Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

gajender

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Arsenal have a squad with young players in crucial roles. But they have a clear playing style and can't do much better that. They are where they should be in the table.
I think offensive minded managers get a lot of stick for some reason.
Maybe you could get better results in the short term playing defensive conter attack football, but that is food today and famine tomorrow.
That's a fair observation but how does it apply to Arteta maybe I can be convinced that Arteta is very good manager with potential to be great but nobody can convince me that Arteta is offensive minded manager based on his tenure so far that would require suspension of belief .
 

Tavern in the town

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Arsenal have a squad with young players in crucial roles. But they have a clear playing style and can't do much better that. They are where they should be in the table.
I think offensive minded managers get a lot of stick for some reason.
Maybe you could get better results in the short term playing defensive conter attack football, but that is food today and famine tomorrow.
What makes Arteta an “offensive minded” manager? They scored 61 league goals last season with a tonne of them from set pieces. They regularly look absolutely turgid.
 

Charrockero

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Being Pep's assistant.
Being Pep's assistant automatically makes you immune to criticism and to have media back you up saying you're building a project and that suddenly, EL is an excellent goal to pursue.

Emery got sacked for 7 winless matches.
 

WeePat

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Tbh so was i as I convinced myself we'll be as good as Porto was with his players in :lol:

I think the general point I was making is that there's been a culture/stigma in English football of supporting mediocrity to say "look I'm not a gloryhunter" which in turn allows owners like Kroenke and The Glazers to take the piss to the levels they do.
Yeah the 'get behind the manager at all costs' mantra was always a weird thing silly fans used to use to prove who is/isn't a proper fan. It was particular bad back then when even daring to point out something negative about a manager or the team was akin to blasphemy :lol:

It's not really like that these days I don't think. With Chelsea it seemed die a slow death under Mourinho 2.0. All of Conte, Sarri, Lampard and Tuchel have had pockets of online agenda merchants sewing negativity almost from the moment they walked through the doors.
 

ElvisMozart

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Well done, they have finished one position better than Manchester United who were a trainwreck, and finished behind Spurs and Chelsea who had terrible season.
Why would that have been a terrible season for them?
Chelsea had the best season since their title run in 16/17.
Spurs also had a better season than usual if you compare it to the last few years.
In the last 2 years Arsenal would have secured 4th place with that amount of points.

That was a quite ordinary season, if you look at the stats:

SeasonChelseaTottenhamArsenal
21/22747169
20/21676261
19/20665956
18/19727170
17/18707763
 

PepG

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Being Pep's assistant.
Arteta is not an offensive minded coach. He is a pragmatic one. Guardiola's football has been always a front foot football, taking the game to the opposition and so on.. Arteta while being in the known of the whole process and methodology day by day from Pep is tactically quite the opposite from him. He is way more reactive, counts way more on the opposition to make mistakes instead to force them through his own team. It is actually very interesting to see how the "juego de posicion" philosophy can be adapted to be a more defensive strategy since it has been always an attacking one. And at the same time at Arsenal there is a rebuilding process going on..That makes Arteta very unique case tbh
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Some of you are clearly confusing efficience with style.
I suppose we'd have to define 'efficient' but I wouldn't call Arsenal efficient. Their defense concedes quite a bit of goals (over a goal per game throughout his tenure, iirc) so between the low scoring and the high conceding, it leads to lots of defeats.
I won't get tired of repeating it, but they had a really unusual number of draws this season, just 3. A lot of their wins were by one goal. It wouldn't be too surprising that next season some of those narrow wins revert to draws just because of statistical variance, and then the progress looks considerably less good.
 

GoonerBear

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I suppose we'd have to define 'efficient' but I wouldn't call Arsenal efficient. Their defense concedes quite a bit of goals (over a goal per game throughout his tenure, iirc) so between the low scoring and the high conceding, it leads to lots of defeats.
I won't get tired of repeating it, but they had a really unusual number of draws this season, just 3. A lot of their wins were by one goal. It wouldn't be too surprising that next season some of those narrow wins revert to draws just because of statistical variance, and then the progress looks considerably less good.
Or, you could flip that & say by increasing the quality of forwards and strengthening the options in defence, a lot of the losses get turned to draws & narrow victories?
 

roonster09

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In the last 2 years Arsenal would have secured 4th place with that amount of points.
Shame Arsenal didn't secure as many points in last 2 seasons. Maybe they would have won the league too with those many points in last 50-60 years, won't change a thing. Points are useful only for that season.
 

roonster09

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Or, you could flip that & say by increasing the quality of forwards and strengthening the options in defence, a lot of the losses get turned to draws & narrow victories?
So what you are saying is, Arsenal should improve their first 11 to convert draws into wins? That's some formula no one thought of maybe ;)
 

GoonerBear

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So what you are saying is, Arsenal should improve their first 11 to convert draws into wins? That's some formula no one thought of maybe ;)
You've not read the post right. It was a direct response to Iker who said quite easily a lot of the narrow victories could turn to draws. While I pointed out, by the same token, a lot of the narrow defeats could turn to draws. He's right, 3 draws over a 38 game season is a very small number.
 

TheGame

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This would have been their best chance at UCL football with us being shite. Next year we will be better (hopefully:nervous:) and other sides will get better as well so it will be tougher for them.
 

roonster09

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You've not read the post right. It was a direct response to Iker who said quite easily a lot of the narrow victories could turn to draws. While I pointed out, by the same token, a lot of the narrow defeats could turn to draws. He's right, 3 draws over a 38 game season is a very small number.
I think there is a decent point there, narrow victories. Haven't checked all the games in detail but going by scores, Arsenal won 22 games and out of that 10 are with 1 goal margin. Maybe you can say they made better mental strength or concentration to hold on to that lead.

Loss by 1 goal margin
ManUtd 3-2 Arsenal
Everton 2-1 Arsenal
Arsenal 1-2 ManCity
Arsenal 1-3 Brighton
Southampton 1-0 Arsenal

Win by 1 goal Margin
Arsenal 1-0 Norwich
Burnley 0-1 Arsenal
Arsenal 1-0 Watford
Wolves 0-1 Arsenal
Arsenal 2-1 Brentford
Arsenal 2-1 Wolves
Watford 2-3 Arsenal
Villa 0-1 Arsenal
West Ham 1-2 Arsenal
Arsenal 2-1 Leeds
 

GoonerBear

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I think there is a decent point there, narrow victories. Haven't checked all the games in detail but going by scores, Arsenal won 22 games and out of that 10 are with 1 goal margin. Maybe you can say they made better mental strength or concentration to hold on to that lead.

Loss by 1 goal margin
ManUtd 3-2 Arsenal
Everton 2-1 Arsenal
Arsenal 1-2 ManCity
Arsenal 1-3 Brighton
Southampton 1-0 Arsenal

Win by 1 goal Margin
Arsenal 1-0 Norwich
Burnley 0-1 Arsenal
Arsenal 1-0 Watford
Wolves 0-1 Arsenal
Arsenal 2-1 Brentford
Arsenal 2-1 Wolves
Watford 2-3 Arsenal
Villa 0-1 Arsenal
West Ham 1-2 Arsenal
Arsenal 2-1 Leeds
We have a song that celebrates 1 goal victories. ;)

Be interesting to see how than compares to the likes of Spurs, Chelsea & Utd.
 

Jezpeza

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This would have been their best chance at UCL football with us being shite. Next year we will be better (hopefully:nervous:) and other sides will get better as well so it will be tougher for them.
I’ve said it before but they haven’t got an easy road. They’ve scraped a lot of results this season. They wont be able to in depth prepare for each league fixture. It will be very much a case of having to play Artetas ‘brand of football’ or ‘system’ week in week out whatever you want to call it.

Conte is getting £150m. We will be better. The likes of Leicester, West Ham can probably do better. Villa and Newcastle will be ambitious in the market and buy players that will give you a game at minimum. All these things eat into those tight margins.

Yes they can buy some players but arsenal will need to sign 2 strikers to stand still by the looks of it. The pressure will be on Arteta to improve on 5th because this has been labelled a rebuild and long term project. I can’t see him doing it. They still get out run, outfought by the likes of Newcastle which is typical Arsenal. I’m much more worried about Conte and Spurs than them tbh
 

Rnd898

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Be interesting to see how than compares to the likes of Spurs, Chelsea & Utd.
Chelsea had 7 wins by a margin of one goal, and 4 losses. Chelsea also had a whopping 11 draws, of which the team threw away the lead in 8 of them and one was a 0-0 where neither team had the lead. The amount of points Chelsea lost from winning positions this season was incredible.

Spurs won 10 games by a one goal margin and lost 5 games.

United won 8 games by a one goal margin and lost 4 games. Games drawn were roughly half comebacks and half leads they gave away.
 

GoonerBear

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I’ve said it before but they haven’t got an easy road. They’ve scraped a lot of results this season. They wont be able to in depth prepare for each league fixture. It will be very much a case of having to play Artetas ‘brand of football’ or ‘system’ week in week out whatever you want to call it.

Conte is getting £150m. We will be better. The likes of Leicester, West Ham can probably do better. Villa and Newcastle will be ambitious in the market and buy players that will give you a game at minimum. All these things eat into those tight margins.

Yes they can buy some players but arsenal will need to sign 2 strikers to stand still by the looks of it. The pressure will be on Arteta to improve on 5th because this has been labelled a rebuild and long term project. I can’t see him doing it. They still get out run, outfought by the likes of Newcastle which is typical Arsenal. I’m much more worried about Conte and Spurs than them tbh
Do all teams not scrape a lot of results? It looks like we have the 4th highest xG in the league, we are obviously looking for better forwards to finish off chances, and someone like Tielemans to come in and create even more.

I appreciate its going to be difficult, and you are right, we do get out fought sometimes, Everton, Newcastle games spring to mind so we need to combat that. And yeah, you are totally right to be more concerned about Spurs under Conte than us currently. But I wouldn't write us off totally just yet.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Or, you could flip that & say by increasing the quality of forwards and strengthening the options in defence, a lot of the losses get turned to draws & narrow victories?
There were twice as many 1-goal-wins than 1-goal-defeats, is the problem.
But yes, if you improve it won't be a problem. I think we both agree that you need to score more goals and concede less goals.
 

Mastadon

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Arsene Wenger would have locked down top 4 with games to spare this season and would still be criticized for it. This fraud is going to walk away thinking he’s done a great job after failing this season playing awful football throughout.
 

horsechoker

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Arsene Wenger would have locked down top 4 with games to spare this season and would still be criticized for it. This fraud is going to walk away thinking he’s done a great job after failing this season playing awful football throughout.
He's lowered standards, Wenger caused his own demise by raising them
 

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So whats the divide like amongst Arsenal fans? Was it as polarised as how Ole was with us before everything went to shit this season? Or do the majority still back him?

If I were an Arsenal fan I'd feel infuriated see the club persist with him while watching Spurs getting and backing Conte and United looking to rebuild under Ten Hag. It feels like Ole all over again.
 

awop

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So whats the divide like amongst Arsenal fans? Was it as polarised as how Ole was with us before everything went to shit this season? Or do the majority still back him?

If I were an Arsenal fan I'd feel infuriated see the club persist with him while watching Spurs getting and backing Conte and United looking to rebuild under Ten Hag. It feels like Ole all over again.
Pulling numbers out of my arse, i'd say it's a 70/30 in favour of him. This could easily get inverted or worse if next season (provided we have a good transfer window) we don't get top 4 and/or a real go at the EL. I don't think any Arsenal fan is infuriated looking at United. Spurs got top 4 and a good manager but i'm still fairly cautious when you know how volatile he can be.
Next year will be interesting and one big club will again have a very bad season. Could be Chelsea, could be United, could be Spurs, as long as it's not us, there will be a chance.
 

Powderfinger

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Pulling numbers out of my arse, i'd say it's a 70/30 in favour of him. This could easily get inverted or worse if next season (provided we have a good transfer window) we don't get top 4 and/or a real go at the EL. I don't think any Arsenal fan is infuriated looking at United. Spurs got top 4 and a good manager but i'm still fairly cautious when you know how volatile he can be.
Next year will be interesting and one big club will again have a very bad season. Could be Chelsea, could be United, could be Spurs, as long as it's not us, there will be a chance.
Tend to agree with this.

I think most Arsenal fans are realistic about the challenge and appreciate that the club is moving in the right direction.

People, especially supporters of rival clubs, want to manufacture drama and narrative but the reality is just a lot more mundane. We became a full on dumpster fire of a club between about 2016-2020 with terrible roster management and a poisonous club culture, we needed huge changes at every level from the boardroom to the bootroom that were never going to happen quickly especially during the pandemic, and now we're finally starting to emerge from that dark period as a more functional club. But we're not there yet.

Arteta will get backed this summer, we'll actually have a roster that makes sense for the first time in about five years rather than a Frankenstein's monster roster constructed by five different people full of players that don't fit together and can't play the same kind of football, and so he'll be reasonably expected to keep improving results and to fight hard with Chelsea, Spurs, and United for the 3rd/4th places and to have a serious go in the cups. And if he doesn't, he'll probably lose his job and we'll bring in somebody else to work with this talented young roster. And then that person will be expected to get results, etc.

Honestly, I am not particularly attached to Arteta or worried about his future. The important thing is just to continue to make good decisions in the transfer market and with other club business this summer. If that happens, then we'll be in reasonably good shape whether Arteta does enough next year to keep his job or not. This is also why the comparisons to OIe are completely off base. Ole obviously fostered a terrible internal culture full of entitled players and didn't recruit with any kind of footballing vision in mind, much less a modern tactical vision.The two overriding principles for Arteta/Edu in the last few years have been a focus on internal culture, getting rid of any entitled or disruptive players, and to buy, develop, and promote players who can play the a particular kind of technical, fast-paced, high line football. A group of players with those qualities will work under any other manager who has the same broad vision, like Potter or Seoane or whoever might succeed Arteta if he loses his job.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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It’s gas to hear gooners talk about 2016-20 as this unendurably awful time. Seasons where their average points and goal difference were almost always better than anything achieved under Arteta so far. They averaged more than 20 extra goals scored in each of those seasons than they did in 2021/22 (or any other season under Arteta) Dark days indeed! Who needs goals though? The real joy comes from witnessing the wonders of a cultural reset.
 
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Powderfinger

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It’s gas to hear gooners talk about 2016-20 as this unendurably awful time. Seasons where their average points and goal difference were almost always better than anything achieved under Arteta so far. They averaged more than 20 extra goals scored in each of those seasons than they did in 2021/22 (or any other season under Arteta) Dark days indeed! Who needs goals though? The real joy comes from witnessing the wonders of a cultural reset.
Its possible to get short-term results while also making decisions that create massive longer term problems in terms of roster construction and club culture.

I would think that United fans would grasp that concept given the last few years.
 

Nish115

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It’s gas to hear gooners talk about 2016-20 as this unendurably awful time. Seasons where their average points and goal difference were almost always better than anything achieved under Arteta so far. They averaged more than 20 extra goals scored in each of those seasons than they did in 2021/22 (or any other season under Arteta) Dark days indeed! Who needs goals though? The real joy comes from witnessing the wonders of a cultural reset.
It's almost as if things change.. including how much money the rest of the league has.
 

awop

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It’s gas to hear gooners talk about 2016-20 as this unendurably awful time. Seasons where their average points and goal difference were almost always better than anything achieved under Arteta so far. They averaged more than 20 extra goals scored in each of those seasons than they did in 2021/22 (or any other season under Arteta) Dark days indeed! Who needs goals though? The real joy comes from witnessing the wonders of a cultural reset.
There is joy in liking the group of players you watch every weekend yes. You don't get any points for having likeable players but it counts.
I don't think you realise how dumb your take is at a time where you'd struggle to name 5 likeables players in your whole club. Are you blind to the massive toxic cloud that is surrounding Manchester United ? And it has nothing to do with ABUs or rivalry, just genuine repulsion to what picture your club is projecting to everyone.
Don't you see the renewed enthusiasm that has arrived because you named a guy that is supposedly here to give a massive bollocking to anyone who crosses his path ?
 

awop

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Hehe. This thread is about Manchester United now. Interesting.
@Kaos asked a question and drew a comparison with Spurs and United. There seems to be a lot that is going over your head.
 

Amar__

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Why would that have been a terrible season for them?
Chelsea had the best season since their title run in 16/17.
Spurs also had a better season than usual if you compare it to the last few years.
In the last 2 years Arsenal would have secured 4th place with that amount of points.

That was a quite ordinary season, if you look at the stats:

SeasonChelseaTottenhamArsenal
21/22747169
20/21676261
19/20665956
18/19727170
17/18707763
Both teams had problems, I didn't mean their season in terms of position was bad:
- Chelsea had terrible season in terms of the Abramovic stuff, players not getting paid, etc.
- Spurs changed their manager after few months in charge in the middle of the season.
 
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