Miscellaneous Reserve/Youth News

[AltiUn]

So after averaging a goal a game aged 16 in the u18s and then more than a goal every other game in 23s when he had just turned 17 his stats werent impressive. Remember there was some hype around him at the time and rightly so.

Your exact words were: "Unless your ripping it up consistently in 23s football hard to argue you should be playing in our first team". They objectively were not tearing it up, so we shouldn't have promoted Rashford or Greenwood by your logic. It's your argument, I'm just using real examples to counter it.

Both look tactically clueless in a team that doesn’t hit and run on the counter. Without playing run and shoot for 90 minutes they don’t appear to know what to do.
A good u23 coach to lay down some discipline (tactical and otherwise) would have reduced the hype and get their overall game where it should be to play for man united.

Our problem wasn't that they barely played U23 football, our problem was that they had a coach who was appalling at developing players and appalling at setting teams up, that wasn't a problem exclusive to Rashford and Greenwood, it was apparent throughout the whole team. They weren't shoe-horned into a counter attacking, hit and run style until first team level. More to the point, Rashford excelled in his appearances for the disciplined and possession-based van Gaal team as an 18 year old. His development began to regress in the years following under Mourinho and Solskjaer.

 

[AltiUn]

They basically skipped it.

Yes they did, and it was the right decision to do so as they both did very well coming into the first team. Their development began to stall only once they hit the first team, which is something that has happened with an untold amount of players over the last decade.

 

[Prodigal7]

Yes they did, and it was the right decision to do so as they both did very well coming into the first team. Their development began to stall only once they hit the first team, which is something that has happened with an untold amount of players over the last decade.

You don’t think the “stalling” as you put it is down to them not being ready?

Did you watch rashford play in the youth teams? He practically had a floating 10 role to do whatever he wanted and there was 0 tactical discipline. Similar happened with Greenwood. Under LVG Rashford scored goals but he didn’t grasp his role tactically.

 

[AltiUn]

You don’t think the “stalling” as you put it is down to them not being ready?

Did you watch rashford play in the youth teams? He practically had a floating 10 role to do whatever he wanted and there was 0 tactical discipline. Under LVG he scored goals but he didn’t grasp his role tactically.

Well no, I don't. All our other first teamers had plenty of game time for their respective U23 teams and they've all stalled too, it's an issue at first team level hence why it's so widespread.

 

[Prodigal7]

Well no, I don't. All our other first teamers had plenty of game time for their respective U23 teams and they've all stalled too, it's an issue at first team level hence why it's so widespread.

I would say it’s because they are not being educated well enough before coming into the first team. But each to their own. Or in Mctominay and Lingard case, they’re just not good enough.

 

[AltiUn]

I would say it’s because they are not being educated well enough before coming into the first team. But each to their own. Or in Mctominay and Lingard case, they’re just not good enough.

At least that we can agree on.

 

[lenny_1248]

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[brother ant]

Is this on MUTV please?

 

[Mickson]

None of those took their chance at 17.

No, but I'm just making a point. Hannibal is nearly 20 and was bought for big money, yet barely gets any minutes and he is tearing it up in the U23. Fernandez isn't that young either. I think Ole was very careful and I think Rangnick is even worse. Hopefully, ETH will be better in that department.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

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We lost 1-3 after apparently dominating most of the second half.

 

[lysglimt]

No, but I'm just making a point. Hannibal is nearly 20 and was bought for big money, yet barely gets any minutes and he is tearing it up in the U23. Fernandez isn't that young either. I think Ole was very careful and I think Rangnick is even worse. Hopefully, ETH will be better in that department.

Hannibal isn't tearing it up in the U23 - that is part of the problem. At times he is - at times he spends too much time focusing on the referees and the opponents - and at times he is quite anonymous. I agree the talent is there - but the only player who has been tearing it up at the U23 in the last 18 months is already playing for the first team.

 

[Beaucoup]

We lost 1-3 after apparently dominating most of the second half.

huge gulf in coaching evident between the two teams, City don't have better players, just play better football.

 

[stealthy]

huge gulf in coaching evident between the two teams, City don't have better players, just play better football.

Not a bad assessment although I think it runs deeper to overall philosophy and style. United coaches instructions were all a bit old school Pumping up the lads, City coaches were all possession and patience. The United lads had good crack at pressing aggressively after half time with some success, but as soon as they inevitably tired a little City beat the press impressively and had a chances for a few more than the three. Noisy neighbours are getting very loud and United need to take note. City keeper looked fantastic in possession and probably completed more passes than any United outfield. And his dad a United keeper, says a lot.
On a positive next stop FA youth cup final

 

[MUW4Eva]

Hannibal isn't tearing it up in the U23 - that is part of the problem. At times he is - at times he spends too much time focusing on the referees and the opponents - and at times he is quite anonymous. I agree the talent is there - but the only player who has been tearing it up at the U23 in the last 18 months is already playing for the first team.

To be fair, Hannibal is targeted quote heavily by opposing players, they always seem to foul him consistently in the games that I have seen play in, when one player gets a yellow card, they switch and others take their turn to foul him, so it is no wonder that he isn't exactly doing as well as he could be.
This is rightly part of the process of growing up in the men's game, but still it is part of the reason why he doesn't have the figures that he should.

Plus he needs to learn to control his temperament as that has cost him on a few occasions.

 

[Sea-Cow]

Not a bad assessment although I think it runs deeper to overall philosophy and style. United coaches instructions were all a bit old school Pumping up the lads, City coaches were all possession and patience. The United lads had good crack at pressing aggressively after half time with some success, but as soon as they inevitably tired a little City beat the press impressively and had a chances for a few more than the three. Noisy neighbours are getting very loud and United need to take note. City keeper looked fantastic in possession and probably completed more passes than any United outfield. And his dad a United keeper, says a lot.
On a positive next stop FA youth cup final

Can you explain this part for the uninformed? Thanks

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Can you explain this part for the uninformed? Thanks

True Grant.

 

[AltiUn]

Can you explain this part for the uninformed? Thanks

Probably on about Lee Grant's son.

 

[cj_sparky]

Can you explain this part for the uninformed? Thanks

Lee Grant's son

 

[Prodigal7]

Clearly if our technical director, along with a raft of current players decide to send their sons to city’s academy rather than our own it’s not a good sign.

But there’s no reason this can’t change and we shouldn’t be ashamed to say we need to set ourselves up more like city do in terms of both coaching and recruitment. City and Chelsea academies are good examples of well run top academies that we can emulate in certain areas whilst maintaining a lot of our traditions and heritage.

 

[GledTheRed]

True Grant.

Josh Brolin was great in that.

 

[Sea-Cow]

Thanks for the responses. I am out of the loop on that one.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Now that Ten Hag is appointed, I wonder if there will be any changes to the way the academy team plays ?

I mean when your first team does not have any consistent style in years, I can understand a bit why the academy has not been able to have a focus on any particular style.

 

[stealthy]

Now that Ten Hag is appointed, I wonder if there will be any changes to the way the academy team plays ?

I mean when your first team does not have any consistent style in years, I can understand a bit why the academy has not been able to have a focus on any particular style.

i think it comes back to the director of football issue again as managers come and go but identity must remain.I think United need a similar appointment to Txiki at City. Style of play was in place long before Pep, eg Foden and Palmer starting to come through are very Barca esque in style but we’re there long before Pep. Maybe Ralf will start to correct it now he’s free from management chains.
Not forgetting here United still attract top talent

 

[Bigsid]

huge gulf in coaching evident between the two teams, City don't have better players, just play better football.

Would agree with that to an extent but still think technically City are better man for man. Particularly in defence. Year to year they are pulling away. We work hard and are physical but lack creativity and guile at key times. Looked like we ran out of ideas by the end.

Now that Ten Hag is appointed, I wonder if there will be any changes to the way the academy team plays ?

I mean when your first team does not have any consistent style in years, I can understand a bit why the academy has not been able to have a focus on any particular style.

Difference is the philosphy at City comes from La Masia with Rodolfo Borrel bringing his own coaches with him and interestingly its those coaches that now lead. Comparatively our clubs leadership comes from Sheffield United

 

[In Rainbows]

Neither Rashford or Greenwood were tearing it up for the U23s before they got promoted.

I disagree on Greenwood. Maybe your definition is different than mine, but Greenwood had 3 goals and 2 assists in only 6 matches played. That's almost a goal contribution per match. You compare that to all other young players making the step up, and his was really good in that context. It's also good to look at the uefa youth league, which tends to dull players' output compared to their league form for the u18s. Greenwood was much better than all other strikers we've had, or have came from the other english sides.

You bring up Delap, but he did all his good stuff at u23 level at age 18+. Greenwood did his appearances for the u23 at age 17.

Hannibal isn't tearing it up in the U23 - that is part of the problem. At times he is - at times he spends too much time focusing on the referees and the opponents - and at times he is quite anonymous. I agree the talent is there - but the only player who has been tearing it up at the U23 in the last 18 months is already playing for the first team.

I disagree with this too. Hannibal has done really well for the u23s. Very classy on the ball, and despite playing in at winger, as a 10, or as an 8. And Hannibal did better than Elanga at the same age for the u23s. It actually took Elanga some adjustment, must like Pereira needed time to adjust to the level. I felt that Hannibal did well from the get go at u23 level, much like how Greenwood and Januzaj did when first making the step up. Of course, there is a slight dulling of their performances when going up a level, but that's expected as it is a step up from the u18s.

I feel like the only thing Hannibal needed to improve on at u23 level at the start was to stop losing his cool, and improve consistency. But I've never felt that he didn't play well like I feel about Garnacho, Elanga, and Pereira.

 

[Beaucoup]

Would agree with that to an extent but still think technically City are better man for man. Particularly in defence. Year to year they are pulling away. We work hard and are physical but lack creativity and guile at key times. Looked like we ran out of ideas by the end.


Difference is the philosphy at City comes from La Masia with Rodolfo Borrel bringing his own coaches with him and interestingly its those coaches that now lead. Comparatively our clubs leadership comes from Sheffield United

I disagree about the technical ability, I think you could put 4 or 5 of our lads in that City team and they would really stand out playing to that system. They have been well drilled from a young age, it would be interesting to see how well they do playing in a different team when they inevitably leave City.

I completely agree on the standard of coaching at the two clubs, poles apart.

 

[Bigsid]

I disagree about the technical ability, I think you could put 4 or 5 of our lads in that City team and they would really stand out playing to that system. They have been well drilled from a young age, it would be interesting to see how well they do playing in a different team when they inevitably leave City.

I completely agree on the standard of coaching at the two clubs, poles apart.

That may be the problem. To play in that first team is nigh on impossible given level. How many will adjust to playing outside of top leagues which is inevitably where they will end up at best. Like someone pointed out above when the technical Director has his kids there it speaks volumes!

 

[Adnan]

i think it comes back to the director of football issue again as managers come and go but identity must remain.I think United need a similar appointment to Txiki at City. Style of play was in place long before Pep, eg Foden and Palmer starting to come through are very Barca esque in style but we’re there long before Pep. Maybe Ralf will start to correct it now he’s free from management chains.
Not forgetting here United still attract top talent

A style of play can only lead to a uniformed approach to playing the game if there's a guiding principle set forth by the club. And to do that a DoF has to select the head coach, which will trigger the process, which in-turn will seep through the age groups like a thread. We've never done that until recently with John Murtough being tasked with appointing a head coach. And before that it was the board appointed managers, so there was a lack of vision on how we wanted to play due to the decision making process being dictated by non footballing people.

So now we have a head coach at first team level that has the potential to put forth a strategy that can seep through to the under-age groups like a thread.

 

[Adnan]

Would agree with that to an extent but still think technically City are better man for man. Particularly in defence. Year to year they are pulling away. We work hard and are physical but lack creativity and guile at key times. Looked like we ran out of ideas by the end.


Difference is the philosphy at City comes from La Masia with Rodolfo Borrel bringing his own coaches with him and interestingly its those coaches that now lead. Comparatively our clubs leadership comes from Sheffield United

So Rodolfo Borrel who was sacked from Liverpool has brought his own coaches?

Brian Barry-Murphy who was unearthed from mighty Rochdale City is the Head Coach of the u23s.

Ben Wilkinson who was unearthed from the mighty Sheffield Wednesday is the u18s head coach.

Alan Wright the former Aston Villa fullback is the u16s coach.

And the whole process is being overseen by Jason Wilcox (ex Blackburn Rovers).

 

[KM]

This thread is fecking amazing. Two or three same poster continuously wanking over Man City's academy.

BigSid is a racist and a Man City fan btw who should've been banned ages ago(see his post on Sekou Kaba and other african kids)

Kaba looks like u16 on Facebook?

Do you believe that Kaba is u14 as I hear it said at other clubs that he is much older.

Given the money quoted you would guess they would be above the middle of their groups!

Never that for me. As I've said previously there are a number of African/non UK born kids in the academy system that have (should we say) questionable age identification given there are no registrations in their countries of birth. Am sure the likes of Beaucoup would agree and its certainly not a United only problem. You may be right but am afraid I'm dubious unless they are actually born in this country these days.

The club identity in the academy has completely changed with us buying in players in the u15s and down with few of the players being at the club from a young age. The players brought in are generally early developers with many of them being born abroad. I was told by a parent from Crewe at work last week that in our U14s almost half the team are not UK born with two boys playing supposedly aged 10 from Cameroon who looked more like 17. This race to the bottom is hardly going to establish any identity or culture with learnt values and will see limited development over the coming years unless a rethink is undertaken. Sadly. Those in charge may no longer be at the club once this is realised.

Would be nice if the mods even pretend to give a shit about this forum.

 

[KM]

So Rodolfo Borrel who was sacked from Liverpool has brought his own coaches?

Brian Barry-Murphy who was unearthed from mighty Rochdale City is the Head Coach of the u23s.

Ben Wilkinson who was unearthed from the mighty Sheffield Wednesday is the u18s head coach.

Alan Wright the former Aston Villa fullback is the u16s coach.

And the whole process is being overseen by Jason Wilcox (ex Blackburn Rovers).

Fantastic post.

Clearly we were looking at the wrong Sheffield Club for youth coaching, should have looked at Sheffield Wednesday.

 

[Bigsid]

Its a forum for discussion! As a local coach i think its obvious to most fans that the club has fallen behind in many areas (recruitment being one) and its quite obvious that we are some way behind some of our competitors on and off the pitch. Our club has had amd still has a strong academy but has certainly changed philosophy over the years. Are the likes of Beacoup etc City fans as they seem pretty frank on where we are at?

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Youth structures go through cycles and you only have to look at the history of youth football to see that.

It needs good recruitment (scouting), good development (skill and tactical coaching), good competition (internally from other players and from external league and cup competitions), and a clear pathway to first team opportunities (a first team manager who will give the kids a chance)

On top of that personal motivation, parental support (realistic expectation management), good facilities and one or two other things probably come into play.

I don't think anyone disagrees that we have fallen behind Manchester City in this regard (during a time of stability at City and instability at United)...but I'm not sure we are in crisis like some people suggest and we are not behind other clubs. I certainly don't see a plethora of Academy players breaking through elsewhere.

We set high standards and always have done, so expectations are higher at United than elsewhere. We are going through one of the cycles like in the late 1970's, mid 1980's, and probably mid 2000's.

However, we are still producing first team players which is the point. You can argue all day long whether you like them or think they are good enough. They are playing.

Every decade in our youth history (from 1932) we have brought through 6-7 players that have had very good to excellent careers at United. For most of the time they have played their part in helping us win trophies. That has continued up until the present day.

Unfortunately the fact that Manchester City and Liverpool (largely without a strong youth contingent), have been the most successful club in terms of trophies over the last 4-5 years and we have won nothing (cycles again) means their is an increased focus on what we are doing. That focus leads to increased criticism.

We have been investing again in recent years (after a lack of investment when Woodward arrived) and it takes time to produce new talent. We have reached the U/15 Floodlit Cup Final, the U/16 Premier Cup Final, the finals of the National Qualifiers, topped our group in the UEFA Youth League and were very unlucky to be eliminated, and obviously the final of the FA Youth Cup for the first time in 11 years.

Finally, we do need to improve in certain areas, particularly scouting in my opinion, and others have mentioned coaching so let's see how well we deal with those challenges.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

huge gulf in coaching evident between the two teams, City don't have better players, just play better football.

I watched most of the game and saw a few noticeable things.

I wouldn't say City play better football, although it depends on your definition. They had four shots all game and scored three goals with the other shot blocked. United had over 15 shots at goal and scored once with their keeper much the busier. We also had more corners and put them under more pressure. They scored early which exacerbates that, but we tend to play that that way regardless of the score.

Certainly City played with more composure and we didn't, particularly in front of goal. That could easily be a coaching issue although it depends on your goals. We tend to play fast, first time football. City play slower methodical football. I cant remember any United junior team playing slow methodical football in the past so I guess it's a style thing.

The other thing I noticed is how often 2-3 of our players kept giving the ball away. Is that composure, poor decision making, lack of skills, poor running off the ball by others?

Having said that...2-3 of the City lads gave the ball away a lot too. But that's rarely reviewed as we only focus on United.

Of course supporters don't see the coaching or what happens behind the scenes so we only see the output. Parents might have a closer view but I'm always confused if parents are really unhappy (then they can take their kids elsewhere) or just having a moan ?

Who knows?

 

[Beaucoup]

I watched most of the game and saw a few noticeable things.

I wouldn't say City play better football, although it depends on your definition. They had four shots all game and scored three goals with the other shot blocked. United had over 15 shots at goal and scored once with their keeper much the busier. We also had more corners and put them under more pressure. They scored early which exacerbates that, but we tend to play that that way regardless of the score.

Certainly City played with more composure and we didn't, particularly in front of goal. That could easily be a coaching issue although it depends on your goals. We tend to play fast, first time football. City play slower methodical football. I cant remember any United junior team playing slow methodical football in the past so I guess it's a style thing.

The other thing I noticed is how often 2-3 of our players kept giving the ball away. Is that composure, poor decision making, lack of skills, poor running off the ball by others?

Having said that...2-3 of the City lads gave the ball away a lot too. But that's rarely reviewed as we only focus on United.

Of course supporters don't see the coaching or what happens behind the scenes so we only see the output. Parents might have a closer view but I'm always confused if parents are really unhappy (then they can take their kids elsewhere) or just having a moan ?

Who knows?

It's very difficult to take your kids elsewhere, when my lad left Utd it was a very long and drawn out process, you cannot just leave for free unless the club don't want you.

 

[brother ant]

Thank you MR MUJAC… always enjoy reading your thoughts…. I’m new around here but have been reading the site for 15 years or so without an account and have always liked reading about the youth. These days with the increased media coverage I get to watch some of the games.

Beaucoup… sorry to hear your lad changed from the youth setup… hopefully he can go on to have a fantastic career.

 

[lysglimt]

I disagree with this too. Hannibal has done really well for the u23s. Very classy on the ball, and despite playing in at winger, as a 10, or as an 8. And Hannibal did better than Elanga at the same age for the u23s. It actually took Elanga some adjustment, must like Pereira needed time to adjust to the level. I felt that Hannibal did well from the get go at u23 level, much like how Greenwood and Januzaj did when first making the step up. Of course, there is a slight dulling of their performances when going up a level, but that's expected as it is a step up from the u18s.

I feel like the only thing Hannibal needed to improve on at u23 level at the start was to stop losing his cool, and improve consistency. But I've never felt that he didn't play well like I feel about Garnacho, Elanga, and Pereira.

I am not saying Hannibal has been bad - but some people here try to make it sound like he has had a great season, he hasn't. At U-18 level he was at times great - at U23 level he has had very little end-product (some can be explained by the fact that he plays deeper) - but even as a central midfielder his stats are poor for a guy who has been "tearing it up". I think he has 3-4 assists and 1 goal from a penalty. But fair enough.

However -what you are writing about Elanga I disagree even more with. Elanga is something like 7-8 months old than Hannibal - and Elanga has generally been a lot better than Hannibal all season. Elanga DID tear it up at U23 - there were matches where he was our only offensive threat early on in the season, because of his movement and pace. And imo Elanga has by far been our best player when he has played - and it shows because he has been relatively mature even at first-team level.

 

[Beaucoup]

Thank you MR MUJAC… always enjoy reading your thoughts…. I’m new around here but have been reading the site for 15 years or so without an account and have always liked reading about the youth. These days with the increased media coverage I get to watch some of the games.

Beaucoup… sorry to hear your lad changed from the youth setup… hopefully he can go on to have a fantastic career.

No problem, he's signed as a pro, so he's on the journey.

 

[In Rainbows]

I am not saying Hannibal has been bad - but some people here try to make it sound like he has had a great season, he hasn't. At U-18 level he was at times great - at U23 level he has had very little end-product (some can be explained by the fact that he plays deeper) - but even as a central midfielder his stats are poor for a guy who has been "tearing it up". I think he has 3-4 assists and 1 goal from a penalty. But fair enough.

However -what you are writing about Elanga I disagree even more with. Elanga is something like 7-8 months old than Hannibal - and Elanga has generally been a lot better than Hannibal all season. Elanga DID tear it up at U23 - there were matches where he was our only offensive threat early on in the season, because of his movement and pace. And imo Elanga has by far been our best player when he has played - and it shows because he has been relatively mature even at first-team level.

I never said Elanga didn't do well. I said it took him longer to adjust than Hannibal in terms of performance. Which to me matters when trying to evaluate potential step ups or talent. I don't judge Hannibal with goals and assists because some players' impact goes beyond that. For an attacker, it is a little more important. For example, when Januzaj first went to the u21s, his goal scoring and assists weren't awe inspiring. However, because he was so classy on the ball even while playing as a striker sometimes (would often alternate with Lingard), he impacted the game through his ability and made the team better. When he played against Tottenham to decide the u21 title, Januzaj did not have assists, but had the pass before the assist. Was the best player on the pitch that day.

I don't know how you judge players if you don't believe Hannibal has not been consistently one of the 2 best players every match at u23 level. The kid keeps possession, is great at starting attacks with his dribbling, provides excellent service to his teammates, and has a bit of workrate.

Now I remember the only flaws he had initially. You could say he had bad defensive awareness apart from his petulance. Apart from that, I think he's been better than Elanga at u18-u23 level. Elanga, being older was usually one of the top 2 players for United match by match. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. He had already outgrown the u23 level. I feel the same about Hannibal.

 

[lysglimt]

I never said Elanga didn't do well. I said it took him longer to adjust than Hannibal in terms of performance. Which to me matters when trying to evaluate potential step ups or talent. I don't judge Hannibal with goals and assists because some players' impact goes beyond that. For an attacker, it is a little more important. For example, when Januzaj first went to the u21s, his goal scoring and assists weren't awe inspiring. However, because he was so classy on the ball even while playing as a striker sometimes (would often alternate with Lingard), he impacted the game through his ability and made the team better. When he played against Tottenham to decide the u21 title, Januzaj did not have assists, but had the pass before the assist. Was the best player on the pitch that day.

I don't know how you judge players if you don't believe Hannibal has not been consistently one of the 2 best players every match at u23 level. The kid keeps possession, is great at starting attacks with his dribbling, provides excellent service to his teammates, and has a bit of workrate.

Now I remember the only flaws he had initially. You could say he had bad defensive awareness apart from his petulance. Apart from that, I think he's been better than Elanga at u18-u23 level. Elanga, being older was usually one of the top 2 players for United match by match. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. He had already outgrown the u23 level. I feel the same about Hannibal.

I would say both Shoretire and Hannibal have been a few steps below their best in the last 6-7 months - and I would say Fernandez has been consistently better than Hannibal all season (and he is even younger than Hannibal) - and I would actually say that D'Mani Mellor has been very good - even if I don't rate his potential that highly (in addition to him being much older) . So yes I agree that Hannibal has been among our best players - but not at the level I expected from him now that he is 19 years old. And of course you are right that a player shouldnt be judged on goals and assists alone, but 3-4 assists simply isn''t good enough when he is a creative player.

So in my opinion - no one at U23-level except maybe Elanga, has been at the level where they should expect to be given chances at the first team. But Hannibal is one of few who has the potential to go there.

And even if I dont agree with you, I like your argumentation so credit to you