

This is the sort of thing that Xavi did. He was a leader of the Spanish side, he was able to exert his influence on the game in 2008, 2010 and 2012. He was played ahead of the double pivot in a position which clearly isn't his best, he played with a chronic Achilles injury and in spite of these obstacles he was able to stamp his mark on the team. In 2012 their strikers were all injured or out of form and yet they still managed to win the tournament relatively comfortably, with Xavi the MOTM in one of the most one-sided finals in history. With Xavi gone they still retain possession brilliantly but they look comparably toothless. He is not the sole reason for that but clearly he was the key cog in their side, the leader and the glue in that side. They have a tremendously talented squad but they are not a great team, and that's why someone like Xavi is so important at this level. He excelled at club and international level in the same way the likes of Pelé and co. did. Up until now I don't think you can say that about Messi. He hasn't been the glue of this Argentina team and he hasn't been able to lead his international side in the way the others did. If anything that has been Mascherano.
Very good post. Although I think its easier for xavi playing for spain than it is for messi playing for argentina as barca and spain are extremely similar in how they play.
 

Brwned

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excellent post

anyway, again you are asking messi to do the same the other GOAT players did, when they are great for differente circunstamces

messi is one of the greatest for other reasons, not for the same reasons pele, maradona, distefano or cruyff were

he has played in a top level for over 6 years now and he is still beating record after record

you might say that he didnt play as good this last year and a half, ok, i agree, but look at his numbers of this year and a half and you'll see that they are better than the numbers that Maradona, Cruyff and Distefano ever had in any year and a half

so even injured he scored shitloads of goals, set shitloads of goals for his team mates and is about to play the biggest game of them all

in a team that only scored 8 goals, one of wich was an own goal, another was a set piece goal, but the other ones, four were scored by him and the other two were set by him
Personally I think Messi is great for the same reasons Pelé was - incredible goalscoring, consistency from a very young age and the ability to elevate a great team into something special. Those two are different from the others because they were able to play alongside brilliant attacking/playmaking players and bring the best out of them, and in that sense it is unfortunate that we weren't able to see Messi in a star-studded lineup like Brazil in the 60s and 70s. Ultimately they were both final third players, immensely talented and as such always able to get involved in the build-up and passing game but not the kind of player to truly run the team. Pelé did have Didi and Gérson in '58 and '70 which Messi doesn't have. Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stéfano and Beckenbauer were different because they wanted/needed to be the centre of the play and dictate the game.

If Pelé played in this Argentina team it is questionable whether he would be any more influential. It's entirely possible that he would drive the team to the final with crucial goals/assists and attract the opponents' complete attention without ever really dominating the game. Basically I agree that it's horses for courses and all the incessant comparisons to Maradona without context are annoying and tedious, but the only reason I get involved in the debate at all is because there's so many people desperate to provide excuses for Messi which to me just seems completely unnecessary. What follows that is then weirdos like Bole top purely trying to downplay the achievements of the previous greats. I don't really care whether people think Messi is the best player ever but people ignorantly dismissing people like Di Stéfano and even Maradona is one of the worst things about this forum and this debate.
 

Bole Top

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What follows that is then weirdos like Bole top purely trying to downplay the achievements of the previous greats.
classy.

I asked why Maradona couldn't cut it in champions league and all I've got were the same excuses (Napoli not good enough) you think people shouldn't come up with in Messi's case. and by that, you concluded that I don't rate Maradona, even though I named him the best player in the history of the game in earliers posts. It should be pretty obvious by now that I'm not questioning anybody's achievements, just a certain myth and logic behind it which I disagree with and I see I'm not the only one.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Messi has had an underwhelming tournament in my eyes. He really hasn't looked like the best player in the world right now, or the best player ever. Based on the little footage @Brwned sent me a few years ago, and the words of people who have seen the other greats play, I don't think he's in that stratospheric tier with Pele and Maradona, and Beckenbauer and Cryuff. He has the talent and the skill set to end up higher than all those names by the time his career is over, but I'm not in any hurry to crown him GOAT yet. Not making any excuses for him either, you want to be the GOAT? Then step up and play, dominate a tournament from start to finish. Yes, despite having "useless" team mates (we're talking about Aguero, Higuain, Lavezzi, Mascherano here), and being double/triple marked. If he's having a great tournament, what do you use to describe his form in 2008-2010? What I have seen has fallen way short of those standards.
He's done that twice already in the champions league. Heck he's dominated the champions league throughout at times when they haven't won it as well. And he's dominated the Spanish league from start to finish year after year.

You'd think messi is a bumbling fool who can't impose himself on a tournament going by these posts, not a guy who has won player of the year 4 years in a row. Something his rivals from the past never were thought good enough to be voted.
 

Annahnomoss

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Personally I think Messi is great for the same reasons Pelé was - incredible goalscoring, consistency from a very young age and the ability to elevate a great team into something special. Those two are different from the others because they were able to play alongside brilliant attacking/playmaking players and bring the best out of them, and in that sense it is unfortunate that we weren't able to see Messi in a star-studded lineup like Brazil in the 60s and 70s. Ultimately they were both final third players, immensely talented and as such always able to get involved in the build-up and passing game but not the kind of player to truly run the team. Pelé did have Didi and Gérson in '58 and '70 which Messi doesn't have. Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stéfano and Beckenbauer were different because they wanted/needed to be the centre of the play and dictate the game.

If Pelé played in this Argentina team it is questionable whether he would be any more influential. It's entirely possible that he would drive the team to the final with crucial goals/assists and attract the opponents' complete attention without ever really dominating the game. Basically I agree that it's horses for courses and all the incessant comparisons to Maradona without context are annoying and tedious, but the only reason I get involved in the debate at all is because there's so many people desperate to provide excuses for Messi which to me just seems completely unnecessary. What follows that is then weirdos like Bole top purely trying to downplay the achievements of the previous greats. I don't really care whether people think Messi is the best player ever but people ignorantly dismissing people like Di Stéfano and even Maradona is one of the worst things about this forum and this debate.
I don't think that Messi really is the type of player to glue together individually outstanding players and making the entire team play great against the odds. What made Pele so special and unique was that they managed to field so many big stars which seemingly shouldn't work but somehow thanks to Pele it all clicked. Messi is not at all like that, he really relies on having the perfect set of team mates around him and I don't think Pele would have so many players playing below their best if he was in Messi's case.

I think Pele would have made it work with Zlatan and with Villa and allowed them both to play their best football while adjusting himself instead. Messi for me is more of an individualist which the team has to adjust around, he will play in his best position and the team will be based on who can play around Messi rather than anything else. Pele was the ultimate team player of all the greats, he didn't need to be a striker, he didn't need to play centrally, if you moved centrally he'd move out of the way out wide or he'd link up beautifully with you. I think Argentina with Pele would have find a way to use Aguero/Lavezzi/Di Maria while making the team click and play good offensive football which lead to chances.

For me Messi is one of those players who needs great service to be good, he won't take the game by the scruff and is like you say a final third player and if the team doesn't do their job well enough in the other two thirds then he will have a poor game most likely. Most of the all time greats found ways to force themselves in to the game like Eusebio or Ronaldo(BRA) who would drop extremely deep or find space out wide or whatever just to get involved and be able to impose their abilities on the opponents.

Messi is incredible, when the team gives him the ball enough times and does their job defensively well enough and when his team uses enough men offensively like he told his Argentinian coach. Nobody can take away that he is one of the greatest ever though, but I wouldn't have him near the very top personally.
 

amolbhatia50k

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This is the sort of thing that Xavi did. He was a leader of the Spanish side, he was able to exert his influence on the game in 2008, 2010 and 2012. He was played ahead of the double pivot in a position which clearly isn't his best, he played with a chronic Achilles injury and in spite of these obstacles he was able to stamp his mark on the team. In 2012 their strikers were all injured or out of form and yet they still managed to win the tournament relatively comfortably, with Xavi the MOTM in one of the most one-sided finals in history. With Xavi gone they still retain possession brilliantly but they look comparably toothless. He is not the sole reason for that but clearly he was the key cog in their side, the leader and the glue in that side. They have a tremendously talented squad but they are not a great team, and that's why someone like Xavi is so important at this level. He excelled at club and international level in the same way the likes of Pelé and co. did. Up until now I don't think you can say that about Messi. He hasn't been the glue of this Argentina team and he hasn't been able to lead his international side in the way the others did. If anything that has been Mascherano.
This paragraph is just silly.

Xavi's situation and messi's at international level could not be more different. Xavi played in almost the exact same system with almond the exact same players, at international level with Spain as he did at club level with Barcelona. And it was an outstanding bunch of players and an outstanding system. Messi has been part of a dysfunctional team that he's basically carried for most of this World Cup, creating most of the chances and scoring most of the goals. I'd love to see messi and xavi swap their places and then see it how it goes. My guess is messi would fare better given he's miles better as a footballer.

This "excelled at international level" needs to be put in perspective really. Every player is dealt a different hand. Messi IMO has definitely excelled at this World Cup. He's one of the top scorers, he's created the most chances (it's just that their strikers have been utter shit), he's played the pass of the tournament etc I didn't expect them to be in the final and he's been their main man. Not mascherano ffs :lol:

On to side note, why this obsession with players who "glue things together". Messi can do that too but he basically wins you games. A lot of games. That's the most deadly sort of player IMO. I used to think zidane with his knitting stuff together was the best player I had seen. But messi murdering defences with his ability to both set up chances and score goals is definitely more effective and useful.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I don't think that Messi really is the type of player to glue together individually outstanding players and making the entire team play great against the odds. What made Pele so special and unique was that they managed to field so many big stars which seemingly shouldn't work but somehow thanks to Pele it all clicked. Messi is not at all like that, he really relies on having the perfect set of team mates around him and I don't think Pele would have so many players playing below their best if he was in Messi's case.

I think Pele would have made it work with Zlatan and with Villa and allowed them both to play their best football while adjusting himself instead. Messi for me is more of an individualist which the team has to adjust around, he will play in his best position and the team will be based on who can play around Messi rather than anything else. Pele was the ultimate team player of all the greats, he didn't need to be a striker, he didn't need to play centrally, if you moved centrally he'd move out of the way out wide or he'd link up beautifully with you. I think Argentina with Pele would have find a way to use Aguero/Lavezzi/Di Maria while making the team click and play good offensive football which lead to chances.

For me Messi is one of those players who needs great service to be good, he won't take the game by the scruff and is like you say a final third player and if the team doesn't do their job well enough in the other two thirds then he will have a poor game most likely. Most of the all time greats found ways to force themselves in to the game like Eusebio or Ronaldo(BRA) who would drop extremely deep or find space out wide or whatever just to get involved and be able to impose their abilities on the opponents.

Messi is incredible, when the team gives him the ball enough times and does their job defensively well enough and when his team uses enough men offensively like he told his Argentinian coach. Nobody can take away that he is one of the greatest ever though, but I wouldn't have him near the very top personally.
Suarez succeeded in a weakish team last year. You really think messi is incapable of doing that?

How would pele make Higuain's touch better? He'd physically make him control the ball better ? How would he stop Di Maria from blasting crosses into the stands? This " influence" is so overrated. I swear it was only awhile back people were calling Barcelona a one man team.
 

Annahnomoss

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Suarez succeeded in a weakish team last year. You really think messi is incapable of doing that?

How would pele make Higuain's touch better? He'd physically make him control the ball better ? How would he stop Di Maria from blasting crosses into the stands? This " influence" is so overrated. I swear it was only awhile back people were calling Barcelona a one man team.
I don't think you really understand what the influence is and the easiest way to do so is to watch Pele in 1970 from start to finish. His movements eases the situation for his teammates in a way which is outstanding and something I've only seen from Pele at such level. When Jairzinho needs Pele to link up with him he does that, when Jairzinho needs the pitch to be stretched he would stay away and when Rivelino cut in he'd either link up with him or allow the space to be taken by Rivelino and adapt.

When Tostao who was a very great passer and more of a second striker/centre forward than the striker would move back to act a playmaker Pele would adjust accordingly as well. Pele was just on a whole different level in terms of this and even if he didn't possess nearly the individual qualities of Maradona or even Messi he is who I would hold as the best ever with Maradona.
 

Marcosdeto

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I don't think that Messi really is the type of player to glue together individually outstanding players and making the entire team play great against the odds. What made Pele so special and unique was that they managed to field so many big stars which seemingly shouldn't work but somehow thanks to Pele it all clicked. Messi is not at all like that, he really relies on having the perfect set of team mates around him and I don't think Pele would have so many players playing below their best if he was in Messi's case.

I think Pele would have made it work with Zlatan and with Villa and allowed them both to play their best football while adjusting himself instead. Messi for me is more of an individualist which the team has to adjust around, he will play in his best position and the team will be based on who can play around Messi rather than anything else. Pele was the ultimate team player of all the greats, he didn't need to be a striker, he didn't need to play centrally, if you moved centrally he'd move out of the way out wide or he'd link up beautifully with you. I think Argentina with Pele would have find a way to use Aguero/Lavezzi/Di Maria while making the team click and play good offensive football which lead to chances.

For me Messi is one of those players who needs great service to be good, he won't take the game by the scruff and is like you say a final third player and if the team doesn't do their job well enough in the other two thirds then he will have a poor game most likely. Most of the all time greats found ways to force themselves in to the game like Eusebio or Ronaldo(BRA) who would drop extremely deep or find space out wide or whatever just to get involved and be able to impose their abilities on the opponents.

Messi is incredible, when the team gives him the ball enough times and does their job defensively well enough and when his team uses enough men offensively like he told his Argentinian coach. Nobody can take away that he is one of the greatest ever though, but I wouldn't have him near the very top personally.
how can you say that?

i've seen PSG and Milan shat in their pants because of messi and lose the game

he scored three goals agains real madrid when his team was doing shit

how many times have barcelona and argentina depended on him to win a game?
 

amolbhatia50k

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I don't think you really understand what the influence is and the easiest way to do so is to watch Pele in 1970 from start to finish. His movements eases the situation for his teammates in a way which is outstanding and something I've only seen from Pele at such level. When Jairzinho needs Pele to link up with him he does that, when Jairzinho needs the pitch to be stretched he would stay away and when Rivelino cut in he'd either link up with him or allow the space to be taken by Rivelino and adapt.

When Tostao who was a very great passer and more of a second striker/centre forward than the striker would move back to act a playmaker Pele would adjust accordingly as well. Pele was just on a whole different level in terms of this and even if he didn't possess nearly the individual qualities of Maradona or even Messi he is who I would hold as the best ever with Maradona.
Yes, no one can understand influence in sport if they haven't seen pele. He's the only sportsman to ever influence.

The stuff you then cite sounds like pretty basic stuff most top players do week in week out. You make messi sound like some individualistic nutter. Messi has dropped back into pockets of space and even the half way line to pick up the ball and link up to create for others plenty of time, in addition to drifting out wide to attack from there. He's not as clueless tactically as you make him out to be.
 

amolbhatia50k

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how can you say that?

i've seen PSG and Milan shat in their pants because of messi and lose the game

he scored three goals agains real madrid when his team was doing shit

how many times have barcelona and argentina depended on him to win a game?
It's funny that you have people here saying that if the others don't play well them messi will be poor, when week on week out he's barely had any poor games for Barcelona over a number of years. His consistency of ridiculous levels of performances has been freakish. And I actually wanted him to struggle at the time subconsciously !
 

amolbhatia50k

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Also in terms of tactical influence, I thought the whole false 9 creating and scoring an absurd number of goals was pretty damn impressive.
 

Marcosdeto

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It's funny that you have people here saying that if the others don't play well them messi will be poor, when week on week out he's barely had any poor games for Barcelona over a number of years. His consistency of ridiculous levels of performances has been freakish. And I actually wanted him to struggle at the time subconsciously !
this! so many times he was the MVP for barcelona and argentina

times where his partners couldnt find the ball and he saved them with his goals

seriously, how many times have a single player outscored liverpool in a single season

in fact, he scored more goals than 13 other la liga teams, so only 7 teams -barcelona included- scored more than him

every year, from 2008 till 2014 he has scored at least .75 goals a game!!!!!!!!

and that was the least, with a peak of 1.22

he won two CL scoring in the final game

he won the olimpic medal and he has taken argentina to the world cup final

but he still needs to prove something

something non of the other GOAT had to prove
 

motorhead

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I don't think that Messi really is the type of player to glue togther individually outstanding players and making the entire team play great against the odds. What made Pele so special and unique was that they managed to field so many big stars which seemingly shouldn't work but somehow thanks to Pele it all clicked. Messi is not at all like that, he really relies on having the perfect set of team mates around him and I don't think Pele would have so many players playing below their best if he was in Messi's case.

I think Pele would have made it work with Zlatan and with Villa and allowed them both to play their best football while adjusting himself instead. Messi for me is more of an individualist which the team has to adjust around, he will play in his best position and the team will be based on who can play around Messi rather than anything else. Pele was the ultimate team player of all the greats, he didn't need to be a striker, he didn't need to play centrally, if you moved centrally he'd move out of the way out wide or he'd link up beautifully with you. I think Argentina with Pele would have find a way to use Aguero/Lavezzi/Di Maria while making the team click and play good offensive football which lead to chances.

For me Messi is one of those players who needs great service to be good, he won't take the game by the scruff and is like you say a final third player and if the team doesn't do their job well enough in the other two thirds then he will have a poor game most likely. Most of the all time greats found ways to force themselves in to the game like Eusebio or Ronaldo(BRA) who would drop extremely deep or find space out wide or whatever just to get involved and be able to impose their abilities on the opponents.

Messi is incredible, when the team gives him the ball enough times and does their job defensively well enough and when his team uses enough men offensively like he told his Argentinian coach. Nobody can take away that he is one of the greatest ever though, but I wouldn't have him near the very top personally.
So Pele would would have made injured players play better. Rather than expose the fact that you dont have any idea about the Argentina team, consider that Higuain Aguero and Di maria plus Gago came to the world cup recovering from injuries . Two of these four starters have since re-injured themselves and the other two had simply not had match form. Sticking with Higuain has been worthwhile because he has improved his conditioning with every game. It was the opposite with Gago who played himself out of the team. This means that of all the offensive schemes Argentina trained for the last 3 years, the only component left is Messi and Higuain. Everything else you've described is pure conjecture.

Fact: Messi recovering from about 4 hamstring injuries in 2013 kept Barca in a title race till the last day with a manger that basically quit since February. On top of that this same year his previous coach even died, hurtling his club into depression. I'd like to see which other sports stars kept their teams competitive in similar circumstances. Even winning the league in the year that said coach was missing for 6 months because of the illness that eventually claimed his life. It has never happened before in the top flight of Europe that I can remember. Now he has helped his country reach a World Cup final for the first time in 24 years and all you can wonder is if player x or y could have done it better.
 

Chesterlestreet

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but he still needs to prove something

something non of the other GOAT had to prove
This whole GOAT business is just as silly as the acronym itself if you ask me. But surely the only real debate to be had is whether Messi is THE GOAT, not whether he's ONE of the greatest. And in that context it would seem that winning the World Cup matters. Those who put Cruyff or Di Stefano above Pele and/or Maradona are very few - and this undoubtedly has something to do with the fact that the former two never won the biggest prize.

If Maradona hadn't done so in style in '86 I suspect there'd be no contest - Pele would've been Numero Uno pretty much undisputed. So, in that sense - foolish as the whole thing is - it's not unreasonable to bang on about Messi's lack of a WC winner's medal.

NOTE I'm talking about people's perceptions here, not my own views. It matters feck all to me whether a player has a WC under his belt or not. Some of the most naturally gifted players in history never had a realistic chance of winning it in the first place.
 

Theon

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I really don't understand why people are desperate to make excuses for Messi when he really doesn't need them. Where does this idea come from that he needs to play in a team at the very top of its game to be successful, and if he doesn't then he can fail and be exempt from criticism? It's as if people think that every great player has played in a team that was consistently at the top of its game in every tournament they played. Do people really think that Brazil in '58, Germany in '74, Argentina in '86 or even a team like France in 2006 were all-conquering with every player at the top of their game and playing brilliant football? Without Pelé in '58 it's entirely conceivable that they could have failed to get past Wales in a tough quarter final never mind the rest of the tournament. Have a look at the state of the pitch that Germany in '74 played in when they came up against Poland in what was essentially the semi-final. It's simply impossible to play at your very best in those conditions and if they had lost that game against a strong Polish team it would have been Poland in the final and not them. Argentina in '86 even with Maradona's moments of genius v England were inches away from taking the game to extra time and every game was a struggle, which is what made Maradona's performances all the more impressive. Zidane dragged them through the knockout stages in 2006 and knitted that team together incredibly well despite their obvious flaws.

People talk about Beckenbauer's Germany and Bayern sides of the early 70s as if they were this miraculous team that just somehow came together, played amazing football and clicked in some inexplicable way. Part of that is true. They were a collection of tremendously talented players and they did click, but like any team they did not always play amazing football and when they struggled to play at their very best, it was these players that drove them to success regardless. It was the likes of Cruyff, Pelé, Beckenbauer and Maradona that were the glue in their teams. Germany in 1972 played with a swagger, verve and even nonchalance that saw them light up the Euros in a way that arguably hasn't been matched since. In 1974 however they weren't this all-conquering German-style total football team, they were efficient and effective and right the way through the tournament they managed to exert their superiority against every level of opposition they came up against - culminating of course in that match against the Dutch. For me it goes without question that without Beckenbauer they simply wouldn't have been able to do that. Despite not being at their best they were always the better team and that is down to having a player like Beckenbauer that simply dominated the opposition.

Messi himself is in a tremendously talented team, it's just that they haven't been able to turn all that talent into a great team. The managers are part of that, obviously, but I don't agree that they're the ones who are solely responsible for it. Brazil sacked their manager less than a year before the World Cup despite winning every one of their qualification games and with only a few months and a handful of games for Zagallo to prepare, a lot of the responsiblity for the performances at the 1970 World Cup actually fell upon the senior players. Carlos Alberto, Pelé, Gérson and co. had a huge amount of influence in the camp and were recognised as an extension of the management team, on and off the pitch. This is similar to what is going on with Argentina now. Sabella, like Zagallo, is reponsible for the organisational side of things but the senior players have an important role in terms of the motivational aspect and how to deal with things on the pitch - tactically, emotionally, physically etc. International management is very different for this reason and it's the reason why you see the likes of Susic, Wilmots or Maradona as international managers and recognised as figureheads of the team - motivators and people who manage the personalities in the group - but not necessarily coaches or tacticians. There are hundreds of international managers who are poor club managers because the expectations and requirements are just completely different. Many international managers are hired in part due to the fact that they were famous ex-players for that nation because that alone gives them the clout and respect needed to bring this selection of players together as a group for this short period of time.

The players at international level therefore have a much greater role in terms of their influence on tactics and how the team expresses itself in the tournament itself. That's where these really great players come to the fore - they're the organisers and leaders as well as the most gifted and influential individuals in the team. That's why people look at international football and the World Cup as something that great players need to conquer. It's got nothing to do with whether the World Cup or the Champions League is the pinnacle of football, it's to do with the fact that international football poses a completely different set of obstacles to overcome. Most of the best players of all time have played in incredibly well-oiled, well-drilled club sides that had few or no flaws and so were able to express themselves fully. You can buy players to fill those gaps in your squad so that there are no severe weaknesses. This is of course true of Messi and Barcelona - when given the platform to play at his very best he is clearly untouchable. In international football you have to deal with lopsided teams and find a way to bind everything together to overcome those issues, and you have to play with a group of players that you only see about once a month outside of international tournaments. The camaraderie, the team spirit, the organisation, the mutual understanding - it all has to come together in a short period of time, and you need these players to help that come to fruition. That's one of the huge fundamental differences to club football. Then of course there's the unique physical issues that each player has to deal with when playing so much football in such a short space of time.

This is the sort of thing that Xavi did. He was a leader of the Spanish side, he was able to exert his influence on the game in 2008, 2010 and 2012. He was played ahead of the double pivot in a position which clearly isn't his best, he played with a chronic Achilles injury and in spite of these obstacles he was able to stamp his mark on the team. In 2012 their strikers were all injured or out of form and yet they still managed to win the tournament relatively comfortably, with Xavi the MOTM in one of the most one-sided finals in history. With Xavi gone they still retain possession brilliantly but they look comparably toothless. He is not the sole reason for that but clearly he was the key cog in their side, the leader and the glue in that side. They have a tremendously talented squad but they are not a great team, and that's why someone like Xavi is so important at this level. He excelled at club and international level in the same way the likes of Pelé and co. did. Up until now I don't think you can say that about Messi. He hasn't been the glue of this Argentina team and he hasn't been able to lead his international side in the way the others did. If anything that has been Mascherano.
Fantastic post Brwned
 

sammyvine

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wow this the=read
Messi has had an underwhelming tournament in my eyes. He really hasn't looked like the best player in the world right now, or the best player ever. Based on the little footage @Brwned sent me a few years ago, and the words of people who have seen the other greats play, I don't think he's in that stratospheric tier with Pele and Maradona, and Beckenbauer and Cryuff. He has the talent and the skill set to end up higher than all those names by the time his career is over, but I'm not in any hurry to crown him GOAT yet. Not making any excuses for him either, you want to be the GOAT? Then step up and play, dominate a tournament from start to finish. Yes, despite having "useless" team mates (we're talking about Aguero, Higuain, Lavezzi, Mascherano here), and being double/triple marked. If he's having a great tournament, what do you use to describe his form in 2008-2010? What I have seen has fallen way short of those standards.
Your a Messi hater though
When you hate somebody, nothing will ever be good enough
 

sammyvine

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This always happens

When there is a superstar in anything they will try and bring it/him/her down but once they retire or they are gone, we only remember the good things. it happened to Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan, Zidane, Pele, Maradonna etc..

It will happen to Messi as well. When somebody or something is very good, people will find anything to fault it
 

Chesterlestreet

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Aye - and with superstars come, also, a host of perfectly blinkered admirerers who will get upset by the tiniest criticism of their idol, and who will do their worst to belittle anyone who might be considered a rival. That too is part of the old story.
 

sammyvine

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Aye - and with superstars come, also, a host of perfectly blinkered admirerers who will get upset by the tiniest criticism of their idol, and who will do their worst to belittle anyone who might be considered a rival. That too is part of the old story.
If that quote is directed at me then i disagree. Of course there are fan boys but i hate fans who always try to find any fault they can with certain players. This is what happens to Messi and Ronaldo
 

Twentythreeeleven

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It's a myth that Argentina 86 was poor or an "average side" and Maradona single handedly won them the world cup. An absolute myth. I watched a lot of that tournament in 86 in the form of full games. Argentina were a fantastic team.

I think the movie "Hero" has warped a lot of peoples views on what actually happened at the World Cup. The plot was centred around individuals and not players. It showed you Maradona scoring and setting up goals and going on solo runs. But it only portrayed about two or three minutes out of every game. It really distorted what went on and took the focus off what was overall a brilliant Argentinian team.

Valdano, of Real Madrid no less, was one of the top strikers in Europe at the time. He'd scored 23 goals in 40 games in season 85/86, in one of the most defensive eras in football. Burruchaga was putting away a goal every three games for Nantes as an attacking midfielder the season for before that World Cup as well.

The spine of that team through the middle and defensively starting from the goalkeeper Pumpido, Ruggeri (Centreback), Enrique (Centre mid) were part of the great River Plate team that won the Primera Division, Copa Liberatdores and Intercontential Cup in 1986. They also won the Copa Interamericana in 1987.

Hector Enrique was an excellent box to box midfielder who did a lot of the dirty work behind the scenes and also feed Maradona for a lot of his goals and assists. He played most of his career in Argentina but could have easily played for any top team in Europe.

Then you had a backline constisting of Brown, Cucifio, Ruggeri and Batista who many considered one of the best defences at the world cup prior to it even commencing.

Sure Maradona was the catalyst in the end. But that team was set up in way that got the best out of him. He was in great form. But even without him that Argentinian team would have stood a chance. Other players would have stepped up when needed.

IMHO Maradona was surrounded by better players at that World Cup than Messi is now. A lot of the reason why Maradona had space to do damage in that World Cup was because of the players around him.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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It's a myth that Argentina 86 was poor or an "average side" and Maradona single handedly won them the world cup. An absolute myth. I watched a lot of that tournament in 86 in the form of full games. Argentina were a fantastic team.

I think the movie "Hero" has warped a lot of peoples views on what actually happened at the World Cup. The plot was centred around individuals and not players. It showed you Maradona scoring and setting up goals and going on solo runs. But it only portrayed about two or three minutes out of every game. It really distorted what went on and took the focus off what was overall a brilliant Argentinian team.

Valdano, of Real Madrid no less, was one of the top strikers in Europe at the time. He'd scored 23 goals in 40 games in season 85/86, in one of the most defensive eras in football. Burruchaga was putting away a goal every three games for Nantes as an attacking midfielder the season for before that World Cup as well.

The spine of that team through the middle and defensively starting from the goalkeeper Pumpido, Ruggeri (Centreback), Enrique (Centre mid) were part of the great River Plate team that won the Primera Division, Copa Liberatdores and Intercontential Cup in 1986. They also won the Copa Interamericana in 1987.

Hector Enrique was an excellent box to box midfielder who did a lot of the dirty work behind the scenes and also feed Maradona for a lot of his goals and assists. He played most of his career in Argentina but could have easily played for any top team in Europe.

Then you had a backline constisting of Brown, Cucifio, Ruggeri and Batista who many considered one of the best defences at the world cup prior to it even commencing.

Sure Maradona was the catalyst in the end. But that team was set up in way that got the best out of him. He was in great form. But even without him that Argentinian team would have stood a chance. Other players would have stepped up when needed.

IMHO Maradona was surrounded by better players at that World Cup than Messi is now. A lot of the reason why Maradona had space to do damage in that World Cup was because of the players around him.
I agree in part. There has been a tendency to add ever more to the Maradona mythos, making both Napoli and Argentina '86 out to be positively weak teams that Maradona elevated in almost super human fashion. They clearly weren't weak teams by any stretch.

What still remains true is that Argentina '86 wouldn't have been anywhere near a WC final, let alone the title, without Maradona. They had a solid enough team with one or two players I'd call top class (Ruggeri was that, no doubt - Valdano not so much, not for my money) apart from Maradona himself. Players like Burruchaga (who had a great tournament but a very underwhelming career overall) and Batista (who was nowhere near as good as Mascherano, for obvious reference) may serve to sum up the overall quality of the team minus Maradona.

I think it's more interesting to compare Maradona's impact on that team, the way he lead his team (as captain and playmaker), to Messi's impact and leadership on the pitch. The quality of the two sides minus their big player is about even, given lack of form and injuries. On paper this Argentina side have more top players, though - without a doubt, I'd say.
 

Chesterlestreet

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If that quote is directed at me then i disagree. Of course there are fan boys but i hate fans who always try to find any fault they can with certain players. This is what happens to Messi and Ronaldo
It wasn't directed at you. 'Twas a general remark inspired by your claim that superstars attract so-called haters (a claim which is clearly true, of course).
 

slim

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The fact that messi doesn't run as much should actually be a reason for people to not expect too much from him currently. Add the vomiting he has been doing a lot recently it's pretty clear something is off with him physically.

Hopefully he returns to his physical best with proper rest and a good training regime.
 

Bole Top

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well, if it's true that something is physically wrong with him or he's just not 100% ready, it was always going to be even more obvious when you have to play 5 games in 15 days. no wonder he looks a bit tired in that case.
 

TheShedEnd

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Messi has disappointed Lineker:

http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/28274470

Basically saying what the eagle eyed like myself have been saying for a while now. Slow and static footballer with even less work rate than Ronaldo.
He was against Holland, that's it. It was his worst performance of the World Cup, other than that he single handedly got Argentina out the group stage, played his best game against Switzerland before he set up the eventual winner as penalties loomed, then had a hand in the goal for Higuain against Belgium.

I was critical of his performance against Holland too, but to use that and say he's been a disappointment in the tournament is pathetic. We expect far too much from him, and it stems purely from the myth Maradona single handedly did it for Argentina in 1986. The excuses are already out even before he's played the biggest match of his career.

Also, Ronaldo's work rate and constant movement off the ball is what makes him such a brilliant player. Defensively he won't track back much, but he does cause havoc in the attack by running into the spaces to get the goals he has. He also doesn't carry the same danger Messi does in one on ones, which is why Messi is always surrounded by three or four players and Ronaldo isn't.
 

VorZakone

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If Messi wants to shut up his critics, he'll have to carry Argentina to a win. This is his moment, finally he's in a World Cup final. For me, he's already the best player in the world right now but winning the World Cup will only strengthen his legacy.
 

Marcosdeto

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Messi has disappointed Lineker:

http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/28274470

Basically saying what the eagle eyed like myself have been saying for a while now. Slow and static footballer with even less work rate than Ronaldo.
the fact that messi scored 4 goals while ronaldo was still in the competition is aknowledged by lineker or is he comparing a player that scored four vital goals to one that score one useless goal just for the sake of it?
 

Bob Loblaw

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the fact that messi scored 4 goals while ronaldo was still in the competition is aknowledge or is he comparing a player that scored four vital goals to one that score one useless goal just for the sake of it?
No Ronaldo comparisons!
 

Snake Plissken

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I wonder if there is something else we don't know about, some other injury or problem. Stamina definitely seems to be an issue.

Ultimately what Linekar says is true though, even on TV you could see that he became very static as the game went on. Argentina better hope this isn't the case tomorrow.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I wonder if there is something else we don't know about, some other injury or problem. Stamina definitely seems to be an issue.

Ultimately what Linekar says is true though, even on TV you could see that he became very static as the game went on. Argentina better hope this isn't the case tomorrow.
I think it's pretty obvious that he's just not right physically. I'm not sure that statement of his about his legs "feeling like a hundred kilos" is rubbish either as claimed by ballague.
 

TheShedEnd

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I wonder if there is something else we don't know about, some other injury or problem. Stamina definitely seems to be an issue.

Ultimately what Linekar says is true though, even on TV you could see that he became very static as the game went on. Argentina better hope this isn't the case tomorrow.
You could say the same about the entire Barcelona team last season tbh.

Thing with Messi though is whilst he's strolling about, he's drawing other players in, which should be allowing the other players more time and space to punish the opposition, and he's still had the quality to make the difference in all the matches. Even against Holland he created a few very good chances, one of which Rodriguez should have tucked away to take the game away from Holland before Extra Time.
 

Snake Plissken

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You could say the same about the entire Barcelona team last season tbh.

Thing with Messi though is whilst he's strolling about, he's drawing other players in, which should be allowing the other players more time and space to punish the opposition, and he's still had the quality to make the difference in all the matches. Even against Holland he created a few very good chances, one of which Rodriguez should have tucked away to take the game away from Holland before Extra Time.
True, but what Linekar says about him making no attempt to get into the box is also true. If he's going to be that static and if he's going to run out of steam completely they'd be aswell bringing someone else on then you at least have the extra man in the box. I personally don't think it's acceptable, there's no way its laziness or a lack of effort though, it's clearly just a conditioning problem.
 

slim

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True, but what Linekar says about him making no attempt to get into the box is also true. If he's going to be that static and if he's going to run out of steam completely they'd be aswell bringing someone else on then you at least have the extra man in the box. I personally don't think it's acceptable, there's no way its laziness or a lack of effort though, it's clearly just a conditioning problem.
That's why it don't make much sense in Lineker saying he's dissapointed with Messi. Why would he purposely not run into the box on the biggest stage? The stage where he knows could cement his place up there with Maradona and Pele.

Something I'd expect a robbie savage to say to get attention.
 

Theon

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I agree in part. There has been a tendency to add ever more to the Maradona mythos, making both Napoli and Argentina '86 out to be positively weak teams that Maradona elevated in almost super human fashion. They clearly weren't weak teams by any stretch.

What still remains true is that Argentina '86 wouldn't have been anywhere near a WC final, let alone the title, without Maradona. They had a solid enough team with one or two players I'd call top class (Ruggeri was that, no doubt - Valdano not so much, not for my money) apart from Maradona himself. Players like Burruchaga (who had a great tournament but a very underwhelming career overall) and Batista (who was nowhere near as good as Mascherano, for obvious reference) may serve to sum up the overall quality of the team minus Maradona.

I think it's more interesting to compare Maradona's impact on that team, the way he lead his team (as captain and playmaker), to Messi's impact and leadership on the pitch. The quality of the two sides minus their big player is about even, given lack of form and injuries. On paper this Argentina side have more top players, though - without a doubt, I'd say.
Another good post.

Really good thread this.