Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[The holy trinity 68]

Are you awarded extra points for scoring a difficult goal?

We all know they are both exceptional match winners, but because they are so close on individual awards, team awards, records, goals and assists, to be able to discuss who is better you then have to look beyond the stats and figures.

Messi is better at most things, including better assist provision. Messi is better at solo assists and less reliant on team mates to give him the ball at the edge of the box to assists a team mate.

 

[Daysleeper]

what is it with you Messi brigade and the gross over-rating of fat Ronaldo?

I agree with you on this one Cal, R9 may have had an incredible peak, but ronaldo of today wins it for me due to his insane consistency

 

[Pink Moon]

In CL:

Some selected showcase:

Last season:

Obviously the quality is not at Messi level, but most of them are not as bad as just “deflection” and “shots rebound”.

This'll probably be dismissed as me being a hater but see that flick assist for Rooney (40 seconds in the 2nd vid). That wasn't meant. It was for Evra overlapping him IMO.

 

[PuyolC]

His job description as a Wide Forward is to cut in and score goals. His job is to get on to the end of things.
It doesn't matter how he assists, as long as he does assist.
The fact that he also creates so many opportunities with his passing, off-the-ball-runs and shots that goalkeepers can't handle makes him part of the same tier as Messi.

The way some people talk about him is as if he is a glorified Jamie Vardy.

Messi creates much more than Ronaldo, so I don't know what's your point.

 

[Pink Moon]

Presumably the Ronaldo is better camp think Gerd Muller was better than Johan Cruyff too? I'd genuinely be interested to hear their thoughts on that.

 

[Kinsella]

Are you awarded extra points for scoring a difficult goal?

In a debate over who the better player is - Yes.

Duh!

what is it with you Messi brigade and the gross over-rating of fat Ronaldo?

I agree with you on this one Cal, R9 may have had an incredible peak, but ronaldo of today wins it for me due to his insane consistency

(Fat) Ronaldo gets mentioned in the same way that Mike Tyson gets mentioned in similar debates over boxers. The prime of a sportsperson, that devastating talent or potential witnessed, leaves an indelible impression in the mind. So, when people say things like C Ronaldo isn't even the best Ronaldo, that's where that comes from. Simply put - C Ronaldo doesn't have that wow factor relative to the other greats, it's his goalscoring consistency that's incredible. (Although I would say a lot of his headed goals have indeed wowed me)

I too put C Ronaldo over (fat) Ronaldo in these Goat stakes, but when it comes to who I think was better I'd definitely choose the latter.

 

[Ishdalar]

I need a video of ROnaldo's assists, to see if he has the same ability to assist like Messi


Oh, wait, I remember now that I posted a video here and he was ridiculous assisting, most of his assist weren't even assists like Ronaldo shots and another guy takes the deflection lol

Don't worry guys, I'll do the "dreadful" task of watching the Real Madrid 121 goal season (relevant sample pool, I think) to see, at a glance, how his assists were skewed


So, 12 La Liga assists per Wikipedia, to my subjective standards which are Chance created, Low effort (normal pass that the teammate turns into an assist by a dribble, long shot, etc) and stat padded (grazing a ball en route to other player, etc)

8 from created chances (most of them, crosses)
2 from low effort (one to each Benzema and Higuain)
1 stat padded (shot deflected on him I think it was), I'm missing one and watched the vid twice, so either I'm not locating one assist, or is another graze, in a goal scored by Marcelo

Not a fraud by any means, he just shows that beyond his scoring prowess, he's still, at the core of his skill, the guy that once was the best winger in the world, no one can take that from him except age.
Also, fun fact, after watching that video it was already clear the Higuain needed to leave that team, kinda seems both him and Cris are fighting for some chances, and ignoring each other while having their teammate open (Higuain is the biggest offender, as he obviusly had a chip on his shoulder and wanted to show he could do it by himself instead of feeding goals to Cris that should've been fed to him, positioning-wise)

Then, you can compare that with Leo in the same season


25 created chances (most of them dribbling past 1/2 players, or attracting 3 defenders that create a gap on the side of the field Messi assists to)
3 from low effort

We're talking of what probably was their peak year for both of them (or as close as it gets) and if you bear to watch both videos (couldn't find one for Ronaldo assists only) comparing their assists is like comparing Antonio Valencia vs Michael Laudrup... no one denies that you could achieve great things with Beckham crossing and Jan Koller as the 9, but they won't lit up a stadium like Laudrup and Romario did on their day, ability to execute difficult things with ease is one of the trademarks of the greatest, imo.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

what is it with you Messi brigade and the gross over-rating of fat Ronaldo?

What is it with you being unable to debate in good faith without acting like a 8 year old jerk with your name calling?

 

[Ishdalar]

what is it with you Messi brigade and the gross over-rating of fat Ronaldo?

You can't over-rate Ronaldo Nazario.

Like I said days ago, for a fanbase so keen on deeming Ronaldo as the best due to his UCL performances, not putting Ronaldo in the same tier after what he did at WC just tells how biased in the "top level" argument you guys are using.

Winning a Worlc Cup it's 4 times harder than a UCL (just based on the amount of chances a player has to play one on his career), dominating 2 of them, being top scorer twice, one final and a title scoring twice in the final is something that no one has matched at UCL club level so far if we were to extrapolate, there's nothing more "clutch" than that.

 

[Ishdalar]

In CL:

Some selected showcase:

Last season:

Obviously the quality is not at Messi level, but most of them are not as bad as just “deflection” and “shots rebound”.

If you go for "best of" compilations you're not going to get deflections and shots rebounded.

But even in your last video, from 12 assists, 5 of them are deflections, shots deflected or a poor pass that randomly ends in the feet of isco, almost 50% are literally the things you're trying to defend him against.

I get that everyone wants to defend his favourite player, I'm the first one doing it, but the assist topic doesn't have any grounds to be compared, neither in output or difficulty of the assists.

 

[RedRonaldo]

If you go for "best of" compilations you're not going to get deflections and shots rebounded.

But even in your last video, from 12 assists, 5 of them are deflections, shots deflected or a poor pass that randomly ends in the feet of isco, almost 50% are literally the things you're trying to defend him against.

I get that everyone wants to defend his favourite player, I'm the first one doing it, but the assist topic doesn't have any grounds to be compared, neither in output or difficulty of the assists.

I am not saying his assist are mostly as great as Messi, I am merely pointing out not most of his assist are deflection or shots rebound, which is a ridiculous thing to say.

For example, he has total around 38 assists in CL, the first video already show 20 of them.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Is it fair to say Shooting, Passing and Dribbling are the 3 main things for an attacking player?

Messi would get 30/30
Ronaldo could get no more than 28/30 from even your most hardcore fan. His overall passing ability is at absolute best an 8/10.

 

[Isotope]

If you go for "best of" compilations you're not going to get deflections and shots rebounded.

But even in your last video, from 12 assists, 5 of them are deflections, shots deflected or a poor pass that randomly ends in the feet of isco, almost 50% are literally the things you're trying to defend him against.

I get that everyone wants to defend his favourite player, I'm the first one doing it, but the assist topic doesn't have any grounds to be compared, neither in output or difficulty of the assists.

Messi has had Eto'o, Neymar and Suarez to feed, while Ronaldo with 'only' Benzema and Higuain.

 

[Enigma_87]

what is it with you Messi brigade and the gross over-rating of fat Ronaldo?

Not really overrating him. Peak vs peak Fenomeno is still better in my eyes. Of course if you consider career achievements and overall consistency of course Cristiano takes it.

 

[Semiarty]

Messi has had Eto'o, Neymar and Suarez to feed, while Ronaldo with 'only' Benzema and Higuain.

Clearly you don't watch Barcelona's matches, otherwise you wouldn't be giving such arguments. If only Neymar and Suarez were as clinical as you make them out to be, Messi would have had 1.5x(if not larger) more assists at the moment...

 

[Spoony]

It is clear that Messi is a better footballer than Cristiano , even i dare to say that he is not even the best Ronaldo

Pretty much fact.

 

[SirMonteyne]

if one of them is really at GOAT level then he should be able to win world cup, the GOAT is an extremely high level. Team with GOAT player has to be shoulder above any other national teams, same goes for club football. What I have seen is that teams with Ronaldo won every major cups in last two or three years. The Answer will be decided in this summer.

 

[Isotope]

Clearly you don't watch Barcelona's matches, otherwise you wouldn't be giving such arguments. If only Neymar and Suarez were as clinical as you make them out to be, Messi would have had 1.5x(if not larger) more assists at the moment...

Clearly you don't watch Madrid as well. Benzema and Higuain...

 

[Semiarty]

Clearly you don't watch Madrid as well. Benzema and Higuain...

I didn't say anything about Benzema or Higuain, since it is true. I just argued your point about Neymar and Suarez being great clinical goalscorers(in the context of receiving passes from Messi and converting them to goals).

 

[adexkola]

You can't over-rate Ronaldo Nazario.

Like I said days ago, for a fanbase so keen on deeming Ronaldo as the best due to his UCL performances, not putting Ronaldo in the same tier after what he did at WC just tells how biased in the "top level" argument you guys are using.

Winning a Worlc Cup it's 4 times harder than a UCL (just based on the amount of chances a player has to play one on his career), dominating 2 of them, being top scorer twice, one final and a title scoring twice in the final is something that no one has matched at UCL club level so far if we were to extrapolate, there's nothing more "clutch" than that.

That's a good point.

 

[SCP]

Zidane was not better than Xavi.

What a joke, but this thread isn't about them.

 

[bebeanderson]

I can relate but I did mention that younger Cristiano was a beast and not a pure goal scorer. However, I think the odd thing with him is that in his very soung years, he was a "showboater" with much talent but not enough output, just like many of his type. However, he changed and became much more efficient. So efficient that he really stood out. I have never seen development like this. Comparable players liek Robinho, Quaresma, Denilson and so on took completely different roads and this is what made Cristiano so special. Yet, he kind of became possessed with this efficiency thing and more and more he drifted away to primarily being a goalscorer and the other aspects of his game began to fade away. Therefore, I always found that there was a very short intersection of his efficient and genius self. Probably his last two Manchester United years and the "CR9" years. I agree that this was his peak but I think he won't be remembered for it since the majority of his "great seasons" he actually was a poacher, albeit not extreme as he is now. Thus I believe that it is somehow his own fault because he actively chose to adapt his game.

I also think that you should not only call out the Messi supporters in this thread. In fact, the Ronaldo supporters are those who constantly bring in goal statistics and reduce the whole discussion to this topic. Here are many who think that his last season for Madrid was his best simply because he scored these goals in the finals of the CL. For me, this is just silly since his younger self was so much more influential and Messi still is, too. They are effectively putting that much emphasis on his poacher aspect.
This is also why I think that many who think Messi is better downplay Ronaldo to a pure goalscorer. If you support Messi, you simply feel the need to point out that goalscoring aloneshould not be enough.



I think it is silly that team trophies are so decisive for individual trophies. The thing is, the Balon Dor has been the definition of double standards for over a decade. It started with Cannavaro being awarded the price over Ronaldinho when he clearly wasn't the best player. I never understood the idea behind honoring the best player of the most successful team but if you decide to do so, then stick with it. However, they didn't. Otherwise, Messi and Ronaldo would have had some trophies less. I geniunely believe that if the best player had gotten the awards then Cristiano would be at two and the rest would have gone to Messi. However, if it is about team performances, they would both have gotten less and Iniesta, Xavi, Sneijder, Robben, Schweinsteiger, Neuer, Kroos, Ribery and so on should have taken away a few of their Balon Dors.
Yet, they didn't. They adapt their criteria depending on their current agenda and I think it is totally silly. Can't take the Balon Dor serious anymore because of that. Total double standards.

Robinho is ahead of Denilson and Quaresma. Dude's underrated because of his hype.

 

[Pocho]

Clearly you don't watch Madrid as well. Benzema and Higuain...

Real Madrid always played for Ronaldo, on the other hand Messi always played for Barcelona.

 

[Ishdalar]

Messi has had Eto'o, Neymar and Suarez to feed, while Ronaldo with 'only' Benzema and Higuain.

You'd expect Benzema and Bale (players known from being great goalscorers before joining Real Madrid) to improve their numbers in a dominant team, not to equal or even reduce them.

Benzema broke past 30 goals in his first whole season as a starter, only managed to do that once for Real Madrid in 9 seasons, with his record being in 2012
Bale scored 26 his last season at Spurs, has never reached that number again for Real Madrid (and he played more games his first 2 seasons at real, than any other at Tottenham)
Higuain left Real Madrid for Napoli, scored at his RM average on first season, and has scored 29, 38 and 32 since then, three marks that beat his best years at Real.

If Ronaldo were an equal creative force to Messi, those 3 guys alone should score MORE at Real Madrid with Marcelo, Modric, Kroos, etc... than equal or less, Suarez joins Barcelona and almost doubles (59) his best season at Liverpool, Neymar, a player that had doubts about his style "adapting" to Europe, scores 39 on his second season (and the bunch he missed), Eto'o reached his best Barcelona season with Messi, only equaled by his 10/11 Inter run (first season at Inter, he "forgot" 20 goals between Barcelona and Milan)

And the same can be said about Fabregas (3 of his 4 best scoring seasons with Messi) or Pedro (he has 4 seasons above his Chelsea stats in Barcelona, with the +/- between best season at both clubs being +10 with Messi). The only players I can think that struggled alongside Messi to show their best version were Villa and Ibrahimovic, Villa lost 5 goals on the swap between Barcelona and Valencia, then broke his leg the next season, and Ibra lost 8 goals on the swap, but his Minutes/goal ratio was similar (143@Inter, 156@Barcelona).

One player shows a trend of "hindering" other top players scoring ratio, and the other shows that can even enhance further their numbers, is that so hard to understand?.

 

[Pocho]

You'd expect Benzema and Bale (players known from being great goalscorers before joining Real Madrid) to improve their numbers in a dominant team, not to equal or even reduce them.

Benzema broke past 30 goals in his first whole season as a starter, only managed to do that once for Real Madrid in 9 seasons, with his record being in 2012
Bale scored 26 his last season at Spurs, has never reached that number again for Real Madrid (and he played more games his first 2 seasons at real, than any other at Tottenham)
Higuain left Real Madrid for Napoli, scored at his RM average on first season, and has scored 29, 38 and 32 since then, three marks that beat his best years at Real.

If Ronaldo were an equal creative force to Messi, those 3 guys alone should score MORE at Real Madrid with Marcelo, Modric, Kroos, etc... than equal or less, Suarez joins Barcelona and almost doubles (59) his best season at Liverpool, Neymar, a player that had doubts about his style "adapting" to Europe, scores 39 on his second season (and the bunch he missed), Eto'o reached his best Barcelona season with Messi, only equaled by his 10/11 Inter run (first season at Inter, he "forgot" 20 goals between Barcelona and Milan)

And the same can be said about Fabregas (3 of his 4 best scoring seasons with Messi) or Pedro (he has 4 seasons above his Chelsea stats in Barcelona, with the +/- between best season at both clubs being +10 with Messi). The only players I can think that struggled alongside Messi to show their best version were Villa and Ibrahimovic, Villa lost 5 goals on the swap between Barcelona and Valencia, then broke his leg the next season, and Ibra lost 8 goals on the swap, but his Minutes/goal ratio was similar (143@Inter, 156@Barcelona).

One player shows a trend of "hindering" other top players scoring ratio, and the other shows that can even enhance further their numbers, is that so hard to understand?.

Beautiful! Can we close this "debate", I feel sorry for Ronaldo.

 

[Isotope]

You'd expect Benzema and Bale (players known from being great goalscorers before joining Real Madrid) to improve their numbers in a dominant team, not to equal or even reduce them.

Benzema broke past 30 goals in his first whole season as a starter, only managed to do that once for Real Madrid in 9 seasons, with his record being in 2012
Bale scored 26 his last season at Spurs, has never reached that number again for Real Madrid (and he played more games his first 2 seasons at real, than any other at Tottenham)
Higuain left Real Madrid for Napoli, scored at his RM average on first season, and has scored 29, 38 and 32 since then, three marks that beat his best years at Real.

If Ronaldo were an equal creative force to Messi, those 3 guys alone should score MORE at Real Madrid with Marcelo, Modric, Kroos, etc... than equal or less, Suarez joins Barcelona and almost doubles (59) his best season at Liverpool, Neymar, a player that had doubts about his style "adapting" to Europe, scores 39 on his second season (and the bunch he missed), Eto'o reached his best Barcelona season with Messi, only equaled by his 10/11 Inter run (first season at Inter, he "forgot" 20 goals between Barcelona and Milan)

And the same can be said about Fabregas (3 of his 4 best scoring seasons with Messi) or Pedro (he has 4 seasons above his Chelsea stats in Barcelona, with the +/- between best season at both clubs being +10 with Messi). The only players I can think that struggled alongside Messi to show their best version were Villa and Ibrahimovic, Villa lost 5 goals on the swap between Barcelona and Valencia, then broke his leg the next season, and Ibra lost 8 goals on the swap, but his Minutes/goal ratio was similar (143@Inter, 156@Barcelona).

One player shows a trend of "hindering" other top players scoring ratio, and the other shows that can even enhance further their numbers, is that so hard to understand?.

Benzema is (almost) finished as a striker, and has been wank for a while. Bale was awesome for while, until his injuries taking his pace. It has nothing to do with Ronaldo. Then Higuain is famous as serial bottler, and his goalscoring record is inflated by playing in Serie A.

With all your nicely written argument, you can't deny that Benzema and Higuain are a far below the level of Eto'o, Neymar and Suarez.

 

[KirkDuyt]

You'd expect Benzema and Bale (players known from being great goalscorers before joining Real Madrid) to improve their numbers in a dominant team, not to equal or even reduce them.

Benzema broke past 30 goals in his first whole season as a starter, only managed to do that once for Real Madrid in 9 seasons, with his record being in 2012
Bale scored 26 his last season at Spurs, has never reached that number again for Real Madrid (and he played more games his first 2 seasons at real, than any other at Tottenham)
Higuain left Real Madrid for Napoli, scored at his RM average on first season, and has scored 29, 38 and 32 since then, three marks that beat his best years at Real.

If Ronaldo were an equal creative force to Messi, those 3 guys alone should score MORE at Real Madrid with Marcelo, Modric, Kroos, etc... than equal or less, Suarez joins Barcelona and almost doubles (59) his best season at Liverpool, Neymar, a player that had doubts about his style "adapting" to Europe, scores 39 on his second season (and the bunch he missed), Eto'o reached his best Barcelona season with Messi, only equaled by his 10/11 Inter run (first season at Inter, he "forgot" 20 goals between Barcelona and Milan)

And the same can be said about Fabregas (3 of his 4 best scoring seasons with Messi) or Pedro (he has 4 seasons above his Chelsea stats in Barcelona, with the +/- between best season at both clubs being +10 with Messi). The only players I can think that struggled alongside Messi to show their best version were Villa and Ibrahimovic, Villa lost 5 goals on the swap between Barcelona and Valencia, then broke his leg the next season, and Ibra lost 8 goals on the swap, but his Minutes/goal ratio was similar (143@Inter, 156@Barcelona).

One player shows a trend of "hindering" other top players scoring ratio, and the other shows that can even enhance further their numbers, is that so hard to understand?.

This is a very good post. Never thought of it that way.

Ronaldo just scores fir the 10th consecutive cl match in a row. This debate aside he’s a frcking animal

 

[kidbob]

Prime example for the argument here. Ronaldo scores a great goal but is then invisible for the rest of the half. No effect on the game from the 2nd minute onwards. Take their careers as a whole and Ronaldo used to effect the game to the same level he scored at up until the last 3-4 years. Messi has affected the game from his debut onwards and has a comparable overall output to Ronaldo.

I'm a United fan and love Ronaldo for that reason alone but he's simply not as good a footballer as Messi full stop. Look at it on a simple level. Take away the trophies either has won and simply judge their ability as footballers on the football they've produced alone. Messi is the better player.

The question isn't who is the more successful player, it's who is the better at playing the game and the answer is clear.

Was Ji Sung Park a better player than Gazza because he was much more successful?

Edit: before I get attacked for hating on Ronaldo, he in my opinion is up there on his own just slightly below the Maradona, Pele and Messi tier. He's an absolute animal of a player and is the clear 4th best of all time IMO.

 

[Pink Moon]

Ronaldo just scores fir the 10th consecutive cl match in a row. This debate aside he’s a frcking animal

He is. I truly believe he's a robot.

The first half of this Juve game sums up why I don't think it's unfair to label him a poacher. Wonderful movement in the box and a great finish for the goal and aside from that he's done absolutely nothing. He'll probably do the same in the second half and get another goal.

Ronaldo fans get angry at the Gerd comparisons but surely they can see why they arise in the first place? FWIW, he's definitely a more talented footballer than Muller could ever have dreamt of being, don't get me wrong, but is his style of play all that different from some of the best pure goalscorers we've seen?

 

[kidbob]

In a debate over who the better player is - Yes.

Duh!





(Fat) Ronaldo gets mentioned in the same way that Mike Tyson gets mentioned in similar debates over boxers. The prime of a sportsperson, that devastating talent or potential witnessed, leaves an indelible impression in the mind. So, when people say things like C Ronaldo isn't even the best Ronaldo, that's where that comes from. Simply put - C Ronaldo doesn't have that wow factor relative to the other greats, it's his goalscoring consistency that's incredible. (Although I would say a lot of his headed goals have indeed wowed me)

I too put C Ronaldo over (fat) Ronaldo in these Goat stakes, but when it comes to who I think was better I'd definitely choose the latter.

Ronaldo has definitely had the 'wow factor' in his career. Go back and look at his long range goals and free kicks alone. Not to mention his dribbling ability earlier in his career. He, like all GOATS, have a definite wow factor.

 

[evil_geko]

Real Madrid always played for Ronaldo, on the other hand Messi always played for Barcelona.

Pretty much this.

 

[KirkDuyt]

And now he does this

 

[Daysleeper]

WONDERFUL goal from Ronaldo, superb

 

[VorZakone]

Honestly, it's been a while since Messi has dominated the CL knockout matches. Ronaldo has been superior to Messi in that regard.

 

[cyberman]

This is scandalous.
The world cup is the ultimate due to the best players in the world playing in one tournament but Ronaldo is dominating sides that are better than those in international football on a regular basis.
There's no world cup that has had a player dominate its elite competition like Ronaldo is doing now.

 

[prateik]

This is not even a contest anymore.

 

[Acheron]

There's no world cup that has had a player dominate its elite competition like Ronaldo is doing now.

I quite like what Zidane did for France in 2006, although he doesn't has the same style of Ronaldo nor Messi I think he did a lot for his team and carried them in a lot of instances. But yeah, I have never seen something like what Ronaldo has been doing to UCL teams the last few seasons.

 

[IFC 1905]

I have no doubts that Ronaldo is the greatest player in CL history

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I have no doubts that Ronaldo is the greatest player in CL history

Does that include the old European Cup though?

 

[IFC 1905]

This is not even a contest anymore.

It has never been a contest lol, one is a better player than the other.

A bycicle goal ain't gonna change that.