Mike's Sheep Draft - Final: Enigma vs Jim Beam

[Jim Beam]

I see rapid counters over Dinho & Garrincha as a main threat. How do you see offensive/defensive balance on Facchetti's side? Looks like he's the width provider in offense and sole cover against Garrincha?

He made his career living on that side on his own. The reasoning that he would be somehow "worse" with Cruyff ahead is fine with me.

Actually, when Franz pushes forward he'll go too. Especially if there is a winger who won't track him forward. In a 90 minutes game I would risk it.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

For me this game is a draw. Enigma's attack is too good and Jim's defense falls pale even with Kaiser there.

And Jim's midfield is too good and Enigma's falls pale even with Bastian there.

Went with Jim because there is one particular voter who has no integrity and will vote for Enigma no matter what. So this sort of nullifies the 0-1 start for Jim. Game on. Good luck both.

 

[2mufc0]

It had 35%possession. Messi living on the scraps.

Can we pause somehow and look at that shit behind him?

Yes but he was the best player in that final, tbh Messi didn't really turn up in the knockouts, shit team or not he simply didn't do enough.

 

[Jim Beam]

Yes but he was the best player in that final, tbh Messi didn't really turn up in the knockouts, shit team or not he simply didn't do enough.

Because everything is about the system now. There is no way Messi could carry Argentina in the same way Maradona did.

That is a team full of sheeps behind him. Honestly, it should be examined how shit they were and somehow play in the final.

 

[2mufc0]

Because everything is about the system now. There is no way Messi could carry Argentina in the same way Maradona did.

That is a team full of sheeps behind him. Honestly, it should be examined how shit they were and somehow play in the final.

Individually they weren't great but were solid with a good mentality, I think Maradona would have done better, he was a different animal.

But that's besides the point, I thought Bastian probably had the game of his career and deserves credit for it.

 

[Jim Beam]

Individually they weren't great but were solid with a good mentality, I think Maradona would have done better, he was a different animal.

But that's besides the point, I thought Bastian probably had the game of his career and deserves credit for it.

Can you point at a simillar game in Bastian career?

 

[Jim Beam]

As I can in Robson

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

But that's besides the point, I thought Bastian probably had the game of his career and deserves credit for it.

Yea, when you rewatch the game and concentrate only on Bastian and Messi, he indeed was phenomenal that night.

Di Maria was sorely missed for me in the final. He offered something different which no one else in that team did. I think Argentina would have won if he was playing. What a big finals player too.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

when you keep playing the biggest bottler in football history you deserve feck all so thank feck argies didnt win! Plus keeps the Messi national BS alive which is always amusing to read/hear.

 

[Jim Beam]

when you keep playing the biggest bottler in football history you deserve feck all so thank feck argies didnt win! Plus keeps the Messi national BS alive which is always amusing to read/hear.

 

[Jim Beam]

when you keep playing the biggest bottler in football history you deserve feck all so thank feck argies didnt win! Plus keeps the Messi national BS alive which is always amusing to read/hear.

You absolutely don't make any sense? Busquets?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You absolutely don't make any sense? Busquets?

messi

 

[Jim Beam]

messi

He's an absolute peach my darling.

 

[Jim Beam]

Good night.

Spoiler

 

[Synco]

He made his career living on that side on his own. The reasoning that he would be somehow "worse" with Cruyff ahead is fine with me.

Actually, when Franz pushes forward he'll go too. Especially if there is a winger who won't track him forward. In a 90 minutes game I would risk it.

Don't really get the bolded part, but I guess you refer to someone else there.

And yeah, I too see trying to pressurize & dominate Enigma's team as much as possible as your best chance to win.

 

[Enigma_87]

Don't really get the bolded part, but I guess you refer to someone else there.

And yeah, I too see trying to pressurize & dominate Enigma's team as much as possible as your best chance to win.

All of my players are very comfortable in possession though.
Also individual battles should count for something and usually decide games. Ronaldinho/ Tassotti is big one in my favour and Facchetti can’t be at two places at the same time. As mentioned his contribution in the attacking phase in the 1970 WC final for example was severely limited due to the great attack Brazil had at the time and here he’s facing an even bigger threat.
Garrincha can be devastating on his own even man marked let alone with so much free space and grass to eat when Facchetri is caught up field.

As mentioned our full backs won’t bomb forward which won’t make them susceptible or vulnerable to counters as Jim would like and our attack has a Lot more joy coming our way especially with Batogol physicality as you mentioned.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yea, when you rewatch the game and concentrate only on Bastian and Messi, he indeed was phenomenal that night.

Di Maria was sorely missed for me in the final. He offered something different which no one else in that team did. I think Argentina would have won if he was playing. What a big finals player too.

I’m not sure which member you have in mind but questioning someone’s integrity whilst voting out of spite, despite seeing this game as a draw is kinda funny. Voters should put aside personal agendas and just vote for the best team that is likely to win, but I guess that’s just me.
Either way I was sure that I’ll be 1-0 down before the game with your vote and you love to be polemic and attention so it’s all good I guess

 

[Himannv]

No, seriously how the rest feel about Cruyff here? All input is welcome.

No issues with him on the left. He's great when cutting in and beating a man from that angle so I have no doubt he can play in that position.

Not really sure how it would work exactly with Puskas dropping into the hole as well but I'm guessing you're not playing Total Football here so Puskas probably just moves into the box in a scenario where Cruyff moves centrally.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I’m not sure which member you have in mind

@Jim Beam

 

[Jim Beam]

No issues with him on the left. He's great when cutting in and beating a man from that angle so I have no doubt he can play in that position.

Not really sure how it would work exactly with Puskas dropping into the hole as well but I'm guessing you're not playing Total Football here so Puskas probably just moves into the box in a scenario where Cruyff moves centrally.

Cheers.

@GodShaveTheQueen yeah it is funny, but let's not spoil this one. However you look at it it's clean as baby ass for now. I wanted an explanation on that vote, not given and tbh zero feck given too from my side. Tbf, you don't need an explanation going for enigma here when you look at that team.

Let's move on from that shit and keep it civil.

 

[Jim Beam]

Am awake, am ready and will go full "Mauro Tassotti" in a few minutes..

 

[Jim Beam]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2006/nov/17/sport.comment2

Well worth a read and I will make my podcast about it.

 

[Synco]

Facchetti can’t be at two places at the same time. As mentioned his contribution in the attacking phase in the 1970 WC final for example was severely limited due to the great attack Brazil had at the time and here he’s facing an even bigger threat. Garrincha can be devastating on his own even man marked let alone with so much free space and grass to eat when Facchetri is caught up field.

Difference for me is that Brazil dominated Italy, while here I see a clear advantage in the middle for Beam. That changes dynamics and makes a 1:1 equation difficult. But of course Garrincha can be devastating on the break, especially if he catches out Facchetti.

All of my players are very comfortable in possession though.
Also individual battles should count for something and usually decide games. Ronaldinho/ Tassotti is big one in my favour (...)

As mentioned our full backs won’t bomb forward which won’t make them susceptible or vulnerable to counters as Jim would like and our attack has a Lot more joy coming our way especially with Batogol physicality as you mentioned.

I merely said his best chance is trying to dominate, not that there's any guarantee against your team. And yeah, your front four is your biggest advantage over any part of his team.

I'd imagine the in-game dynamics like this: He needs to use his advantage and keep the ball away from your front four through constant pressure, you need to survive that assault (great back 4 + GK surely helps) to exercise your quick transitions and attack his inferior backline. Cracking matchup, atm I can see it go either way.

 

[harms]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2006/nov/17/sport.comment2

Well worth a read and I will make my podcast about it.

About Puskas? Or the greatest European footballers of all-time?

It's impossible to separate him, Cruyff, Beckenbauer & Cristiano for me.

 

[Jim Beam]

@Synco with a balanced view as always...

But, in reality we all know what would happen.


In all honesty I can see Essien or Mauro with a cracker here

 

[harms]

I went back to change my vote at least thrice, as I honestly like JB's team better. But then I see Pelé & Garrincha and Figueroa & Nesta at the back. Maybe I'll still change it at the end

There's this weird feeling that I have about Batigol not being an ideal fit for the Brazilian trio, but I'm not sure if it has anything real behind it.

 

[Jim Beam]

About Puskas? Or the greatest European footballers of all-time?

It's impossible to separate him, Cruyff, Beckenbauer & Cristiano for me.

Oh, I can. Beckenbauer easily.

As easy as claiming Pele the greatest ever. More on my podcast with bepo.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Difference for me is that Brazil dominated Italy

I think the 2 vs 1 played its part as well.

Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto ganged up on Facchetti leaving him no option but to stay back.

 

[Enigma_87]

Difference for me is that Brazil dominated Italy, while here I see a clear advantage in the middle for Beam. That changes dynamics and makes a 1:1 equation difficult. But of course Garrincha can be devastating on the break, especially if he catches out Facchetti.

I merely said his best chance is trying to dominate, not that there's any guarantee against your team. And yeah, your front four is your biggest advantage over any part of his team.

I'd imagine the in-game dynamics like this: He needs to use his advantage and keep the ball away from your front four through constant pressure, you need to survive that assault (great back 4 + GK surely helps) to exercise your quick transitions and attack his inferior backline. Cracking matchup, atm I can see it go either way.

Aye I can understand where you are coming from mate.

My point was that we aren't as susceptible on the break with two excellent defensively full backs who won't need to push up high to provide width in attack on constant basis and most likely they won't be on the backfoot chasing the attacker.

Jim's attack and width is imperative on Facchetti providing that width. Cruyff is naturally a factor in midfield but he's not the type that would constantly chase Garrincha out wide to cover for Facchetti.

All in all, we do have the individual advantage and I'd say our defence is as good as it can get to provide the cover needed against Beam's attack.

On top of that, as you mentioned and definitely need some thought about it Batigol is a striker that would pose all sorts of problems to that backline. With Rijkaard / Neeskens occupied in the middle of the park our flanks will have a very good game here which should be enough to edge it IMO.

 

[Enigma_87]

I went back to change my vote at least thrice, as I honestly like JB's team better. But then I see Pelé & Garrincha and Figueroa & Nesta at the back. Maybe I'll still change it at the end

There's this weird feeling that I have about Batigol not being an ideal fit for the Brazilian trio, but I'm not sure if it has anything real behind it.

Pele loved to play behind a CF and Batigol is the type that would create space for him.

Batistuta never got the chance to play with the elite players he's fielded here with, but one testimonial maybe catches a glimpse of it and playing alongside another Brazilian maestro:

He had it all and worked in tandem or as a lone striker to a devastating effect.

Also, Pele, Garrincha never lost a game together and alongside Djalma too we have a proven trio that ruled the late 50's, early 60's.

On top of that as you mentioned you can't possibly get a better pair with Figueroa and Nesta to counter Beam's attack.

Our defence and attack is definitely better and with designated roles which has no overlaps. Beam's has the better midfield but Essien and Schweiny at their peak will not back down and can bring their A game against pretty much everyone.

 

[Jim Beam]

My point was that we aren't as susceptible on the break with two excellent defensively full backs who won't need to push up high to provide width in attack on constant basis and most likely they won't be on the backfoot chasing the attacker.

My point is that you FB will give feck all going forward. Put that along with your wingers not tracking and helping midfield it changes everything.

Sure, soak up that pressure with Franz, Neeskens, Rijkaard, Jinky and Cruyff in the middle, but then you're living on individual greatness to get you over the line. And am not sure it would be enough looking at that midfield. Bastian for sure ain't pulling any GOAT defensive performance, that is certain. He will be the happiest person once that final whistle blows.

 

[Himannv]

There's this weird feeling that I have about Batigol not being an ideal fit for the Brazilian trio, but I'm not sure if it has anything real behind it.

I think he doesn't get as many crosses as he would like from either Garrincha or Ronaldinho, but he's really quite multi-faceted as a striker and is just as likely to score when getting on the end of passes as opposed to heading them in. Romario would have been perfect here I think, but Batistuta works as well. That front 4 looks deadly IMO and the only question is if they will get enough opportunities to decide this.

 

[Synco]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2006/nov/17/sport.comment2

Well worth a read and I will make my podcast about it.

Great, will be delighted if you do so. Particularly interested in an assessment of his capabilities to run the offense. (Especially as he used to play in collectively creative setups, so what was his role?) Just recently said in the Messi thread that he's often oddly overlooked in "greatest players of all time" discussions, and when it comes to the very few players who combined unreal scoring with creative genius.

 

[Enigma_87]

My point is that you FB will give feck all going forward. Put that along with your wingers not tracking and helping midfield it changes everything.

Sure, soak up that pressure with Franz, Neeskens, Rijkaard, Jinky and Cruyff in the middle, but then you're living on individual greatness to get you over the line. And am not sure it would be enough looking at that midfield. Bastian for sure ain't pulling any GOAT defensive performance, that is certain. He will be the happiest person once that final whistle blows.

Shoveling players in the middle where everybody is, is unlikely to create many chances for you. Our midfield can be packed together and negate you the space. We have two midfielders that can be packed and negate you the space.

The strength of your side is not possession based at all. Tassotti and Costacurta can make a mistake when put pressure on and Batigol has already proven so.

Our CB duo is fantastic at reading the game and sniffing out danger. Both are great players and also comfortable in possession. Essien is also comfortable in possession, whilst naturally Bastian is, let alone that front 4.

At the end of the day we have the more creativity coming from the attacking players and the better defence to keep the ball out of the net, arguably the better keeper too.

In tight games more often than not individual brilliance wins it and also we have a lot of routes for goal, not dependent only on Garrincha, Ronaldinho, Pele or Batistuta.

There is just too much ideal scenarios for your defence to keep our attackers at bay.

Putting pressure against our midfield is not something new to them. Essien at his peak was pilling 90+% passing stats that weren't some fantastic through balls but that wasn't and isn't his role at all - he's a specialist at keeping it tidy and not wasting possession.

Besides, even if we look past that fantastic 4, Essien and Schweiny themselves decided a crucial games with their long range shooting.


who can forget this one

Whilst our upgrade was one of the fines pure defenders in the game:

 

[Jim Beam]

At the end of the day we have the more creativity coming from the attacking players and the better defence to keep the ball out of the net, arguably the better keeper too

Build your team as much as you can, but stop that shit now. Beara is head and shoulders above your keeper.

The greatest ever in this part of the world for a reason.

 

[Enigma_87]

I think he doesn't get as many crosses as he would like from either Garrincha or Ronaldinho, but he's really quite multi-faceted as a striker and is just as likely to score when getting on the end of passes as opposed to heading them in. Romario would have been perfect here I think, but Batistuta works as well. That front 4 looks deadly IMO and the only question is if they will get enough opportunities to decide this.

In terms of creative outlets we have many alleys to goal. Ronaldinho and Pele can pull the strings in advanced positions, Figueroa and Schweini start the attacks and I think Ronaldinho getting the most of Tassotti is non brainer whilst on the other side considering the dual role of Facchetti Garrincha will get plenty of joy too.

Concentrating in the middle of the park, which seems to be the plan of the opposition will give us plenty of chances out wide where is IMO the least resistance.

Jimbo will face much more resistance trying to break through the middle whilst we also have the better individuals to counter him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Build your team as much as you can, but stop that shit now. Beara is head and shoulders above your keeper.

The greatest ever in this part of the world for a reason.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/redcafes-all-time-top-20-goalkeepers-results.448683/

well obviously I rate him better long before this game and you seem to rate Beara more going off the same list with generally the same gap between them, so we can safely agree to disagree there.

 

[Jim Beam]

So, you will be pushed back and be fine with it.

While we're having a greater individual ability and plenty of joy. *meme*

 

[Enigma_87]

So, you will be pushed back and be fine with it.

While we're having a greater individual ability and plenty of joy. *meme*

Nope. Are you trying to implement a high press? Because that would be a suicide with Tassotti, Costacurta and Facchetti as lone source of width on the left.

I expect your team to surrender possession actually - something along the lines of 55/60 - 45-40 and press our midfield in your own half.

 

[Jim Beam]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/redcafes-all-time-top-20-goalkeepers-results.448683/

well obviously I rate him better long before this game and you seem to rate Beara more going off the same list with generally the same gap between them, so we can safely agree to disagree there.

Beara is a giant of the game. Matrix stuff (peak De Gea would be quite appropriate)