When was the last time a non european team won the WC? Makes their confed a bit weak, even the last time was 2 European teams reaching the final. But will be the day I finally see Brazil the way I used when I was younger.So winning the Nations league or Confed cup is better than making a WC final, aye okay...
I'm sure every footballer would take a EL winners medal over a CL runners up medal as well.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Again...win something as opposed to get to a final and lose. Why would anyone choose memories of losing in a final over memories of winning in a final, even if the one in which you win is less prestigious?! Bizarre.Come on you guys that think its hilarious, grow a set and an answer the question!
Man United next season.
1. Go out the CL group stage and win the EL
OR
2. Make the CL final and lose.
What you picking?
I will do it for you, anyone saying option 1 would not be regarded as a better season for Man United is lying. Good night.
Yup, because the European Championship is just like the Europa League.Come on you guys that think its hilarious, grow a set and an answer the question!
Man United next season.
1. Go out the CL group stage and win the EL
OR
2. Make the CL final and lose.
What you picking?
I will do it for you, anyone saying option 1 would not be regarded as a better season for Man United is lying. Good night.
Do you fall into it if you finish 3rd in your World Cup group? Do none of the best teams play in it?
Were/are the 4 last World Cup winners playing in it? And most importantly, are you playing stupid?
The actual question for anyone not thick as pig shit would be:
England fans, Belgium fans, Holland fans etc…
1. Win this tournament
2. Finish 2nd in the next WC.
You know the answer ffs.
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brilliant post!
It’s an absolutely dumb post. Any forward is quite clearly playing for assists and goals, he’s not just playing around and… whoops shit another goal.
Messi is that good because he’s so focused on scoring and assisting and rightfully so, because without that he’s more Maradona than Messi, that’s what separates the two, Messi’s single mindedness in end product.
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Hate when that happens
Even worse is when he finds those incredible slide rule passes and some fecker goes and scores from it, giving him another undesired assist.
The Euros is the second best competition in world football, behind the world cup. Just like EL is the second best behind CL. So yeah comparison fits.Yup, because the European Championship is just like the Europa League.
Do you fall into it if you finish 3rd in your World Cup group? Do none of the best teams play in it?
Were/are the 4 last World Cup winners playing in it? And most importantly, are you playing stupid?
The actual question for anyone not thick as pig shit would be:
England fans, Belgium fans, Holland fans etc…
1. Win this tournament
2. Finish 2nd in the next WC.
You know the answer ffs.
Why don't you answer my question, grow a set and not just try to belittle people.
Next season what do you pick.
Man United knocked out the GS of CL but win the EL OR Man United make the CL final. What is your answer or you going to be to scared to answer because you know it will prove me correct?
There was numerous United fans on here not wanting to watch the 'second rate' Europa League but aye I'm sure they would say winning that second rate tournament is a bigger success than making the CL final next year...
WHY are you refusing to answer? Like above are you worried because you will select the same option as I suggested and prove me accurate?
What would you prefer next season your club winning a EL title or making the CL final? What would be regarded as the bigger achievement and a more successful season?
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By winning the EL you also qualify for the CL. Surely this is a no-brainer?
Argentina lost the WC final. Important distinction.
You can qualify via the league just like United did this season. So it's irrelevant to the question and point at hand. But if you want to make it more simple for people then fine.
What is a more successful season for Man United, one of the biggest clubs in world football.
Option 1 - Finish top 4 and make the CL final
Option 2 - Finish in top 4, finish 3rd in CL group stage and go on to win the EL.
Better?
I missed out the word 'final' but as seen by previous posts it was obvious I meant the CL final and not making the CL. Dear god.
Point being the scenario you're proposing should involve knowledge that you will lose said final and end up empty handed. Not just "make" it.I missed out the word 'final' but as seen by previous posts it was obvious I meant the CL final and not making the CL. Dear god.
I don't find this to be a good analogy honestly. The EURO is more valuable than the EL. Obviously not as much as the World Cup but still a very big event and therefore I'd prefer winning the EURO than losing a World Cup final.
Again, throughout my previous posts and on the same page, I made it clear my scenario was comparing 'winning the EL' and 'Losing the CL final' and what would be regarded as a better achievement for United fans next season.
It's an important distinction because the knowledge that you will lose the final and not come anywhere close again is a significant factor.
In any case, as the poster above said it's a flawed comparison as the Euros is a far more prestigious competition than the EL, with (relatively) higher quality teams. Portugal beating the eventual WC winners to win that trophy is a testament to that.
I don’t see where we are disagreeing?!
I agree with you on the valuable part and like I said previously it was a great achievement for Portugal even though drawing 3 group games and finishing third yet still advancing is utterly embarrassing and a shambolic addition to the tournament.
My whole argument here is winning something does not automatically make it a better achievement and I 100% stand by that majority of fans at the top clubs would all agree that making a CL final and losing it would be a better achievement and classed as a better season than failing in the CL group stage and then winning the EL. This place wanted Ole out after the CL group stages this year. It was a disaster and the majority couldn't care less about the Europa League.
The Chelsea side that won it in 2011 is still to this day regarded as lucky and one of the weakest to have won the tournament in recent years. So why can Chelsea's CL win be downplayed but Portugal's Euro's can't?
BTW this is not an argument based on Ronaldo vs Messi because I'm of the opinion Messi should never have won the golden ball in 2014 and have not claimed that was a superior achievement. Many others would say being the best player at the top tournament is a greater achievement than not being even as good as Nani in the Euros. However, this notion because Portugal won a tournament even when Ronaldo was injured in the final means he shits on Messi Internationally is crazy. I put both on a similar level and would still make that claim even if Argentina won because I base it on the players performances rather than basing it on who won the final and who didn't. Couldn't care less if nobody believes that tbh because I've stated on here judging players on trophies especially cup competitions is weak, Kane is superior to many players who have many more trophies than him for example and that the importance of winning cup competitions is overstated. Ancelotti would be above SAF and Guardiola on that notion.
See, Cristiano was a brillant creator when he was younger. Extremely explosive and technically elite dribbler. He almost entirely cut that from his game in order to optimize his goal output. And he didn't do so when he started to become slower, he did so aged 26 or 27. On the contrary, Messi now aged 34 plays deeper than he did in his prime, creates more than pretty much everyvody else on the planet and still rivals Cristiano's output levels. He has much more decisive plays that are not a goal or even assist than CR7 ever had. That's nothing somebody made up. These comparisons aren't fair and still Messi edges it purely regarding goals apart from a very specific definition area.
So you can ridicule my post all you like, it doesn't change that this is the way it is. Cristiano streamlined his whole playing style to optimize his goal output and Messi didn't.
Nothing dumb about his post, Messi is a GOAT level goalscorer, dribbler, playmaker, passer etc. rolled into one player, who obviously adds a lot more to a team than Ronaldo.
Ronaldo is only on GOAT level when it comes to scoring, hes closer to Gerd Muller than he is to Messi or Maradona.
Messi is a superior footballer, plain and simple.
another great post
Except he didn’t entirely cut that aged 26 or 27 though. He did trim down his dribbling around that age (since he came back from his injuries), but he was still very much explosive and his all round game was very much on his peak level, until he approach his 30.
For example, in season 14/15 (only 6 years ago), apart from scoring 61 goals, he still managed 21 assist, and made avg 2.2 key pass per game with a avg rating of 8.48, which is extremely high on performance level. He did cut down his dribbling though but anything else he was on very peak level. But since then his overall performance level does start to drop notably as he turns into more of a poacher.
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Except its not. 90% of the teams that play in the WC also play in the Euros whereas elite teams play in the CL and the rest in EL.
So no, the comparison doesn't really fit.
I've had read about "Ronaldo's injurys" from a few people, what about it? Like he got some injurys that diminished his dribbling hability. WTH. I've had read these past days about the same "Ronaldo's injurys' affecting his freekicks and that was the reason he isn't scoring as much as he did earlier in his career. Another WTH.
This is getting very cringed and embarrassing the more you try to defend your claim on comparing EL with Euro. I’d just leave it there if I were you.
I would choose winning a trophy. I thought that was clear from my previous posts. Why would I rather we made a final and then lost it?
So sayeth the oracle...all discussion is now futile as he hath spoken.
The stupidity in this post makes my brain hurt.
Answer the question about the actual competitions we’re discussing, do England fans and players prefer to win this Euros or lose the next WC final?
That has nothing to do with my post, it just sounds like a teenager with a crush. I’m not even debating Ronaldo v Messi here.
This is why I don’t rate him because he always had that Barcelona team ability to control the ball behind him.
At Messi’s best - he had Iniesta and Xavi capable of playing a type of football that was 100% copy of what the Spain national team played - it showed that Messi was more an icing to the Spanish cake rather than the core ingredient that made it work.
Trophy upon trophy when Xavi and Iniesta were both around - once they left; Messi’s trophies suddenly became less common - smaller trophies, semi finals instead of wins.
Even now - Barcelona are a shadow of their older self but still has a core philosophy they try to keep with possession as much as possible from the de jong to the pjanic to the pique at the back who still plays.
Messi always had this possession type team whether they were good or bad playing behind him.
He didn’t have to adapt as you said to get his goals or assists - because he didn’t need to. Not only did he play in a very skill dominant dribbling dominant league for all his career (compared to Ronaldo moving from PL to La Liga to Serie A) - he played in one of the most possession held teams ever giving him a support beside him.
People have this assumption that if Messi had for example played for Chelsea under Mourinho (during our Ronaldo’s United period) or even a city under Mancini that he would be putting up the performances, assist and goal numbers he did all his career at Barcelona with so much possession based stature and ability played behind and beside him. I wouldn’t have said he would be useless, he would be great player - but him being called a GOAT simply would not have happened.
Ronaldo on the other hand - even if winning with a Juventus is nothing new or great - it’s the fact that he could adapt to any team, any league and any opposition of so many different style and tactics while still coming out a winner is why he is my GOAT. Messi could only really do it for Barcelona when Barcelona during his period is regarded one of the best teams of all time which was then replicated by Spain National team winning their first World Cup wins and winning consistent euros during that era too. Argentina and Messi was not even close to winning a copa America during that time.
In a more simple term - in my eyes C Ronaldo spending his whole career at Barcelona with all that team philosophy, possession and ability behind him would have been putting Messi numbers to rather than having to adapt and play his game at sporting Lisbon, Manchester United, Real Madrid,Juventus and Portugal. Do I think Messi would have been regarded as high as the player he is at Barcelona if he had to adapt his game to play with Sporting Lisbon, United, Real Madrid,Juventus and Argentina - then not a chance.
On the other side when you remember how many inverted cut goals David Villa played (one of my favorite players) and even a right footed Pedro at the Barcelona peak - you wonder how C Ronaldo would have done in such a team in place of David Villa.
The best example of this is Neymar - looked a different player playing with the ability and possession philosophy of Barcelona consistently playing behind him and setting him up. At PSG - he is not as fearesome as he once seemed to be at Barcelona in La Liga.
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Its not even a debate anymore. Ronaldo is both better player and has better career. There is clear difference in stats, adaptability between both of them.
Messi fans only keep harping about how Messi is the natural player and that makes him better. Its a weak argument as is Ronaldo an unnatural player? Ronaldo never had it easy as many wanted him to fail , and saw him as just one trick pony. Whereas, Messi started out as the special protege.
And Maradona is seen with nostalgia. The same would apply to Ronaldo/Messi where they would be reviewed as even better player post retirement. Then, Maradona peak was not higher than them, if anything his peak was shorter due to his own incapacity to sustain it. That sustainability alone makes Ronaldo/Messi as ATG.
Messi fans only keep harping about how Messi is the natural player and that makes him better. Its a weak argument as is Ronaldo an unnatural player? Ronaldo never had it easy as many wanted him to fail , and saw him as just one trick pony. Whereas, Messi started out as the special protege.
And Maradona is seen with nostalgia. The same would apply to Ronaldo/Messi where they would be reviewed as even better player post retirement. Then, Maradona peak was not higher than them, if anything his peak was shorter due to his own incapacity to sustain it. That sustainability alone makes Ronaldo/Messi as ATG.
For me the problem with the Messi and Ronaldo argument is that Messi supporters tend to argue not just that he's better than Ronaldo, but that he's on another plane of existence, that it's incredibly obvious that he's the much superior player.
That's fine if you want to believe that. But it means that if your argument that Messi is better requires going in-depth into numbers and dividing things by 'difficulty of team' or whatever, you've already lost. Because then it's not really 'obvious' that Messi is on another plane of existence.
That's fine if you want to believe that. But it means that if your argument that Messi is better requires going in-depth into numbers and dividing things by 'difficulty of team' or whatever, you've already lost. Because then it's not really 'obvious' that Messi is on another plane of existence.
What's changed since last?
1. Stripped of context, sure. But Portugal have been decent while Ronaldo's been there, they've had some good tournament performances (also some bad ones). The 'reward' has been a title. The title was ugly, sure, but that can happen when you go at it a bunch of times.
2. Argentina didn't really play aganst anyone of consequence in WC2014 until the semifinals (maybe Qfs if you want to be very generous). If they'd won the final in a boring 0-1 game with a penalty, nobody would have cared about their road to victory.
I think the circumstances of firing your manager and winnng it with a nobody make it look more obviously 'lucky'. But IMO that win should not be downplayed. Chelsea had a lot of players who'd played multiple semi-finals and even a CL final. Their actual win was ugly, but like I said earlier: that can happen when you go at it a bunch of times.
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Phantom pain is a serious issue mate. Definitely explains why you're so angry all the time.
If you’re suggesting that stupidity angers me, you’d be correct.
I’m not in this thread for the childish Ronaldo v Messi debate that I imagine high school kids the World over are also having, I’m here to call out some utter bullshit, such as comparing the European Championship featuring the past 4 WC winners with the second rate fecking Europa League, or the suggestion that the incredible Leo Messi isn’t considered by many as the best player of all time because his entire game is all about end product.
The idea it’s just a bi product of his game is so daft it’s hard not to just throw out some harsh words about the suggestion. That IS his game, it’s all about scoring and creating, and rightfully so, he’s as every bit obsessed about end product as anyone who’s ever played the game.
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Yes, you're so high above us. You're not spending time discussing topics you're interested in, you instead have 15.000 posts criticizing people for debating what they're interested in. Really mature, a role model to all of us sad little geeks.
I don't agree with you but I have to admit, one has to pay respect that you deliver such an incredibly stupid statement with so much passion and conviction. Dunning and Kruger would be really proud of themselves right now.
He scored 2 goals vs Hungary
Anyway this debate has been long settled for me as I judge the players more on ability than on stats and silverware.
And I think we can all agree that in their primes Messi had more ability.
Btw both players have underwhelming international careers and Ronaldos performance in 2016 is hardly the stuff of legends.
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