So basically they were both poor
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Of course he can, I've never said he wasn't a #10. I'm not the one getting caught up on positons, you are.
Because he wasn't pressed efficiently by Spurs, how are you not understanding this?
In your standard right? But in my standard I don't call both players poor because they were nullified and couldn't do much in a difficult game and situation. That's why I gave the credit to Lallana and Park.
Edit:
Your standard of poor is like players can't do much is called poor. To me if they can't do much because of the situation they are given then I won't call it poor or good either. It's like saying De Gea wasn't poor and wasn't good either against Arsenal even though he did nothing much & didn't make a single save but still conceded a goal like when Giroud scored when we faced arsenal because other players were unable to stop Giroud and Ox.
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Yeah but you called him winger when he is a no 10. And in that post when you started to call him a winger, you made it sounds like that it was lame because Carrick couldn't get away from "winger" who man marked him while Pirlo couldn't get away from a winger too who man marked him.
I have said this before. Being pressed in a game is different with being man mark or followed and watched the whole time.
Does it really matter on the grand scheme of things whether he's classified as a winger or an attacking midifelder. Does it really have any relevance to the point in question? And you wonder why people get exasperated when trying to discuss points with you.
Yeah, by two players apparently.
You are trivialising things there. A keeper not being in the game is not the same as a midfielder who is there to dictate tempo and start attacks. Also if a player is marked its their job to find space. You're going to tell me if a striker is man marked and he doesn't loose his marker all game he hasn't had a poor game? Its no slight he had a poor game, mainly because of Liverpools tactics, it can happen.
If I'm not mistaken I discussed about it because you don't have much idea about Lallana. And you made it sounds lame that Carrick was stopped by Lallana. And you also made it sounds lame that Carrick couldn't get away from a "winger" when Pirlo also couldn't get away from a winger. So I can't see the difference why being winger means you can't get credit for successful man mark a deeplying playmaker.
Some people get exasperated because there are some people like you who aren't willing to accept two different opinions in a discussion. I have seen your posts a lot mate and you did have a lot of argument with other people because you aren't willing to accept different opinion in a discussion and I can see how you got more than 10000 posts.
You dont seem to be agree with my point of Carrick being man marked just like Pirlo. But you can't against it so you decided to bring up another topic that you disagree with. If you disagree with Firmino helped Lallana to stop Carrick, you can always ignore it because all you have been doing is like a circling with no end. Just ignore my post mate if you can't accept two different opinions in a discussion.Yeah, by two players apparently.
Disagree. Carrick was target of pressing (can be pressed by more than one if he stepped into their zone) vs Pirlo being man marked by Park only. Big difference if you specifically talk about tactic. Pirlo did get into game, but not as good as he could when being free. We as a team were better than AC Milan. Our players dominated other AC Milan left right and center That's it. Go rewatch that game. Pirlo still dribbled past Park. Park was able slow down Pirlo so we could have time to regroup, not that Pirlo needed to drop deep between the CBs and sideway pass all game.
Vs L'pool, with all these off form players, we're still pretty much even and edged L'pool in chances. Carrick was pressed out of game.
Lallana and Firmino marked Carrick out the game. Herrera and Pogba particularly didn't help matters.
Look, I thought we have come out with conclusion that we have two different of standard in previous page? Remember that? Why are you still insisting to force me to have the same standard as you?
We have seen De Gea made crazy saves. A saved that looks impossible he was able to save them. I don't expect De Gea to save Giroud's goal in that situation but I won't be surprised if he was able to do it since he made more difficult saves before. So my point is he did nothing much in that game and didn't save the Giroud's goal because there is nothing much he can do in that situation so I won't call him good or bad either.
A striker being marked is normal every game and that's why they need to know how to get away from defender. But you don't see a deeplying playmaker being marked every single game like that. And that's why you have to give credit to the ones who are able to do such a task.
So someone agrees with you, you're already well into discussion with plenty of people who do not. Show we proof of your ridiculous claim and then maybe someone might pay attention to you.
I didn't reply your post the other day because I know we will not agree anymore but you came back again with a similar post. So don't blame me if you get exasperated okay?
Okay let's talk about it.
Pirlo tried but it's different with he did get into a game. He tried to get into a game but he failed because Park keep took the ball from him as a result they lost 4-0 because Pirlo kept losing the ball from Park. Carrick was watched and followed by Lallana (the player who man marked him most of the time) when Carrick was off the ball (watch the game again and look at Lallana kept an eye on Carrick the whole time). Unlike Pirlo, Carrick didn't want to lose possession, as Herrera and Pogba didn't help him so he passed it backwards and that's why Liverpool only had 1 shot on target (penalty) in first half.
Both Pirlo and Carrick couldn't do much. Give credit to the one who man marked them.
Jesus man, can't you comprehend the worth of this pointless argument? It holds no purpose whatsoever! How does it make any difference whether Lallana is a winger or an attacking midfielder when it comes to the ability of marking? Please answer that question, directly.
Lallana pressed Carrick as did Firmino. Lallana also pressed Pogba and Herrera. That doesn't mean they were marking them. Your entire basis of any argument seems to be correlation implies causation.
It's laughable how utterly lost hypocrisy is on you. You're having this very conversation with at least two other people in this thread as we speak! It seems the only heated debates carrying on here include you, just a coincidence though right? And that doesn't include Raees who stated just on the previous page that it's utterly pointless having a conversation with you. Still, I wonder if you're going to come out with the 'you don't read my post properly' or 'you can't accept my opinion' line next?
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I'm not I simply pointed out your keeper analogy was trivialising things. You are free to not reply
We agree to disagree on different matter. I just found that post is so wrong and need to clarification of different tactic being employed. It's the discussion forum after all. I don't blame anything. We can always agree to disagree.
Here again agree to disagree. Pirlo did not constantly losing the ball to Park. Same with Carrick giving the ball away in L'pool game. Difference Pirlo still in game and had AC still created chance through Pirlo play. Carrick was out of game and didn't even try to get into it. Pogba and Herrera did try to help, but didn't improve.
When we're at it: Herrera didn't have the best game but far from bad. He's the creator of our few chances. We couldn't build up through our line. What we did was play direct and pick up loose ball/rebound/counter press L'pool player and start attack, which Herrera was our best play. If someone try to play exempt Carrick of his failure and frame Herrera into the net, any Herrera fanboys can spin the matter and counter that with Herrera didn't receive enough support from behind.
To give other credit, I need to repeat this point. Klopp realized we can also press well so he had his L'pool players to boot the long ball in case being pressed. L'pool played more long ball. Big difference between this game and our game vs Tottenham. Tottenham tried to play through the line and caught by our pressing. So our front pressed and L'pool couldn't build up through the line and they decided play percentage long ball. It's not solely Carrick shielding the back 4 that can have all the credit. If we have Cleverley, disinterested Rooney in place of Herrera & Pogba(bad game), then we're back having team running through our midfield like old days. Point is Herrera & Pogba having their own job. What if it's more of Carrick failure to follow and support their pressing than they failed to support Carrick? Carrick was subbed after all.
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@ivaldo
Fine, if you don't wanna talk to bwuk. What about you talk to this guy. Sometime you need to know how to accept it. There is always different opinions in the discussion. You always argue with people because you can't accept it. No wonder you are in my ignore list.
Edit (my standard):
But you also seem can't accept "my standard" of both Carrick and Pirlo didn't have a poor game and good game either. I wa
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Why don't you talk to Raees, Cassidy or Ti Vu... Oh look we can both find other people who disagree. Sometimes you need to know how to accept it.
Funny how you didn't respond to the question I specifically asked you to respond to, is it because you realised how utterly ridiculous you've been to continually bring it up?
Oh look another person you are accusing of 'not accepting your opinon' while simultaneously not accepting theirs. Maybe you should accuse him of not reading your posts properly, you haven't used that one in 10 minutes.
What surprised me the most is how you made it sounds like Carrick gave the ball away many times but he actually only gave the ball away once. His three unsuccessful passes were gave the ball away once, one of his forward pass was being intercepted and the other one is his attempt to make a long ball failed due to too much power and pace. Carrick did keep the possession. He was just being nullified that's all. Couldn't do much just like Pirlo (in my opinion).
To quote my self
"Pirlo did not constantly losing the ball to Park. Same with Carrick giving the ball away in L'pool game. Difference..."
Do you understand with "same with". Let me spell it out for you: "Carrick didn't give the ball away that much in L'pool game". So the first two sentences are in agreement. The difference starts with third sentences.
We can agree to disagree on your assessment on Pirlo. I already explained my view. I won't repeat. I respect your opinion so no point into repeat it again.
Edit: this is not toward you, just don't feel like making a separate post.
Before the possession based football trend which favors safe passing, play makers take risk and kinda wasteful in possession. See Veron
Pirlo is not master of possession football neither. He takes plenty of risk. I never understand why people often mistake him into a Carrick, Alonso, Busquet... even Xavi kind of player. He's a deep play maker which quite some players also claim the description but his style is distinctive. He takes risk with dribble, long pass, no look pass... and don't hide from taking risk. He's not particular as good in defensive aspect of his game compare to other so would require a defensive specialist partner to chip in and help. Anyways, point is if using lower pass completion to base any of Pirlo's individual performance, then it's very misleading and would give false reading.
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Yeah I just hope you don't come back again with the similar post because I ignored it last time but you came back again with the similar post and opinion.
I won't return to old topic when we already agree to disagree. Unless you bring up new topic, and it sounds off track. Anyways, cheers
we can agree to disagree no, why do I have to accept it?
Wasn't meant to say you need to switch the standard to mine. But you can still accept that we have two different standards that's what I meant.
Yeah I believe I did
We missed Carrick today. We picked a plan B at the start of game against Stoke instead of trying to control the midfield. Herrera didn't look comfortable in this role just like what happened against Liverpool in second half.
Would have won the game had Carrick played.
Don't know whether the Carrick factor is more an odd flukey streak or he does really make the sizeable difference, but for now he should be an untouchable.
Probably bit of both. Imo it's down to 3 things 1) when Carrick plays, it's usually in a 3 man midfield (which is the best formation you can play) 2) when he doesn't play, we play 2 men (not good) and 3) the times we do play 3 men, it's the wrong positions i.e Fellani as the furthest forward (ffs).
I've said it before but the 'biggest' influence of Carrick playing is the fact it means we're a 3 man midfield. That extra body alone, regardless, is the most important factor. However, having said that, it's stupid to indirectly force your best 2 midfielders (Pogba and Herrera) to play behind your weakest one (Fellani), even if it is still 3 in the middle.
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Thing is, when he plays, I think Herrera and Pogba are in higher positions which gets the best out of both of them and is better for the team (herreras pressing is higher which means we can win the ball in more dangerous areas).
Without him, Herrera seems to be deeper, which means Pogba comes deeper (esp if Fellaini is playing).
Saying that, it sounds like we still created chances anyway and the goal wasnt really one he might have stopped from happening.
Without him, Herrera seems to be deeper, which means Pogba comes deeper (esp if Fellaini is playing).
Saying that, it sounds like we still created chances anyway and the goal wasnt really one he might have stopped from happening.
It's ridiculous that, we can't win games when he doesn't play.
Herrera and Pogba are just completely freed up when he is behind them. Jose didn't play his best team today.
Carrick makes Pogba and Herrera better which means our team plays better
Today is Mourinho's wrong tactic as I said in the Pogba thread: Stoke was too shite to attack us outside the fluky chance with couple individual errors which we concede. We don't really need Fellaini for set piece( defense or offense). We lack runner in behind (which later Rashford and Lingard subs offered. We're more much more positive when they're on, but already too late). I don't think we need Carrick today. We just need runners take advantage of Stoke shaky defense. Instead we went at them at their strength: physical game with plenty scrappy, loose ball... We need the extra attackers in no 10 or second forward area or winger, but Mourinho decided to use Fellaini instead
Too many times, Herrera & Pogba look up searching for out ball just too see nobody making running behind. (Still got few through and failed finishing, but that's for another thread).
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Yeah Mourinho got it wrong. He's still afraid to play more adventurously or rather, make the team play with more intensity. The least of amount of distance covered in the league or something is alarming. That's where we look so static. Not enough running.Today is Mourinho's wrong tactic as I said in the Pogba thread: Stoke was too shite to attack us outside the fluky chance with couple individual errors which we concede. We don't really need Fellaini for set piece( defense or offense). We lack runner in behind (which later Rashford and Lingard subs offered. We're more much more positive when they're on, but already too late). I don't think we need Carrick today. We just need runners take advantage of Stoke shaky defense. Instead we went at them at their strength: physical game with plenty scrappy, loose ball... We need the extra attackers in no 10 or second forward area or winger, but Mourinho decided to use Fellaini instead
Hull City 2:1 Man Utd
We should bring him on at half time to control the game.
Did he even get a touch on the ball in the 1st half?
The end is nigh, sadly
Honestly, I don't think he's been that good this season. Nothing like 2012-2013 when he was very influential.
I know of the stats when he's played, but he can't be your 1st choice holding midfielder.
I know of the stats when he's played, but he can't be your 1st choice holding midfielder.
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