I honestly can't believe how far this Stoke argument has come along.
Is it because they tend to piss on Barca's C team, I mean Arsenal?
Is it because they tend to piss on Barca's C team, I mean Arsenal?
Messi is better than maradona....
- Thread starter VoetbalWizard
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there's no other logical explanation
Shit on a stick
It only makes sense in Jopub's world.
because they don't do it to us.
We have playes scoring with the back of their head against them!
marco is being intentionally obtuse. He is bleating on about 'Stoke' because it is a kinda gotcha point..when really it is not..and he knows it.
He refuses to acknowledge that if Messi had as little protection as Best and Maradona had, he will have been a lot more limited in his ability to play the way he has.
The one point I will concede is that Messi may very well improve. I still feel he will not be able to surpass Best and Maradona. That is purely my subjective feeling. it is my opinion and I dont have to justify it. But I hope he proves us doubters wrong.
and the whole so and so has won more WC medals and other titles is only relevant if that is the only yardstick for saying who is the greatest player. In that respect I suppose Pele should win hands down. Yet there are many who argue that Maradona was the better footballer.
I suspect it is because more people have seen Maradona than Pele in his prime.
In the same way Giggs would be a greater player than Best because he has more titles. yet I would say most will agree Best was the greater player.
He refuses to acknowledge that if Messi had as little protection as Best and Maradona had, he will have been a lot more limited in his ability to play the way he has.
The one point I will concede is that Messi may very well improve. I still feel he will not be able to surpass Best and Maradona. That is purely my subjective feeling. it is my opinion and I dont have to justify it. But I hope he proves us doubters wrong.
and the whole so and so has won more WC medals and other titles is only relevant if that is the only yardstick for saying who is the greatest player. In that respect I suppose Pele should win hands down. Yet there are many who argue that Maradona was the better footballer.
I suspect it is because more people have seen Maradona than Pele in his prime.
In the same way Giggs would be a greater player than Best because he has more titles. yet I would say most will agree Best was the greater player.
Well Ryan Giggs can have all the medals he wants - George Best was on a different planet as a player
Its difficult to talk about these comparisons as many have not seen the original 'article' in their original environment / time which you and I have (and I 'm a believer that Pele was better than Maradona having seen him too!)
Fk me put George Best in this Barcelona side or the current Spanish side and if he stayed fit and sober
there's no amount of medals that would escape him. That's an interesting thought is'nt it actually. Put Maradona in this current Barca side and they'd for me be 2 goals better before the match even kicked off! Put Messi in that Argentina side from 90 and I can honestly say they'd have gone out at the group stages of Italia
Mmm.. RDreams thats an interesting perspective on just how good Maradona was I think you'd agree.
Well Ryan Giggs can have all the medals he wants - George Best was on a different planet as a player
Its difficult to talk about these comparisons as many have not seen the original 'article' in their original environment / time which you and I have (and I 'm a believer that Pele was better than Maradona having seen him too!)
Fk me put George Best in this Barcelona side or the current Spanish side and if he stayed fit and sober
That's an interesting thought is'nt it actually. Put Maradona in this current Barca side and they'd for me be 2 goals better before the match even kicked off! Put Messi in that Argentina side from 90 and I can honestly say they'd have gone out at the group stages of Italia
Mmm.. RDreams thats an interesting perspective on just how good Maradona was I think you'd agree.
I back you up! Maradona was a different animal.
Best? Pele said he was the greatest and when Maradona came to England, Best was the person he wanted to meet first. and what did Best have to show for World Cup medals. says it all for me.
On pure skill I would put Maradona above. Pele. But I will rate Pele higher for one great quality he had that Maradona did not. Pele was a great sportsman.
I agree with your other thoughts on Maradona and Best in comparison.
I honestly feel privileged to have seen Best and Maradona. Pure magic.
I hope Messi gets to their level...except he does not do it too often at our expense
On pure skill I would put Maradona above. Pele. But I will rate Pele higher for one great quality he had that Maradona did not. Pele was a great sportsman.
I agree with your other thoughts on Maradona and Best in comparison.
I honestly feel privileged to have seen Best and Maradona. Pure magic.
I hope Messi gets to their level...except he does not do it too often at our expense
I think Cruyff was greater than all of them, but don't expect anyone to agree.
Well Ryan Giggs can have all the medals he wants - George Best was on a different planet as a player
Its difficult to talk about these comparisons as many have not seen the original 'article' in their original environment / time which you and I have (and I 'm a believer that Pele was better than Maradona having seen him too!)
Fk me put George Best in this Barcelona side or the current Spanish side and if he stayed fit and sober
That's an interesting thought is'nt it actually. Put Maradona in this current Barca side and they'd for me be 2 goals better before the match even kicked off! Put Messi in that Argentina side from 90 and I can honestly say they'd have gone out at the group stages of Italia
Mmm.. RDreams thats an interesting perspective on just how good Maradona was I think you'd agree.
That's just the thing, you can't honestly say any of it because none of it is even remotely plausible which is why these comparisons are always rediculous.
I can honestly say that if Maradona faced off against this current arsenal side he'd have scored at least 8 goals in a single match...
ok I wont agree
but he was a magical player. i saw him in a friendly against England..he totally destroyed us
But that Ajax side he led in the late 60s early 70s...they could have won the bloody world cup.
I think this Barca side may just be the equal of that one.
Maradona would have scored over 10 goals against Arsenal playing for Barce...assisting each one...at the Emirates. Not that's he's ever been as prolific as Messi but he'll have all the protection in the world so count a hatrick right there and then before kick off.
Back in Jo's day, there wasn't all of this fannying about in football. If you even tried a dribble a flying kick would come your way, poorly dubbed English and a lad with nunchucks and the ref wouldn't say shit.
This means that everything achieved by the likes of Maradona must be multiplied by 3 when comparing it todays generation.
I think it's fair to say if Pele played for Stoke they would would win the Champions League 3 years in a row without ever qualifying.
Due to all the protection in footy these days why not. The fact football hasn't got faster and more psychically demanding only makes things even better because 2 + 2 = 5.
Let's all just get our assume on.
Back in Jo's day, there wasn't all of this fannying about in football. If you even tried a dribble a flying kick would come your way, poorly dubbed English and a lad with nunchucks and the ref wouldn't say shit.
This means that everything achieved by the likes of Maradona must be multiplied by 3 when comparing it todays generation.
I think it's fair to say if Pele played for Stoke they would would win the Champions League 3 years in a row without ever qualifying.
Due to all the protection in footy these days why not. The fact football hasn't got faster and more psychically demanding only makes things even better because 2 + 2 = 5.
Let's all just get our assume on.
Hehe, underneath the dramatic licence, a fair point is being made
not just our assume lets "honestly say" exactly what would happen based on... well based on nothing really.
It's based on their own perceptions from watching them play which while flawed is still a lot more basis than a lot of other people's comments on the matter, whatever way you look at it.
The funniest thing is I've probably seen alot more of Maradona than some of the old heads in this thread.
The difference in opinion between some in the thread may come down to preference... Some may prefer the midfield playmaker over the havoc wreaking last third hurricane. I know it's in Maradona's abilities as the former that makes me prefer him to Messi as the latter... Though Messi may very well be more extreme with regards to some of his abilities, and has an insane record already now.
How often do you think these old heads got to see Maradona?
He didn't play in this country bar a few occasions. It's not as if Napoli or Barcelona games were available on TV over here then. They saw World Cup matches, which are readily available to watch today still
If someone here says they think Best is the greatest player ever, they've got more basis for that, in that they may have seen him, warts and all, for seasons on end. But then they don't get to see his competitors to the same degree, apart from the few days they roll into town to play against him. Pele has a bad day, Savo Milosovic has a good day... and you're getting very interesting impressions of a player from that!
I've time for all these opinions, but when someone looks at Messi play, and what he's achieved by 23, and says he can never be as good as XYZ player they saw in their youth (funny how they were always the best eh), I think their opinion probably isn't worth listening too
A lot more youtube videos I'll give you that...
Youtube aside I'm genuinely interested to know where you've got the rest of your videos of him.
Youtube aside I'm genuinely interested to know where you've got the rest of your videos of him.
Well Ryan Giggs can have all the medals he wants - George Best was on a different planet as a player
Its difficult to talk about these comparisons as many have not seen the original 'article' in their original environment / time which you and I have (and I 'm a believer that Pele was better than Maradona having seen him too!)
Fk me put George Best in this Barcelona side or the current Spanish side and if he stayed fit and sober
That's an interesting thought is'nt it actually. Put Maradona in this current Barca side and they'd for me be 2 goals better before the match even kicked off! Put Messi in that Argentina side from 90 and I can honestly say they'd have gone out at the group stages of Italia
Mmm.. RDreams thats an interesting perspective on just how good Maradona was I think you'd agree.
bleh
during the group stages in italy 1990 maradona did very little, in fact we suffer a defeat against cameroon, then we beat russia 2-0 and only because the stupid ref didnt saw a blattant penalty that maradona stupidly comited -touching the ball with his hands (in fact, in argentina is called "the second hand of god") and finaly we lamely tied against romania 1-1
maradona didn't score a goal
in fact, of the three goals argentina scored in that first stage, maradona did nothing, just kicked one corner kick against romania and from that Monzon header ended up in a goal
here are the goals, watch them carefully, and after that, tell me why you say that with messi and without maradona argentina would have gone in the group stages:
unless you find that maradona corner kick was out of this world and that messi cant do that ...
we qualified to the next round as one of the best thirds
1990 FIFA World Cup Group B - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but yes, keep talking like this, there's always going to be people thinking you know what you are saying
A lot more youtube videos I'll give you that...
Youtube aside I'm genuinely interested to know where you've got the rest of your videos of him.
If somebody tapes a video and puts it on youtube is there a difference?
Footage is footage is it not?
Unless some of these old heads travelled to San Paolo and the Camp Nou to watch him live fair play!
Further proof Jopub hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.
His assist vs Brazil later in the tourny was one of the greatest I've seen though.
and the likes of Brwned shouldn't fall for it and assume he's watched any more of him than some of us younger lads.
A lot more youtube videos I'll give you that...
Youtube aside I'm genuinely interested to know where you've got the rest of your videos of him.
I have (well used too, not sure where it is any more) a wonderful 'history of World Cup' collection that I used to enjoy watching. Pretty old, I think it included World Cup 1994 but it might have gone up to 1990 and had a preview of 94, can't remember
Best? Pele said he was the greatest and when Maradona came to England, Best was the person he wanted to meet first. and what did Best have to show for World Cup medals. says it all for me.
On pure skill I would put Maradona above. Pele. But I will rate Pele higher for one great quality he had that Maradona did not. Pele was a great sportsman.
I agree with your other thoughts on Maradona and Best in comparison.
I honestly feel privileged to have seen Best and Maradona. Pure magic.
I hope Messi gets to their level...except he does not do it too often at our expense
IMO the top 5 best players I've seen are
Duncan Edwards
then in no particular order
Best
Pele
Maradona
Puskas
and following those again in no particular order
Messi
Cruyff
Van Basten
Garincha
Di Stefano
Mathews
Clips give a distorted view and I didn't know there were that many full games on youtube. Even so, I'd imagine that there were games that were on tv that haven't been converted into video files on the internetz. Maybe not, maybe all they did do was watch them at the World Cup. I like to convince myself otherwise because if not people's opinions of the greatest player ever are based on just 20-odd games and I can't quite believe that.
FWIW, Jopub's an idiot, his opinion in anything about anything isn't something I'd take on board.
If you be lookin' for footage, check your PMs.
You'll be surprised.
Judging someone's entire career on 21 games...madness.
Further proof Jopub hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.
His assist vs Brazil later in the tourny was one of the greatest I've seen though.
and the likes of Brwned shouldn't fall for it and assume he's watched any more of him than some of us younger lads.
that pass to canigia was genius, don't get me wrong, maradona did little in that world cup because he was injured so his game involvement was scarse
the ones that took us to the final games where cannigia, giusti -a midfielder not much known by europeans, but i'd love to have in manchester united- and, most of all, the goalkeeper goicoechea, that stopped penalties during the shoot outs against yugoeslavia and italy
I prefer Maradona as a player. I am the kind of guy who does a sex wee over a brilliant pass. And Diego simply had an irresistible tenacity and presence on the pitch that Messi does not. He had the drive and leadership of a Roy Keane and combined it with being the best dribbler and passer of the ball the game has ever seen. And he is probably the most intelligent footballer I have ever seen. He just did everything with purpose.
That said, 100 goals in two seasons. You can't argue with that kind of return. Maradona would never have scored that in Europe no matter the team. And he didn't. It's the kind of utterly ridiculous return that propels Messi into the same echelon for me, when you combine it with him being the second best dribbler the world has ever seen, a phenomenal passer of the ball and really showing a big game mentality for stepping up to the plates and winning trophies. I don't think I've ever seen a player take the piss in a final like Messi did. And you can't ask for me from a player than what he did to get them to the final either. And two year running now, his goals have kept a ridiculously expensively assembled Madrid side at bay from winning the title. On club level, he is simply charting new territory for accomplishment.
I think techniquewise there is not much between them. I rate Maradona a bit higher because I think he had more confidence in his ability on the ball (it sounds insane to say about Messi, but it's marginals) and knew he could take the piss out of opponents more and consequently did so. Their off the ball movement to create space for themselves is both as good as any I've seen, but I am gonna have to go with Messi here. Those runs into the box to score so many goals are a facet Diego didn't master as well.
If Messi quit tomorrow, I'd go for Diego ahead of him. But give it 2-3 more years of this and I expect to change my mind.
I definitely think fans tend to inflate the reputation of players from the past over time. It's the nature of memory. Our minds filter out boring, ineffective performances but remember all the best games from all our favourite players. Their whole career gets distilled into a highlight reel, subconsciously. It's human nature and makes it very difficult to be confident our own memories of players from previous decades are 100% accurate.
I doubt there are many Europeans who have seen more than that from Pele.
We're football fans, not scouts. 20 games is a pretty decent amount to evaluate a player for for your average armchair viewer. Especially pre-sky players.
I'd agree with you on most points, but I'd add that if Messi really were as ridiculous as all that, why doesn't he slot into Argentina and score goals in a WC? I'm not one to use it as a stick to beat him with in general, but if he were all that and a bag of crisps then surely he'd be able to do as el Diego, go wherever and come up with the goods. We'll see as he's the focal point of another WC and with a proper manager in 2014, but as of now, with Diego's career over and Messi's not even half-way, that is the reason why Diego gets it for me.
It's a hard one, because I wouldn't rate the ECL lower than the WC in terms of how hard the competition is, it's only the fact that the WC so rarely comes around, but he certainly benefits from being in a team of incredible continuity in the last 10 years in terms of training, style of play and player inventory. Maradona went several places and was easily the stand-out player for the most part.
If Messi ever took the time to get the same ability in terms of giving the ball a snooker-spin to have it set itself up for the oncoming attacker more easily, as well as extending his range of passing, he'd be gaining a fair bit of ground in my mind.
I've watched more games from a bloke from Brazil who made his debut just last year and I still don't think my opinion holds any real worth on him. The idea's completely alien to me. It's clearly me who's the odd one not the other way around though!
An emerging player is different from a player whose career is over, and who's held in the sort of esteem as Maradona, don't you reckon? But I agree, ideally you'd have a fair few matches from a fair few seasons to shed light on the player's consistency.
The backspin Maradona could put into a pass... The way he could lift a pass over the defence straight to feet in a crowded space. The way he could fecking volley those passes over the defence straight to feet. No one else could pass the ball like that.
Messi is getting really really good at those through balls though and is definitely the best 'second wave' attacker of the ball I've ever seen.
PS. I am wanking as I type this.
Personally I think Maradona employed him too deep and he wasn't constantly able to influence the final third like he does for Barca.
He was playing like a deep lying playmaker which although he's good at it isn't his best position.
I've watched those games again and the dribblings are all there, so is the passing and the vision, he also hit the wood work a couple of times.
He was still a stand out performer in the world cup 2010 if people are willing to be objective and put all dislike aside.
For me it's like Maradona in 82, revered as the best player in the world and ddin't live up to the hype for one reason or another.
It's perfectly set up for the next world cup for Messi to do his thing at his peak just like Dona in 86.
The way Messi is playing under this new coach is as close to his Barca form you'll get.
Personally I think there's a certain air of inievitability about Messi in Brazil.
against serbia 2006 wc
he scored one and gave another to crespo
one day, someone said, "Messi doesn't play as good for argentina as he does for barcelona" wich is correct, but from that, people started saying that messi doesn't play well for argentina
wich is not
Absolutely but then your opinion's already been shaped to a big extent from the esteem he's held in, from the other opinions on him you've read. I'd just think it's hard to get an idea of his consistency, one of the most important assets in a player's armoury. It gives you more than enough of an idea about his ability and capabilities - which is obviously why people can be so certain on who's a more talented player, and rightly so - though!