Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I just quoted the poll (I voted for Zidane FYI)
Zidane in full flow is probably second to messi for me in terms of how much enjoyment I got from watching him.
For me it is football heresy to suggest Iniesta or Xavi are better than Zidane. But I liked more Laudrup.
That's how I feel about Ronaldinho
@Posh Red there are no pro Ronaldos here, only pro Messis.
Xavi and Iniesta were the 2nd and 3rd best and most important players for arguably the greatest club side in history.For me it is football heresy to suggest Iniesta or Xavi are better than Zidane. But I liked more Laudrup.
They were also the catalyst for Spain winning 3 major tournaments in a row.
Without them two, Barca and Spain would not have been as successful.
They won a lot more than Zidane.
And Zidane won 1 WC, lost another 1, won 1 EC, won 1 Champions League, lost 2 finals, won Serie A titles, La Liga, and the list could go on. Oh, and small detail, he just was better than the 2 together.
This is the jersey from the locker room that he didn’t wear.
Just the impression I've got reading through he thread. And if that Cal guy is not pro Ronaldo...
All fantastic players, and I liked Riquelme (a lot), as well as Enzo Francescoli, Zico, Pablo Aimar, Rui Costa, Matthew Le Tissier, Alvaro Recoba, Giuseppe Giannini, Juan Sebastian Veron, Enzo Scifo, Platini, Cantona, Jay-Jay Okocha, Roberto Baggio, Glen Hoddle, Roy Wegerle (yes, him!), Davor Suker, Denis Bergkamp, Juninho (both Lyon one who is the best free-kick taker I’ve ever seen and the Boro little genius), Robbie Fowler, and a load more that alcohol and other intoxicants currently preclude me from remembering.For me it is football heresy to suggest Iniesta or Xavi are better than Zidane. But I liked more Laudrup.
The point is the infernal obsession some have with ranking players is masochistic in the sense that the fanaticism stops people from enjoying the myriad of other players that they’ll surely enjoy.
I also like defenders, and if you can’t also see the genius in players such as Maldini, Baresi, Sammer, Irwin, Thuram, Javier Zanetti (one of my all time favourite footballers) et al, I do feel you’re missing the point of enjoying a meaningless pursuit such as watching sport. But I’m boring myself now so I’ll wish you all happy viewing and civilised debating...
Iniesta and Xavi are the two most declarated players in Spanish football history.
Quite close in who was better between Zidane and Iniesta, but no contest with Xavi in my opinion.
Xavi won 31 trophies with his teams in his career. The best player for spain in that time and only 2nd to Messi for Barca.
Xavi was the first player to assist in two separate European Championship finals.
He won the IFFHS Worlds best playmaker award for four years: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011. Xavi has been included in the UEFA team of the year for five years: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and has been voted into the FIFA World XI on six occasions: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013.
Zidane was named the FIFA world player of the year three times, in 1998, 2000 and 2003, and won the 1998 Ballon D’or. However Xavi would have won a few if it wasn’t for Messi and Ron. If Messi and Ron were playing back when Zidane played he wouldn’t have won them no doubt.
Zidane only won 15 career trophies with his teams and never peaked until his late 20’s. Xavi peaked at around the age of 24 and stayed their for 10 years.
Can we get this back on topic?
Yeah it's a different type of preference, I guess. Iniesta play more sexy football than Scholes direct style, but i prefer to watch the later any time of the day. Barcelona played sexy tiki taka in late 2000's, but I prefer the powerful but effective Bayern 2012/13 or United 1999, 2007.
Weird, but cool yeh.
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Like what?
Ronaldo is the highest assister in the CL so its not as if he can't assist.
Since he joined Real Madrid, he is also the 4th highest assister in the Spanish League.
Its just that as a Wide Forward with amazing finishing capabilities, the burden is on him to score rather than assist.
Edit: He is also the highest assister for Real Madrid in La Liga and CL each.
Not bad for someone perceived as selfish and considering who all have played for Madrid.
I have seen both Maradona and Messi play, I rate Maradona better player than Messi with my “eyes”. Actually with my “eyes”, I rate Ronaldinho (at his peak) higher than Messi too, but that is “disregard” of stats/goals/records/consistency of course, as most here think these aren’t important at all (when talk about Ronaldo).
They are important, but with a decent pair of eyes it doesn’t take much to see that Messi is the better player in comparison to Ronaldo.
The game that got me into football.
This is the jersey from the locker room that he didn’t wear. I paid good $ for it. That was a 10/10 performance of which Zidane had many and Messi has had many, and will have many more.
I can fully see messi replicating that Zidane performance in 2022 against a big name
Messi vs Madrid at the end of last season (3-2, 2 goals, got Ramos sent off) was as good.
do you consider Maradona and Ronaldinho better than Cristiano with your eyes
and goals, records, achievements and consistency are very important apart from the raw talent and overall contribution a player makes during an actual match. And it is not entirely disregarded by people apart few Cris haters, but when both are equal in terms of those, the raw talent and how the player plays do influence people.
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I never saw Maradona play..but Ronaldinho at his peak is the best footballer I have seen.
Obviously being the greatest of all time requires you to perform at that high level for several seasons.. Ronaldinho didnt do that..
Obviously being the greatest of all time requires you to perform at that high level for several seasons.. Ronaldinho didnt do that..
Yes, my subjective “eyes” say so, disregard of everything else.
I think with these kind of discussions its always a little bit about efficiency.
Zidane was probably an overall better footballer than Iniesta. More complete, better skills and passing range, shots, heading, general goal threat and so on. However, for me it is clear as day that Iniesta used his abilities (which are still gigantic) more efficiently. He flourished in Guardiola's and Spain's systems and accomplished unbelievable things. I've seen Zidane having really bad games occassionally where he had lots and lots of possessionen losses through bad decision making (primarily passes that he chose to play forward too early). Especially in his time at Real Madrid he struggled many times which gets a little bit overlooked in hindsight.
So, Zidane was the better footballer ability-wise but I believe Iniesta surpassed him through his decision making. And it is the same for someone like Ronaldinho and Messi. In regards of technique, Messi doesn't come close to him. Zidane and the Brazilian Ronaldo are also better than Leo in that. Actually, ability wise I think El Phenomenom outperforms La Pulga in both physical and technical abilities. But when it comes to impact in a game, Messi outperforms them all because he uses his abilities better than anyone of these players - and he does it more consistently. I think Zidane's performance in 2006 is actually pretty comparable to what Messi did at the Copa 2016 and the WC 2014. Both carried their teams into the final but lost it despite great performances. The only thing is expectations. Because noone expected 34 year old Zizou to do it, he gets much more credit for it than Messi.
The thing is, Messi outperforms Cristiano in technical abilities and is on par in terms of efficiency.
It is honestly paradox to argue that Ronaldinho in his peak was better than Messi and suggest at the same time that Cristiano edges it for you. Because in order to place Ronaldinho (my all time favourite player and boyhood idol by the way. Even before YouTube, I downloaded videos in 240pp of him and practiced his skill moves day in day out back then) before Messi (I can understand this opinion, had it myself for many years) you have to use criteria that definitely place Messi before Cristiano since the only thing Ronaldo has over respectively on par with him are scorers.
Zidane was probably an overall better footballer than Iniesta. More complete, better skills and passing range, shots, heading, general goal threat and so on. However, for me it is clear as day that Iniesta used his abilities (which are still gigantic) more efficiently. He flourished in Guardiola's and Spain's systems and accomplished unbelievable things. I've seen Zidane having really bad games occassionally where he had lots and lots of possessionen losses through bad decision making (primarily passes that he chose to play forward too early). Especially in his time at Real Madrid he struggled many times which gets a little bit overlooked in hindsight.
So, Zidane was the better footballer ability-wise but I believe Iniesta surpassed him through his decision making. And it is the same for someone like Ronaldinho and Messi. In regards of technique, Messi doesn't come close to him. Zidane and the Brazilian Ronaldo are also better than Leo in that. Actually, ability wise I think El Phenomenom outperforms La Pulga in both physical and technical abilities. But when it comes to impact in a game, Messi outperforms them all because he uses his abilities better than anyone of these players - and he does it more consistently. I think Zidane's performance in 2006 is actually pretty comparable to what Messi did at the Copa 2016 and the WC 2014. Both carried their teams into the final but lost it despite great performances. The only thing is expectations. Because noone expected 34 year old Zizou to do it, he gets much more credit for it than Messi.
The thing is, Messi outperforms Cristiano in technical abilities and is on par in terms of efficiency.
It is honestly paradox to argue that Ronaldinho in his peak was better than Messi and suggest at the same time that Cristiano edges it for you. Because in order to place Ronaldinho (my all time favourite player and boyhood idol by the way. Even before YouTube, I downloaded videos in 240pp of him and practiced his skill moves day in day out back then) before Messi (I can understand this opinion, had it myself for many years) you have to use criteria that definitely place Messi before Cristiano since the only thing Ronaldo has over respectively on par with him are scorers.
It’s really up to how people set up their criteria to fit in their agenda in these type of discussions. Popular opinions nowadays seems swifting more to their own “eyes” to judge who is better/greater, I only follow that line of logic to draw conclusion in a subjective yet honest manner.
Zidane was not better than Xavi.
Fair enough. For me it is about consequence in your arguments. If someone says Ronaldinho/Maradona were better than Messi because of their abilities on the ball despite scoring less, I am okay with that. But if they proceed to place Cristiano ahead of Messi because he scores more, it gets ridiculous for me and reveals that the one saying it is not able to look past his personal preferrences. I hate double standards.
I can understand it up until some point. During the time Messi won his first four Ballon D'Ors I didn't really appreciate him. Barcelona got rid of Ronaldinho for him and he played so differently. I saw him playing and thought he had no skills, simply outran his opponents and scored. Only a few years after Ronaldinho's prime the whole world was talking about Messi, Cristiano and their goal records. For me, solely because they scored that much everyone suddenly placed them above Ronaldinho. I think it was around this time when the whole "greatest player" discussion got so focused on goals alone and got really annoyed of it. Well, I still am, but I came to realize that Messi was much more than goals although he didn't really do flashy things on the ball like Ronaldinho. With Cristiano it is a different story. I initially preferred him, to be honest, because his style was closer to Ronaldinho although I felt like he does this stuff only for the gallery and without any sort of end product. Just piss taking for the sake of it.
But at some point you have to overcome your personal preferrences. Messi wasn't as flashy but his impact on the game is just gigantic. I think after all, even without his goal record he would be better at playmaking, dribbling etc. as the likes of Ronaldinho, Zidane, Maradona, Zico, Laudrup and so on. He is simply pure efficiency. At their very best, all these players are probably on par but then there's Messi's longevity. It is just incredible that he keeps up this level for such a long time.
Another example of the Messi brigade, your mind is already made up of the future regardless of what happens, what if Messi suffered a major injury tomorrow and Ronaldo obliterates the WC? That wouldn't change your mind, you're already stuck with what you believe.
It's just a like a ****.
[/QUOTE]
No **** at all. Of course I will be judging by what I've seen so far and not what could hypotethically happen in the future. If Messi gets injury tomorrow and Ronaldo leads Portugal to WC success being their top goalscorer, yes I will change my mind. The same will apply though if Martial leads France to three consecutive WCs being top goalscorer in each competition - I will probably rate him higher than anyone in football history. Does it mean that at the minute I rate him higher than Ronaldo or Messi - no, of course.
It's just a like a ****.
[/QUOTE]
No **** at all. Of course I will be judging by what I've seen so far and not what could hypotethically happen in the future. If Messi gets injury tomorrow and Ronaldo leads Portugal to WC success being their top goalscorer, yes I will change my mind. The same will apply though if Martial leads France to three consecutive WCs being top goalscorer in each competition - I will probably rate him higher than anyone in football history. Does it mean that at the minute I rate him higher than Ronaldo or Messi - no, of course.
I can't understand how some people are using the more goals Ronaldo has compared to Messi as an argument for him being the better player. As far as I see it they have more than 2 years age difference which may unsurprisingly result in Messi catching up with that 40 goals difference. I doubt though if Ronaldo will ever catch Messi's statistics in terms of assists.
I personally would rate Messi the best player I’ve ever watched, but not by much, under both my subjective + objective criteria.
But on purely subjective basis (flashy+wow factor+footballing+peak+legacy), I would rate Maradona and Ronaldinho higher (Maradona>Ronaldinho>Messi>Ronaldo)
Whereas on purely objective basis (effectiveness+consistency+overall stats/records/achievements+impact on winning), I would rate Messi just as “great” as Ronaldo (Messi=Ronaldo>Maradona>Ronaldinho)
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What do you mean by technique? I would say Ronaldinho was flashier, but Messi his close control is something that is never seen before and I think his touch is also more consistent than that of Ronaldinho. Very weird to say Messi his technique doesn't come close to Ronaldinho if speaking just about controll of the ball.
What made Ronaldinho’s technique so special was that he was probably the most effective player of all time for using a “skill move” effectively. He very rarely did them just to be flashy, instead mostly because it was an effective way of beating his opponent to and he knew he could pull it off.
Ronaldo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pele >> Maradona >> Zidane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi
Don't quote me.
Lulz.....
Mess
Don't quote me.
Lulz.....
Mess
Agreed. Ronaldinho used a myriad of party tricks to evade his marker(s), which was great to watch, but the way Messi bypasses players at will with a sharp body feint and drop of the shoulder in congested areas is something else. It genuinely does look like he's playing in slow motion sometimes:
Can't embed any videos, but this highlights why he's such a special player: Lionel Messi vs 3 or More Players - No Goals - HD
I need a video of ROnaldo's assists, to see if he has the same ability to assist like Messi
Oh, wait, I remember now that I posted a video here and he was ridiculous assisting, most of his assist weren't even assists like Ronaldo shots and another guy takes the deflection lol
It is clear that Messi is a better footballer than Cristiano , even i dare to say that he is not even the best Ronaldo
His job description as a Wide Forward is to cut in and score goals. His job is to get on to the end of things.
It doesn't matter how he assists, as long as he does assist.
The fact that he also creates so many opportunities with his passing, off-the-ball-runs and shots that goalkeepers can't handle makes him part of the same tier as Messi.
The way some people talk about him is as if he is a glorified Jamie Vardy.
Finally!!
Ronaldo passing across the 6 yard box and another player scoring his saved shot is completely different to Messi providing a through ball from having great vision or dribbling past 2/3 players and then laying the ball off for an easy goal.
I have seen many of Ronaldo's assists be a give and go which is then passed across the 6 yard box. It is all well and good saying they have a similar amount of assists throughout their careers when we all know that one type of assist is more difficult than the other.
In CL:
Some selected showcase:
Last season:
Obviously the quality is not at Messi level, but most of them are not as bad as just “deflection” and “shots rebound”.
Are you awarded extra points for scoring a difficult goal?
It´s not about winning, It´s about who is the better player, and certainly is Messi. Villa won the WC and he is not better than Cristiano.[/QUOTE]
We’ve been discussing the GOAT all along, not the BOAT.
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