More possession would work with United, not hoofing ball

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by deafepl, Dec 11, 2017.

  1. Dec 11, 2017
    #1

    deafepl New Member

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    I'm disgusted by Jose's tactical in first half that we just conceded more possession to City which means more possession more they take set pieces. When we have a ball, what we do? Hoofed ball to Lukaku with no supports when he receives the ball and not building up attacking play. Why would Lukaku do defensives duties? He wasn't supposed to do it in the first place and he's striker for a reason, it is his job to score a tap-in goal.

    Why didn't we start the same thing in first half as we did in the second half? After 43 minutes we have more shot on target than City did in 43minutes to 90m when we started playing



    City is killing everyone because of the possession, more possession, easier they can control the games in building up play and limit the opponents chance. PSG, City, Bayern Munich and Barcelona are one of the top sides in Europe due to dominant possession based that made them even stronger.


    LVG would stop City right now and destroy them completely. LVG has a better record against top sides than Jose, even against top 10 sides at that time, when he was managers, he had a better record than Jose, Wenger, Pochettino and Klopp for top 10 sides. Can we appoint him as deputy managers that only play against top sides and leave rest of games to Jose against a lesser team and give Jose a budget to spend money on players in the transfer window?

    it's fine that we should defend sometime but not set up tactically cowardly to defend and hoof balls to the big striker.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Jose but I hate his tactical sometimes, it's not United way to be scared of their opponents. However, it's not player's fault that we lost a game to City because Jose told them to sit back and concede most of the possession to City and hoof balls and ask Lukaku to do his defensive duties in our box has already cost us a game, it made City looking like champions and we were looking like a relegated team fighting for a life. Yeah, I can blame Jose for that.

    Yeah, I get it, Arsenal dominated possession and lost games but it is a one-off, we can't repeat every time we face top sides like Barca, PSG or even Bayern Munich.
  2. Dec 11, 2017
    #2

    dichinero New Member

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    According to José, it is better not to have the ball. Having the ball apparently makes you afraid and liable to make mistakes. If this is José's philosophy, why are we surprised?
  3. Dec 11, 2017
    #3

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Of course he would.
  4. Dec 11, 2017
    #4

    deafepl New Member

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    it's Jose's philosophy that is holding United from achieving to its full potential against top sides. When we do against mid/bottom team, it highlights how United can be dangerous when going forward, we have scored 4+ or more in 6 games out of 16 games against, two games more than City, all of 4+ coming from West Ham, Everton, Newcastle, Swansea, Crystal Palace and Watford, that's 6 teams out of 11 mid/bottom teams mid/bottom we faced. it's not rocket science, we can cause a lot of trouble to top sides instead of letting them playing and let them have a ball and sit back.
  5. Dec 11, 2017
    #5

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    We played 'possession football' under LVG and it was some of the most boring rubbish I've ever seen. I think at one point we drew 0-0 4 or 5 times in a row. Plus we were less successful by most measures.

    No thank you.
  6. Dec 11, 2017
    #6

    notcool New Member

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    People have bad memories. Conte won the league playing counter-attack football, Ranieri the year before and Jose himself the year before that. But nooo, possession is all that matters because it's all that's in front of our eyes right now. Even the PL isn't this bad: they say football started in 1992, you guys think football didn't exist before 2017.

    And there are lots of example of counter-attacking working in the CL: PSG against Barca last season, Bayern Munich against Barca in 2013. And let's look at the possession king himself, Pep. Atletico put his Bayern team out in 2016. How? Couple of quick counters and goals from a certain Mr. Antoine Griezmann. Looked a good little player. Maybe we could buy him and get him to do the same for us. Real Madrid put our Bayern in 2014. Yeah, apparently Cristiano Ronaldo and Bale are pretty good on the break. Fancy that. For feck's sake, even Barcelona in 2015 went to the Allianz and counter-attacked. They parked the bus and even Messi was tracking back.

    A whole style of football has not become obsolete.
  7. Dec 11, 2017
    #7

    deafepl New Member

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    Pep and Heynckes like playing based possession, they are really good at it, LVG couldn't. LVG need high-quality players that'll adapt to his philosophy, he is failed managers because all of his players are not living to its price tag and have been flopped. It is the same thing about Pep's last season compared to now. Pep is killing the season. LVG and Pep's philosophy are very similar but Pep is an attacking-minded coach.
  8. Dec 11, 2017
    #8

    notcool New Member

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    And how many of those goals came on the counter-attack? All of them or just most of them?

    We were complaining about possession 2 seasons ago, now we're complaining about the opposite. Fact is, both of them can be effective and both can be entertaining.
  9. Dec 11, 2017
    #9

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    We dominate possession most matches. We are going to struggle to keep possession against City.
  10. Dec 11, 2017
    #10

    deafepl New Member

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    Yeah, like Arsenal games but it is once off and can't repeat every time we face top sides, counter-attacking is incontinent. It would work for UCL but not in the league, you have to face team every week and repeat same counter-attacking performance?. Sometimes we need to control the games, that's why possession based is better and play counter-attacking when its necessary. City with attacking poossession based is breaking a lot of record in the league. Had it Lecister City 2015-16 and Conte's Chelsea 2016-17 been in this season, they wouldn't stop this City side winning the league.
  11. Dec 11, 2017
    #11

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    Basically, people like to moan...

    What's been more effective for us in recent years? This season will prove to be our best.
  12. Dec 11, 2017
    #12

    VancouverUtdFan New Member

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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  13. Dec 11, 2017
    #13

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    It's less about possession/counter attacking football and more about the quality of our attacking play. You can be more direct and dominate, and you can have a lot of possession and be sterile. When I say that we played like wimps, it's not merely that we sat deep at Old Trafford (although that's a bit shit in itself). It's also that we played with no semblence of quality when we got the ball. We played more like you'd expect West Ham to play rather than a team that's spent bazillions. We resorted to archaic, cautious, drab football against them like we did against Liverpool. Chelsea was less cautious but also poor.
  14. Dec 11, 2017
    #14

    notcool New Member

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    It's necessary to play counter-attacking football against City. Same against Arsenal and Liverpool. Chelsea and Spurs we can go 50-50 with in terms of possession. And why does City doing so well this season mean possession is so important? Can't it be that they're just a very good team? Jose got 100 points at Real Madrid, btw.
  15. Dec 11, 2017
    #15

    Theonas Full Member Scout

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    Well said.
  16. Dec 11, 2017
    #16

    simonhch Horrible boss

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    Is this a late play for the RedCafe 2017 Awards Worst Thread trophy?
  17. Dec 11, 2017
    #17

    LeftyBlaster Full Member

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    Well he did actually do it. Without Pogba. Without hoofing the ball. Did it to Arsenal too in far more convincing fashion.
  18. Dec 11, 2017
    #18

    AN17 Full Member

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    @Fridge chutney @notcool

    Nothing wrong with the essence of what the OP was trying to say. Just because lvg's rigid system bore us to death with sideways safe passin, doesn't mean it cannot be modified to a more attacking fluid system.

    Even if we accept the fact that Jose is not likely to change at this point to a possesion based system, is it too much to ask of a Man United team to stop acting like they've come into contact with a live grenade every time they come into contact with the ball. Is it too much to ask for the defenders to build the game from the back rather than punting it up with no pressure on them ? To show a tiny bit of composure and creativity to find through ball and quick one two passing once in a while rather than aimlessly cross into the box ? Stop using hyperbole and shout every reasoned arguement as people moaning about nothing.
  19. Dec 11, 2017
    #19

    deafepl New Member

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    I acknowledged that City are really good teams but I don't think they would achieve without Pep's philosophy possession attacking. I was pointing out that less possession meaning it limits our chance and build play up. Jose doesn't care about it, that's one of a reason why he has a poor record against top sides. Why would we allow City to dominate possession 75% in first half and wait for counter-attacking at Old trafford? We sure don't look like a counter-attacking cos we hoofed ball for 43 minutes with no build play up from the back, we can hardly make a third pass or more pass without losing possession.
  20. Dec 11, 2017
    #20

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    I was not using hyperbole, Mr. "Live grenade"... nor did I shout. I pointed out that last time we played possession football we were both worse from a results and entertainment perspective.

    I am not getting worked up about today. We lost to a club that is likely to win the league. We were also missing our best player as well as our best 2 CBs. If we end up second best it is still an improvement for this post-SAF era we are living.
  21. Dec 11, 2017
    #21

    notcool New Member

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    I didn't say possession was bad, I said counter-attacking wasn't.

    You can still play good football in a counter-attacking system e.g. Spurs against Real Madrid.
  22. Dec 11, 2017
    #22

    notcool New Member

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    I don't see why. We can counter-attack and still have a lot of chances. See a lot of our chances this season.
    His record stretching back to 2000?
    Because it can be effective.
    But we've done well all season playing counter-attacking football.
  23. Dec 11, 2017
    #23

    Abhinav Full Member

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    I think people are just caught up in the emotion of the derby defeat. If the team was playing cowardly till 43 minutes and after that started playing aggressively, then what made them change? I am sure it was not the manager suddenly turning the switch and asking his team to play. The fact is, we had a reasonable plan and tactic that the team was not able to execute as they got overwhelmed by the situation. The defensive part of the plan would have worked if not for 2 really bad individual mistakes. The offensive plan, keeping in mind Pogba's absence, made sense as we all knew that we would not make in-roads through the middle of the park. It was either through directed long balls and picking up the attacking play through second balls, or attacking through the wings. Unfortunately, our defenders were guilty of panicking and hoofing the ball aimlessly and our forwards, especially Lukaku, had a mare and couldn't hold up the ball to bring others into play.
  24. Dec 11, 2017
    #24

    AN17 Full Member

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    Apologies if I came across as hostile. Wasn't my intention.

    We missed Pogba,yes. We missed his ability to quickly transition from defence to attack. We missed our best CBs. But tell me, would having any of them changed the way we set up our play yesterday ? Don't think so. We may have defended a little better for those corners. Maybe not. We may have been a bit more successful in creating meaningful chances. But the general play would still have been poor because our players are told to get behind the ball and keep the shape, restrict the opposition rather than get on it and make it a contest. I was exasperated at how the likes of Otamendi and Fernandhino were carrying the ball from midfield into our box while our best attacking talents were busy tracking back. Our apprach is flawed imo.
  25. Dec 11, 2017
    #25

    AN17 Full Member

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    We weren't counter attacking yesterday. We lumped it forward and chased shadows. You need to be good on the ball in a counter attacking system even more than a possession based system because you see very little of the ball and the chance comes and goes quickly. When it comes you have to take it. But with us it's like we have no idea how to string two passes together.
  26. Dec 11, 2017
    #26

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    I disagree. I think individually we were very poor today. But given that we are genuinely much better with Pogba, if anything, today demonstrated we need to reinforce his position with adequate backup. If we don't have anyone who can transition defense to attack like him, that's a problem when he's not playing.
  27. Dec 11, 2017
    #27

    ti vu Full Member

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    Even our off form, bad day at office forwards were able to threatening City on counter several times. With an improved midfielder, passer who can find the pass for them there would be more chance. Our approach is flawed because we lost the game. Bar the mistake, the game was pretty much balance. City looks lively but it's not like something we couldn't handle when City unlike their usual self, found themselves stifled by our counter press and made mistake. Their approach was as flawed as ours.

    So due to we lack Pogba who carries the ball through midfielder and needed to bypass midfield battle due to the obvious reason, we're not counter attacking? Being ruthless and collective is one thing. Counter attacking team is better as ball retaining is nonsense. If you are that better at possession recycling, why would you concede in possession battle? Do you actually believe what you just wrote?
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  28. Dec 11, 2017
    #28

    Giggs86 Full Member

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    It's not about possession but about what you do with the ball while you have it in your possession. You can have the ball 75% of the time and have zero shots on target (hi Louis) or you can have the ball 30% of the time and win games by being clinical and organized.
    Possession has become a useless stat.
  29. Dec 11, 2017
    #29

    notcool New Member

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    Why criticise counter-attacking then?
  30. Dec 11, 2017
    #30

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    Rubbish thread. We lost night because we gifted two goals away and missed by far the best chance of the game. It had feck all to do with having possession. We should be more concerned about using possession better than hogging it. We have to put more quality in our transition play. Which is were we are behind both City and Pool.
  31. Dec 11, 2017
    #31

    AN17 Full Member

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    Where did I criticise counter attacking ? The criticism in most parts is towards hoofing the ball aimlessly and treating it as some explosive device. We need to be better on the ball.
  32. Dec 11, 2017
    #32

    ti vu Full Member

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    Spot on. It's not about tactic, approach or whatever this game. It's that we lost our most creative player. Lukaku & Rashford had bad games while Martial without the support from Pogba can be restricted by City man marking & pressing into not having enough ball to play. Lingard did well within reasonable expectation but expecting world class performance from him is unrealistic. Still if not for our own mistake, the game was pretty balance, and we did create enough to get result (Chelsea at times created less, especially last season, yet ended up winning the game)
  33. Dec 11, 2017
    #33

    AN17 Full Member

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    @ti vu
    You have got to be kidding me.

    Counter press? What counter press ? When their CBs and DM carries ball into our box, who were we pressing then ?
  34. Dec 11, 2017
    #34

    AN17 Full Member

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    Pogba have never been a controller of midfield. His presence alone has never been enough to dictate the game. We missed his creativity for sure, but his presence wouldn't have stopped the other 9 outfield players to change the approach of defending deep and hoofing it from the back.
  35. Dec 11, 2017
    #35

    ti vu Full Member

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    So we never pressed this game and couldn't won possession in City half at all IMO? So City players never went down in their half or even in their own box trying to earn a soft freekick to get away from our players breathing on their neck Go rewatch the game...
  36. Dec 11, 2017
    #36

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    You should learn to read arguments more carefully. Where did I say "controller of midfield"? I specifically said that Pogba would have helped us transition from defense to attack, which he has demonstrably done all season. This would have reduced our reliance on the long-ball over top of City's midfield.

    With Pogba this season we average 2.75 points per game. Without him it drops to 1.6. With him we score more, pass more, and create more chances when he plays. We missed him today, that is irrefutable.
  37. Dec 11, 2017
    #37

    iluvoursolskjær Full Member

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    I’ve absolutely no problem with the fundamentals of Mou’s philosophy. But my god our possession is ridiculous and it’s an issue I’ve had since day one. Dunno if anyone noticed, but that thing we did when we just hoofed it aimlessly after 2-3 sideways passes - we’ve always done that against any decent pressing side. It’s embarassing.

    Pogba literally makes us look better than we are in moving the ball cos he’s literally that good.

    I’m not even mad after the game, cos I expected city to dominate the game. It’s just annoying to see Manchester United scared to play football.
  38. Dec 11, 2017
    #38

    Green_Red Full Member

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    Has to be RedCafe comment of 2017... Who would have ever thought someone would compare anyone to LVG and come out of it negatively. Meltdown complete.
  39. Dec 11, 2017
    #39

    AN17 Full Member

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    No, thank you.One time was more than enough.. I wouldn't watch it again even if we had managed to win it with 2 jammy late goals.

    We pressed them and on a few rare occasion we manged to steal the ball, we lost it as quickly as we won it. But for me majority of the game was characterised by them running at us and our players retreating like outnumbered soldiers on a battle field.
  40. Dec 11, 2017
    #40

    ti vu Full Member

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    So you refused to face evidence but insistence on. We may not win the ball as many times as we want or make best use of the possession, but we clearly not rarely press during game. You are back tracking.

    Your intially logic was because one team find a way for their more defensive oriented players to move up the pitch, the other team doesn't press. Even against team like L'pool or Tottenham or Arsenal who are praised for their use of possession & pressing, City can still push their defensive players up the pitch from time to time. Perhaps, they don't do pressing either? You can keep straight face to come back into this discussion after wildly throwing argument like this, I'll have to commend you for the bravery. Agree to disagree. Peace