Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Zehner]

Exactly

Loved that iteration of him. Probably a worse player overall but so exciting to watch. Think my favourite Cristiano version was in his last two United and first two Madrid years.

Quite remarkable how much he has changed as a player. Not sure if there was ever a player on a worldclass level that turned his game around so much. And he even did it twice..

 

[Ecstatic]

Loved that iteration of him. Probably a worse player overall but so exciting to watch. Think my favourite Cristiano version was in his last two United and first two Madrid years.

Quite remarkable how much he has changed as a player. Not sure if there was ever a player on a worldclass level that turned his game around so much. And he even did it twice..

I fully agree with you.

What a fascinating human being when we think how he has changed his game over time.

Regarding the debate Messi vs Cristiano, I simply refuse to choose

 

[Bole Top]

Your posts in this thread are perfect examples of how you are again and again twisting, turning and bending arguments until they fit your narrative.

and not only in this thread. I still remember his post after Suarez scored a goal against fecking Vallacano at the start of the season:

The amount of big away goals Suarez scores in La Liga is ridiculous.

Vallacano, start of the season & the obvious fact that Madrid won't really compete this season, but yeah, big crucial game, no doubt.

it's interesting how the definition of a big game changes depending of which narrative he's supporting

 

[Pocho]

Wrote this post in the La Liga thread but it didn't belong there, so I decided to post it here..



Yeah, of course you weren't talking about Ronaldo. Who are you trying to kid, honestly? In every fecking post of yours one can extract some argument that in one way or another makes Ronaldo look better or Messi look worse. You subtly sneak in those arguments again and again and at some point in the future you bring them up in the actual discussion as if they were facts (something like "Rakitic, ancient-Iniesta and Busquets are a better midfield than Kroos, Modric and Casemiro", "Alba is a better left back than Marcelo" or "Messi's playstyle makes his teams extremely dependent on him" or something along those lines). I'm annoyed of myself that I again took the bait and started this argument with you because it (rightly) annoys many users in here that this discussion is so omnipresent but it is simply impossible to resist the irk to call you out for this kind of stuff.

Your posts in this thread are perfect examples of how you are again and again twisting, turning and bending arguments until they fit your narrative. Messi has played in countless different setups, successfully occupied much more different roles and positions than Ronaldo, can outplay defenses in many more ways than CR7 and so forth, so what's your point? You are completely superficial in one direction ("Argentina and Barca's whole approach consists of giving the ball to Messi and this is of course his fault, he simply makes it incredible hard for tactical geniuses like Martino or Maradona who immediately had unimaginable success once they coached teams in which he wasn't there") and super in-depth in the other ("Yeah, of course Real Madrid struggles now that Ronaldo is gone but here are 7 essays consisting of 63 pages with 547 different reasons why that is actually not the case and everyone who doesn't agree with my argumentation has no clue about football and I will answer them with 50 laughing smileys that document my and Ronaldo's superiority").

By the way, a good description of how versatile Messi actually is this video:


This illustrates how ridiculous those things you claim actually are. Really, I can only repeat what I said in the last post. From time to time one has to reflect what you are actually arguing in this very moment in order to understand how far from reality your claims are. You constantly criticize Messi for being too good for his team. When Barca recently performed underwhelmingly your first instinct was to criticize Messi although he wasn't even on the pitch. You suggested that Rakitic was a better midfielder than fecking Toni Kroos and argued he had a better world cup for Croatia than Luka Modric. You criticized Messi for not being compatible with Dybala yet since Ronaldo plays for Juve the guy can't score for his life and has a siginficantly less important role in the squad. But of course you, and only you, know the true reason for that (which of course isn't the far too obvious explanation that Ronaldo has changed the environment for him but the supposed "fact" that the midfield around Pjanic has coincidently degressed the very moment Ronaldo joined the team). But do you know what my favourite part of that essay was? You said that Dybala scored less because he had to drop deep in order to build up the play from the midfield, the exact role Messi is executing in Barcelona without any negative effect on his productivity. So when the team performs bad, Messi falls back and takes over the responsibility and still manages to finish attacks while Ronaldo stays up front, scores less and leaves the task of initiating attacks to another team mate (who then scores less, too) but somehow this makes Ronaldo more versatile and Messi a challenge for the manager. What the actual f*ck? Unbelievable.

Yet the very moment a Barca fans says something negative about a player other than Messi you are immediately pointing your finger on him and are all like "THERE! Did you see that? He again criticized a Barca player in order to make Messi look better! These Barca fans are completely mental!"

You are really, truly incredible.

Great post. I think that him and Cal? are just trolling us.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Great post. I think that him and Cal? are just trolling us.

Neither of them are. They both continuously make excellent points and both seem reasonably well educated. They are entitled to their opinions, what isn’t on is the belittling of people’s understanding of the game.

 

[Pocho]

Neither of them are. They both continuously make excellent points and both seem reasonably well educated. They are entitled to their opinions, what isn’t on is the belittling of people’s understanding of the game.

They are educated but trolling us all over our faces, and they're doing fine, got to admit.

 

[VJ1762]

I know this is an advert, but man, messi is ridiculous.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Barca is so lucky to have him.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

I know this is an advert, but man, messi is ridiculous.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Barca is so lucky to have him.

Uhh don't think that's real mate

 

[GatoLoco]

Food for thought:

 

[shamans]

It's crazy how far ahead they are from the rest

 

[Cal?]

Food for thought:

CL 1/4 finals and onwards are pointless games compared to CDR, apparently

 

[Righteous Steps]

It’s funny cause I can remember a few semi final/final games where Cr7 performances were pretty sub par, of course he may have scored in a lot of these games saying that..

 

[Cal?]

It’s funny cause I can remember a few semi final/final games where Cr7 performances were pretty sub par, of course he may have scored in a lot of these games saying that..

It helps to get to the SF, final. Messi tends to bottle QF after QF in recent years.

 

[Cheesy]

It helps to get to the SF, final. Messi tends to bottle QF after QF in recent years.

Which is, of course, why it's only in recent years you've come to the opinion Ronaldo's the better player, isn't it?

 

[Shinjch]

Wrote this post in the La Liga thread but it didn't belong there, so I decided to post it here..



Yeah, of course you weren't talking about Ronaldo. Who are you trying to kid, honestly? In every fecking post of yours one can extract some argument that in one way or another makes Ronaldo look better or Messi look worse. You subtly sneak in those arguments again and again and at some point in the future you bring them up in the actual discussion as if they were facts (something like "Rakitic, ancient-Iniesta and Busquets are a better midfield than Kroos, Modric and Casemiro", "Alba is a better left back than Marcelo" or "Messi's playstyle makes his teams extremely dependent on him" or something along those lines). I'm annoyed of myself that I again took the bait and started this argument with you because it (rightly) annoys many users in here that this discussion is so omnipresent but it is simply impossible to resist the irk to call you out for this kind of stuff.

Your posts in this thread are perfect examples of how you are again and again twisting, turning and bending arguments until they fit your narrative. Messi has played in countless different setups, successfully occupied much more different roles and positions than Ronaldo, can outplay defenses in many more ways than CR7 and so forth, so what's your point? You are completely superficial in one direction ("Argentina and Barca's whole approach consists of giving the ball to Messi and this is of course his fault, he simply makes it incredible hard for tactical geniuses like Martino or Maradona who immediately had unimaginable success once they coached teams in which he wasn't there") and super in-depth in the other ("Yeah, of course Real Madrid struggles now that Ronaldo is gone but here are 7 essays consisting of 63 pages with 547 different reasons why that is actually not the case and everyone who doesn't agree with my argumentation has no clue about football and I will answer them with 50 laughing smileys that document my and Ronaldo's superiority").

By the way, a good description of how versatile Messi actually is this video:


This illustrates how ridiculous those things you claim actually are. Really, I can only repeat what I said in the last post. From time to time one has to reflect what you are actually arguing in this very moment in order to understand how far from reality your claims are. You constantly criticize Messi for being too good for his team. When Barca recently performed underwhelmingly your first instinct was to criticize Messi although he wasn't even on the pitch. You suggested that Rakitic was a better midfielder than fecking Toni Kroos and argued he had a better world cup for Croatia than Luka Modric. You criticized Messi for not being compatible with Dybala yet since Ronaldo plays for Juve the guy can't score for his life and has a siginficantly less important role in the squad. But of course you, and only you, know the true reason for that (which of course isn't the far too obvious explanation that Ronaldo has changed the environment for him but the supposed "fact" that the midfield around Pjanic has coincidently degressed the very moment Ronaldo joined the team). But do you know what my favourite part of that essay was? You said that Dybala scored less because he had to drop deep in order to build up the play from the midfield, the exact role Messi is executing in Barcelona without any negative effect on his productivity. So when the team performs bad, Messi falls back and takes over the responsibility and still manages to finish attacks while Ronaldo stays up front, scores less and leaves the task of initiating attacks to another team mate (who then scores less, too) but somehow this makes Ronaldo more versatile and Messi a challenge for the manager. What the actual f*ck? Unbelievable.

Yet the very moment a Barca fans says something negative about a player other than Messi you are immediately pointing your finger on him and are all like "THERE! Did you see that? He again criticized a Barca player in order to make Messi look better! These Barca fans are completely mental!"

You are really, truly incredible.

Excellent post this. Enjoyed it a lot.

 

[Cal?]

Which is, of course, why it's only in recent years you've come to the opinion Ronaldo's the better player, isn't it?

Recent years have proven what I saw all along and very few others did.

 

[Cheesy]

Recent years have proven what I saw all along and very few others did.

That's a cop-out though and proves why the arguments you make tend to be flawed irrespective of who's better - you use stats and trophies to say Ronaldo's better now but fragrantly ignored them when Messi had the upper hand in that regard. They're just a convenient way for you to push a narrative you'd be pushing no matter what they said.

 

[SportingCP96]

Food for thought:

Is their a better big game player in the world ? I think not.

 

[altodevil]

Messi scores in the CL at a higher rate.
Cristiano scores at the same rate as Ruud.

 

[Pocho]

CL 1/4 finals and onwards are pointless games compared to CDR, apparently

And still Messi is the better player, get over it. Zidane was a better player than Raul and he is not even on that list.

 

[Culero]

Food for thought:

Would look more interesting with appearances next to goals.

Cristiano Ronaldo - 121 goals, 158 apps
Lionel Messi - 106 goals, 129 apps
Raul - 71 goals - 142 apps
Benzema - 59 goals, 110 apps
Van Nistelrooy - 56 goals, 73 apps

 

[MADReaLJL]

Would look more interesting with appearances next to goals.

Cristiano Ronaldo - 121 goals, 158 apps
Lionel Messi - 106 goals, 129 apps
Raul - 71 goals - 142 apps
Benzema - 59 goals, 110 apps
Van Nistelrooy - 56 goals, 73 apps

Fair enough. Buy since Ronaldo's first goal in the CL, he's been scoring at higher rate than Messi.

The guy started playing in CL on 2003 and scored his first goal on 2007.

 

[De Portago]

Would look more interesting with appearances next to goals.

Cristiano Ronaldo - 121 goals, 158 apps
Lionel Messi - 106 goals, 129 apps
Raul - 71 goals - 142 apps
Benzema - 59 goals, 110 apps
Van Nistelrooy - 56 goals, 73 apps

RVN's strike rate is extremely impressive for that time period.

 

[Suedesi]

Wrote this post in the La Liga thread but it didn't belong there, so I decided to post it here..



Yeah, of course you weren't talking about Ronaldo. Who are you trying to kid, honestly? In every fecking post of yours one can extract some argument that in one way or another makes Ronaldo look better or Messi look worse. You subtly sneak in those arguments again and again and at some point in the future you bring them up in the actual discussion as if they were facts (something like "Rakitic, ancient-Iniesta and Busquets are a better midfield than Kroos, Modric and Casemiro", "Alba is a better left back than Marcelo" or "Messi's playstyle makes his teams extremely dependent on him" or something along those lines). I'm annoyed of myself that I again took the bait and started this argument with you because it (rightly) annoys many users in here that this discussion is so omnipresent but it is simply impossible to resist the irk to call you out for this kind of stuff.

Your posts in this thread are perfect examples of how you are again and again twisting, turning and bending arguments until they fit your narrative. Messi has played in countless different setups, successfully occupied much more different roles and positions than Ronaldo, can outplay defenses in many more ways than CR7 and so forth, so what's your point? You are completely superficial in one direction ("Argentina and Barca's whole approach consists of giving the ball to Messi and this is of course his fault, he simply makes it incredible hard for tactical geniuses like Martino or Maradona who immediately had unimaginable success once they coached teams in which he wasn't there") and super in-depth in the other ("Yeah, of course Real Madrid struggles now that Ronaldo is gone but here are 7 essays consisting of 63 pages with 547 different reasons why that is actually not the case and everyone who doesn't agree with my argumentation has no clue about football and I will answer them with 50 laughing smileys that document my and Ronaldo's superiority").

By the way, a good description of how versatile Messi actually is this video:


This illustrates how ridiculous those things you claim actually are. Really, I can only repeat what I said in the last post. From time to time one has to reflect what you are actually arguing in this very moment in order to understand how far from reality your claims are. You constantly criticize Messi for being too good for his team. When Barca recently performed underwhelmingly your first instinct was to criticize Messi although he wasn't even on the pitch. You suggested that Rakitic was a better midfielder than fecking Toni Kroos and argued he had a better world cup for Croatia than Luka Modric. You criticized Messi for not being compatible with Dybala yet since Ronaldo plays for Juve the guy can't score for his life and has a siginficantly less important role in the squad. But of course you, and only you, know the true reason for that (which of course isn't the far too obvious explanation that Ronaldo has changed the environment for him but the supposed "fact" that the midfield around Pjanic has coincidently degressed the very moment Ronaldo joined the team). But do you know what my favourite part of that essay was? You said that Dybala scored less because he had to drop deep in order to build up the play from the midfield, the exact role Messi is executing in Barcelona without any negative effect on his productivity. So when the team performs bad, Messi falls back and takes over the responsibility and still manages to finish attacks while Ronaldo stays up front, scores less and leaves the task of initiating attacks to another team mate (who then scores less, too) but somehow this makes Ronaldo more versatile and Messi a challenge for the manager. What the actual f*ck? Unbelievable.

Yet the very moment a Barca fans says something negative about a player other than Messi you are immediately pointing your finger on him and are all like "THERE! Did you see that? He again criticized a Barca player in order to make Messi look better! These Barca fans are completely mental!"

You are really, truly incredible.

#murderbywords

 

[Prometheus]

Look at the 1/4, 1/2, Final... It's like God is being compared with minnows.

 

[Ishdalar]

Is their a better big game player in the world ? I think not.

0 goals in World Cup knockout stage.

 

[Schneckerl]

Veering off topic here, but what's crazy is that the same is likely true for Gerd Müller. At least as far as the ~50 still available full games go. Not quite as low as your numbers, but almost certainly below 4 for these games.

If I haven't miscounted, he took 9 shots in the four knockout games for the 72 EUROs combined (2,25 per game), scoring 5 times.

From OPTA: Müller had 26 shots at the 1970 WC (3,9/90 min) and 20 in 1974 (3,7/90 min)

Someone who went really crazy with shooting was Eusebio (61 shots). Don't know if this was his usual playstyle.

 

[Ishdalar]

By the way

Messi has played 4.423 minutes of UCL knockout games
Ronaldo has played 6.615 minutes of UCL knockout games

Messi scores a goal every 110 minutes in KO games, Ronaldo scores a goal every... 110 minutes. But "muh clutch player".

 

[MADReaLJL]

By the way

Messi has played 4.423 minutes of UCL knockout games
Ronaldo has played 6.615 minutes of UCL knockout games

Messi scores a goal every 110 minutes in KO games, Ronaldo scores a goal every... 110 minutes. But "muh clutch player".

Means Ronaldo played more knockout games than Messi. It's not Ronaldo's fault that Messi's team got knocked out much earlier.

 

[Schneckerl]

Food for thought:

Shows us that cumulative stats can be extremely misleading.
Going through it game by game gives you a clearer picture.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Wrote this post in the La Liga thread but it didn't belong there, so I decided to post it here..



Yeah, of course you weren't talking about Ronaldo. Who are you trying to kid, honestly? In every fecking post of yours one can extract some argument that in one way or another makes Ronaldo look better or Messi look worse. You subtly sneak in those arguments again and again and at some point in the future you bring them up in the actual discussion as if they were facts (something like "Rakitic, ancient-Iniesta and Busquets are a better midfield than Kroos, Modric and Casemiro", "Alba is a better left back than Marcelo" or "Messi's playstyle makes his teams extremely dependent on him" or something along those lines). I'm annoyed of myself that I again took the bait and started this argument with you because it (rightly) annoys many users in here that this discussion is so omnipresent but it is simply impossible to resist the irk to call you out for this kind of stuff.

Your posts in this thread are perfect examples of how you are again and again twisting, turning and bending arguments until they fit your narrative. Messi has played in countless different setups, successfully occupied much more different roles and positions than Ronaldo, can outplay defenses in many more ways than CR7 and so forth, so what's your point? You are completely superficial in one direction ("Argentina and Barca's whole approach consists of giving the ball to Messi and this is of course his fault, he simply makes it incredible hard for tactical geniuses like Martino or Maradona who immediately had unimaginable success once they coached teams in which he wasn't there") and super in-depth in the other ("Yeah, of course Real Madrid struggles now that Ronaldo is gone but here are 7 essays consisting of 63 pages with 547 different reasons why that is actually not the case and everyone who doesn't agree with my argumentation has no clue about football and I will answer them with 50 laughing smileys that document my and Ronaldo's superiority").

By the way, a good description of how versatile Messi actually is this video:


This illustrates how ridiculous those things you claim actually are. Really, I can only repeat what I said in the last post. From time to time one has to reflect what you are actually arguing in this very moment in order to understand how far from reality your claims are. You constantly criticize Messi for being too good for his team. When Barca recently performed underwhelmingly your first instinct was to criticize Messi although he wasn't even on the pitch. You suggested that Rakitic was a better midfielder than fecking Toni Kroos and argued he had a better world cup for Croatia than Luka Modric. You criticized Messi for not being compatible with Dybala yet since Ronaldo plays for Juve the guy can't score for his life and has a siginficantly less important role in the squad. But of course you, and only you, know the true reason for that (which of course isn't the far too obvious explanation that Ronaldo has changed the environment for him but the supposed "fact" that the midfield around Pjanic has coincidently degressed the very moment Ronaldo joined the team). But do you know what my favourite part of that essay was? You said that Dybala scored less because he had to drop deep in order to build up the play from the midfield, the exact role Messi is executing in Barcelona without any negative effect on his productivity. So when the team performs bad, Messi falls back and takes over the responsibility and still manages to finish attacks while Ronaldo stays up front, scores less and leaves the task of initiating attacks to another team mate (who then scores less, too) but somehow this makes Ronaldo more versatile and Messi a challenge for the manager. What the actual f*ck? Unbelievable.

Yet the very moment a Barca fans says something negative about a player other than Messi you are immediately pointing your finger on him and are all like "THERE! Did you see that? He again criticized a Barca player in order to make Messi look better! These Barca fans are completely mental!"

You are really, truly incredible.

This really cuts through Peyroteo's obvious bullshit. His whole view on football has been distorted and shaped by what favours Ronaldo or discredits Messi at any given moment. If Ronaldo wasn't Portuguese he wouldn't have such a strong opinions on off the ball movement or the relative strength of Barcelona's squad, I guarantee it.

 

[Cal?]

And still Messi is the better player, get over it. Zidane was a better player than Raul and he is not even on that list.

There we go again with being so sure of yourself.

 

[Cal?]

Messi scores in the CL at a higher rate.
Cristiano scores at the same rate as Ruud.

Considering he plays fewer knockout games

 

[Synco]

From OPTA: Müller had 26 shots at the 1970 WC (3,9/90 min) and 20 in 1974 (3,7/90 min)

Someone who went really crazy with shooting was Eusebio (61 shots). Don't know if this was his usual playstyle.

Nice, where did you get those Opta WC stats from?

1974 looks suspicious to me - most of all because Müller played 7 games and the numbers don't add up. I'm also fairly sure the number of shots must have been higher than 20; I think he had an above average amount of attempts there, especially early in the tourment.

In the final two games he was back at being his most efficient self again: 2 shots, 2 goals (if I haven't missed anything). Would have been 3/3 if the linesman didn't mess up on this one:

Spoiler

 

[Ishdalar]

And another stat, because I'm weird this way

Messi's teams have scored 119 KO goals, from which 41 come from Leo (34'4%)
Ronaldo's teams have scored 137 goals, 60 come fron Ronaldo (43%)

Spoiler

Not so much of a difference between a god vs a minnow.

 

[Prometheus]

And still Messi is the better player, get over it. Zidane was a better player than Raul and he is not even on that list.

It sounds like you got hurt by this particular stat.

 

[SportingCP96]

0 goals in World Cup knockout stage.

International trophies Ronaldo:1 Messi:0
Bye.

 

[Tostao_80]

It sounds like you got hurt by this particular stat.

You perfectly sum up the argument for all those pro Cristiano. You dont need STATS to determine who the better player is. There are numerous players with better stats than Maradonna, Lampard had better stats than Iniesta. Judging great players and their place in the pantheon requires you to look further, to their influence and control over a football match. Cruyff, Pele, Maradonna, Di Stefano were influencial footballers all over the pitch. Take away their goals and they were still the best players on the pitch. Cristiano has never had anywhere close to the same kind of command of the game as those other greats, all his fans talk about is his goals, like he's Gerd Muller. Why dont you eulogise his playmaking, his passing, his intelligence, his technique? Granted Cristianos all round game was very elite towards the end of United and the beginning of Real, but Leo' all round gane has been at a godly level for 10 years. There's a huge difference, both historically, and especially now between the all round games of the two.
Furthermore, one thing that the likes of Cal, Peyroteo fail to explain is why Leo is held in the highest of regard by the greatest managers and players. Why has Leo for a long time been compared to Pele and Diego, and Cristiano less so? Why do Rooney and Scholes say Messi is better? Leo has been claimed as the best ever by many football managers and players. For Cristiano, not even close. He can score to his heart's content, but he will never "play" better than Leo, and ultimately, that is and will be tge difference between the two.

 

[Prometheus]

You perfectly sum up the argument for all those pro Cristiano.

Relax yourself. I never made such argument. I was merely pointing out that the post I had quoted had a weird reaction to that stat (i.e. "get over it"). You've just rehashed things that have been argued to death about in this thread and elsewhere but in more muddled fashion.

 

[MJJ]

By the way

Messi has played 4.423 minutes of UCL knockout games
Ronaldo has played 6.615 minutes of UCL knockout games

Messi scores a goal every 110 minutes in KO games, Ronaldo scores a goal every... 110 minutes. But "muh clutch player".

Are you seriously using messi poor knock out record as a way to hype him up?