You said he was invisible against Atletico minus his 3 goals which is simply untrue (considering he also initiated the plays for 2 of the goals).
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Fair enough, he wasn't invisible.
That one year sure makes a lot of difference.
Barca played with only two days off between games after a tough match against Atletico. The entire team looked off outside of Pique. United had a week off.
Next leg we should see a much better performance.
Next leg we should see a much better performance.
A set piece? Corner? Half decent cross?
Barca had 3 full days between games. They were good until we switched tactics.
Obviously they're a different beast at Camp Nou.
That is so wrong. He's not that type of player??? What type of player is he then? The problem here is that you've watched three or four Juventus matches all season, there is a reason he has more assists than any other Juventus player this season. Put Messi 60 meters from goal getting balls hoofed up to De Ligt's head and what do you think he'd do? Does he become Pippo Inzaghi reincarnated too?
I mean, you have actually no way of knowing because he has pretty much never had to play in similar circumstances one single time in all of his career but hypothetically what do you think happens? That he'd get the ball back from Ajax by pressing them and make the other players on the team stop giving the ball away? He'd magically turn Matuidi into Arthur and Sandro into Alba? You think you see him create 2 or 3 chances instead?
There isn't one single forward in the history of the sport that won't stuggle to create in the circumstances Ronaldo played in yesterday. One.
You don't remember the goal that wasn't given? Or the Bernardeschi bycicle? Or the freekick that Mandzukic nearly scored from? Who started the moves for the goals?
You need to watch the game again. He was involved in pretty much every single chance they created that day... Same for the first leg match. Started the move for his own goal yesterday too.
3 days isn’t much but all teams go through it. Atletico are an exhausting opponent.
Ole’s tactics were good, I agree. Valverde seemed content with a 1-0.
I agree with your points, but Messi in Argentina is a pretty dire situation as well. Worse than Ronaldo on Juve.
Assists =/= creativity.
Ronaldo is the type of player that is always focused on scoring a goal in any situation he's in. That's why he's the best player in the world. He's an infinitely better player than the guys from Ajax you mentioned, yet swapping him with Ziyech would completely break up the attacking play style of Ajax, because he's not suited for the quick passing style of attacking Ajax have. Being as good as he is, I'm sure he would be able to adjust, but he's never played for a side that plays like Ajax.
And no, I don't mean Ajax are better than Real Madrid or Juventus, just different. That's the key here. Different, not better, not worse (well, he's obviously also much better than Ziyech) but different.
Why is it so hard to admit that Ronaldo is not the best at everything? He doesn't fecking have to be. He also seems like a shite person to go out for a beer with, who cares, he's just some self absorbed cnut kicking a ball about.
Ronaldo is the type of player that is always focused on scoring a goal in any situation he's in. That's why he's the best player in the world. He's an infinitely better player than the guys from Ajax you mentioned, yet swapping him with Ziyech would completely break up the attacking play style of Ajax, because he's not suited for the quick passing style of attacking Ajax have. Being as good as he is, I'm sure he would be able to adjust, but he's never played for a side that plays like Ajax.
And no, I don't mean Ajax are better than Real Madrid or Juventus, just different. That's the key here. Different, not better, not worse (well, he's obviously also much better than Ziyech) but different.
Why is it so hard to admit that Ronaldo is not the best at everything? He doesn't fecking have to be. He also seems like a shite person to go out for a beer with, who cares, he's just some self absorbed cnut kicking a ball about.
My point is that Ronaldo still needs his teammates more than Messi to score goals which isn't saying Messi does it all on his own of course.
Their whole team dropped a level because most of their key players underperformed and Zidane was refused funds to invest which led to him leaving. He already saw the signs, coupled + Ronaldo leaving. Just to be clear, Ronaldo's departure had an impact but to make it seem it's the only thing that made the difference is crazy.
You cant use the they are older excuse if it's only been a year. The rest is fair enough.
How many headed goals for Ronnie now in the knock-out stages? He has like 64 goals, and it feels like at least 33% of those were with his head.
Kluivert used to be my favourite header of all times in terms of natural talent, technique, timing and style. But Ronaldo has to be at least twice as effective at them as Kluivert, and surely all things considered he's probably the best attacking header of a football in the whole 150 years of this sport?
Kluivert used to be my favourite header of all times in terms of natural talent, technique, timing and style. But Ronaldo has to be at least twice as effective at them as Kluivert, and surely all things considered he's probably the best attacking header of a football in the whole 150 years of this sport?
Either him or Luuk de Jong.
That's not an excuse, that's a fact. The signs were there, their best players were on their last legs, they won the CL with some luck
He is perfectly suited for it though. Juve simply don't play like that. He has everything necessary to be able to adapt to that style of football, hopefully we still get to see it. Guardiola moving to Juve in a couple of years would be nice.
He blatantly isn't the best at it though, never said he was. Messi is better on the ball as are other players. He's still elite at it though.
There is a lot of grey area between the likes of Messi/Hazard and Inzaghi/Muller. His passing, ball retention, decision making and ability to create might not be at Messi's level but it's still at a very high level even now at 34 years old.
People forget that Real Madrid were shit for most of last season even with Ronaldo in the team - they were 17pts adrift of Barcelona last season and they are 13pts adrift now. They turned up for a handful of games and got a nice slice of luck in the CL but that was considered a cup that papered over the cracks.
Spot on.
Barca were much more ruthless and consistent in the league last year. They didn’t lose a single game till like near the end of the season. A few match days or something. They’re definitely worse this year yet Madrid are still trailing by a large margin.
were
Using age as an excuse for a difference in performance for one year is not a fact, its pushing an agenda.
It's not about the age per se, it's about the fact that their team needed refreshing, they needed new players and once it was clear nothing was gonna happen on that front, Zidane left.
Teams go through cycles and Real Madrid's was at its end, they were terrible in their league but somehow managed to win the CL (thanks to a big effort from Ronaldo vs Juve for instance). I don't have any agenda, Ronaldo is the greatest goalscorer in the CL, I'd choose him over Messi for this competition, no doubt. I just keep things objective.
They weren't shit for most of the season, they were shit for a few months at the start of it.
They got 44 points in the second half of the season and a lot of the points they dropped there was due to resting players for the CL. Had to go through Dortmund, Spurs, PSG, Juventus, Bayern and Liverpool to win the Champions League.
You can take the stats you want out of it, but watching them play this year it's beyond obvious they could never do that. It's not hard to see how much weaker they've become, the points total actually flatters them as they got plenty of unfair points. They added Vinicius who sent them on a great streak of results halfway through too.
In the circumstances he played yesterday, the same Ronaldo of 10 years ago would destroy Ajax.
No one other than Guardiola's Barcelona would dare to play like that against Ronaldo 10 years ago and get away with only 1 goal against.
Messi already played in the circumstances you mention, Mascherano, Biglia, Gago, Lavezzi, Zabaleta, Rojo and Enzo Perez weren't better players than Betancur, Pjanic, Bernardeschi, Matuidi, Dybala, Douglas Costa, Cancelo or Alex Sandro, the only players that made that team seem functional with the ball were Di Maria (gone for the last two games) and Messi.
Or now you're going to tell us that, name by name, the Ajax midfield is better than the Juve one, or that all the blame is in Allegri for being an awful manager that can't use Ronaldo in a different role to the one he's been playing for almost 5 years now, so the midfield suffers from it?.
For the love of god, this same Ajax made Reguilon and Vinicius look like Lahm and Robben just a month ago.
Madrid's cycle wasn't at an end. It ended because Perez decided to end it. The only old players they had were Ramos, Modric and Ronaldo and they're still at the same level.
They keep Ronaldo and add a couple of new faces to properly challenge the complacent players in the starting eleven and we'd probably be talking about how they're the favourites to win it for a fourth time in a row.
No they aren't, you cannot be serious with this. If they had kept Ronaldo then probably their season would have been better, I never disputed that. It's saying or implying something like Ronaldo is THE only reason they're worse than last season that I find stupid. It's a combo of several things, Ronaldo leaving, no new players, Zidane leaving etc etc..
Not if they had Di Maria, Ozil and Benzema... how did Spain do vs the Ronaldo of 10 years ago? He can't counter by himself. The team has to actually escape pressure and show intent to get forward. If they escape pressure and there's noone else running forward then the right decision is to keep possessionIn the circumstances he played yesterday, the same Ronaldo of 10 years ago would destroy Ajax.
No one other than Guardiola's Barcelona would dare to play like that against Ronaldo 10 years ago and get away with only 1 goal against.
That Argentina team has never been pushed back and dominated like this with so little attacking intent. The players aren't bad, Juve has a very good team obviously. It's the strategy and style of play that makes it harder for him the same way Atletico's style of play makes it tough for Griezmann. Messi has never played in a team like this and the few times anything similar happened he's regularly failed to perform.
No, it's not a bad decision by Allegri. His aim is to get the result, not to put Ronaldo in the best possible circumstances for him to shine.
And he is playing a completely different role than in the past years.
And if they played yesterday for Juve they wouldn't... and the defense wouldn't have had to go through the same amount of chances either.
Well I think that's a lot!
They were shit for the whole season.
They got a last minute (dodgy) penalty in the 1st half of their duel vs PSG at home that helped them calm down in the second half, were PSG missed a bunch of chances, and for the 2nd leg they lost their best player
They miraculously went through Juve even after Ronaldo scored 2 goals in the Juve stadium, with another 25th hour penalty after a disastrous performance, they were worse than they were this year in the debacle vs Ajax
They went through bayern due to some circumstances like Ulreich, the game Navas had or Muller missing this at the end, for example
They won the final, Liverpool lost their best player in the first 30 minutes, Karius gifted a goal to Benzema, Bale scored a bicycle goal from 20 meters and Karius had another howler.
Now, leaving aside that everything counts in football, you can't look at that team run the past season, and, even after they won, say that they weren't shit, Portugal won an Euro playing like shit, Greece did the same, Chelsea won another CL being dire and with everyone knowing that squad was done for.
Vinicius came in and was one of their best players. They added Courtois, Odriozola, Vinicius, Brahim, Reguilon and Mariano for a total of about 150 million. This isn't Madrid's 2017/18 team minus Ronaldo, it's Madrid's 2017/18 team minus Ronaldo plus 150 million of investment on top of it.
Zidane is back. They've already spent 100 million on Rodrygo and Militão for next season to add to the 150 million spent last year. Will spend about 300 million more... let's see them win CL title after CL title or at least consistently get to the semifinals in the next few seasons while Ramos, Modric and Kroos keep their level.
We'll see what happens, I'm shit at predicting things but obviously replicating a success of 3 CLs in a row or anything close to it is highly unlikely. Their first step is to be a credible team in Spain first.
Vinicius is too raw, him being one of their best players doesn't mean much, he's like Rashford. Needs time and patience to further develop, Courtois is arguably worse than Navas. The rest are interesting, this is defo a new beginning for them.
Portugal, Greece and Chelsea played negative football and defended their way to the title. Madrid didn't. They didn't win it once or twice. Three times in a row and people still pretend it's all luck.
Carvajal got injured in the final, Ramos got suspended for the Juve second leg, Navas fecked up plenty of times before the Bayern tie, they had plenty of wasted chances, unlucky moments and dodgy ref decisions against them but people only remember those that favoured the winners.
If anything they were unlucky by getting possibly the worst draw in the history of the competition.
If Madrid had kept Ronaldo, regardless of how bad and lucky people might say they were... would anyone have bet against them winning the Champions League again?
With Vinicius coming in and giving a spark to their attack all they needed was one ready midfielder good enough to challenge Casemiro-Kroos-Modric and a centreback to challenge Varane. A couple of signings was all it took. Instead Ronaldo left, they didn't get any new established players to challenge the ones already there and Zidane left because of it.
Perez ended a cycle that didn't need to be ended. He straight up gave up on winning a 4th Champions League title in a row and he should lose his job for showing a lack of ambition that should never be accepted at Real Madrid.
With Vinicius coming in and giving a spark to their attack all they needed was one ready midfielder good enough to challenge Casemiro-Kroos-Modric and a centreback to challenge Varane. A couple of signings was all it took. Instead Ronaldo left, they didn't get any new established players to challenge the ones already there and Zidane left because of it.
Perez ended a cycle that didn't need to be ended. He straight up gave up on winning a 4th Champions League title in a row and he should lose his job for showing a lack of ambition that should never be accepted at Real Madrid.
They played a Catalan Derby, a 4-4 game vs Villareal and then a title decider vs Atleti in the space of 8 days and then 3-4 days after that they faced United. Sure they're rubbish away from home in CL games but they were definitely jaded here and when we face them next week we'll be facing a Barcelona side where Messi and Suarez are coming off a 7 day rest and Dembele will be back. That will be our true test.
They'd have definitely atleast made the Semis with Ronaldo still there but I don't think Vinicus would have had much or any impact if Ronaldo was there. He's also going to find himself struggling for any game time at all if Hazard comes in.
Depending on the coach being there, it's hard to tell but it would defo increase their chances no doubt. Vinicius would probably be on the bench still.
I think they can continue to be rubbish in the League but keep competing well in the CL. Their team, for the last decade, has rarely been good or consistent enough over 38 games but they're beasts in the Cup.
The Spain of 10 years ago had the best midfield ever and they had to 1) use Llorente to open up Portugal in the WC and 2) go to the penalties in the Euro.
And that was Del Bosque's Spain, as much as they had the same players Aragones had in 2008 or Guardiola in Barcelona, they were way more defensive than anything Ajax has pulled this year in the UCL, we won a WC and a EC with only 3 goals against in 13 games.
The rest of what you said, I used those concepts too about Messi and Valverde, or Messi and Argentina, but you keep saying that any team he's played in has been tailored to his needs and lives or dies by his will, if you say that Barcelona and Argentina are slow, predictable, and limited because of Messi, it's rather shocking hearing you say that this Ronaldo could very well play tiki-taka with Ajax, and the only reason Juve play this way is because Allegri wants results, not using Ronaldo to his full potential or benching Dybala.
By the way, I'd love to see all the people (not directed at you) that said in the thread Dybala didn't play with Argentina because it messed with Messi's performances and he was a tyrant for that, do the mental gymnastics to explain why it's happening again now that there's, again, a better player than him in the squad.
Once you get to the semis with the experience and winning mentality that team had, they'd be favourites for it. Good chance you end up playing a team like Spurs or United after one of the favourites gets a surprise too.
I geniunely believe they'd have had a great chance of winning it again if Ronaldo stayed even with all the problems. Would have been easier for Ronaldo to win it at Madrid than with Juve too.
You're right. This will be Zidane's true test IMHO, he's at the helm of a real building job now.
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