Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

Zehner

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Very interesting to look at him in the BL. That's similar to how KBD played last season (I was just posting in another thread about this) but with more defensive responsibility, or maybe just being in a less dominant possession team. Makes me think he might actually be better on Odegaard's side but then he's not as good as him and so Arteta is trying to make it work on the left. Think they'd be better splashing the big money on Wirtz for that role now I see that.
Havertz time with us overlapped primarily with Bosz' stint as our coach and in that time we averaged probably around 60% possession or so. Maybe not as dominant as City but he still thrived in a possession system. But yeah, I would also have seen him on the RCM role but Odegaard is ahead of him and rightly so. But considering that Arteta played a left footed LCM in Xhaka and replaced him with another left footed player, I assume that is by design. I guess ödegaard is expected to drift inside a lot and the other player shall play more direct. Havertz was very versatile in that sense for us. Comfortable in tight space thanks to his shielding and good combination play but also very direct through his athleticism and a goal threat because of his ability to ghost into the box and finish with the head and both feet. So Arteta probably plans to capitalize on the latter more so than the former.

Wirtz would be terrific for them, yes, but I doubt they'll pay upwards of 100m for a position they just signed Havertz for. Plus he could be too similar to Ödegaard as both demand lots of the ball and occupy similar spaces. On the other hand, who knows how things look in 2025 which is apparently Wirtz' targeted window for his next step.
 

the_cliff

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@Zehner and @the_cliff
Go up a couple of posts, this was pointed out by daydreamer correctly - mixing up players.
I did see that Partey's injury is apparently really bad though so don't expect him back any time soon.

Arsenal's midfield is interesting from a heatmap perspective as well.

Partey 22/23 versus Rice 23/24
https://www.sofascore.com/player/thomas-partey/316148
https://www.sofascore.com/player/declan-rice/856714
Xhaka versus Havertz
https://www.sofascore.com/player/granit-xhaka/117777
https://www.sofascore.com/player/kai-havertz/836705
Odegaard versus himself
https://www.sofascore.com/player/martin-odegaard/547410
https://www.sofascore.com/player/martin-odegaard/547410

The clear difference, for me, is how underrated Xhaka appears to have been on that left hand side - interestingly that heatmap is very similar to someone like Maddison's but with a little more defensive work.

Rice Partey are quite similar - Rice is covering more ground but both are very consistent with their coverage and take on a huge amount of work. Reminiscent of Casemiro last season for us but wider ranging.
I've seen a stat recently that Rice had the most progressive passes out of all midfielders in the league but I think that's quite a misleading stat. Rice drops very deep in this Arsenal team, sometimes in between the 2 centre backs which I don't remember Partey doing as much last season. I also think Partey is a much better passer in transition and helps in the speed of playing the ball forward catching the opposition unaware, when they aren't defensively set and in shape.

I do agree with you though in the sense that they are both similar in the defensive aspect and take on a huge amount of work.

I also agree with your point on Xhaka being a very underrated player for Arsenal last season, I thought he was one of their best players and was quite surprised that they let him go.
 

tomaldinho1

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I've seen a stat recently that Rice had the most progressive passes out of all midfielders in the league but I think that's quite a misleading stat. Rice drops very deep in this Arsenal team, sometimes in between the 2 centre backs which I don't remember Partey doing as much last season. I also think Partey is a much better passer in transition and helps in the speed of playing the ball forward catching the opposition unaware, when they aren't defensively set and in shape.

I do agree with you though in the sense that they are both similar in the defensive aspect and take on a huge amount of work.

I also agree with your point on Xhaka being a very underrated player for Arsenal last season, I thought he was one of their best players and was quite surprised that they let him go.
progressive passes is a really misleading stat - it basically means any longer pass that moves a certain distance towards the opponents goal (I think it's 10m but can't remember off top of head) - so players who sit deeper and play a lot of passes will rank high i.e. Rodri, Bruno, Rice, Newcastle's Bruno, Enzo + all the longer ball full backs like TAA and Trippier. It's only when you combine progressive passes with % completion you start to get a bit of an idea.

For example in the entire PL:
Progressive passes top 3. Rice, Bruno, Rodri.
Rodri is #8 for completion (pretty mental when you think about it), Rice is #20 and Bruno is...let's just not post this one (#234th)
 

TwoSheds

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progressive passes is a really misleading stat - it basically means any longer pass that moves a certain distance towards the opponents goal (I think it's 10m but can't remember off top of head) - so players who sit deeper and play a lot of passes will rank high i.e. Rodri, Bruno, Rice, Newcastle's Bruno, Enzo + all the longer ball full backs like TAA and Trippier. It's only when you combine progressive passes with % completion you start to get a bit of an idea.

For example in the entire PL:
Progressive passes top 3. Rice, Bruno, Rodri.
Rodri is #8 for completion (pretty mental when you think about it), Rice is #20 and Bruno is...let's just not post this one (#234th)
But Bruno doesn't sit deeper, he's our no 10.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Hence the issue with his passing/wastefulness
It’s not an issue when it’s comparable with other players in the same position (which it is) Comparing his pass completion with Rodri/Rice etc makes no sense at all. Players in their position should be 90%+. For attacking midfielders a much lower pass completion is absolutely fine (Bruno is on 78%, Maddison on 80%, De Bruyne 81% according to Infogoal).

The most interesting thing about the data you mention is how a player who plays in an advanced position like Bruno is able to make so many progressive passes, with much less distance of pitch to pass into.
 
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tomaldinho1

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It’s not an issue when it’s comparable with other players in the same position (which it is) Comparing his pass completion with Rodri/Rice etc makes no sense at all. Players in their position should be 90%+. For attacking midfielders a much lower pass completion is absolutely fine (Bruno is on 78%, Maddison on 80%).

The only interesting thing about the data you mention is how a player who plays in an advanced position like Bruno is able to make so many progressive passes, with much less distance of pitch to pass into.
More an issue with how we play then, in which Bruno is the main man
 

Pogue Mahone

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More an issue with how we play then, in which Bruno is the main man
Yes. That’s an issue. He consistently has the most touches/passes out of all of our midfielders. That definitely shouldn’t be happening. Although that says much more about the (lack of) quality in central midfields than anything to do with Bruno. Hard not to wonder how much we would improve with Rice at the base of our midfield?

Watching us vs all other big teams the one thing most obviously missing is the consistent passing triangles between defenders and deep lying midfielders. That would represent the most frequent pass for most other successful teams. Yet it’s almost a rarity for us.
 

tomaldinho1

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Yes. That’s an issue. He consistently has the most touches/passes out of all of our midfielders. That definitely shouldn’t be happening. Although that says much more about the (lack of) quality in central midfield than anything to do with Bruno.
It will be interesting, assuming Mainoo keeps getting game time, to see how his stats evolve in this area. His game seems much more about sensible, shorter passes and popping off one twos. Could be like when Joe Allen played for Swansea and was outperforming Xavi in a lot of metrics for a run of games given how they played :lol:

I still think Bruno needs to drop deeper, reign in his passing/give him more touches in deeper areas where he can affect things in a more measured way (he is very good at little passes round the corner, has a good touch, can keep the ball without being a good dribbler and can play longer balls, he just needs to be a bit less hasty in my eyes) and I think he could work well with Mainoo. Then Casemiro is DM for this season and we target a new DM in summer who is much more dynamic.
 

Pogue Mahone

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It will be interesting, assuming Mainoo keeps getting game time, to see how his stats evolve in this area. His game seems much more about sensible, shorter passes and popping off one twos. Could be like when Joe Allen played for Swansea and was outperforming Xavi in a lot of metrics for a run of games given how they played :lol:

I still think Bruno needs to drop deeper, reign in his passing/give him more touches in deeper areas where he can affect things in a more measured way (he is very good at little passes round the corner, has a good touch, can keep the ball without being a good dribbler and can play longer balls, he just needs to be a bit less hasty in my eyes) and I think he could work well with Mainoo. Then Casemiro is DM for this season and we target a new DM in summer who is much more dynamic.
Yeah, I was a bit suprised to see Mainoo's touches/passes being relatively low in recent weeks (lower than McTominay in one game!) as he does seem like a player who can rack up loads of simple passes and give us a bit of much needed control. His composure and choice of pass is excellent, so it's surprising he isn't more involved. Yong and lernin though.
 

Zoo

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Nearly man. Gets away with it cos he’s Pep’s mate
 

Samid

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I fear they'll totally implode and get a decent manager in the summer. Hope he does just enough to keep fooling that fanbase.
 

Shinjch

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Really can't understand the thinking behind leaving Havertz on for so long, especially when you need a goal.
 

AshRK

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Klopp showing why he is a top manager and why arteta is a naive one who has lot to learn and is very fortunate he is not managing at a top ambitious club.
 

tinfish

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He could have completed the core of the team this year based on the development plan. But a poor transfer window has stifled the progression of this team.

he is also too reactive rather than proactive. Use your head ffs.

biggest problem though is his lack of youth development. Arsenal academy might as well shut down.
 

RuudTom83

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No Identity or DNA tonight...just can't see what he is trying to do...5 seasons into the project and nothing to show for it.

Just relying on a moment of magic from Saka or Odegaard...guy is a fraud!

Am I doing it right?...ow shit its Arsenal not United! my bad! delete please.
 

Sandikan

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Woeful 3 game run. Until then they were going decently, albeit not flowing as well attacking wise as last year.

But they've got a huge, huge chance of being potless now.
 

Sandikan

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First time this season?

They don't have finishers in their team and Saka has gone backwards. Longer it stayed 0-0, you would have fancied Liverpool's chances.
Saka just kept whacking shots miles over the bar. Infuriating.
 

Nicolarra90

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He's a decent manager, just like ten hag, postecoglou, de zerbi, etc...

But no one will win anything of note bar some here and there cups until Pep and Klopp leave or until football gets past them, which might not happen in the next 3-5 years or more.

People just have to understand the importance of the managerial position and that we are very unlucky that the two best managers of this generation decided to stay in England for a long period of time and decided to win almost everything available.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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I'll will keep saying it. Underrating what Xhaka offered this team will continue to cost Arsenal dear
He didn’t though. Convinced him to stay and made him captain when he came in, and at the time Arse fans were baying for Xhaka’s blood.

Think they just stuck by their recruitment policy and didn’t want to offer him a big/long contract at that age.
 

Rooney in Paris

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He's a decent manager, just like ten hag, postecoglou, de zerbi, etc...

But no one will win anything of note bar some here and there cups until Pep and Klopp leave or until football gets past them, which might not happen in the next 3-5 years or more.

People just have to understand the importance of the managerial position and that we are very unlucky that the two best managers of this generation decided to stay in England for a long period of time and decided to win almost everything available.
Pep is winning everything. Klopp has 1 league and 1 CL, in many years at Liverpool. Not like he's cleaning shop.
 

Fts 74

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He's a decent manager, just like ten hag, postecoglou, de zerbi, etc...

But no one will win anything of note bar some here and there cups until Pep and Klopp leave or until football gets past them, which might not happen in the next 3-5 years or more.

People just have to understand the importance of the managerial position and that we are very unlucky that the two best managers of this generation decided to stay in England for a long period of time and decided to win almost everything available.
I'd be tempted to agree except klopp has won the PL, FA cup and League Cup once in 8 years.
 

Fridge chutney

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He could have completed the core of the team this year based on the development plan. But a poor transfer window has stifled the progression of this team.

he is also too reactive rather than proactive. Use your head ffs.

biggest problem though is his lack of youth development. Arsenal academy might as well shut down.
Really? Aren't Saka and Martinelli from the academy? I would have thought the Arsenal academy is one of the best in the world.
 

Cloud7

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Always a good day when arsenal loses


No Identity or DNA tonight...just can't see what he is trying to do...5 seasons into the project and nothing to show for it.

Just relying on a moment of magic from Saka or Odegaard...guy is a fraud!

Am I doing it right?...ow shit its Arsenal not United! my bad! delete please.
To be fair he may very well be a fraud as well :lol:
Full haired fraud
 

Hoof the ball

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He could have completed the core of the team this year based on the development plan. But a poor transfer window has stifled the progression of this team.

he is also too reactive rather than proactive. Use your head ffs.

biggest problem though is his lack of youth development. Arsenal academy might as well shut down.
What happened to Marquinhos? Also, what happened to Patino? I thought he was prodigiously talented?