That also was a boost to having some of the best Brazil players of all time in those teams.
Great player and ambassador of football but never on the level of the other 3. Like I said look at the example I gave.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Great player and ambassador of football but never on the level of the other 3. Like I said look at the example I gave.
well you forgot that Pele was also the best player on those teams, so honestly your arguments about Pele not on same level with Maradona is funny. and let's not forget that Messi and Ronaldo were able to won many CLs because Madrid and Barca also boost some of the best players in the world.
Yes he was but you cant ignore everything else I said. half of his goals were friendlies and his official goals were against lowly competition and in a time where defense was not a factor at the time football was not played at the same level. Lotts of his games ended in 5+ goal margins.
Overrated. One of the greatest but never the greatest. In fact many Brazilian fans from Brazil share similar opinions.
pretty much doubt it, most of the Brazilian would still considered Pele as the greatest player of all time.
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Well let's just say, its a matter of very poor choice from your respond:
Goals - Ronaldo scored 689 vs Klose scored 302 goals
Assists - Ronaldo assists 218 vs Klose probably less than 50
CL titles - Ronaldo won 5 vs Klose won 0
Ballon D'or - Ronaldo 5 times winner, 6 times runners up vs Klose 0 times winner, 0 times runners up
Individual records - Ronaldo 150+ vs Klose 7
Trophies won - Ronaldo 29 vs Klose 9
Now, tell me, where do you get the idea that Klose has got anything up for comparison? Its like comparing Joe Cole with Messi. Really very poor choice of comparison.
Look, I get your favouritism in football. Anyone who does great dribble, with great passing and looks more talented will automatically rank higher in your list, even they have rather poor career, getting out-performed by others more, losing more games and achieve nothing noteworthy. I also understand you don't enjoy watching other types of players achieving much more than you wish. But its football, its a competitive game (not just a friendly exhibition for entertainment purpose) and there are many ways to win the game. A player who combined pace, skill, tricks, strengths, shooting, athleticism, ariel threat, determination, drive, handwork, leadership and clutch moment, can also win the game and beat the player with more talent, better skill, dribbling, passing and playmaking. If you don't like it, fine, but that's the way it is. If every objective and measurable matrix point towards the player belonging to top tier, you just have to accept it, rather than keep denying it and resort to making up conspiracy theories to support your own agenda.
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It would be a very poor choice if I did in fact rate Klose as highly as I do Ronaldo. even considering ...
World cups Klose 1 Ronaldo 0
Goals at World cup Klose 16 Ronaldo 7
But to confirm so there is no further mis-understanding. I do not believe that Klose was a better player than Ronaldo.
So Messi yes, Klose no.
Logic wrong there. There have been great players of the past who have been compared in the same era, yet one of the two has gone on to be regarded as greater in the grand scheme of things. A good example is Diego, who was often compared to Platini. In the end, Diego transcended, and no one talks of Platini as being one of the 3 GOATs (solid top 10er). Cruyff vs Franz was another. Yet Cruyff is regarded as top 5 of all time by many, Franz is not (makes top 10). Cristiano and Leo are similar. They have been compared. Yet only ONE of them is constantly and often called the GOAT, or ta least compared to Diego and Pele. Cristiano is not. Not many call him the greatest of all time. That is telling, and there's a reason for that. He will remain in the second tier with Cruyff and Alfredo.
Hard to be second tier when he is the best player of his generation.
[QUOTE="Look, I get your favouritism in football. Anyone who does great dribble, with great passing and looks more talented will automatically rank higher in your list, even they have rather poor career, getting out-performed by others more, losing more games and achieve nothing noteworthy. I also understand you don't enjoy watching other types of players achieving much more than you wish. But its football, its a competitive game (not just a friendly exhibition for entertainment purpose) and there are many ways to win the game. A player who combined pace, skill, tricks, strengths, shooting, athleticism, ariel threat, determination, drive, handwork, leadership and clutch moment, can also win the game and beat the player with more talent, better skill, dribbling, passing and playmaking. If you don't like it, fine, but that's the way it is. If every objective and measurable matrix point towards the player belonging to top tier, you just have to accept it, rather than keep denying it and resort to making up conspiracy theories to support your own agenda.[/QUOTE]
I agree there are many ways to play the game and many different types of players.
The very best stand out because they do things no one else can do and talent is extremely important to allow them to do this.
Are you aware that Messi has won La liga best player 7 times and Ronaldo only once? So perhaps it is not just me.
Again this is not to demean Ronaldo because he is an amazing player. I really understand that you love everything about the way he plays because I do as well.
This thread is about the best and only genius level will do to match against the other greats.
Do you consider Ronaldo a genius?
I agree there are many ways to play the game and many different types of players.
The very best stand out because they do things no one else can do and talent is extremely important to allow them to do this.
Are you aware that Messi has won La liga best player 7 times and Ronaldo only once? So perhaps it is not just me.
Again this is not to demean Ronaldo because he is an amazing player. I really understand that you love everything about the way he plays because I do as well.
This thread is about the best and only genius level will do to match against the other greats.
Do you consider Ronaldo a genius?
Although there could be some mileage in the line that the standard of defending was poorer, painting Pele as a flat track bully ignores the calibre of defenders he ripped to shreds. Not only did he tear up the 'pub teams', but his record against the best teams in the world, both at club level and internationally, was immense. He came up against the majority of the great defenders of his time, guys who still stand tall today - Beckenbauer, Schulz, Burgnich, Facchetti, Rosato, Moore, etc - and got the better of them all.
On the second bolded point, he won 3 World Cups and was fundamental in 2 of them (imagine the hype should either of the players in the thread title win even 1). And he did both before and after his peak, 6 goals as a 17-year-old, and then 4 goals and 5 assists as the 29-year-old orchestrator.
Yes he was put on a pedestal and personally I don't rate him as high as Maradona. But it's disingenuous to underplay what he did based on who he came up against or what he achieved at World Cups, where his record on both counts is impeccable.
I agree there are many ways to play the game and many different types of players.
The very best stand out because they do things no one else can do and talent is extremely important to allow them to do this.
Are you aware that Messi has won La liga best player 7 times and Ronaldo only once? So perhaps it is not just me.
Again this is not to demean Ronaldo because he is an amazing player. I really understand that you love everything about the way he plays because I do as well.
This thread is about the best and only genius level will do to match against the other greats.
Do you consider Ronaldo a genius?[/QUOTE]
He lacks the genius of a Diego or a Leo. That otherworldly ability to leave football watchers dumbfounded. He doesn't have the level of genius to sit at the very top. Which is why someone as esteemed as Capello (even after watching Cristiano score twice against Atletico and save Juve) chimed in. Leo's genius is up there with Diego and Pele. Cristiano doesn't quite match up. You watch and can tell he's a great player. But does he do things on a football pitch that many haven't seen before (like the aforementioned two)? His peak play, is it as good as Leo's? Pele, Diego and Leo could create at a GOAT level. Can Cristiano?
This is why, fans, football managers (old and current), fellow professionals (old and current), many of them already consider Leo as the GOAT, or at least Diego, Pele level.
Cristiano not so much (to rebut this, can Cristiano fans name at least 10 people who have called him the greatest of all time?).
A sad reality to accept for some on here but that is consensus for you.
I agree with everything you say. It is very hard for me to decide between Messi, Maradona and Pele because they all played in such different eras. Pitches, balls, boots were heavier and that is without the improvements in health and diet.
I am just really curious to know if those who think Ronaldo is as good as Messi do so because of the individual awards, goal scoring, titles, CL etc or because they think he is a genius as well.
If you only wish to cherry pick World Cup stats and ignore everything else, then let’s do it in fair way
World cups Klose 1 Messi 0
Goals at World cup Klose 16 Messi 6
So what’s your point again?
Well my whole argument isn’t about whether it is wrong to rate Messi higher. Of course I recognize Messi genius, he is in my top tier too. The only thing I do not agree, is to rank Ronaldo lower than L.Ronaldo, and same tier as Gazza, Del Piero and Figo etc, while using Klose and other conspiracy bullshite as example to bring down Ronaldo.
What I am trying to say is, in competitive football game, Ronaldo is up there alongside with top tier, not just base on one game, but over a decade of their respective career. Yes he is probably not as talent as the other 3 (Pelé, Maradona, Messi) but in competitive football game, with sole purpose to win, he is every bit as good as them.
If everything is down to “genius” (natural talent) to decide the winner, then there’s no point for any competition to exist.
But no, the world doesn’t exist that way. There are many means to victory, the term “greatest” is always refer to someone who has achieved the best, both individually and collectively.
Achievements alone can only get you so far. Why is Cruyff regarded higher than Beckenbauer? Franz achieved more. The reason? Genius and ability (though Franz himself amongst defenders is top 3 all time).
Genius and abilty elevate. Federer's genius adds to his greatness. With Roger, the way he plays the game is usually mentioned. Ayrton Sennas genius and ability had many people consider him greater than those with more world championships. There are many examples like this. And if you think im wrong, list 10 unbiased people who claim Cristiano to be the best of all time. And when you struggle to do so, ask yourself why. There are many who already say that Leo is.
Unfortunate but true. He doesnt have that level of genius required.
Unbiased people don't exist. Well unless they have a severe cognitive disorder.
In my unbiased opinion Robben is better than Messi and Ronaldo.
That's great
Well first of all, as others have already pointed out, unbiased person just doesn’t exist. Statistically speaking, around 35/40% will rate Ronaldo higher than Messi. So as long as there are around 25-30 people willing to list their GOAT, surely there will be no problem finding 10 of them on Ronaldo side.
Another thing is, although genius attracts more admiration, it’s by no means everything. Ronaldo himself is a genius too when compared with majority of other players, he is probably not at Messi/Maradona level of genius, but one could argue Pelé wasn’t at Maradona or even Garrincha or George Best level of genius too, but it doesn’t makes him any less of player than those players. Why? It’s simply because of his unmatched level of success/achievements/legacy/accomplishment. If Pelé doesn’t achieve 1000 goals or doesn’t win any of the WC, will he be rated higher than George Best or Garricha? Probably not.
Some people are born to be genius, but greatest people always strive for greatest accomplishment. This world is all about accomplishment, really. Fergie is widely regarded as GOAT as football manager, but is it because of his genius football style/approach/strategy? Well Guardiola has better football style to most so why is he not rank higher than Fergie then? That’s because it’s more about the tremendous amount of success he has achieved over the years. Football is all about winning trophies, and players are all playing for success (and money), and ultimately, legacy. Can you list 3 players, for the entire football history, who has achieved more success, both individually and collectively, than Ronaldo? I doubt you can. And that’s the ultimate things all players dream to become, including all the genius one.
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A few things here to digest. Firstly, you say surely there will be no problem finding 10 of them on Ronaldo side (as regards to calling him the GOAT, not saying he's better than Messi). This is where you come a cropper. Name these 10 people if it is so easy (that have no links to Real, Man Utd U or Portugal). You honestly can't, or will struggle to.
And yes, you can find unbiased sportspeople. Why would Capello be biased?
Secondly, Pele vs Best/ Garrincha is a poor analogy. Best and Garincha were excellent wide players with great dribbling. But what else did they excel at to a great level? Pele was a goalscorer, dribbler and playmaker supremo rolled into one. His genius and ability meant that he could be outscored by others and still be the best player (an accusation often thrown at Cristiano). In World Cup 70, he only scored a measly 4 goals, Jairzinho scored 7 in total (a goal in each round) and Gerd Muller with TEN goals. Who do you think was player of the tournament? It was Pele. Geniuses don't need to score to show they are the best. And that's what Pele did.
Thirdly and most importantly, you say that Football is all about winning trophies. It is not, and it hasn't been for the last 80 or so years. Why is Cruyff's Oranje constantly name as one of the greatest international teams of all time, even ahead of WC winning teams? If it's all about winning, then why is that? Similarly, Puskas' Magical Magyars of the 50s are held in high regard. The Brazil team of the 80s is held in higher regard that the dour team that won in 94. Why is that? They only got to the quarters.
Football has been and will always be more than just winning. Who talks about Greece 2004? And why not? They won didn't they?
Fourthly, your point about Fergie. Yes, he is seen as one of the very best ever. But guess who France Football (those responsible for the Balon Dor) voted as the best manager ever? It's Rinus Michels. Guess why? Because of achievements (they helped), but not entirely. The main reason is he was credited with inventing the famous “total football” philosophy in the mid-1960s. Cruyff is ranked at number 4. He achieved a lot less than Mourinho. Why is he ahead of Mourinho? The reason: Influence and style.
Marcelo Bielsa is number 48. Whats he ever won? Why is he ahead of Conte? Who has won more out of the two.
Football is more than results, it's more than achievements, it's more than winning. Magic and genius elevate. It's why Diego, Leo and Pele are celebrated. It's why Michels, Cruyff and Guardiola are seen as three of the best 5 managers if all time. Whats the commonality with those three? Don't worry about Pep, he already has the style, the trophies are piling up. Give him another 5 to 10 years, he will surpass Fergie and possibly Rinus. I'm confident he will be seen as the greatest manager in history once he's done.
Name those 10 unbiased sportspeople who say Cristiano is the GOAT.
Im sure many french people said the same about Platini back then, on how he was better than Maradona. Hell im sure you could go to France and find quite a few people that will still say Platini is better.
At the end of the day we all know deep inside who was better, whether we admit it or not.
Exactly, it’s Messi. Always has been, always will be.
goat
I am not denying there is “genius” factor to determine whether the player is rated as “more admirable” than other. But again, genius without achievement is nothing in terms of greatest. Genius alone is not everything, as some of you tend to believe. Cruyff has actually has won 3 CL (European Cup), 3 Ballon D’or and 21 trophies overall. During his time, there’s only Pelé and Di Stéfano who can match his level of success. Even in his time as manager, he has won 14 trophies. So that’s 35 trophies as player and manager. I doubt you can find more than a few in the history of game who is more successful than him. Take away his success, he will never be mentioned as one of GOAT too.
Surely there is also “legacy” factor which will heavily determined greatness - examples are Maradona 86 WC and goal of century, Cruyff “total football”, Pelé 3WC and 1000 goals, Beckenbauer “libero” role, Di Stéfano 5 CL (European Cup) etc. Perhaps you are not aware that Ronaldo does have his own legacy too - he did actually revolutionized the wing forward role (he is the first of the kind, before his time, a winger who score 40-50 goals a season is totally unseen and non-existence), his 17 CL is amazing, his 150+ Individual records is unmatched and unheard, and his legacy in CL in general.
As for name 10 unbiased sportsperson criteria, I never heard any GOAT candidates in the past have to pass this strange criteria test you’ve made. Any person I name, you can still say he is biased, because everyone is biased to some degree. It’s rather pointless and your question is self-defeated in purpose.
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Beat Qatar and they are through.
goat
Our very own Georgie Best ... scored 32 goals in 42 league matches 67-68. He was an out and out winger. He did not play 50+ matches a season of course as there was no CL and all the games that come with it.
You are obviously a massive fan of Ronaldo's and you have argued his case extremely well. Myself - I have been a huge Man Utd Fan since the 70's so you would expect me to also automatically side with him. He has a huge will to win but it his pursuit of personal glory and his reaction when he does not win awards that I find hard because it is a team game. I understand why he has done it. He is naturally gifted but not a genius and he wants to be considered the best.
Genius is genius and whilst I greatly admire all the things Roanldo has won, Messi has matched that and is 2.5 years younger. Messi is just a joy to watch even when he dips below his high standards.
Messi was so brilliant when he came on the scene and you could argue that his effortless genius is now under appreciated. The challenge bought out the very best in Ronaldo who eeked out every last drop of talent as well as being the first player to really grasp the power of social media. Ronaldo is the most effective football marketing ever and his ability to brand and connect with his supporters so effortlessly is genius. That is why Nike have signed him for a lifetime deal on 1 billion. Compare that with Messi who does not even have an official twitter account.
So whilst Messi is just the football player marked with genius Ronaldo is the naturally gifted football player using the social platforms to elevate his position and status in my opinion. When you consider 25% of the vote for the best player in the world since 2016 is from social media then you can understand how that social media power can make a big difference. Just take a look at the 2018 Champions league goal of the season Ronaldo received 200,000 of the total 346,915 votes. I thought Bale's in the final was the special one but that is the power of social media as I don't think he was even a contender.
If you use just stats then that becomes a problem. Last season Messi 51 goals, 19 assists in 50 appearances, Ronaldo 28 goals, 10 assists in 43 appearances. So is Ronaldo on the decline or is it because he is settling in, in a new league?
There is a very interesting, well thought out read here - http://messivsronaldo.net/. It has all their stats in one place.
For George Best part, He did in fact being regarded as one of GOAT in the past, mostly among top 10. As for revolutionize the wing forward role, I did literally point out that “before Ronaldo, a winger who scored 40-50 goals a season is totally unseen and and non-existence”, which is 100% true. George Best scored 32 goals in his best season, Ronaldo average 50-60 goals in same role during his peak. Not to mention Ronaldo has longer peak than most of the GOAT in the past, which adds even more credits.
If you wish to compare a 34 years old Ronaldo stats in a new league to conclude anything, fine, how about Pelé, Maradona, Cruyff at the age of 34? Are they all not GOAT? Yet Ronaldo is better at that age. So what’s your point again?
Look I am not saying Ronaldo is the undisputed No.1 GOAT, but he does belongs to the top tier, everything he won/achieved, both individually and collectively, says so. To say he is not, and name him alongside with Gazza/Del Peiro, or at around top 20, is a disgrace.
Sorry you feel that way but I can't help the way I see things. I think social media is a powerful tool when I really want it to be just about the football. it is possibly a generational thing from my end as well. In all honesty I am not even sure I would vote for Ronaldo as the best ever Man Utd player. I would probably vote for Best. Real Madrid fans may see things differently but they would have watched him in the flesh so to speak and have a far better understanding of where he ranks in their history.
I mentioned Bestie only because you said Ronaldo was the first wide player to score so many goals. I think Best's 32 in 42 was pretty special considering he was an assist king as well. You can not easily compare stats over eras because too many different variables as the game has become more global there are different and new levels of ability being introduced that increases the number of games played but increases the chances to score more.
Out of interest as a Man Utd fan - is Ronaldo your pick of the best ever Man Utd player based on his time with us?
Out of curiosity, would Argentina be better off with Messi or Ronaldo currently? Would Portugal better off with Messi or Ronaldo?
You can’t possibly call someone a GOAT if they are a system player. Messi is vastly dependent on who plays around him and that’s a big negative on his part.
If things are going well, then he will do things that no footballer has ever done.
Pundits who value one over the other don’t matter because Ronaldo played for the 3 most hated teams in Europe. Plus the arrogance
You can’t possibly call someone a GOAT if they are a system player. Messi is vastly dependent on who plays around him and that’s a big negative on his part.
If things are going well, then he will do things that no footballer has ever done.
Pundits who value one over the other don’t matter because Ronaldo played for the 3 most hated teams in Europe. Plus the arrogance
In answer to your question. I honestly do not know the answer. Argentina got to the WC final in 2014 and Portugal won the Euros. I watched both games buy how can you compare when Ronaldo did not play much of the final and even then how do you compare?
In terms of Messi being a system player? Surely every player plays in a system. Messi sometimes plays right, sometimes false nine, sometimes midfield and Ronaldo plays left or central up front. Neither is particularly called upon to defend so as long as they have decent defenders and players who can get the ball to them then possibly you can say they are both reliant on a system to get the best out of them.
Pundits surely must matter as many are ex players so they have a level of expertise we do not have - well at least those of us who have not played against either or played to a high level.
As to arrogance I am a Man Utd fan first and foremost and I would hate to think we were in the top 3 of the most hated teams in Europe. Liverpool supporters generally do not like us but that works both ways.
Ronaldo played for some of the biggest clubs of all time in United and and Madrid with some of the greatest players of their generation.
Ronaldo couldn’t save this current Argentina side. Have you watched them? They are completely dysfunctional. When Ronaldo plays poorly in the finals like more than half his UCL finals and missing the euro final and nations league final he was poor his teams still win. I can’t think of any other major player who can go missing in as many finals and still come away with silverware every time.
Portugal’s NT is much more
Cohesive than Argentina. Even without Ronaldo is favor Portugal to beat this Argentina side.
So yeah, Messi is still the goat, playing for one of the most dysfunctional NT of all time doesn’t change that.
I'm so happy that Messi fans now think Portugal NT it's such a great team. Lovely. Thanks
This Argentina team is so dysfunctional that perhaps just throwing crosses into Ronaldo would be a better tactic but they still wouldn't be winning anything going from how they performed against Colombia - it was like watching us these last few years.
They have a damn good record without Ronaldo, a promising future and manage to win finals without him playing well consistently. That’s the sign of a good team when even your best player plays poorly and you can still dig deep to finish the job.
Ronaldo is a huge part of what they do, no doubt about it but they are very balanced and have a bright future. It’s ridiculous when some people see them as a one man team, couldn’t be further from the truth.
goat
So we ignore that for a Majority of his career Ronaldo played with Postiga, Hugo Almeida,Silvestre Varela, Raul Meireles,Miguel Veloso etc.? While Messi whole career he was surrounded by world class players?
Ronaldo didn't score in the Euro final because.....he got injured. Was there best player the whole tournament along with Rui, and Pepe.
This whole notion of "poor Messi he plays with Aguero Di Maria Teves etc etc. His whole career poor baby" Would love to see him play with fecking Almeida and Postiga
You will never win the National team argument. I can only imagine what CR7 would have done with World class talent around him.
Ronaldo played in United and Madrid and now Juve. 3 different leagues,Teams,phlosophys etc. To dominate like he has done in all of them (*Italy because only 1 season but by the time he is done there he will have dominated obviously. He is the best for a reason) isn't an accident. He is that good. As was said above and as SAF said arguably the greatest coach of all time. You can put Ronaldo in Fleetwood town and he would give you the same exact output. Messi...He is brilliant he truly is but...He is a system player and it is clear as day. I dont blame him for not leaving Barca because based on how he looks in Argentina he maybe would have won less Balon d Or had he done so.
... and won a grand total of nothing while playing with them?
Also, I'm really wondering what world class goalkeepers, defenders or midfielders Messi has played with during his time at Argentina. And if you have watched more than one game of them during the WC or this Copa America, you'd know that calling the likes of Aguero "world class" is a big, big leap as well.
Ya no set he won nothing look at his team.
He still took that team to a semi final of a Euro. and constantly qualified them to major tournaments on his own. At 19 he was one of the key players that Portugal went to the Final scoring goals in both the Quarter and Semi Finals of the tournament.
So now AGUERO is not world class
Did you see Portugal in euro 16? shambles. They only got out the group cause of Ronnie. Round of 16 the shot that led to the goal...Ronnie. Penalty shootout vs Poland that's at random but I am sure everyone has seen the video of him inspiring Moutinho like a true LEADER and Captain. Semi finals...Ronnie and Finals he got intentionally injured.
And yet just about every other major coach/player always chooses Messi by a wide marginSo we ignore that for a Majority of his career Ronaldo played with Postiga, Hugo Almeida,Silvestre Varela, Raul Meireles,Miguel Veloso etc.? While Messi whole career he was surrounded by world class players?
Ronaldo didn't score in the Euro final because.....he got injured. Was there best player the whole tournament along with Rui, and Pepe.
This whole notion of "poor Messi he plays with Aguero Di Maria Teves etc etc. His whole career poor baby" Would love to see him play with fecking Almeida and Postiga
You will never win the National team argument. I can only imagine what CR7 would have done with World class talent around him.
Ronaldo played in United and Madrid and now Juve. 3 different leagues,Teams,phlosophys etc. To dominate like he has done in all of them (*Italy because only 1 season but by the time he is done there he will have dominated obviously. He is the best for a reason) isn't an accident. He is that good. As was said above and as SAF said arguably the greatest coach of all time. You can put Ronaldo in Fleetwood town and he would give you the same exact output. Messi...He is brilliant he truly is but...He is a system player and it is clear as day. I dont blame him for not leaving Barca because based on how he looks in Argentina he maybe would have won less Balon d Or had he done so.
It’s not about winning the NT argument, as bad as Ronaldo NT may have been early in his career they were never as dysfunctional as what Messi has had in recent years. There is zero midfield, zero
Defense.
And put Messi on Liverpool, man city,Juventus, Bayern Munich and be would be fine. Ronaldo bounces around from the biggest clubs of their respective leagues. People act like he’s dragging Norwich to titles.
The overall consensus by most has Messi ahead of Ronaldo
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