Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Gehrman]

While you raise some good points, bolded part is wrong. It was Messi who assisted Iniesta for the goal which put them through.

It was just a simple pass tbf. Just like Ronaldo's assist Vs porto was something like that. Anyway IT does my head in when footie fans think football is a 1 man game. Neither would have great club trophies if they played for Brentford.

 

[Righteous Steps]

You're right. And there are many other crucial games Messi didn't show up and his teammates saved him. The Champions League Final in 2015, Barcelona won 3-1, the goals were scored by Rakitik, Suarez and Neymar. In that match Messi was poor.

2015 Quarter Finals. Barcelona 5-1 PSG. Hatrick of Neymar and two goals of Suarez. Once again Messi didn't show up.

2015 Round of 16. Manchester City 1-2 Barcelona. Messi didn't show up again. Suarez scored two goals and gave Barcelona the win, Messi missed a penalty.

In the 2015 Champions League Neymar and Suarez were definitely way better than Messi, they both scored many more goals than Messi in the KO phase and in the Final.


In 2017 Barcelona lost 4-0 against PSG in the first leg, then in the second leg they won 6-1 with an incredible performance of Neymar, who score two goals and gave two assists, Suarez scored one goal in that game, and Messi didn't show up at all, we didn't even notice Messi was playing in that game against PSG. Neymar completely outshined him


2009 Semifinal. Chelsea 1-1 Barcelona, Iniesta scored a goal in the last minute and thanks to that goal Barcelona won and qualified for the Final.
In the first leg the result was Barcelona 0-0 Chelsea. So without Iniesta's goal Barcelona was out of the Champions League, Iniesta saved Barcelona and Messi. Without Iniesta's goal against Chelsea, Barcelona wouldn't have won the Champions League that year.

Copa America Final 2021, Argentina 1-0 Brazil, Di Maria scored the goal, and Messi was terrible in that game, his performance was awful.

So the conclusion is Messi didn't show up in so many games, and got saved by his teammates plenty of times, Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta, Di Maria...





Messi won 4 Champions Leaugues? That isn't true

In the Champions League that Barcelona won in 2006, Messi got injured in the first leg of the round of 16 and didn't play anymore, he was a non factor, he wasn't part of the team because he missed so many games.

Messi contributed nothing in the Champions League of 2006. Ronaldinho and Eto'o were the stars of Barcelona, they were the two players who gave Barcelona the Champions League in 2006 while Messi watched all the games on TV at home.

How do you judge not showing up, I’m pretty sure you mean not scoring or assistin because in the majority of games you mentioned of Messi didn’t have the most dribbles most chances created in the game I’d be very surprised. Messi not showing up and Ronaldo not showing up is two completely different things, Messi even in his bad games has a much bigger influence on the game of football all round in terms of passes dribbles playmaking etc.

 

[Lord SInister]

How do you judge not showing up, I’m pretty sure you mean not scoring or assistin because in the majority of games you mentioned of Messi didn’t have the most dribbles most chances created in the game I’d be very surprised. Messi not showing up and Ronaldo not showing up is two completely different things, Messi even in his bad games has a much bigger influence on the game of football all round in terms of passes dribbles playmaking etc.

I stopped reading after "Messi was poor in 2015 UCL final" , and you should have too.

 

[Fridge chutney]

FACTOS for the Ronaldo fanboys:

Ronaldo has one more CL title and more total goals. How impressive. How many other titles? Messi’s 38 titles superior to Ronaldo’s amount in their career. Ronaldo has to catch up.

Messi won the treble - twice!
Messi won more league titles while competing directly vs. Ronaldo’s Madrid.

Ronaldo’s obsession Ballon D’Or? Messi clear with 7. Again superior.
European Golden Shoes? Messi again superior.

Messi also superior goals/match and assist/match ratio.

Kinda pathetic how little Ronaldo is ahead in total goals with so many more matches played. LMFAO.

Messi’s goals+assists >>> Ronaldo’s goals+assists. FACTOS I should say.

Get on Messi’s level.

But I forget the selective memory of Ronaldo nuthuggers.
Only CL stats matter - not the entirety of their careers.

Yeah, Messi clear of Ronaldo.

Brings joy to the mind knowing Ronaldo and his fans know he will NEVER surpass Messi in his beloved Ballon D’Or trophies or in European Golden Shoes.
Neither will he surpass Messi in total trophies.

Comment on these facts, Ronaldo nuthuggers.

Are you 12 years old? Imagine being an adult and writing like this.

 

[Womp]

Just like the Shrek franchise - all good things must come to an end. Both seem to be struggling now towards the end of their careers which is very saddening to see tbh, don't think we'll see another rivalry as intense and talented as we have for a long time, if ever.

I've always been of the opinion that Messi was the more gifted footballer, probably the most gifted I've ever seen, but Ronaldo was a more determined player - he just seems to hate losing a lot more than Messi does, which is where he gets that competitive edge and drive.

Which one is better is always biased - both are superior at certain aspects of the game, guess it's what tickles your pickle at the end of the day.

 

[Davidd1]

While you raise some good points, bolded part is wrong. It was Messi who assisted Iniesta for the goal which put them through.

There are times where we have to give credit to the player who gives the assist, and there are times where we can't give him credit because the assist was irrelevant. In this case Messi's pass to Iniesta was absolutely nothing, you can bet Messi didn't even know Iniesta was going to shot from there.

In the following days of the Semifinal against Chelsea in 2009, everybody talked about Iniesta's extraordinary goal, everybody said Iniesta qualified Barcelona for the Final. Nobody talked about Messi, and the people who talked about Messi it was to say how bad Messi was in both legs.

Messi's pass to Iniesta was like Fred's pass to Ronaldo in his first goal against Tottenham last week. Both Messi and Fred's contribution in Iniesta and Ronaldo's goals were irrelevant, their assists were nothing. All the credit goes to Iniesta and Ronaldo. So I'm not wrong, Messi didn't show up in the Semifinal against Chelsea in 2009, and Iniesta saved him

Benzema is a top 5 cl scorer in history, Ramos the highest scoring defender in history, and Bale has scored multiple times in multiple CL finals.

Messi’s teammates have let him down FAR more often than Ronanldo’s but yes, Messi has been poor himself like against Roma and Bayern.

Suarez won the golden boot twice, and he won it in Ronaldo and Messi's prime years, that proves Suarez is a hell of a striker. Benzema never won the golden boot, he couldn't even be the top scorer of la liga in Messi's declining years.

Neymar was third in the ballon d'or in 2015 and 2017. And in 2016 he was fifth. Gareth Bale was always out of the top 10 in the ballon d'or except one time, some times even out of the top 30.

So Gareth Bale in his prime was in the top 10 of the ballon d'or list only one time, and he was sixth, that tells you every thing.

Iniesta and Xavi are far superior than Modric and Kroos, and that's not even a debate.

Messi had better teammates than Ronaldo.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

How do you judge not showing up, I’m pretty sure you mean not scoring or assistin because in the majority of games you mentioned of Messi didn’t have the most dribbles most chances created in the game I’d be very surprised. Messi not showing up and Ronaldo not showing up is two completely different things, Messi even in his bad games has a much bigger influence on the game of football all round in terms of passes dribbles playmaking etc.

The argument that began this line of inquiry was that Ronaldo's teammates "showed up" for him more than Messi's, by scoring crucial goals. So we are going with "scoring goals = showing up", not dribbling.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I generally think Messi is a better player than Ronaldo, and can influence the game more. But in the context of his failures, saying he has more abilities just makes him look bad, since it just leads to the question "well why didn't he use his multiple abilities to influence this game."

It's way too many underwhelming eliminations, the pattern is clearly there. I think he was probably affected by past performances (he 'retired' after the 2016 Copa America, clearly this stuff gets to him) and has not been able to fully recover from it. He wasn't always like this.

 

[Bebestation]

In Tennis - one of the most important factors when talking about their GOAT is their ability to succeed in courts of different kind and environments. You have to adapt your game to such courts because every court plays different both to yourself and the opposition.

In football Messi to me only ever succeeded in clay.

Ronaldo went and did it in Clay, Grass, Hard and artificial grass all because he wanted to take on the challenge and be known as the GOAT more than anyone else. He adapted to the speed, tactics of his own play and opposition, bounces of the ball, technical challenges and so so much more of every court he played in.

It feels so so weird to see Messi struggle in the French league of all leagues and everyone making excuses. Rashford gets tonnes of hate for the excuses he get but Messi is one of the biggest excused players in the world right now.

Dani Alves doesn't bring up his age as an excuse at all whilst the people that don't know him at all bring up his age as the main excuses whilst Dani Alves literally says he can't play outside his environment. I will believe Dani Alves more than anyone else.

A player of pure Clay.

The fans that like him can only read football with their eyes and have no ability to see/feel/think of the importance of adaptability in world football. Especially when considering the GOAT.

A pure player of Clay vs a player of every court he walks in to.

 

[Righteous Steps]

The argument that began this line of inquiry was that Ronaldo's teammates "showed up" for him more than Messi's, by scoring crucial goals. So we are going with "scoring goals = showing up", not dribbling.

But that’s so lazy because Messi game is far mor of rounded than someone like CR7 a lot of his better games don’t involve him scoring or assisting, you have to remember Messi is almost as much of a playmaker as he is a goal scorer.

 

[Righteous Steps]

I stopped reading after "Messi was poor in 2015 UCL final" , and you should have too.

Right.

 

[Davidd1]

I stopped reading after "Messi was poor in 2015 UCL final" , and you should have too.

It's the truth tough. In the 2015 UCL Final Messi was poor, he was saved by Rakitik, Neymar and Suarez.

Rakitik's goal was Neymar assist, so Neymar scored and gave an assist in that UFC Final.

And Iniesta won the MVP trophy in that 2015 UCF Final. So Rakitik, Neymar, Suarez and Iniesta, all of these four guys were better than Messi in the 2015 UCL Final

But that’s so lazy because Messi game is far mor of rounded than someone like CR7 a lot of his better games don’t involve him scoring or assisting, you have to remember Messi is almost as much of a playmaker as he is a goal scorer.

Ronaldo played very well in a lot of matches he didn't score and didn't assist. I'll give you an example. Semifinal vs Bayern 2018, second leg.

 

[Black Adder]

There are times where we have to give credit to the player who gives the assist, and there are times where we can't give him credit because the assist was irrelevant. In this case Messi's pass to Iniesta was absolutely nothing, you can bet Messi didn't even know Iniesta was going to shot from there.

In the following days of the Semifinal against Chelsea in 2009, everybody talked about Iniesta's extraordinary goal, everybody said Iniesta qualified Barcelona for the Final. Nobody talked about Messi, and the people who talked about Messi it was to say how bad Messi was in both legs.

Messi's pass to Iniesta was like Fred's pass to Ronaldo in his first goal against Tottenham last week. Both Messi and Fred's contribution in Iniesta and Ronaldo's goals were irrelevant, their assists were nothing. All the credit goes to Iniesta and Ronaldo. So I'm not wrong, Messi didn't show up in the Semifinal against Chelsea in 2009, and Iniesta saved him




Suarez won the golden boot twice, and he won it in Ronaldo and Messi's prime years, that proves Suarez is a hell of a striker. Benzema never won the golden boot, he couldn't even be the top scorer of la liga in Messi's declining years.

Neymar was third in the ballon d'or in 2015 and 2017. And in 2016 he was fifth. Gareth Bale was always out of the top 10 in the ballon d'or except one time, some times even out of the top 30.

So Gareth Bale in his prime was in the top 10 of the ballon d'or list only one time, and he was sixth, that tells you every thing.

Iniesta and Xavi are far superior than Modric and Kroos, and that's not even a debate.

Messi had better teammates than Ronaldo.

Erm what? Without that pass there's no goal from Iniesta, no goal means Chelsea in final and whole different outcome for years to come.

Same as Fred pass to Cristiano. Great indvidiual goal, but that little flick by Fred put Cristiano in position to adjust himself and strike what is top corner screamer. Without that flick there's no Cristiano with the ball and no attempt to strike and no goal.

Messi did have poor matches againt Chelsea by his high standards but he did influence second match with his pass wheter you like it or not. Once again, no pass from him and no goal= football history would look much different now.

 

[Righteous Steps]

It's the truth tough. In the 2015 UCL Final Messi was poor, he was saved by Rakitik, Neymar and Suarez.

Rakitik's goal was Neymar assist, so Neymar scored and gave an assist in that UFC Final.

And Iniesta won the MVP trophy in that 2015 UCF Final. So Rakitik, Neymar, Suarez and Iniesta, all of these four guys were better than Messi in the 2015 UCL Final




Ronaldo played very well in a lot of matches he didn't score and didn't assist. I'll give you an example. Semifinal vs Bayern 2018, second leg.

But he has way more game than Messi where he scores a goal or two and didn’t actually play well, I can remember at least two CL finals where he didn’t play well for example against Liverpool and Atletico.

 

[genardk]

But that’s so lazy because Messi game is far mor of rounded than someone like CR7 a lot of his better games don’t involve him scoring or assisting, you have to remember Messi is almost as much of a playmaker as he is a goal scorer.

MOTM without scoring a goal..

Messi - 61
Ronaldo - 9

Messi does not need to score a goal to dominate/influence a game just like Maradona.

 

[Righteous Steps]

MOTM without scoring a goal..

Messi - 61
Ronaldo - 9

Messi does not need to score a goal to dominate/influence a game just like Maradona.

Exactly I wasn’t even aware of that stat but thank you for posting it.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

MOTM is just about the most unscientific argument to bring up. Might as well say Messi's sexier.

 

[genardk]

MOTM is just about the most unscientific argument to bring up. Might as well say Messi's sexier.

better than using only goal stats for an otherwise invisible/average player in a game and calling him the best player on the pitch because he scored a goal..

 

[sherrinford]

Just like the Shrek franchise - all good things must come to an end. Both seem to be struggling now towards the end of their careers which is very saddening to see tbh, don't think we'll see another rivalry as intense and talented as we have for a long time, if ever.

I've always been of the opinion that Messi was the more gifted footballer, probably the most gifted I've ever seen, but Ronaldo was a more determined player - he just seems to hate losing a lot more than Messi does, which is where he gets that competitive edge and drive.

Which one is better is always biased - both are superior at certain aspects of the game, guess it's what tickles your pickle at the end of the day.

I've never understood how anyone could genuinely think Ronaldo was the superior player, or consequently how much of a rivalry the two of them are perceived as having?

Which aspects of the game is Ronaldo considered to be better than Messi in, exactly? And vice versa?

 

[Gehrman]

MOTM is just about the most unscientific argument to bring up. Might as well say Messi's sexier.

Most people can usually agree who was the best player on the pitch. The ones who actually watch games.

 

[Womp]

I've never understood how anyone could genuinely think Ronaldo was the superior player, or consequently how much of a rivalry the two of them are perceived as having?

Which aspects of the game is Ronaldo considered to be better than Messi in, exactly? And vice versa?

Ronaldo was/is a better header of the ball, stronger, faster.

Messi was the more technical player, better dribbler, passer, playmaker

Also even though I think Messi is the better player, I don't buy the motion that one was that superior to the other. They've gone head to head their whole careers

 

[Pickle85]

Most people can usually agree who was the best player on the pitch. The ones who actually watch games.

Ah didn't realise that Motm stat was based on a vote of everyone that watched the game.

 

[Pickle85]

MOTM without scoring a goal..

Messi - 61
Ronaldo - 9

Messi does not need to score a goal to dominate/influence a game just like Maradona.

'Most man of the match awards without scoring a goal' has to be the most ludicrous, nonsensical argument for any player being better than any other thats ever been made.

 

[Davidd1]

Erm what? Without that pass there's no goal from Iniesta, no goal means Chelsea in final and whole different outcome for years to come.

Same as Fred pass to Cristiano. Great indvidiual goal, but that little flick by Fred put Cristiano in position to adjust himself and strike what is top corner screamer. Without that flick there's no Cristiano with the ball and no attempt to strike and no goal.

Messi did have poor matches againt Chelsea by his high standards but he did influence second match with his pass wheter you like it or not. Once again, no pass from him and no goal= football history would look much different now.

By your logic you have to give credit to Eto'o as well, because if Eto'o hadn't passed the ball to Messi, he wouldn't have passed to Iniesta, and he wouldn't have scored.

And you have to give credit to Alves, because if it wasn't for his cross, then Eto'o wouldn't have passed the ball to Messi, and Iniesta wouldn't have scored.

You have to give credit to Xavi too, he's the one who passed to Alves before he crossed to ball. So without Xavi's pass, Iniesta would't have scored either.

And the one who passed to Xavi was Pique, so without Pique's pass, Iniesta doesn't score either.

And we can continue until we say Victor Valdes (Barcelonas's goalkeeper) was influential to Iniesta's goal.

You see? Messi's pass was absolutely nothing, and anyhow Messi's pass wasn't more important than the passes of every Barcelona player who participated in that play that ended in Iniesta's goal. Because without the passes of Eto'o, Alves, Xavi, Pique... the goal of Iniesta wouldn't have happened either.

Why do you think nobody talked about Messi's pass to Iniesta in the following days of that Semifinal? why do you think people only talked about Iniesta? because Messi's pass was nothing, he just happened to be the player who was closer to Iniesta and that's why he passed the ball to him.

The truth is Messi didn't show up in the Semifinal of the Champions League in 2009, he was very poor in both legs, and Iniesta showed up. This is the truth.

 

[Gehrman]

'Most man of the match awards without scoring a goal' has to be the most ludicrous, nonsensical argument for any player being better than any other thats ever been made.

Don't really think it is. It's just about a player being able being able to influence games more than the other apart from being great goalscorers. Of course some peope think motm awards are non-sensical in themselves, which I don't really understand. I'd imagine that on the caf the player who has the most motm votes ends being award player of the season for Man Utd usually.

 

[Pickle85]

Don't really think it is. It's just about a player being able being able to influence games more than the other apart from being great goalscorers. Of course some peope think motm awards are non-sensical in themselves, which I don't really understand. I'd imagine that on the caf the player who has the most motm votes ends being award player of the season for Man Utd usually.

Disagree. All it shows is that they played different roles which, for anyone that's watched them, is self evident. Its just another way of trying to twist statistics to fit a narrative.

 

[Black Adder]

By your logic you have to give credit to Eto'o as well, because if Eto'o hadn't passed the ball to Messi, he wouldn't have passed to Iniesta, and he wouldn't have scored.

And you have to give credit to Alves, because if it wasn't for his cross, then Eto'o wouldn't have passed the ball to Messi, and Iniesta wouldn't have scored.

You have to give credit to Xavi too, he's the one who passed to Alves before he crossed to ball. So without Xavi's pass, Iniesta would't have scored either.

And the one who passed to Xavi was Pique, so without Pique's pass, Iniesta doesn't score either.

And we can continue until we say Victor Valdes (Barcelonas's goalkeeper) was influential to Iniesta's goal.

You see? Messi's pass was absolutely nothing, and anyhow Messi's pass wasn't more important than the passes of every Barcelona player who participated in that play that ended in Iniesta's goal. Because without the passes of Eto'o, Alves, Xavi, Pique... the goal of Iniesta wouldn't have happened either.

Why do you think nobody talked about Messi's pass to Iniesta in the following days of that Semifinal? why do you think people only talked about Iniesta? because Messi's pass was nothing, he just happened to be the player who was closer to Iniesta and that's why he passed the ball to him.

The truth is Messi didn't show up in the Semifinal of the Champions League in 2009, he was very poor in both legs, and Iniesta showed up. This is the truth.

Great logic that, must admit I admire lenght you're willing to go to discredit Messi involvement

 

[Lord SInister]

It's the truth tough. In the 2015 UCL Final Messi was poor, he was saved by Rakitik, Neymar and Suarez.

Rakitik's goal was Neymar assist, so Neymar scored and gave an assist in that UFC Final.

And Iniesta won the MVP trophy in that 2015 UCF Final. So Rakitik, Neymar, Suarez and Iniesta, all of these four guys were better than Messi in the 2015 UCL Final

I take it as you didn't saw the 2015 final and just looked up for stats. To say he was poor is hilarious.

 

[Gehrman]

Disagree. All it shows is that they played different roles which, for anyone that's watched them, is self evident. Its just another way of trying to twist statistics to fit a narrative.

Yes they have had different roles because they have different attributes. Which is why Messi dropped deeper and was more involved in the game.

 

[Pickle85]

Yes they have had different roles because they have different attributes. Which is why Messi dropped deeper and was more involved in the game.

Sure. But, come on, 'most MoTMs without scoring a goal'...do you not think that's a bit of a reach to bolster one player's claim over the other?!

 

[genardk]

Sure. But, come on, 'most MoTMs without scoring a goal'...do you not think that's a bit of a reach to bolster one player's claim over the other?!

Just shows Ronaldo is way more unlikely to influence a game & impress fans without scoring a goal (a common view even on Redcafe even when not compared with Messi) vs Messi, nothing surprising here..

This point is important as Ronaldo fans love to compare both using "total number of goals" completely ignoring that Messi is not just an elite goal scorer that can easily match Ronaldo in terms of output but also an elite playmaker+passer+dribbler and drops deeper. In that regard, MOTM without goals stats is very useful..

 

[Gehrman]

Sure. But, come on, 'most MoTMs without scoring a goal'...do you not think that's a bit of a reach to bolster one player's claim over the other?!

No i dont tbh. Im pretty sure if the stats are available the same would apply to cryuff. Ronaldo's game since he turned into an elite goalscorer has been to be at the end of the final Ball while Messi might start an attack but be less focused on him receiving the final Ball. Just rewatch Messi's highlights of Barca's demolition of Madrid in 2010.

 

[Pickle85]

No i dont tbh. Im pretty sure if the stats are available the same would apply to cryuff. Ronaldo's game since he turned into an elite goalscorer has been to be at the end of the final Ball while Messi might start an attack but be less focused on him receiving the final Ball. Just rewatch Messi's highlights of Barca's demolition of Madrid in 2010.

Agree with all this, but it still doesn't make it a useful stat. As I say, all it does is prove that they assume different roles which, again, is no surprise.

Just shows Ronaldo is way more unlikely to influence a game & impress fans without scoring a goal (a common view even on Redcafe even when not compared with Messi) vs Messi, nothing surprising here..

This point is important as Ronaldo fans love to compare both using "total number of goals" completely ignoring that Messi is not just an elite goal scorer that can easily match Ronaldo in terms of output but also an elite playmaker+passer+dribbler and drops deeper. In that regard, MOTM without goals stats is very useful..

Or it shows that Ronaldo simply scored in more of the games for which he was nominated MoTM. Which is no surprise, given that he's scored more goals than Messi.

You can make stats stand on their head, which is what this seems to be to me.

 

[genardk]

Agree with all this, but it still doesn't make it a useful stat. As I say, all it does is prove that they assume different roles which, again, is no surprise.


Or it shows that Ronaldo simply scored in more of the games for which he was nominated MoTM. Which is no surprise, given that he's scored more goals than Messi.

You can make stats stand on their head, which is what this seems to be to me.

MOTM
Messi vs Ronaldo 295 vs 166

MOTM without goals
Messi vs Ronaldo 61 vs 9

MOTM with goals
Messi vs Ronaldo 234 vs 157

Ronaldo is well behind in all categories above..

 

[Pickle85]

MOTM
Messi vs Ronaldo 295 vs 166

MOTM without goals
Messi vs Ronaldo 61 vs 9

MOTM with goals
Messi vs Ronaldo 234 vs 157

Ronaldo is well behind in all categories above..

So why is the motm without goals relevant? Surely this is the more relevant stat?! Is magic what's possible when you're playing for a club that's basically been built around you for the last twenty years.

My beef with Messi was always that he had a club built around him and stayed within that comfort zone while they paid him. Others said 'well why would he leave?' which i get. The answer was when it made financial sense (again, can't argue with Messi there, we'd all do it). The result of that has been that, rightly or wrongly, it's become pretty easy to make the argument that Messi was only able to produce the top level he did at a club and system that was tailored to him and into which he was schooled since a teen.

 

[genardk]

So why is the motm without goals relevant? Surely this is the more relevant stat?! Is magic what's possible when you're playing for a club that's basically been built around you for the last twenty years.

My beef with Messi was always that he had a club built around him and stayed within that comfort zone while they paid him. Others said 'well why would he leave?' which i get. The answer was when it made financial sense (again, can't argue with Messi there, we'd all do it). The result of that has been that, rightly or wrongly, it's become pretty easy to make the argument that Messi was only able to produce the top level he did at a club and system that was tailored to him and into which he was schooled since a teen.

If you go back & see my initial comment with MOTM as a response to a poster above, you can see the relevance of MOTM without goals.

What's the problem with building a team around the GOAT? When you have a player like Messi, Maradona, you build a team around these guys and it pays off greatly.
Ronaldo had the same thing wherever he went.

Messi won Ballon D'ors, Golden Shoes, league top scorer awards, CL top scorer award, world's best playmaker award without Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar playing under mediocre managers with different play styles, playing with mediocre squads. You are talking as if Barca has always been a super team during these 20 years managed only by Guardiola for 20 years with the same game plan, that's not the case.

If anything, Ronaldo showed us he can't win much outside super teams such as SAF's United and Real. He won his last Ballon D'or in 2017, Golden Shoe in 2015 and could just win a single league top goal scorer award in the last 7 years, not good for a GOAT level striker, not to mention his CL failures last 4 years and league failures with Juve & now with United,
One can also easily make the argument that Ronaldo had chosen to become a more limited player by focusing only on goals over time and now a poacher. Messi did not make such major trade-offs, in fact the opposite, the guy has been moving with each passing year to a deeper role at Barca and Argentina and at PSG, is not obsessed with his goal stats yet won 5 Pichichis and 3 Golden Shoes in a row between 2016-2021.

 

[Pickle85]

If you go back & see my initial comment with MOTM as a response to a poster above, you can see the relevance of MOTM without goals.

What's the problem with building a team around the GOAT? When you have a player like Messi, Maradona, you build a team around these guys and it pays off greatly.
Ronaldo had the same thing wherever he went.

Messi won Ballon D'ors, Golden Shoes, league top scorer awards, CL top scorer award, world's best playmaker award without Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar playing under mediocre managers with different play styles, playing with mediocre squads. You are talking as if Barca has always been a super team during these 20 years managed only by Guardiola for 20 years with the same game plan, that's not the case.

If anything, Ronaldo showed us he can't win much outside super teams such as SAF's United and Real. He won his last Ballon D'or in 2017, Golden Shoe in 2015 and could just win a single league top goal scorer award in the last 7 years, not good for a GOAT level striker, not to mention his CL failures last 4 years and league failures with Juve & now with United,
One can also easily make the argument that Ronaldo had chosen to become a more limited player by focusing only on goals over time and now a poacher. Messi did not make such major trade-offs, in fact the opposite, the guy has been moving with each passing year to a deeper role at Barca and Argentina and at PSG, is not obsessed with his goal stats yet won 5 Pichichis and 3 Golden Shoes in a row between 2016-2021.

The point is that he's always remained in that comfort zone, at a club that ensures that everything goes through him. He's not always played under managers of the calibre of Guardiola but he's always played in the same club and structure and that team, with a few tweaks here and there, have broadly played the same way, stylistically.

As for the second part I've bolded, Ronaldo has won the league everywhere he's been, almost always while being the best player. The FIRST time Messi steps outside of barca and he looks a shadow of the player he supposedly was. Its no surprise people question whether he's a baller outside of barca. As available evidence so fat suggests not.

 

[Gehrman]

The point is that he's always remained in that comfort zone, at a club that ensures that everything goes through him. He's not always played under managers of the calibre of Guardiola but he's always played in the same club and structure and that team, with a few tweaks here and there, have broadly played the same way, stylistically.

As for the second part I've bolded, Ronaldo has won the league everywhere he's been, almost always while being the best player. The FIRST time Messi steps outside of barca and he looks a shadow of the player he supposedly was. Its no surprise people question whether he's a baller outside of barca. As available evidence so fat suggests not.

Yeah, Barca started building around Messi when he became the best player in the world. Just like United started building around Ronaldo when he became the best player in the world. Logic. 34 year old Messi being wank at PSG. No quibbles there, I just don't buy it that it would apply to a 24 year old Messi.

But about Messi's comfort zone. Would anyone really accuse Ronaldo of staying in his comfort zone if he spent his entire career at United? I honestly don't think so.

 

[genardk]

The point is that he's always remained in that comfort zone, at a club that ensures that everything goes through him. He's not always played under managers of the calibre of Guardiola but he's always played in the same club and structure and that team, with a few tweaks here and there, have broadly played the same way, stylistically.

As for the second part I've bolded, Ronaldo has won the league everywhere he's been, almost always while being the best player. The FIRST time Messi steps outside of barca and he looks a shadow of the player he supposedly was. Its no surprise people question whether he's a baller outside of barca. As available evidence so fat suggests not.

Ronaldo could only win a single top goal scorer award in 7 years. He could not win Ballon D'ors or Golden Shoes for a very long time. Winning a league title with Juve that has been winning 8 years in a row prior to Ronaldo's arrival or United under SAF is not a big deal, losing is. The guy could only win 2 league titles in 9 years with Real.

You are criticizing Messi staying in Barca for so long ignoring the fact that he played under mediocre managers with different play styles.

Where would Ronaldo be if he showed some loyalty and stayed at United (and after SAF left) just like Messi at Barca playing in the same club and structure but with different managers like Ole & different teammates? Would staying at such United be a less of a challenge than playing for superior Real just because he changed nations? or would you criticize his loyalty or superiority because he chose to stay at United at good & bad times?

 

[Pickle85]

Yeah, Barca started building around Messi when he became the best player in the world. Just like United started building around Ronaldo when he became the best player in the world. Logic. 34 year old Messi being wank at PSG. No quibbles there, I just don't buy it that it would apply to a 24 year old Messi.

But about Messi's comfort zone. Would anyone really accuse Ronaldo of staying in his comfort zone if he spent his entire career at United? I honestly don't think so.

The difference was that Messi came to Barça at an age where he could be folded into their philosophy and have it impressed on him. I think this is apples and oranges tbh, as United have not really had a tactical 'ethos' as clearly and consistently applied as Barca, post Cruyff.