MLB 2021

[MrMarcello]

Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, Aaron, Williams... Bonds wasn't top five prior to the HGH stuff. Top ten at best and that's a stretch IMO. There's Musial, Speaker, Cobb*, Mantle, Hornsby, Clemente, the list goes on. Bonds was like halfway through his career at the time.

*Regardless of his character he was a damn good player.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Baseball is such a fascinating sport tbh. Just like the NFL,people who don’t watch it tend to focus just on the basic skills involved but there are so many tactical decisions involved every game which is really the interesting part of watching it.

 

[WI_Red]

Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, Aaron, Williams... Bonds wasn't top five prior to the HGH stuff. Top ten at best and that's a stretch IMO. There's Musial, Speaker, Cobb*, Mantle, Hornsby, Clemente, the list goes on. Bonds was like halfway through his career at the time.

*Regardless of his character he was a damn good player.

Have to disagree. His stats prior to his steroid usage were top 10 worthy, and even adjusted down for the steroid bump the rest of his career pushes him into the conversation. He was already a 40 homer guy pre-steroids and his 93 season (first with Giants) is one of the best non-steroid era seasons ever. The earliest that people think he began using was post 1998 season so just looking at his stats through 1998 (age 33) he had 2,000 hits, 445 HR's, 460 SB's and a .420 OBP. Those are hall of fame numbers full stop. All the numbers after that are tainted, but he still easily finishes his career with 2,500 hits, 600 HR's, and 500 SB's without the steroids. By age 33 he was the only member of the career 400/400 club (there are only 8 300/300 guys). He ended his career as the only, and like only ever, member of the 500/500 club. He had 3 MVP's pre-1998 as well.

I desperately wish he had not used steroids, but he did. The 1998 national fascination with McGwire and Sosa's steroid fueled HR record chase is what likely pushed him over. Dude had an ego as big as his head got and I am confident he despised that he finished in MVP voting behind steroid users Mo Vaughn/Sosa/Galaraga/McGwire/(and likely) Biggio.

 

[MrMarcello]

It's highly likely Bonds began using PED/steroids in the late 80s to early 90s like most of that generation but moved to HGH in the late 90s. He was a so-so player from 86-89 then suddenly powered up in 1990. Maybe he found his groove after four years, or perhaps something else helped him strengthen and increase his bat speed.

But let's say he did not juice while in Pittsburgh, he likely started after joining San Francisco. Gotta recall BALCO was located in the Bay Area and was probably juicing the A's and Giants by the time Bonds moved that way; most everyone on the Oakland roster was juiced at some point, probably the Giants as well, cough*Matt Williams*cough. Coincidence Bonds jumped to 40+ HRs after moving to the Bay? Maybe, maybe not. Some of that was the wind factor for sure but it's certainly plausible Bonds was already juiced by the mid-90s if not sooner. Then he needed something better to overtake the McGwires and Sosas of the baseball world.

He was certainly on a HOF path but not top five all-time after say twelve years. Maybe had he continued on for 6-10 more years at his then pace an argument was to be had. While some of his numbers were standout, having a 500/500 doesn't immediately equate him to top five all-time. Why not Henderson with his 297 HR/1406 SB stats in such case? He's the only 250-HR/1000-SB/.400-OBP guy in history, all-time runs scored leader as well. Stats can be used in any context to establish a reasoning.

I personally do not care about HGH/PED era as I think the majority used including a few in the Hall, and I would vote Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, et al in today if I could; not sold on McGwire as I found him one-dimensional, basically a better version of Dave Kingman or Ron Kittle but the homers probably get him in. I'd take Bonds all-time numbers as quite significant and place him in the top ten all-time. Mantle and Ruth could drink all night and still smash all day and Mays was magnificent (we'll never know just how good Mantle would have been if not for the leg injuries and the alcoholism). I cannot puth Bonds above them, just my view. Trout is on a trajectory to perhaps be the greatest CF ever but still has a ways to go to cement such status.

Ted Williams was the greatest hitter ever, for me. He gave up three prime years plus two mid-30s years to fight two wars and would have more MVPs with those five years plus the fact voters often picked the MVP from the winning team and some disliked Ted due to his persona. He won the triple crown thrice and did not win the MVP in those years (including the .406 season); Joe D won twice and Gordon once in those three years and yet Ted bested all of them statistically but the Yankees were stacked and Joe D was a media darling. Ted should probably have between 4-6 MVPs without adding in the military years; without the forced military service would likely have more than 3400 hits, 675 homers, 2400 RBIs, 2400 runs, 675 doubles, 2800 walks, etc. He hit .344 with a .482 OBP (best all-time), .634 SLG, 1.116 OPS. He'd be talked about as much, perhaps slightly less than Ruth as the best hitter/player ever, especially if he had gotten close to or passed Ruth's homerun number. Or if he had played for say the Giants or Yankees back then and been a New York media darling.

 

[WI_Red]

It's highly likely Bonds began using PED/steroids in the late 80s to early 90s like most of that generation but moved to HGH in the late 90s. He was a so-so player from 86-89 then suddenly powered up in 1990. Maybe he found his groove after four years, or perhaps something else helped him strengthen and increase his bat speed.

But let's say he did not juice while in Pittsburgh, he likely started after joining San Francisco. Gotta recall BALCO was located in the Bay Area and was probably juicing the A's and Giants by the time Bonds moved that way; most everyone on the Oakland roster was juiced at some point, probably the Giants as well, cough*Matt Williams*cough. Coincidence Bonds jumped to 40+ HRs after moving to the Bay? Maybe, maybe not. Some of that was the wind factor for sure but it's certainly plausible Bonds was already juiced by the mid-90s if not sooner. Then he needed something better to overtake the McGwires and Sosas of the baseball world.

He was certainly on a HOF path but not top five all-time after say twelve years. Maybe had he continued on for 6-10 more years at his then pace an argument was to be had. While some of his numbers were standout, having a 500/500 doesn't immediately equate him to top five all-time. Why not Henderson with his 297 HR/1406 SB stats in such case? He's the only 250-HR/1000-SB/.400-OBP guy in history, all-time runs scored leader as well. Stats can be used in any context to establish a reasoning.

I personally do not care about HGH/PED era as I think the majority used including a few in the Hall, and I would vote Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, et al in today if I could; not sold on McGwire as I found him one-dimensional, basically a better version of Dave Kingman or Ron Kittle but the homers probably get him in. I'd take Bonds all-time numbers as quite significant and place him in the top ten all-time. Mantle and Ruth could drink all night and still smash all day and Mays was magnificent (we'll never know just how good Mantle would have been if not for the leg injuries and the alcoholism). I cannot puth Bonds above them, just my view. Trout is on a trajectory to perhaps be the greatest CF ever but still has a ways to go to cement such status.

Ted Williams was the greatest hitter ever, for me. He gave up three prime years plus two mid-30s years to fight two wars and would have more MVPs with those five years plus the fact voters often picked the MVP from the winning team and some disliked Ted due to his persona. He won the triple crown thrice and did not win the MVP in those years (including the .406 season); Joe D won twice and Gordon once in those three years and yet Ted bested all of them statistically but the Yankees were stacked and Joe D was a media darling. Ted should probably have between 4-6 MVPs without adding in the military years; without the forced military service would likely have more than 3400 hits, 675 homers, 2400 RBIs, 2400 runs, 675 doubles, 2800 walks, etc. He hit .344 with a .482 OBP (best all-time), .634 SLG, 1.116 OPS. He'd be talked about as much, perhaps slightly less than Ruth as the best hitter/player ever, especially if he had gotten close to or passed Ruth's homerun number. Or if he had played for say the Giants or Yankees back then and been a New York media darling.

fantastic reply! I’ll reply proper when I’m done with the lawns

 

[WI_Red]

It's highly likely Bonds began using PED/steroids in the late 80s to early 90s like most of that generation but moved to HGH in the late 90s. He was a so-so player from 86-89 then suddenly powered up in 1990. Maybe he found his groove after four years, or perhaps something else helped him strengthen and increase his bat speed.

But let's say he did not juice while in Pittsburgh, he likely started after joining San Francisco. Gotta recall BALCO was located in the Bay Area and was probably juicing the A's and Giants by the time Bonds moved that way; most everyone on the Oakland roster was juiced at some point, probably the Giants as well, cough*Matt Williams*cough. Coincidence Bonds jumped to 40+ HRs after moving to the Bay? Maybe, maybe not. Some of that was the wind factor for sure but it's certainly plausible Bonds was already juiced by the mid-90s if not sooner. Then he needed something better to overtake the McGwires and Sosas of the baseball world.

He was certainly on a HOF path but not top five all-time after say twelve years. Maybe had he continued on for 6-10 more years at his then pace an argument was to be had. While some of his numbers were standout, having a 500/500 doesn't immediately equate him to top five all-time. Why not Henderson with his 297 HR/1406 SB stats in such case? He's the only 250-HR/1000-SB/.400-OBP guy in history, all-time runs scored leader as well. Stats can be used in any context to establish a reasoning.

I personally do not care about HGH/PED era as I think the majority used including a few in the Hall, and I would vote Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, et al in today if I could; not sold on McGwire as I found him one-dimensional, basically a better version of Dave Kingman or Ron Kittle but the homers probably get him in. I'd take Bonds all-time numbers as quite significant and place him in the top ten all-time. Mantle and Ruth could drink all night and still smash all day and Mays was magnificent (we'll never know just how good Mantle would have been if not for the leg injuries and the alcoholism). I cannot puth Bonds above them, just my view. Trout is on a trajectory to perhaps be the greatest CF ever but still has a ways to go to cement such status.

Ted Williams was the greatest hitter ever, for me. He gave up three prime years plus two mid-30s years to fight two wars and would have more MVPs with those five years plus the fact voters often picked the MVP from the winning team and some disliked Ted due to his persona. He won the triple crown thrice and did not win the MVP in those years (including the .406 season); Joe D won twice and Gordon once in those three years and yet Ted bested all of them statistically but the Yankees were stacked and Joe D was a media darling. Ted should probably have between 4-6 MVPs without adding in the military years; without the forced military service would likely have more than 3400 hits, 675 homers, 2400 RBIs, 2400 runs, 675 doubles, 2800 walks, etc. He hit .344 with a .482 OBP (best all-time), .634 SLG, 1.116 OPS. He'd be talked about as much, perhaps slightly less than Ruth as the best hitter/player ever, especially if he had gotten close to or passed Ruth's homerun number. Or if he had played for say the Giants or Yankees back then and been a New York media darling.

A couple of things re: Bonds earlier in career:

- I have seen zero claims he used steroids early in his career. Maybe he did, but the earliest mention of it was in 98.
- He was NOT a so-so player in 88-89. He was a 6-7 WAR player both years and won the MVP in 90
- In terms of power he 25/24 HR's in 87/88 , had a slightly down year in 89 (19) and was back up to 33 in 90 and 25 in 91.
- He was the Pirates leadoff batter through the end of 89, so adjust expectations accordingly re: power and also type and location of pitches seen.
- His bat speed was always elite going back to his ASU days.
- His Asshole score was also elite in college as his teammates hated his ass, so some things never change I guess

I know that I have a bias as he was the best player on my favorite team as a kid, but I am not a Bonds defender when it comes to the impact they had on his career stats. They added 15-20 HR's a year they added later in his career (I think he was a 40-45 HR a year guy naturally) ballooned his elite OBP skills to a cartoonish level and also aided him in his AVG as it let him be selective as pitchers nibbled at the plate. Ironically, his steroid usage probably cost him the chance for 3000 hits.

All that being said, I am convinced he was one of the top 5 hitters in baseball history. Williams was the greatest and Mays is up there as well. I have a hard time considering any players who played in the pre-integration era, but I can sneak Ruth in. Cobb can go feck himself. Mantle was magnificent, so I guess my top 5, in order would be:

1. Williams
2. Mays
3. Ruth
4/5. Bonds/Mantle in whatever order makes one happy

I also could care less about steroids/hgh. The prior generation had amphetamines sitting in bowls like M&M's. Actually the generation should get our respect was the cocaine generation in the 60/70's. Those guy's were using performance unenhancing drugs. They were all legal at the time of use and both pitchers and hitters were using.

As an aside as an apparent fellow baseball lover. The podcast "The Dollup" has done a few baseball episodes and they are fantastic. It's a comedy duo who normally does historical stuff. They are not for everyone as their form of comedy can be abrasive.

Here are my favorite:

Billy Martin pt.1 and pt.2
The San Jose Bees
Frank Verdi
The Cocaine Pirates
Fleet Walker (the first black baseball player)
Glenn Burke (first openly gay player)

 

[MrMarcello]

Good summary. What I was getting at on Bonds' early years was he was a talented player that hadn't quite hit the heights anticipated after being drafted 6th overall in one of the greatest drafts. That's how I see it but I wasn't a follower of Bonds and the Pirates in those days. I was an AL guy first and foremost, big fan of the likes of Clemens, Mattingly, Sierra, O'Brien, Ripken, and so on. And I will go to my grave claiming Trammell should have the MVP in 1987 (and Davis or Smith in the NL).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml
From 86-89 Bonds hit .223, .261, .283, .248, averaged 21 HR and 56 RBI per season, a high of .368 OBP and never topped .500 SLG. I was not aware of him being a leadoff man in those years but may explain his lack of power stats, though his BA was quite average. But his steals were 30+ outside 1988 when he had 17 for some reason and topped 90 runs from 87-89. His OBP was ok for a leadoff guy while I'd give him a high mark on SLG for a leadoff hitter, especially in 87 and 88 (just about everyone spiked offensively in 87).

His WAR was much better than I expected granted it's difficult to look at something that didn't exist (or wasn't officially tracked) back then but does gauge the actual value (yes, I've come around to WAR since). I presume his ability to generate runs and excellent defense in LF helped raise the WAR. He ranked 9th in 1987, behind Randy Ready of all people (everyone spiked), 7th in 1988, and zoomed to 3rd in 1989. Btw, Will Clark should have won MVP over his teammate but I'm slightly biased as I was modeling my batting style off Will by age 13-14 before reverting back to a more open stance towards the pitcher.

But something seems to have changed Bonds hitting curve in 1990, perhaps a natural progression, perhaps more strength and conditioning, perhaps a change in batting style, perhaps a shift in batting order. Or perhaps something else enhanced him from what could be to what is. There's no doubt by 1990 he turned into a perennial MVP candidate, with or without the juice.

Edit: ESPN had an article a while back about Bonds being kicked off the ASU team after a team vote but the coach overrode the decision as he needed Bonds to have a shot at winning the national title. Found it https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/060504.

 

[WI_Red]

Good summary. What I was getting at on Bonds' early years was he was a talented player that hadn't quite hit the heights anticipated after being drafted 6th overall in one of the greatest drafts. That's how I see it but I wasn't a follower of Bonds and the Pirates in those days. I was an AL guy first and foremost, big fan of the likes of Clemens, Mattingly, Sierra, O'Brien, Ripken, and so on. And I will go to my grave claiming Trammell should have the MVP in 1987 (and Gwynn or Smith in the NL).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml
From 86-89 Bonds hit .223, .261, .283, .248, averaged 21 HR and 56 RBI per season, a high of .368 OBP and never topped .500 SLG. I was not aware of him being a leadoff man in those years but may explain his lack of power stats, though his BA was quite average. But his steals were 30+ outside 1988 when he had 17 for some reason and topped 90 runs from 87-89. His OBP was ok for a leadoff guy while I'd give him a high mark on SLG for a leadoff hitter, especially in 87 and 88 (just about everyone spiked offensively in 87).

His WAR was much better than I expected granted it's difficult to look at something that didn't exist (or wasn't officially tracked) back then but does gauge the actual value (yes, I've come around to WAR since). I presume his ability to generate runs and excellent defense in LF helped raise the WAR. He ranked 9th in 1987, behind Randy Ready of all people (everyone spiked), 7th in 1988, and zoomed to 3rd in 1989. Btw, Will Clark should have won MVP over his teammate but I'm slightly biased as I was modeling my batting style off Will by age 13-14 before reverting back to a more open stance towards the pitcher.

But something seems to have changed Bonds hitting curve in 1990, perhaps a natural progression, perhaps more strength and conditioning, perhaps a change in batting style, perhaps a shift in batting order. Or perhaps something else enhanced him from what could be to what is. There's no doubt by 1990 he turned into a perennial MVP candidate, with or without the juice.

Ha! Me too. My favorite player as a kid, especially as a left handed first baseman.

One thing to keep in mind with early Bonds, and for me one of the defining facets of his game: 1988 was the last year he had more strikeouts than walks. That stat is the one that for me shows that the OBP for the rest of his career was not some steroid artifact. He always had a great eye, but it took him a few years to dial in the contact.

By the way, everyone can point at the 73 hr's in 01 as his most absurd stat. That's not even the best stat or his most absurd year. Check out 04:

OBP: .609!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OPS: 1.42
BB: 232
SO: 41
BB/K: 5.6
HR: 45
H: 135
HR%: 33% of hits

oh yeah, he was 39

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Wow! The NY Yankees totally suck. Tonight they ended by being swept by the Blue Jays. It was the worst home series record for more than 100 years, without leading any of the four games at any point.

Now, they go to the Mets for 3 games, starting tomorrow night. With so much blood in the water, the Mets are going to destroy them, no doubt.

 

[WI_Red]

Ugh. I don’t follow the AL much these days. What’s going on with the Yankees? Injuries? They added a lot of power at the deadline.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Ugh. I don’t follow the AL much these days. What’s going on with the Yankees? Injuries? They added a lot of power at the deadline.

Everything is going wrong
- Closers aren't closing
- Hitters aren't hitting, low batting averages
- Aaron Boone should have brought in a more powerful closer earlier tonight and just bad all around

They've had a few win streaks, but that doesn't mean anything if they can't hold it together with only a few weeks left to go. I don't watch as much as I used to. I grew up with 4 generations of yankees fans. They've just been terrible for so long

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

It’s incredible that they had a 8.5 game gap over the Blue Jays just 11 games ago and that is down to 0.5 now. Just a complete meltdown

 

[ooeat0meoo]

I'm expecting the owners will be making huge changes after this season. It's just ugly.
Poor Aaron Boone looked like he was going to cry during the post match interviews. And all the questions were such gentle softballs. The NYC sports media seemed to set him up with almost every question by half answering each question for him

Just sad
I bet the Mets fans are enjoying this

But hey, the Mets fans have been a miserable mess for decades

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Ugh. I don’t follow the AL much these days. What’s going on with the Yankees? Injuries? They added a lot of power at the deadline.

The 2nd worst team in all of MLB, Baltimore swept the Yankees just before this Blue Jays series.
Gleyber Torres was interviewed before the game. He looked mighty nervous. Sounded like a Liverpool fan of the late '90's "I've got next year"


Ken Davidoff of the NY Post

"No more recommendations.

No more rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic that currently is these New York Yankees.

No, the industry’s gold-standard franchise comes to Citi Field on Friday night facing the most basic and confounding of dilemmas:

Do they have anything more in them?

Can they steer away from what would be one of the most disastrous finishes in their rich history?"


Blood in the water and I predict the Mets will eat them alive

 

[MrMarcello]

So, if the Blue Jays manage to grab a wild card spot, does Vlad Jr get more love in the MVP vote? I agree what Ohtani is doing this season is nothing short of astonishing and amazing.

Vlad has Ohtani beat in quite a few hitting categories and is closing in on a triple crown. Another one of those situations where I feel there should be a second award, one for the actual "most valuable player" to a team (however that should be determined) and another for best hitter/offensive player. How can one be the most valuable player in a league for a sub .500 team? This has surfaced in the ARod with Texas days and recently with Trout.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Quick question for a baseball newb... Can two wild card spots be taken by teams in the same division?

 

[WI_Red]

Quick question for a baseball newb... Can two wild card spots be taken by teams in the same division?

Yep and it has happened a few times I think. I remember it for sure in 2017 with 3 teams from the NL West (Dodgers, Rockies, D-Backs)

 

[Vidyoyo]

Yep and it has happened a few times I think. I remember it for sure in 2017 with 3 teams from the NL West (Dodgers, Rockies, D-Backs)

Ah interesting! If the season ended today then both leagues would have it (Red Sox/Yankees & Dodgers/Padres)

 

[WI_Red]

Ah interesting!

It's going to suck this year when the best team in baseball (Dodges/Giants) has to play the second best team in baseball (Dodgers/Giants) or the second best team loses out in a one game WC playoff game. Stupid system after playing 162 games.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

It's going to suck this year when the best team in baseball (Dodges/Giants) has to play the second best team in baseball (Dodgers/Giants) or the second best team loses out in a one game WC playoff game. Stupid system after playing 162 games.

The wildcard single game system is pretty ridiculous. Considering how interesting playoff baseball is I am surprised that it has been allowed to stay like this for so long

 

[edcunited1878]

So, if the Blue Jays manage to grab a wild card spot, does Vlad Jr get more love in the MVP vote? I agree what Ohtani is doing this season is nothing short of astonishing and amazing.

Vlad has Ohtani beat in quite a few hitting categories and is closing in on a triple crown. Another one of those situations where I feel there should be a second award, one for the actual "most valuable player" to a team (however that should be determined) and another for best hitter/offensive player. How can one be the most valuable player in a league for a sub .500 team? This has surfaced in the ARod with Texas days and recently with Trout.

There hasn't been a pitcher-hitter combo of Ohtani's stature since Ruth, so he's going to get a lot of votes.

Always agree on the debate between MVP and most outstanding or best overall player. Best overall player in the AL is Ohtani. Vlad Jr is having a tremendous season and would be a clear MVP, but his teammate Semien is having a great season too and should get some MVP votes. That Blue Jays offense have a handful of offensive threats this season.

 

[WeePat]

With the regular season winding down, who would you guys say are the favourites to reach and/or win the world series, based on what you're seen so far?

The team I'm passively rooting for is doing pretty OK but looking at everyone's win/loss record so far, there are about 4-5 teams with slightly or significantly better records.

 

[edcunited1878]

With the regular season winding down, who would you guys say are the favourites to reach and/or win the world series, based on what you're seen so far?

The team I'm passively rooting for is doing pretty OK but looking at everyone's win/loss record so far, there are about 4-5 teams with slightly or significantly better records.

National League: Dodgers and Giants
American League: Tampa Bay....and Toronto is a dark horse because they are the hottest team in MLB right now and streaking WC cards tend to do some damage

 

[WI_Red]

National League: Dodgers and Giants
American League: Tampa Bay....and Toronto is a dark horse because they are the hottest team in MLB right now and streaking WC cards tend to do some damage

Boo Dodgers!

They are the closest thing to an oil club in American sports. They even wear blue too.

 

[edcunited1878]

Boo Dodgers!

They are the closest thing to an oil club in American sports. They even wear blue too.

Haha, trust me...I'm all for the Dodgers and all LA teams to suck. But the Dodgers spend so much money and resources on player development and free agency, they don't miss a beat. Whoever plays for them, just produces. Seeing the Giants completely overachieve and sustain it the entire season is frustrating, but credit to them.

 

[WeePat]

National League: Dodgers and Giants
American League: Tampa Bay....and Toronto is a dark horse because they are the hottest team in MLB right now and streaking WC cards tend to do some damage

Thanks.

Is there a sport Tampa Bay isn't fantastic in? What a great place to live if you're a sports fan.

There are bunch of teams really close together below the Rays in the AL, so the jostle for seedings should be interesting.

 

[WI_Red]

Thanks.

Is there a sport Tampa Bay isn't fantastic in? What a great place to live if you're a sports fan.

There are bunch of teams really close together below the Rays in the AL, so the jostle for seedings should be interesting.

Is a team good if no one sees them play?

Seriously though, Florida sports fans are the absolute worst. If the teams aren't good, and in the Rays case even when they are, the stadiums/arenas are always half empty.

 

[WI_Red]

Haha, trust me...I'm all for the Dodgers and all LA teams to suck. But the Dodgers spend so much money and resources on player development and free agency, they don't miss a beat. Whoever plays for them, just produces. Seeing the Giants completely overachieve and sustain it the entire season is frustrating, but credit to them.

Growing up a Giants fan in LA was painful, but thankfully I moved before the obscene money explosion in LA. I do have to say that their history of developing players (4 ROY's in a row in the 80's and 5 in the 90's!!.....although the last 2 in the 90's were sketchy) is admirable. Even now they are still doing it as Smith/Kershaw/Urias/Buehler/Lux/etc. are all drafted and developed. My Giants are similar as the core of the club that won 3 WS, and is still in place, were all home grown.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Watching the Giants game right now and bullpen games are so fascinating to watch. So much riding on how you manage the pitchers

 

[edcunited1878]

Growing up a Giants fan in LA was painful, but thankfully I moved before the obscene money explosion in LA. I do have to say that their history of developing players (4 ROY's in a row in the 80's and 5 in the 90's!!.....although the last 2 in the 90's were sketchy) is admirable. Even now they are still doing it as Smith/Kershaw/Urias/Buehler/Lux/etc. are all drafted and developed. My Giants are similar as the core of the club that won 3 WS, and is still in place, were all home grown.

Yeah, that's bad...and seeing all the LA fans come to SD or worse, living in SD and are LA fans, is the pits. You know as a Giants fan, there is a section of LA fans who cause trouble and can't take what they give as a fan. It's a turnoff. It's changing a little bit now, but still way too many Dodger fans during home Padre games.

Not only is their player development admirable, but the likes of Turner and Muncy, guys they reinvented and took chances on. They might be the only team that can afford to sit a former MVP and still go strength to strength. It's stupid. Giants and the Bay Area love their baseball, so I always respected that. Crawford, Posey, Belt, etc are playing their part and are no non-sense dudes. But the pitching has pushed them over the top even before trading for Bryant.

 

[WI_Red]

Yeah, that's bad...and seeing all the LA fans come to SD or worse, living in SD and are LA fans, is the pits. You know as a Giants fan, there is a section of LA fans who cause trouble and can't take what they give as a fan. It's a turnoff. It's changing a little bit now, but still way too many Dodger fans during home Padre games.

Not only is their player development admirable, but the likes of Turner and Muncy, guys they reinvented and took chances on. They might be the only team that can afford to sit a former MVP and still go strength to strength. It's stupid. Giants and the Bay Area love their baseball, so I always respected that. Crawford, Posey, Belt, etc are playing their part and are no non-sense dudes. But the pitching has pushed them over the top even before trading for Bryant.

Absolutely agree. Webb has been phenomenal and is carrying them recently, but, to @Ayush_reddevil 's point, the secret sauce might be Kapler's bullpen managing magic. That and his matchup lineups. I was not convinced by the hire, but like pretty much everything else Zaidi has done it is perfection. He is conjuring the Muncy/Turner/Taylor magic in SF with Ruff/Solano/Yaz/etc.

 

[edcunited1878]

Absolutely agree. Webb has been phenomenal and is carrying them recently, but, to @Ayush_reddevil 's point, the secret sauce might be Kapler's bullpen managing magic. That and his matchup lineups. I was not convinced by the hire, but like pretty much everything else Zaidi has done it is perfection. He is conjuring the Muncy/Turner/Taylor magic in SF with Ruff/Solano/Yaz/etc.

Kapler is a big analytics guy from what I remember during his time managing the Phillies, but the Phillies didn't buy into it and it wasn't a good fit. With Zaidi, it's a great fit and not sure how they will be next year or the following year due to contracts and players getting older, but it's a great case study this year for them and they have all to play for. Still need to rebuild, but guys like Yaz developing, Wade Jr., etc. helps. They can identify the players they will go in on and build a roster that way. The amount of HRs they've hit this year is shocking to me, but maybe that's part of their approach (e.g. launch angle, flyball/groundball ratio, etc.).

Their bullpen has been so efficient and won many, many matchups. They are being used a lot, but being used correctly and without too much exposure in a series.

 

[MrMarcello]

Boo Dodgers!

They are the closest thing to an oil club in American sports. They even wear blue too.

Every club would do it if they were fortunate enough like the Dodgers to have that network deal and capital from ownership.

 

[MrMarcello]

Is a team good if no one sees them play?

Seriously though, Florida sports fans are the absolute worst. If the teams aren't good, and in the Rays case even when they are, the stadiums/arenas are always half empty.

If they would build/play in or near Tampa/Ybor there would be a bigger draw. And that dome sucks ass. It's a terrible environment.

 

[WI_Red]

If they would build/play in or near Tampa/Ybor there would be a bigger draw. And that dome sucks ass. It's a terrible environment.

Marlins have a brand new stadium, also an abomination, and no one goes to those games either.

 

[WI_Red]

Kapler is a big analytics guy from what I remember during his time managing the Phillies, but the Phillies didn't buy into it and it wasn't a good fit. With Zaidi, it's a great fit and not sure how they will be next year or the following year due to contracts and players getting older, but it's a great case study this year for them and they have all to play for. Still need to rebuild, but guys like Yaz developing, Wade Jr., etc. helps. They can identify the players they will go in on and build a roster that way. The amount of HRs they've hit this year is shocking to me, but maybe that's part of their approach (e.g. launch angle, flyball/groundball ratio, etc.).

Their bullpen has been so efficient and won many, many matchups. They are being used a lot, but being used correctly and without too much exposure in a series.

The contract thing is interesting. Prior to the season the Giants were looking at the last seasons of, or a team option on, Posey's, Crawford's, Belt's, Longoria's, and Cueto's contracts. That is around $100 million off the books with a fantastic farm system about ready to start kicking out players. Well, this season flipped that on is head as Crawford has a new contract and Belt is about to get one I think. I also doubt Posey's option is going to be declined. That just leaves Cueto (probably declined) and Longoria (depends maybe on Bryant). Interesting times and decisions for Zaidi.

Oh, and Gausman is a FA this year as well.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

As I predicted, against the odds makers
Yankees got crushed 3 - 10 by the Mets
Tonight in NYC

It's likely the Yankees will get destroyed Saturday and Sunday, too
Even though two of the best relief pitchers Green and Chapman are now on two days rest, they'll still lose on Saturday

Yankees Odds	-125
Mets Odds	+105

 

[MrMarcello]

Marlins have a brand new stadium, also an abomination, and no one goes to those games either.

That's been a Miami sports thing forever if memory serves. Tampa football and hockey is well supported. Even the Rowdies draw a following despite playing in St Pete but it's a nice scenic venue on the bay front.

 

[freeurmind]

Cashman and Boone need to go.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

How can a team with the second highest payroll be so bad