See there you go, so you are saying Neymar was better than Ronaldo when he was winning Ballon Dors, Euro and threepeats CL while breaking Champions league records during the 2013-18 era.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Yes, I think Neymar right now is better than the iteration of Cristiano who won three CLs in a row, though not by much. I have the Cristiano from 2014-2018 roughly on par with the current version of Lewandowski and I believe Neymar right now is better than Lewandowski. But if you made me choose between the best version of Neymar and the best version of Cristiano, I'd go for Cristiano 10 out of 10 times.
The bias toward dribblers from armchair fans is honestly very annoying, Ronaldo 14-18 is very possibly the greatest player of all time, Providing clutch moments and "magic" at pace and size that you would need to merge couple legends whole career only to match what CR did during that time. Yet you get these annoying biased pseudo intellectuals who put 90% weight on 1-2 traits and sit on their high horse as the supreme critics, To imply you would take Neymar over that CR is objectively poor knowledge of football as a competitive game, He wasn't better, He wasn't greater and he surely not the one you want to take to win you games.
This tweet sums up my thoughts on it. I'm happy to have settled the debate.
Tweet
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And this nonsense of overrating a dribble from deep continues.
Neymar has never been the player Ronaldo is. Two say he's better than that champions league Ronaldo
No one is arguing basic manipulation of a football (which Ronaldo btw is absolutely insane at. His accuracy in shots in the corner is just not human )
But if we're talking basic manipulation Ronaldinho was the king. A footballer isnt just judged by that..
Ugh 'basic manipulation of a football'. Delaney really is a pretentious prat.
Nothing new there. Redcafes discussion in probably the most anal on the internet.
It's not solely about dribbles. It is about decision making, movement between the lines, advancing the ball, link up play and one twos, pressing resistance, passing, decision making and so forth. There's much more to a game of football of than just the last or second to last touch before a ball passes the goal line. This debate is primarily between the people who understand that concept and those who don't.And this nonsense of overrating a dribble from deep continues.
Neymar has never been the player Ronaldo is. Two say he's better than that champions league Ronaldo
This. There’s a reason Gerd Müller was never mentioned in the same sentence as Maradona. Everyone realized he was just a very good goalscorer/poacher with nowhere near the football intelligence and impact of the true GOAT candidates. Where did that basic footballing knowledge go missing?
If certain people had been following football in the 80’s they’d be like: ”Dribbling from deep is so overrated, Maradona is such a midget. Müller has twice as many goals so he’s obviously twice as good. Debate settled.”
We will see who can manipulate the ball better this evening. Young Boys at the Wankdorf.
Prime Ronaldo had a pretty good all around game though just not on level of Messi.
Very much this. Basically people seem to think today’s Ronaldo is what he has always been.
fecking hell.But we have not signed certain iceland player.
Damn, I think I said it too soon, too soon.
Basically sums it up here, and in case others here forget, Messi also had best of all time tier of the last and second last touches in addition to everything you have mentioned. I think that people here tend to combine the 2008-2012 all round terror of CR7 and the 2012-2018 version of the supreme goal scorer CR7 into one, to make a supet CR7 if you like.
Other way round IMO. Prime Ronaldo had a better all round game than Messi, for me.
He was talking in context of Neymar vs Ronaldo during the 2013-2018 period though. And I think that is where he is wrong.
Also reason Gred Muller is not mentioned in same sentence as Maradona is because of his performances at the highest level, what has Neymar done exactly to be considered better than Ronaldo at his goal scoring prime.
Yeah prime Ronaldo was a very explosive footballer it was only later he became more of a poacher. His dribbling and playmaking was never quite goat level but still good to at times very good.
Ronaldo gets my vote simply because he has delivered in three major leagues, EPL, La Liga, Serie A.
Also, over a hundred goals at International level and a major trophy winner with Portugal.
Absolutely stellar.
Also, over a hundred goals at International level and a major trophy winner with Portugal.
Absolutely stellar.
Disagree prime Messi is arguably the best dribbler of all time and even his old version beats more players in a match than young Ronaldo did. On top of that Messi's passing and vision has always been 10/10. 2006/7 Ronaldo was definitely one of the versions where he was most exciting to watch, but in comparing their primes I think Messi simply had unreal skill.
Nonsense. Any player who won 5 Ballon D’ors and runners up 7 times, would 100% be in the GOAT conversation.
Yes you could argue that Ronaldo is more complete because he has no real weakness like Messi has with heading for example. But as you say Messi scores 10/10 in almost all other offensive attributes and I will even give him a 11/10 in dribbling because nobody was ever on his level. Ronaldo obviously didn't have the talent of Messi.
You mention decision making twice, and Neymar is better than Ronaldo at it? You just have a very narrow view of skills in the modern game.
Agreed that Messi had the highest level of technical ability I've seen, but prime Ronaldo was more all-rounded to me.
Now Messi fans brining the Gerd Muller comparisons again.
Ironically Maradona was not quite like Messi either. Messi is a very "efficient" dribbler while Maradona was more flair. At least based on highlights I've seen.
Also what does it matter who was in the GOAT debate or not. Fact is Ronaldo is in it. He's that good. If he is in it despite not being a mainstream twinkle toe dribbler that makes him all the better.
Ironically Maradona was not quite like Messi either. Messi is a very "efficient" dribbler while Maradona was more flair. At least based on highlights I've seen.
Also what does it matter who was in the GOAT debate or not. Fact is Ronaldo is in it. He's that good. If he is in it despite not being a mainstream twinkle toe dribbler that makes him all the better.
Love that. Can we also have a discussion on indie bands that were great before they signed to a major label?Depends on trait can make up for others. Messi's lack of heading ability due to his height means that he doesn't tick every box, but he still scores and creates his own goals at rate of the best scorers of all time. At the same time Ronaldo is probably the best header of all time which makes him difficult to take out of the game.
Ronaldo in 2014-2016 was still much all-round and better than current peak version of Lewandoski though, for example:
Ronaldo at 14-15
- 59 goals (league+CL)
- 19 assists
- avg rating 8.49 (best league)
- 19 motm
Lewandowski at 19-20
- 49 goals (league+CL)
- 9 assists
- avg rating 8.13 (4th league)
- 13 motm
I know they are only stats, which doesn’t matter much to you. But here’s footage performance of his 14-15 season, I don’t think Lewandowski could match that even during his recent peak.
I also think Messi is not as good from long range -- yes he has more but they are curlers from the edge of the box. Ronaldo's are generally screamers out of nowhere and as a team generally you are safe from Messi from a distance (yeah I know he's scored one against us from a distance).
Messi has also never been a proper winger running down the byline. It's just not his game and has always been more of a playmaker developing more so with time, but that's another thing Ronaldo beats him at. He has exceptionally good crossing and can whip crosses in from really tight angles.
The main ability that puts Ronaldo higher than Messi for me is his in game mentality, winner player, clutch player whatever you may call it. I know this irks Messi fans but to me and in my opinion that's what sets true greatness.
So for in his last three games btw Ronaldo:
last minute header to put Juve ahead, got chalked off for marginal offisde
2 goals to win the game for Portugal in the last minute
Decisive second goal to put United ahead in a tied situation.
The guy just has a habit of comebacks and lifting the team when they are down. If Ronaldo played in that Argentina team Messi has been playing for he'd have a world cup for sure. People love to show some Higuin miss but that's nothing compared to the chances Ronaldo's team mates miss on a regular basis.
Any great band is gonna suck because their hit songs are only "four chords". That would be a Messi fans. logic.
but how?
if Cristiano has superior heading game, Messi has superior passing and play making skills.
Ronaldo cannot create from deep, like Messi does. They both have things in which they are not as good as others. Cristiano can bull dozed his way to the goal, which Messi can, but he isnt as good as Cristiano because obviously physical limitation, but same way Cristiano does not initiate attacks like Messi does. Cristiano can jump as high as nearly 3m and score crazy headers, Messi cannot. Messi makes ridiculous passes on regular basis, Cristiano also has good passes but he does not have the weight/range of pass and vision that Messi has, Messi can make passes like De Bruyne/Pogba/Ozil.
So both have things, in which one is better than other. Messi is a well rounded player, just like Cristiano used to be, until he saw he needs to concentrate more on goals, because that is how he can contribute the most to this teams and win goals. Messi has been scoring and assisting goals in better ratio than Cristiano, while also been much more involved in the build up than Cristiano, so how is he behind Messi in the all roundedness? It cannot be because of just his physical prowess and aerial prowess. I mean before people used to say long range goals and free kicks, but Messi now has more long range goals than anyone in this century and more free kick goals than anyone who debuted in this century.
Surely you can't be serious? I agree with @shamans that in my lifetime, nobody matches Ronaldinho with regards to sheer manipulation of how and where he wants the ball to move. I'd also rate Zidane and Michael Laudrup higher than the likes of Messi and Ronaldo in terms of pure close control. Ball manipulation is simply a more fanciful term for ball control. And it is only one aspect of the game that comprises of many facets. That doesn't mean those aforementioned players are better than Ronaldo and Messi. If ball control is the be-all end-all, that would put most futsal freestylers ahead of professional footballers. But in reality, that isn't the case.
Ronaldo is definitely underrated in terms of how creative he was.
According to WhoScored, from August 2009 to August 2014, Ronaldo created 308 chances from open play in La Liga. During this 5-year period, only Messi created more chances from open play than he did (312).
Ronaldo - 165 La Liga appearances, 308 chances created in open play (1.867 per game)
Messi - 168 La Liga appearances, 312 chances created in open play (1.857 per game)
Between 2009 to 2015, Ronaldo produced 65 league assists. Behind only Messi, Ozil and Fabregas in the top five European leagues.
Before Ronaldo's final metamorphosis into a dangerous poacher who will punish any mistake and gobble up virtually any chance with his GOAT instincts and intelligent movement, he used to be an explosive player who created a truckload of chances with his speed, dynamism, dribbling and passing. While the majority of England fans were clamouring for Grealish during the recent Euro's with his ball carrying and progression ability, Ronaldo was all that and so much more. I do think that Messi is better than Ronaldo in terms of dribbling, vision and through balls. Messi is top 3 of all-time in those aspects IMO. However, to say that Ronaldo was not fantastic in those aspects during his prime is utterly ridiculous because it couldn't be any further from the truth.
PS: I tried to link the chances created tweets from WhoScored and OptaJoe however it wasn't successful because I'm still not allowed to post media yet unfortunately.
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You already have a good summary. When I say well rounded I mean that Messi's weaknesses are weaker than Ronaldo's.
Ronaldo could do most things to a higher level than everyone else, just some things he couldn't do better than players in the top tier of that category. For example, he couldn't create like prime Ozil, but his creativity was generally better than most others. He couldn't dribble like prime Messi, but his dribbling was generally better than most others. Etc. Very few stark weaknesses.
Messi's weaknesses are a bit more glaring to me. However, like it has been said, they are more than made up for by his strengths and Barcelona's playstyle (eg. lack of heading ability due to stature, but supreme dribbling and balance also due to stature).
So in general I do consider Ronaldo more well rounded, but Messi had sharper technical skills. And I prefer prime Ronaldo's playstyle over Messi's, but that's more personal preference than anything.
That was obviously a general description of things important to an attacking player. I also think Ronaldo's decision making is better than Neymar's so no need to be so defensive. Though you should be careful to put CR7 on such a high pedestal when it comes to decision making. The man took 70 free kicks for Juve and converted one.
Do you think he decided not to score the rest?
Ironic, since Nirvana is one of my all time favourites
No, but he should have decided not to take them.Do you think he decided not to score the rest?
No, he should have acknowledged that he's now pretty shit at them and let better free kick takers take them.Do you think he decided not to score the rest?
I was going to argue with you, but NevermindIronic, since Nirvana is one of my all time favourites
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