More possession would work with United, not hoofing ball

[Borys]

It's okay we don't play possession based football against City, because we would be murdered anyway. Not with those players we have currently at our disposal.

Counter attack was the right idea, I'm more worried how shit we're at this system too.

 

[notcool]

However effective counterattacking relies on (among other things)proactive pressure on the ball, quick transitions and clinical finishing, none of which we could produce against City which is why we were comfortably second best to their system.

Our witless, gutless attempt at using the counter was what killed us against a fine team, not that we opted for the counter in the first place.

They had an extra guy in midfield. Remember when Brendan Rodgers compared Sterling to Messi? Yeah, apparently he was right. They used him as a false nine (and Silva in the second half) and that gave them numerical superiority in the centre. What you're asking is like asking a 10 man team to get control of a game. It's difficult.

 

[tomaldinho1]

They had an extra guy in midfield. Remember when Brendan Rodgers compared Sterling to Messi? Yeah, apparently he was right. They used him as a false nine (and Silva in the second half) and that gave them numerical superiority in the centre. What you're asking is like asking a 10 man team to get control of a game. It's difficult.

This is why I don't think the big CF up top approach works against them. Otamendi/Kompany is a realtively vulnerable partnership but because Lukaku was always alone (and played poorly) it's not hard for them to marshal him - plus Fernadinho mops up anything on the floor that would go to feet and was never really under pressure. You end up with the 9 men defending and 1 up top scenario that happened on Sun.

At the Etihad I would love to see something a bit funky, like a fake 4-5-1 where the striker is a false 9 (I think Pep actually did this before in the PL?) for example Lingard, whose main job when defending is sitting on the DM.

In defence:

--------------------- Matic-----------------------
Rashford - Herrera - Lingard - Pogba - Martial

In attack:

------------------- Matic ------------
-------------Herrera - Pogba------------
Rashford--------Lingard----------Martial


This doesn't really work with someone like Lukaku or Ibra because you need the agility,speed and stamina of someone like Lingard to pull CBs out of line/occupy the DM (the latter leaving City 1 man down in the middle).

Disclaimer: Lingard is only an example, I'm not saying he's suddenly Messi. Ideally we can snaffle Griezmann who would play this role perfectly.

 

[ijc]

According to José, it is better not to have the ball. Having the ball apparently makes you afraid and liable to make mistakes. If this is José's philosophy, why are we surprised?

Did he really say that? If so, I'm shocked.

 

[sunama]

More possession?
We tried that before Jose and it was some of the most boring football ever seen at OT.
In fact, we were rated as one of the most boring teams in Europe to watch.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

More possession?
We tried that before Jose and it was some of the most boring football ever seen at OT.
In fact, we were rated as one of the most boring teams in Europe to watch.

Just because we had a manager who used a possession-based startegy and failed doesn't mean that playing a possession-based style has to be either unsuccessful or boring, this should be clear to anyone right now.
When it did work though, especially in that first season where we also beat City 4-2, we played some of the most satisfying football that I've seen us play at any point since supporting United. And we did it with a midfield made out of Herrera-Fellaini and Carrick, so to those measuring the strenght of our squads man to man, I'd say that it's obviously has very little to do with the personell and almost everything to do with tactical approach and training. We had absolutely no clear idea of how to attack City yesterday, which is both baffling and a bit worrying. That's why we look weaker both individually and as a unit. If there's one thing you'd expect Mourinho to have an answer to at this point in his career, it's how to beat a Guardiola team.

 

[Swift Football]

For me, hoofing the ball is not a problem , but when Rashford is hoofing the ball and Lukaku is the one who is trying to control the hoofed ball, then its a big problem.

 

[reddevil702]

It's not so much possession percentage, it's what we do when we have the ball. In the City game it seemed all of our players were scarred and uncomfortable with the ball. We wouldn't attempt to build up an attack and instead just resorted to long balls 90% of the match. The few moments we actually pressed instead of sitting back we saw how vulnerable the City defense was and we actually looked dangerous. Point being we can sit back a soak up pressure and then attack on the counter but we need the right players to provide the link between our defense and attack. A midfield of Matic and Pogba works great because of how technical they are and their ability on the ball, Herrera seems to have forgotten how to play and is now completely useless. This is why Pogba is so important to the squad and it's been virtually impossible to replace him. Without Pogba we can't set up to counter as our attack will just never materialize, and thus we look like the team that showed up vs City and Chelsea.

 

[Rodrigo_UC10]

Having possession is not always the best tactic. When facing teams like City or Barcelona there's no point of trying to fight them for possession because they know how to move and play the ball around. But definitely, a team like United should not be just hoofing the ball up top. We got the players to move and play the ball forwards and make it count. I think that was a mistake by Jose, just telling their CB to kick the ball as far as away as possible and then expect the forwards to chase after it. We could have definitely played smarter and cause serious problems to city by actually playing proper football.

 

[laplacian]

Saying that a top class team needs to learn how to retain possession and move it properly to the opponents half is NOT the same as saying we should play possession based football. It's a strawman. Teams that specialize in counter-attacks are more than capable of retaining possession; Madrid, and Chelsea are good examples. Also even if OP was suggesting we should return to "possession-based" football it isn't the same that we should play like LVG did. Jesus it's like saying "oh we should play like Moyes then" when someone suggests that we need to be better in our crosses. Stop doing that. Stop avoiding the problems in Mourinho's team by accusing people of wanting to return to Moyes and LVG, it's annoying/

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Mourinho's biggest problem is his ego. It's almost as if the more the press talks about his negative tactics the more he wants to prove that they work. Same goes for Lukaku. The more people talk about how poor he has been, the more Mourinho talks him up. Has he ever pulled Lukaku from a game? I don't care if Lukaku is working hard. We didn't pay 90m for a modern day version of Heskey. At this point I would rather see Fallaini played as a striker. At least he is a real target man who can hold up play and has a good first touch...

 

[JohnnyKills]

Our biggest problem is a lack of footballers in the back four. Lindelof is still finding his feet so at the moment we're lining up with Valencia, Smalling, Rojo and Young at the back. None of them is great on the ball so it's easy to see why Jose's told them to go so direct.

Hopefully we get at least one new FB in soon, and with Lindelof we can start to build attacks.

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

I'm disgusted by Jose's tactical in first half that we just conceded more possession to City which means more possession more they take set pieces. When we have a ball, what we do? Hoofed ball to Lukaku with no supports when he receives the ball and not building up attacking play. Why would Lukaku do defensives duties? He wasn't supposed to do it in the first place and he's striker for a reason, it is his job to score a tap-in goal.

Why didn't we start the same thing in first half as we did in the second half? After 43 minutes we have more shot on target than City did in 43minutes to 90m when we started playing



City is killing everyone because of the possession, more possession, easier they can control the games in building up play and limit the opponents chance. PSG, City, Bayern Munich and Barcelona are one of the top sides in Europe due to dominant possession based that made them even stronger.


LVG would stop City right now and destroy them completely. LVG has a better record against top sides than Jose, even against top 10 sides at that time, when he was managers, he had a better record than Jose, Wenger, Pochettino and Klopp for top 10 sides. Can we appoint him as deputy managers that only play against top sides and leave rest of games to Jose against a lesser team and give Jose a budget to spend money on players in the transfer window?

it's fine that we should defend sometime but not set up tactically cowardly to defend and hoof balls to the big striker.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jose but I hate his tactical sometimes, it's not United way to be scared of their opponents. However, it's not player's fault that we lost a game to City because Jose told them to sit back and concede most of the possession to City and hoof balls and ask Lukaku to do his defensive duties in our box has already cost us a game, it made City looking like champions and we were looking like a relegated team fighting for a life. Yeah, I can blame Jose for that.

Yeah, I get it, Arsenal dominated possession and lost games but it is a one-off, we can't repeat every time we face top sides like Barca, PSG or even Bayern Munich.

That's some seriously wishful (and poor) thinking right there

 

[Bestietom]

According to José, it is better not to have the ball. Having the ball apparently makes you afraid and liable to make mistakes. If this is José's philosophy, why are we surprised?

Mourinho should be encouraging the players to keep the ball but we don't have the players with composure and close control to keep the ball. Mourinho would sooner have the whole team 7ft tall and built like the jolly green giant, if he could.

 

[Green_Red]

Its like people dont understand the reason defenders hoof is because when they not ball playing defenders theyre passing range is limited. Most of our defenders benefit from midfielders who can distribute the ball dropping deep and picking it up. When those players arent there the defender has no other option but to play it safe and aim for row z. Rojo does it near every game, hes not a passer of the ball and without Pogba coming deep to pick it up he gets shown up. Herrera is not a passer and neither is Matic. Its actually very simple if people would open their eyes.

 

[dichinero]

Mourinho should be encouraging the players to keep the ball but we don't have the players with composure and close control to keep the ball. Mourinho would sooner have the whole team 7ft tall and built like the jolly green giant, if he could.

Lol.

People can cry about how they want the next Neymar or KdB etc when the fact is we're more likely to be looking for the next Fellaini 2.0 and Young 2.0

 

[Siorac]

Getting the best out of our players doesn't correlate with being able to go toe on toe with KDB and Silva in possession battle if you have Matic and Herrera. Try to be realistic and honest with your self.

We didn't even go toe to toe with Ajax in the EL final. We had Pogba that day and we were facing a team where half the players were barely out of kindergarten.

That game - well, the entire EL run, really - showed that when it comes to important games, it will always be ugly with Mourinho. It's what he does.

 

[sunama]

I'd have taken 0-0 yesterday. Possession football + counter attacking was exactly what we needed yesterday. Sit back, safely circulate the ball in your own half draw them in, make them press.

They will either;
- sit back and let you gave in, in which case great, we are safe.
- push up together leaving room behind for our 4 very fast forward players to expose on the counter.

Even if we lose the ball we've got 6-8 men in our half to recover it. It's an approach without risk but it would deny City the choice to play thier favoured game.

To play Possession football, against a team who specialise in possession football is suicide.
In any case, it doesn't matter now. Game is done and we need to look forward.
At this moment in time, MCFC are simply a better team and have a better squad: man for man.

Pep inherited D.Silver, KDB and Aguerro.
When Jose arrived, he inherited DDG.
So lets not forget that MCFC have matched our spending, while starting with a better squad than ours.
Scholes said that it would take about 3 transfer windows (I think he meant Summer transfer windows), before Jose gets the team he wants and it certainly looks that way.
I'd give Jose next season and tell him that he must win the title at any cost.
This season, 2nd place would be considerable progression.

I also want to remind people that it will be 5 years since we won the title and we need to do everything in our powers not fall into the Liverpool trap. It's very easy for 5 years to become 10 years and then 20 years (with no title).

 

[sunama]

We didn't even go toe to toe with Ajax in the EL final. We had Pogba that day and we were facing a team where half the players were barely out of kindergarten.

That game was men against boys and for all those people on here who favour youth, over players in their prime, that game was a prime example of what happens when you go crazy for youth (or in Ajax's case - they sold all their senior players).

 

[Oyibo]

We all moaned and were heavily criticised for our 75% possession football under LVG,
due to lack of clear chances and sideways passing.

Once Mou came he promised to "get the ball forwarder quicker", and that i think he has done.

New left back, and stop playing Lukaku and Ibra together, would be an improvement.

 

[Infra-red]

Did he really say that? If so, I'm shocked.

It's from Diego Torres's biography of Mourinho. Mourinho apparently has a 7-point plan for winning big games:

1 The game is won by the team who commits fewer errors.

2 Football favours whoever provokes more errors in the opposition.

3 Away from home, instead of trying to be superior to the opposition, it’s better to encourage their mistakes.

4 Whoever has the ball is more likely to make a mistake.

5 Whoever renounces possession reduces the possibility of making a mistake.

6 Whoever has the ball has fear.

7 Whoever does not have it is thereby stronger.

 

[Williams1960]

Lukaku is currently undroppable according to Mourinho. That itself is a problem.

The better footballers like mata and mikhi are not working in this set up.

Lukaku is not a player that can make things happen himself but can be very useful in a better set up where he gets crosses in to him rather than long balls. Where he can then bully defenders.

At the moment, the long balls to him are poor and he can't do anything with them.

We would be better off playing fellaini in that role who wins more in the air.

We also need runners behind lukaku. We have to take some of the handbrakes off this side. Mou can't keep doing the same thing over and over and over. It's unappealing to watch and teams have worked it out.

 

[RooneyLegend]

We knew what we were getting when we hired him, the club sold its soul for magic beans.

 

[unitedforeveral]

I'll tell you why we are surprised. We're surprised because United chose Mourinho in spite of knowing about his past. The guy is a moron who is stubborn about his ways. The only talent which a manager has to have, there very basic talent is to recognize players in form and play them as per the opponents. I remember the days when Sir Alex had defenders play as a team to defeat Arsenal. We're United and we're always known for attacking football. Sir Alex liked to counter attack as well but he put the right players together in the right places.

We don't have to rebuild our team for the manager's sake. He has to manage and bring the best out of them. Media mind games, talking about playing 9 forwards and 1 defender at Anfield and doing the complete opposite. Sitting ducks at Chelsea, SB. We did a number on Spurs but I'm still not convinced Mourinho is the right man for Us. Bearing in mind he was our best option, we got him in. His games are so boring and tactically super boring. Long balls bro.

Shaw, MkhiT, Depay, Sweinsteiger, sometimes Rashford and Martial arts all wasting minutes because he cannot make proper decisions in terms of possession football. He needs quick passes and finish and get back and defend. I think we expect Barcelona kind of football, 700 avg passes and more touches in the box.

As long as that happens, win or lose. We're going cheer loud and proud but if we keep playing shameful boring long ball football. It time to throw the curtains for the main man.

I do not think Jose I bad but I think his idealogy of football is wrong.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Lukaku is currently undroppable according to Mourinho. That itself is a problem.

The better footballers like mata and mikhi are not working in this set up.

Lukaku is not a player that can make things happen himself but can be very useful in a better set up where he gets crosses in to him rather than long balls. Where he can then bully defenders.

At the moment, the long balls to him are poor and he can't do anything with them.

We would be better off playing fellaini in that role who wins more in the air.

We also need runners behind lukaku. We have to take some of the handbrakes off this side. Mou can't keep doing the same thing over and over and over. It's unappealing to watch and teams have worked it out.

Agree massively. Our setup is so counter productive to Lukaku's skillset - if Young/Shaw were our RB/LB and we played a more possession based game it would be great. Lots of crosses and recycling the ball back into wide areas for more crosses. Then you have the ability to play on the break where possible with Martial/Rashford in the side.

As it is, we don't really cross the ball and without Pogba have no link between midfield and attack so it's a case of being solid defensively and then hoofing the ball up to a big, relatively in-agile forward who is short on confidence and who has a very debatable touch. He's usually got 3 men on him (no exaggeration) so back comes the ball and we're back under pressure.

I feel something has to give for us to reach the next level - either we change our system to suit Lukaku better or he is dropped and Martial or Rashford plays as a No9.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I'll tell you why we are surprised. We're surprised because United chose Mourinho in spite of knowing about his past. The guy is a moron who is stubborn about his ways. The only talent which a manager has to have, there very basic talent is to recognize players in form and play them as per the opponents. I remember the days when Sir Alex had defenders play as a team to defeat Arsenal. We're United and we're always known for attacking football. Sir Alex liked to counter attack as well but he put the right players together in the right places.

We don't have to rebuild our team for the manager's sake. He has to manage and bring the best out of them. Media mind games, talking about playing 9 forwards and 1 defender at Anfield and doing the complete opposite. Sitting ducks at Chelsea, SB. We did a number on Spurs but I'm still not convinced Mourinho is the right man for Us. Bearing in mind he was our best option, we got him in. His games are so boring and tactically super boring. Long balls bro.

Shaw, MkhiT, Depay, Sweinsteiger, sometimes Rashford and Martial arts all wasting minutes because he cannot make proper decisions in terms of possession football. He needs quick passes and finish and get back and defend. I think we expect Barcelona kind of football, 700 avg passes and more touches in the box.

As long as that happens, win or lose. We're going cheer loud and proud but if we keep playing shameful boring long ball football. It time to throw the curtains for the main man.

I do not think Jose I bad but I think his idealogy of football is wrong.

You realise we're second in the PL and into the CL knockouts for the first time in too long??

Yes, Man City was a shocker and there are some issues to iron out but calling for Mou's head...RIP redcafe

 

[Raees]

Really concerning how alot of posters don't seem to see any issue with our approach to keeping the ball. We are probably the worst top side in europe on that front and it shows badly when we play in these big games and yet it is all okay and we just need to make a few signings like another 6ft 4 player in Savic and suddenly we will be able to keep the ball against better sides.

It doesn't work like that at all. As for bringing up LVG, his mantra of just keeping the ball with sterile passes is not the modern approach either.. we even made keeping the ball look outdated. Nor were his holland team that good at keeping the ball either.

 

[The Respectful Blue]

You realise we're second in the PL and into the CL knockouts for the first time in too long??

Yes, Man City was a shocker and there are some issues to iron out but calling for Mou's head...RIP redcafe

Yes you are in second place sat on top of the chasing pack and you sailed through the group stages of the CL. In any other season you'd be top of the lot right now with your point tally (and everyone knows this because it's strikingly obvious), the only reason that you're not in top spot is that Pep has a much more effective and attractive system of play that highlights Jose's tactical limitations by comparison.
I think his point was that Jose's past successes are not relevant in this day and age because systems of play develop and change constantly as understanding of the game and how to get the best out of players improves year on year.
I think Jose can change, can improve, can compete with Pep but only if he can change his stubborn attitude and be braver in his approach. He needs to grow a pair & produce some magic and that's something that all fans of good football would wish for, even supporters of your rivals who want t see their team compete against the very best, as I do.

 

[red_devil83]

We dominate possession most matches. We are going to struggle to keep possession against City.

I think it's the fact that we just admit defeat on this before we even begin that annoys people. At least try to play against them

 

[ROFLUTION]

Under Fergie vs Barca, Chelsea, Roma, big games in the league we pretty much went 4-5-1 and waited for the counter.

No one was moaning as much as now. We even have a worse player-material now - this is an allright tactic - it'll work again soon and we'll perfect it, probably in the CL and then people will praise the tactics again.

 

[ghagua]

Possession football does not have to be the same shite that we witnessed under LvG. Exciting possession football is what City, Liverpool and Spurs play. As for not having the right players to play that system, well it's about fecking time we signed them then. We will have fans complaining about City's spending while they dominate the English game and we play hoof ball because poor us are paupers without any spending power.

 

[MZX7]

it's Jose's philosophy that is holding United from achieving to its full potential against top sides. When we do against mid/bottom team, it highlights how United can be dangerous when going forward, we have scored 4+ or more in 6 games out of 16 games against, two games more than City, all of 4+ coming from West Ham, Everton, Newcastle, Swansea, Crystal Palace and Watford, that's 6 teams out of 11 mid/bottom teams mid/bottom we faced. it's not rocket science, we can cause a lot of trouble to top sides instead of letting them playing and let them have a ball and sit back.

Only if Pogba was available and in form though...

 

[Siorac]

That game was men against boys and for all those people on here who favour youth, over players in their prime, that game was a prime example of what happens when you go crazy for youth (or in Ajax's case - they sold all their senior players).

And yet they still had 70% possession, 17 shots against our 7 - even though we were the better, more experienced team, we still played very defensively, launched long balls towards Fellaini and waited for their mistakes throughout the game. Which is why it's obvious that Mourinho will probably never attempt to actually go out and take the game to the opponent in an important game. Not anymore.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yes you are in second place sat on top of the chasing pack and you sailed through the group stages of the CL. In any other season you'd be top of the lot right now with your point tally (and everyone knows this because it's strikingly obvious), the only reason that you're not in top spot is that Pep has a much more effective and attractive system of play that highlights Jose's tactical limitations by comparison.
I think his point was that Jose's past successes are not relevant in this day and age because systems of play develop and change constantly as understanding of the game and how to get the best out of players improves year on year.
I think Jose can change, can improve, can compete with Pep but only if he can change his stubborn attitude and be braver in his approach. He needs to grow a pair & produce some magic and that's something that all fans of good football would wish for, even supporters of your rivals who want t see their team compete against the very best, as I do.

I feel like this is an overreaction following a disappointing loss.

Yes you are in second place sat on top of the chasing pack and you sailed through the group stages of the CL. In any other season you'd be top of the lot right now with your point tally (and everyone knows this because it's strikingly obvious), the only reason that you're not in top spot is that Pep has a much more effective and attractive system of play that highlights Jose's tactical limitations by comparison.

Pep has the best squad. I assume most people agree on that. He also had a very good squad last year yet his style of football wasn't exactly blowing people away - it's because he has the financial power to bring in any player he wants that City have improved. Yes, Jose also has financial power but I don't buy it for a second that Pep's style of play is the sole reason for this upturn in form, it's about having the best players.

If you look at Sunday's loss objectively, without Pogba in the team we don't really have anyone else in the CM good enough to play more expansively so it was probably the wisest (if not most popular) decision to play as we did. Pep has Gundogan and B Silva waiting in the wings - both would probably have started for us. Aguero (arguably the best striker in the PL) was on the bench... that just shows the difference.

I think his point was that Jose's past successes are not relevant in this day and age because systems of play develop and change constantly as understanding of the game and how to get the best out of players improves year on year.

Guardiola is very outspoken in his refusal to change his tactics. He believes in playing in a certain way and whilst there are sometimes very small tweaks in his system (like when he once played Silva up top as a false nine) the philosophy remains the constant. I remember he once tried something revolutionary in the Bayern/Barca game which was a disaster and he abandoned it after 15mins. I actually agree with your point in general but Pep is not a good example and ironically Mourinho is the one best known for tactical variety. Additionally, although a minor point given they're not major titles, Jose won 3 trophies last year to Pep's 0. Past successes always mean something and they are the two most successful managers of the current era.


There are things about Mou's approach that I would like to see change but to dismiss him as a manager is very naive IMO. Pep is the media's darling atm and should take the plaudits because City look set to break the winning run record and will no doubt win the Prem but let's stay realistic please.

 

[Raees]

What makes it worse is that most elite sides fall into the following tiers.. brilliant at keeping the ball, excellent at keeping the ball and then solid at keeping the ball (Chelsea and Atletico are solid with the ball, they also have a more counter-attacking philosophy but they don't look lazy, or have silly poor touches or make wrong passes.. they keep the ball well with short, sharp and incisive passing), we are actually incompetent at keeping the ball for any length of time in difficult games. We have a very low bottom level when it comes to keeping the ball and it is utterly unacceptable for a club this size, the money it spends for it to be like that.

Thing is it isn't even a traditionally Jose trait to be incompetent in possession as he used to preach the benefits of 'resting in possession' and his Porto sides and his first Chelsea side were excellent at keeping the ball. They were efficient but skilled at moving the ball against any level of opponent.. hence they could counter at will against sides like Barca. Inter had this too.

It is the time at Madrid, where he built up this hatred of anything possession and this desire to create his own brand of football and at Chelsea, he had to strike a balance between Roman's desires and his own. Bit by bit, he's moved further along the extremes of physical and defensive football and being mentally tough/ready to die for him comes first and he's lost the balance he once had. Worst thing is that he came to a club whose foundations were at rock bottom in terms of keeping the ball in a more modern style.. we had last few years of Fergie, where it was get it to RVP and then Moyes. Van Gaal tried to introduce possession, but his brand of possession was from an era ago and he had lost his own touch or perhaps he was just lucky with Ajax in the 90's to have great players at his disposal who could make zzz possession look exciting.

The game is slipping away from this approach of counter-first, a more proactive game has always been the more successful philosophy in any era but especially now where even average joe sides seem to be able to keep the ball exceptionally well ala Napoli if coached well.

We generally since last few years of Fergie, look the most clueless top side when it comes to just effortlessly keeping the ball for long periods.. we either do it at home v smaller sides, or if we're losing and need to get a goal back. Outside of that, we look to stay solid and make it look a real effort to play a fluent brand of football in away conditions or if we're up against a technically superior side.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

http://whitehouseaddress.blogspot.com.au/2017/12/educating-decision-making.html?m=1

Again. Read.

 

[Siorac]

Yes you are in second place sat on top of the chasing pack and you sailed through the group stages of the CL. In any other season you'd be top of the lot right now with your point tally (and everyone knows this because it's strikingly obvious)

Well, the strikingly obvious assumption is actually wrong in this case. We have 35 points after 16 games. Out of the last ten seasons, the same tally would have been enough for:
- top spot in 2010/11
- joint top in 2013/14 and 2015/16
- second: 2009/10, 2012/13, 2016/17
- third: 2007/08, 2008/09, 2011/12, 2014/15

Statistically, in four out of the last ten seasons (40% of the time, in other words) our performance would have been enough for no more than third place.

(in fairness, I did not replace the actual Manchester United with this hypothetical one in the historical tables; if you do that, it looks a bit different. But even if you do that, in the majority of cases 35 points would only be enough for second place)

 

[The Respectful Blue]

I feel like this is an overreaction following a disappointing loss.

Yes you are in second place sat on top of the chasing pack and you sailed through the group stages of the CL. In any other season you'd be top of the lot right now with your point tally (and everyone knows this because it's strikingly obvious), the only reason that you're not in top spot is that Pep has a much more effective and attractive system of play that highlights Jose's tactical limitations by comparison.

Pep has the best squad. I assume most people agree on that. He also had a very good squad last year yet his style of football wasn't exactly blowing people away - it's because he has the financial power to bring in any player he wants that City have improved. Yes, Jose also has financial power but I don't buy it for a second that Pep's style of play is the sole reason for this upturn in form, it's about having the best players.

If you look at Sunday's loss objectively, without Pogba in the team we don't really have anyone else in the CM good enough to play more expansively so it was probably the wisest (if not most popular) decision to play as we did. Pep has Gundogan and B Silva waiting in the wings - both would probably have started for us. Aguero (arguably the best striker in the PL) was on the bench... that just shows the difference.

I think his point was that Jose's past successes are not relevant in this day and age because systems of play develop and change constantly as understanding of the game and how to get the best out of players improves year on year.

Guardiola is very outspoken in his refusal to change his tactics. He believes in playing in a certain way and whilst there are sometimes very small tweaks in his system (like when he once played Silva up top as a false nine) the philosophy remains the constant. I remember he once tried something revolutionary in the Bayern/Barca game which was a disaster and he abandoned it after 15mins. I actually agree with your point in general but Pep is not a good example and ironically Mourinho is the one best known for tactical variety. Additionally, although a minor point given they're not major titles, Jose won 3 trophies last year to Pep's 0. Past successes always mean something and they are the two most successful managers of the current era.


There are things about Mou's approach that I would like to see change but to dismiss him as a manager is very naive IMO. Pep is the media's darling atm and should take the plaudits because City look set to break the winning run record and will no doubt win the Prem but let's stay realistic please.

Firstly thanks for the very reasoned response. You've made me think and I'll try to explain myself a little better.
IMO it's not about spend. United have spent quite similarly to City across the last few seasons (sales + purchases) and both Pep and Jose have had the same number of windows. Indeed United would have spent more if certain of their more fancied players had been available (eg. Griezman?), so it's not as if you don't have the funds available or the willingness to spend. City complies with FFP so only spends within it's the constraints of it's turnover and United have a larger turnover so can outspend City whenever they like.
I don't think that City have the best squad per se, I think their system of play compliments their players and therby shows them at their best. City's players wouldn't look like world beaters playing under Mourinho's system of play - they're not big enough, for starters.
United's squad wouldn't look as good playing City's system because they aren't the right payers for that system. As example; DeGea, who's probably the best keeper in the world at the moment, couldn't replace Ederson because DeGea simply isn't good enough with his feet - you'd have more chance of one of your outfield players usurping Ederson!

I think that United's players would look as good as City's if the United system of play was better suited to them. As example; Lukaku is a brilliant striker - you paid £75M + Wayne Rooney (worth at least £25M in this market) so that makes him a £100M striker and I recon he was worth it if used correctly. He can be deadly but he needs to receive the ball and he needs players running through so that he has the choice of holding up play or turning the defender. Without that support he's starved of opportunity and he's predictable when he does get the ball because he's on his lonesome. In the right system of play he'd be hitting 30+ goals a season in the PL alone.
As I mentioned earlier, you're having a great season by any standard and in previous years you'd be top - not much wrong with a squad that can do that eh? United just look pale compared to City, who're setting records so far this season, and the difference between United and City is that Jose can't seem to deduce a system to suit the payers he's bought himself. Didn't he know what Lukaku was good at and what made him good at it before he gave Ed the nod? Wasn't it obvious to him that Lukaku's space on the pitch is from the halfway line to the opposition goal line? He's a massive guy and, apart from the fact that he's a danger to himself in his own six yard area, he just too big and heavy to go sprinting from goalmouth to goalmouth - it's like buying a fish and wondering why it doesn't thrive as it ought in a rabbit hutch.

On the topic of Aguero [on the bench], he's had to change how he plays to fit into Pep's system and he was on the bench because Jesus is slightly better in the press as yet. If Aguero hadn't changed and started pressing then he'd have gone because Pep needs strikers who press like maniacs and Aguero not doing that would leave a hole in City's press and ergo a hole in City's defence.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Firstly thanks for the very reasoned response. You've made me think and I'll try to explain myself a little better.
IMO it's not about spend. United have spent quite similarly to City across the last few seasons (sales + purchases) and both Pep and Jose have had the same number of windows. Indeed United would have spent more if certain of their more fancied players had been available (eg. Griezman?), so it's not as if you don't have the funds available or the willingness to spend. City complies with FFP so only spends within it's the constraints of it's turnover and United have a larger turnover so can outspend City whenever they like.
I don't think that City have the best squad per se, I think their system of play compliments their players and therby shows them at their best. City's players wouldn't look like world beaters playing under Mourinho's system of play - they're not big enough, for starters.
United's squad wouldn't look as good playing City's system because they aren't the right payers for that system. As example; DeGea, who's probably the best keeper in the world at the moment, couldn't replace Ederson because DeGea simply isn't good enough with his feet - you'd have more chance of one of your outfield players usurping Ederson!

I think that United's players would look as good as City's if the United system of play was better suited to them. As example; Lukaku is a brilliant striker - you paid £75M + Wayne Rooney (worth at least £25M in this market) so that makes him a £100M striker and I recon he was worth it if used correctly. He can be deadly but he needs to receive the ball and he needs players running through so that he has the choice of holding up play or turning the defender. Without that support he's starved of opportunity and he's predictable when he does get the ball because he's on his lonesome. In the right system of play he'd be hitting 30+ goals a season in the PL alone.
As I mentioned earlier, you're having a great season by any standard and in previous years you'd be top - not much wrong with a squad that can do that eh? United just look pale compared to City, who're setting records so far this season, and the difference between United and City is that Jose can't seem to deduce a system to suit the payers he's bought himself. Didn't he know what Lukaku was good at and what made him good at it before he gave Ed the nod? Wasn't it obvious to him that Lukaku's space on the pitch is from the halfway line to the opposition goal line? He's a massive guy and, apart from the fact that he's a danger to himself in his own six yard area, he just too big and heavy to go sprinting from goalmouth to goalmouth - it's like buying a fish and wondering why it doesn't thrive as it ought in a rabbit hutch.

On the topic of Aguero [on the bench], he's had to change how he plays to fit into Pep's system and he was on the bench because Jesus is slightly better in the press as yet. If Aguero hadn't changed and started pressing then he'd have gone because Pep needs strikers who press like maniacs and Aguero not doing that would leave a hole in City's press and ergo a hole in City's defence.

Appreciate the response and that is clearer. I do think City have the best squad though - by a long way.

In terms of being behind regarding transfer windows I mean more that the squads Jose and Pep both inherited were very different - Man City had less to change to suit Pep's style and I get the feeling Mou still wants to sign a number of players across a range of positions. I also still think a lot of it is about spending power (and this is not just re City/United but football in general) as who knows how Spurs/LPool/Ars would be doing if their respective managers had £300m to splash in a couple of season for example. I guess we'll probably never know.

On Lukaku I feel he's just not as good as Jose thought he was - he's a good all rounder but isn't great at anything tbh. At the moment i feel that's an average signing rather than a player Jose needs to accommodate - I'd rather he accommodate Martial as a 9 and play Rashford LW. I feel Martial is superior in just about every aspect but that's irrelevant.

FYI I love your metaphor for Lukaku the fish!

 

[Oneunited26]

Appreciate the response and that is clearer. I do think City have the best squad though - by a long way.

In terms of being behind regarding transfer windows I mean more that the squads Jose and Pep both inherited were very different - Man City had less to change to suit Pep's style and I get the feeling Mou still wants to sign a number of players across a range of positions. I also still think a lot of it is about spending power (and this is not just re City/United but football in general) as who knows how Spurs/LPool/Ars would be doing if their respective managers had £300m to splash in a couple of season for example. I guess we'll probably never know.

On Lukaku I feel he's just not as good as Jose thought he was - he's a good all rounder but isn't great at anything tbh. At the moment i feel that's an average signing rather than a player Jose needs to accommodate - I'd rather he accommodate Martial as a 9 and play Rashford LW. I feel Martial is superior in just about every aspect but that's irrelevant.

FYI I love your metaphor for Lukaku the fish!

Obvious they do, but when we fielding valencia, young, herrera, lingard and lukaku, its not a team that says yeah that's the team to beat. Yes valencia has been good, but looking forward he's not someone who I would want in the team every week, and even if we move these players on, PPL bitched about rooney, we replace him which looks to be an even inferior striker, oh this sums up our transfer record since summer 2009