Yeah this is true which is why I would never want him as a long term coach at United. At Chelsea even in the League Cup he would always play his first team.
Mourinho | New old Chelsea manager
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Not to mention the numerous chances he gave the troublesome Mario Balotelli, even at the very latter stages of the Champions League.
After selling Ibra he invested heavily in that team and even though they totally outplayed Barca in the first leg the 2nd leg if it had not been for a wrongly disallowed goal they were out. I do wonder if Barca hadn't been forced to travel by train whether the first leg result would of been different but anyhow it was a great performance
Julio Cesar
Zanetti
Lucio
Maicon
Samuel
Chivu
Sneijder
Cambiasso
Eto'o
Milito
Pandev
That was his team for the final, top class players all over so not like he had some average team he took to the final. They then got taken over by Benetiz who worked his magic in fecking it all up which is why they are such a bad side now. The only way was down from winning that CL so he got out as soon as he could and when they win La liga he will get out again this season.
I'm not saying I don't rate the guy, easily one of the top 3 managers in world football but lets not go overboard, since his fluke CL Porto win he has had a lot of money to play with every club since. The one time another team rose to the challenge he ended up leaving like a mug. Those Chelsea fans singing his name (just like the rest of them to be fair) are bunch of tossers and he barely had half the stadium full before his last game with them, why weren't they singing then?
How is it flawed logic to say that Barcelona have vastly under performed this year and effectively handed Madrid the title? It’s a fact that they have, losing to Getafe and then Osasuna the other week, both games they dominated and should have won but for poor defending. Barcelona havent been at their best and if anything, the flawed logic is coming from you in ignoring this and labelling the 10 point lead a “HUGE” achievement, whilst ignoring the huge caveat that the lead is primarily down to Barca’s poor form.
As I said before, after the same number of games last season Barca had 62 points, in 09/10 they had 58, in 08/09 they had 60. So to have 51 points with this team, which is arguably the best of the lot in terms of talent, is incredible. You can down play it as much as you want but attributing the 10 point lead to Mourinho as if he’s masterminded it all is just ridiculous.
As for Madrid being the better team, come on FFS. It isn’t even questionable who the better side is and any viewing of the Classico’s should clear up any doubt you have. He’s failed to beat them 5 times already this year, whilst Barca have beaten Madrid 3 times, including twice at the Bernabeu. Even if he was to beat Barca it would be by ceding possession and scraping a goal on the counter, with no attempt at matching them footballing wise. That doesnt equate to being the better football team, regardless of how much you love Mourinho.
Resorting to childish presumptions to 'better' your argument. Disappointing.
Yep. JazzG is an Arsenal fan, I wonder if he thinks they used to win league trophies because we just didn't want it more.
Apparently he won the Champions League with Inter because of that fecking volcano in Iceland, which forced Barcelona to take a road trip.
Anyways, I'm actually surprised with how poor Barcelona's points total is compared to previous years. So it does seem they've contributed hugely to their own downfall. But as I said, kudos to Mourinho for getting/keeping his team so consistent so as to open up such a huge lead. As has been said before, Real's current points tally would, if it follows it's current projected course, win the title in 09/10 ahead of Barca's 99 (I think) points. So it's not merely that they're ahead of an under par Barca. Its also the fact that they are so far ahead.
Having said, I think it's rather funny how people have their defense mechanism regarding any praise for Mourinho. For the record, I do think he has his fair few flaws as a manager that he needs to address before reaching the levels he aspires to. There is a certain magic about development of youth that has alway fascinated me and the fact that he has always made the best of some pretty good and more importantly pretty well polished resources rather than work hard to polish some rough ones, goes against him for me. As does the fact that he's never had a long term successful project. For all his amazing achievements, there's nothing quite like taking a club up the ladder and keeping them right up there. That's the biggest glaring hole on his CV, but he has lots of time to prove himself on that regard.
But still, that doesn't mean we all refrain from praising him if he does something good or when we do, people jump to silly conclusions about your biases. Every manager has holes on their resume. Even Fergie does. Only that his are extremely small. Holes. On the resume. Just to clarify.
Having said, I think it's rather funny how people have their defense mechanism regarding any praise for Mourinho. For the record, I do think he has his fair few flaws as a manager that he needs to address before reaching the levels he aspires to. There is a certain magic about development of youth that has alway fascinated me and the fact that he has always made the best of some pretty good and more importantly pretty well polished resources rather than work hard to polish some rough ones, goes against him for me. As does the fact that he's never had a long term successful project. For all his amazing achievements, there's nothing quite like taking a club up the ladder and keeping them right up there. That's the biggest glaring hole on his CV, but he has lots of time to prove himself on that regard.
But still, that doesn't mean we all refrain from praising him if he does something good or when we do, people jump to silly conclusions about your biases. Every manager has holes on their resume. Even Fergie does. Only that his are extremely small. Holes. On the resume. Just to clarify.
so its 3-4 players...add Obi One Kenobi and voila we have 5-a-side team without a keeper.
comapare this SAF, Wenger, Pep, Jurgen Klopp...and the list goes on
On the youngster front......other than like John Terry....who HAS been given a chance at Chelsea from within their ranks? Not many
Same with Inter....same with Real....the list doesn't go on and on, it pretty much stops at like SAF, Pep and Wenger with the three big leagues, and all 3 have been at their clubs for years to gain that trust and understanding, which is key to bringing through youth.
Same with Inter....same with Real....the list doesn't go on and on, it pretty much stops at like SAF, Pep and Wenger with the three big leagues, and all 3 have been at their clubs for years to gain that trust and understanding, which is key to bringing through youth.
That's a bit bleak. Firstly, its a bit silly suggesting his CL win at Porto was a fluke given that he just won the UEFA with them the year before. How have they fared since he left ? For that matter, how have Chelsea and Inter fared since he left to lead Madrid to a 10 point league lead over Barca. Any way you slice it, the guy is a winner and the players and fans where he manages love him.
Porto's run to the CL final
Man Utd
Lyon
Deportivo
Monaco
With the exception of Man utd not exactly the hardest run to a final and looks more like a route to the UEFA cup rather than the CL. Also the win against Man Utd was a bit dodgy to say the least with a blatant onside goal being given as offside thus knocking them out.
As for Chelsea they have won the double, won a FA cup, got to the CL final (which he couldn't manage) and finished runner up three times since he left, I recall him leaving Chelsea on quite a low note. Investment in the squad isn't quite as high as it was when he was around and didn't he get in strop when Roman wouldn't give him like £50mill to spend over the summer and was complaining about the lack of funds.
Man Utd
Lyon
Deportivo
Monaco
With the exception of Man utd not exactly the hardest run to a final and looks more like a route to the UEFA cup rather than the CL. Also the win against Man Utd was a bit dodgy to say the least with a blatant onside goal being given as offside thus knocking them out.
As for Chelsea they have won the double, won a FA cup, got to the CL final (which he couldn't manage) and finished runner up three times since he left, I recall him leaving Chelsea on quite a low note. Investment in the squad isn't quite as high as it was when he was around and didn't he get in strop when Roman wouldn't give him like £50mill to spend over the summer and was complaining about the lack of funds.
That doesn't constitute a fluke though. Anything can happen in any given round or fixture and a team has to play exceptionally well to run the gauntlet to the final, irrespective of the opposition. Naturally all of this is moot given that he's won the CL again with Inter, so he obviously knows how to get the job done with multiple clubs. And on Chelsea, they've won the league once and are now in free fall, so they're obviously not in better shape now than when he was at the Bridge.
Inter have had many great teams down the years and Moratti has always invested heavily but Mourinho was the one who brought it all together and won a treble. No easy feat, no matter how much money you have especially when you're having to eliminate arguably the best club side that's existed to win the Champions League.
'The only way was down from winning that CL so he got out as soon as he could'.
Bollocks aswell. Staying at the top is indeed very hard but I hardly doubt that's the reason he left. Real Madrid and the challenge off knocking Barcelona off their pedestal is no doubt what appealed to him, and to establish the lead he has this season is no easy task. He may well leave Madrid at the end of the season but I'd hazard a guess that's more to do with boardroom interfering than anything else.
And a flukey CL win? His side has some luck, but name me a side who hasn't had good fortune on their way to winning the Champions League. Barcelona themselves had extremely good fortune in 2011 and 2009 against Madrid and Chelsea. We had good fortune in '99 and '08. Liverpool in '05. But trying to taint his accomplishments with such a lousy stick is a bit lame.
I've not read the previous pages so I don't even know where this debate has stemmed from. Mourinho's a quality manager, he'd do well here, he'd be given the time and there wouldn't be that immense pressure he's had from Abramovich, Moratti and Perez for instant success. He'd be given the time to build his own dynasty, which at 48 and having won everything there is to win, is what I think he wants to do.
And you're being harsh on those Lyon, Depor and Monaco sides. They were very good teams back in 2004, especially Lyon with the likes of Juninho, Malouda, Govou, Juninho, Essien et al. Certainly not a walk over.
Domestically, Inter have been dominant for a while now. In Europe, however, they hadn't been much of a threat for many years. Both before and after Mourinho, Inter never really looked like winning the Champions League in my opinion, but this is the great thing about him. He came in and had players playing to their maximum, consistently, which is what he is great at. Look at most of the Chelsea team, look at Sneijder, look at Inter's defence which was awesome during that CL winning season. People brand these players world class now, as you have, but that is largely on the back of how Mourinho had them playing. Most have gone to shit since he has left their respective teams.
I can't argue with Mourinho's history of short stints at all his clubs, but he himself has said that he wants to settle down at a club for a long time and prove himself. I suppose we will have to wait and see, but I think we'll be talking about one of the greatest managers of all time by the time he retires.
With regards to the part in bold, that can be applied to any footballing situation really. Look at us in 99, for example. There is always luck invovled at some stage. Thankfully, as the seasons go on and Mourinho proves himself time and again with different clubs, this argument is finally dying down as people begin to accept that he isn't just fluking his way through his career.
At Chelsea, Inter, and Real he wasn't brought in to develop youth, he was signed to win trophies ASAP. He wasn't on some feckitallup 10 year plan Wenger gets, and he wasn't in for the long run like SAF has been for almost 30 years. At Chelsea and Inter he came to 2 teams that hadn't won anything of note for a while, and their 2 obsessive owners where desperate for silverware no matter the cost. Developing Players wasn't on the top of their list for him (Especially when you consider both billionaires transfer methods). At Real its the same shit, Another rich guy (that acts and thinks like he owns Madrid) wants trophies NOW.
In Chelsea and Inter's case I would say Mission Accomplished, and it's looking like he will accomplish the same feat at Real soon. It's worth noting though that the star of his Chelsea team was Robben. And he did kept Ozil over Kaka in the Starting XI. It's not like he doesn't give any young players a chance, it's just hard to do so considering the short term goals laid in front of him by his employers.
If Moratti gave a shit about the long term he wouldn't have outspent and hired more managers than every single club in the last 20 years. Sames goes for the Russian, also if Abramovich cares about the long term he wouldn't have intervened in the day to day actions of his best manager and questioned them publicly. If Perez gave a rats ass about the long term he wouldn't have fired Del Bosque, nuff said.
Don't judge Mourinho on something that is the last thing on his employers mind, and something that would most probably get in the way of his goal: The most Silverware possible in the least amount of time.
I see where your coming from and for the record I think he's a brilliant manager but long term success at a single club rebuilding and retaining a position at the top is something he does have to prove for people to believe he can do it. We know he's absolutely brilliantly at bringing success in the short term. He's proven that without doubt. But I'd like to see him do it at a place where he doesn't have ridiculous sums of money and a short time span to win everything without a long term vision. It's simply a case of 'if he hasn't done it I can't assume he will'. It's up to HIM to prove it.
But it's not a big deal really. He's proven himself in almost every other way. He has enough time on his hands to do that as well.
Exactly. They aren't the biggest names in Europe but they were very good teams back then. Deportivo just knocked Milan out with a 4-0 win. Monaco were brilliant with excellent flowing football, and didn't get a kick in the final.
As for Mourinho and youngsters, as has been pointed out here, the teams he's been at weren't looking to build, they wanted instant success and got it. There's a bit more building with Real, though. The signings has been mostly young and Varane has been getting the odd outing.
He's one of the best around, no doubt about it. He builds players up and breaks them down. He's the ultimate man manager i reckon. He makes his players believe in him and gives them the mentality to always give their all. I think generally this will create a winning side the only thing that has really got under his skin is Barcelona. The way he fires his team up to go out and play back fires against Barcelona, it results in ugly stuff and rarely brings the reward he craves.
I think he's the ultimate man manager though.
I think he's the ultimate man manager though.
Mourinho represents somewhat of a moral dillemma for me. 5-7 years ago, I hated the cnut. 3 years or so ago, I would have gladly let him take over from SAF. A year or so ago (the famous eye gouge), he disgusted me. Now I JUST DON'T KNOW...
The thing is, I could try and claim the moral high ground on Mourinho and say that he doesn't fit in with the ethos of our great club (and anyone who would even remotely try and compare his behaviour to anything SAF has ever done, needs their head examined), the philosophy etc, but then I realise - football isn't just a sport anymore, is it. It's a business. So where do we draw the line between winning (success) and losing (failure) - due to what we perceive as right or wrong? I mean, it's not like he's ever killed anyone.
Does it make me a better or worse fan because I value success (trophies) for our club as something more valuable to MUFC then say, values and philosophy? I hope a better candidate comes along, and fast, because I'd gladly look at someone with the same credentials as Mourinho and better (perceived) values. But can we risk not appointing him and risk the future/success of our club because he acted like a spastic a few times a few years ago?
And to top of this dramatic post, how much do we really know about the man? I mean, it seems to me that he has SAF's vote of confidence. So would SAF really endorse the appointment of a despicable loon? Or is there more than what meets the eye with Jose.
The only thing I know about Jose (other than him being a disgraceful loser) is that when he's been tasked with objectives, he usually achieves them (barring winning the UCL with Chelsea). He's a winner. Whether or not he stays at a club long term or not, whether or not he spends money or not - that's almost irrelevant because that was the nature of the environment he was in, at that given point in time.
He wasn't tasked with long term goals to bring through youths. They wanted success, and they wanted it now. Who says he couldn't pull of a 10 year stint at his next club before he f's off to the international arena?
So to summarise - I just don't have a freaking clue, and I don't know how it is so easy for so many of you to have it in either black (Yes) or white (No).
The thing is, I could try and claim the moral high ground on Mourinho and say that he doesn't fit in with the ethos of our great club (and anyone who would even remotely try and compare his behaviour to anything SAF has ever done, needs their head examined), the philosophy etc, but then I realise - football isn't just a sport anymore, is it. It's a business. So where do we draw the line between winning (success) and losing (failure) - due to what we perceive as right or wrong? I mean, it's not like he's ever killed anyone.
Does it make me a better or worse fan because I value success (trophies) for our club as something more valuable to MUFC then say, values and philosophy? I hope a better candidate comes along, and fast, because I'd gladly look at someone with the same credentials as Mourinho and better (perceived) values. But can we risk not appointing him and risk the future/success of our club because he acted like a spastic a few times a few years ago?
And to top of this dramatic post, how much do we really know about the man? I mean, it seems to me that he has SAF's vote of confidence. So would SAF really endorse the appointment of a despicable loon? Or is there more than what meets the eye with Jose.
The only thing I know about Jose (other than him being a disgraceful loser) is that when he's been tasked with objectives, he usually achieves them (barring winning the UCL with Chelsea). He's a winner. Whether or not he stays at a club long term or not, whether or not he spends money or not - that's almost irrelevant because that was the nature of the environment he was in, at that given point in time.
He wasn't tasked with long term goals to bring through youths. They wanted success, and they wanted it now. Who says he couldn't pull of a 10 year stint at his next club before he f's off to the international arena?
So to summarise - I just don't have a freaking clue, and I don't know how it is so easy for so many of you to have it in either black (Yes) or white (No).
I too am kind of ambivalent towards the potential appointment of Mourinho.
I would probably lean towards the "do not want" side of the argument though. He's too much of a self-important tosser, and it would be really tiresome to defend his antics. He would surely lower the club's ethos in many eyes, also those of our support.
He's a winner, and a great man-manager - and what he's about to do with Real Madrid, up against the best club side of all time(probably) is simply astonishing. But I wanta bit more of a dignified manager in when SAF retires - don't get me wrong, I want one who'll want to win as badly as the next one - but there are ways to go about that. Not acting like a complete tosser, for instance.
I would probably lean towards the "do not want" side of the argument though. He's too much of a self-important tosser, and it would be really tiresome to defend his antics. He would surely lower the club's ethos in many eyes, also those of our support.
He's a winner, and a great man-manager - and what he's about to do with Real Madrid, up against the best club side of all time(probably) is simply astonishing. But I wanta bit more of a dignified manager in when SAF retires - don't get me wrong, I want one who'll want to win as badly as the next one - but there are ways to go about that. Not acting like a complete tosser, for instance.
I'm not saying Mourinho has no faults, but the fact remains he's BY FAR the most qualified candidate for the job at the moment.
Will that change in the 2-3 years Sir Alex looks like giving us? Something very drastic will have to happen...
Will that change in the 2-3 years Sir Alex looks like giving us? Something very drastic will have to happen...
I really can't stand the man.
There's massive question marks over his ability to bring through youth, his transfers and his longevity as well as his attitude.
There's massive question marks over his ability to bring through youth, his transfers and his longevity as well as his attitude.
I'd take Mourinho every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Only he and Guardiola are worthy of succeeding SAF.
You can add his approach to football as well, in general his teams play poor football, despite having some of the most talented players in the world.
Not sure anymore about him. SAF keeps talking him up but he's a bit of a dick.
Not even sure the Glazers will want him because he has a tendency to question upper management very publicly. Whereas SAF is very good at keeping things in house.
His nature to leave after a couple of seasons doesn't worry me because SAF is the exception not the norm. Coaches around Europe go in 3-4 year cycles.
He'd be successful but his other side is really nasty. But then again do we really want to trust our future with someone like Moyes who has no experience of winning?
As Hodgson at Liverpool showed its completely different managing a club who's highest aspirations is finishing in the top half vs managing a club who expect to win every week.
Questions. Questions. Questions.
Not even sure the Glazers will want him because he has a tendency to question upper management very publicly. Whereas SAF is very good at keeping things in house.
His nature to leave after a couple of seasons doesn't worry me because SAF is the exception not the norm. Coaches around Europe go in 3-4 year cycles.
He'd be successful but his other side is really nasty. But then again do we really want to trust our future with someone like Moyes who has no experience of winning?
As Hodgson at Liverpool showed its completely different managing a club who's highest aspirations is finishing in the top half vs managing a club who expect to win every week.
Questions. Questions. Questions.
That is one of the worst enduring myths in football today.
The fact he leaves every three years might not worry you, but does the fact that every team he leaves implodes not set alarm bells ringing?
I would argue he left Chelsea in great shape, Grant managed basically his team to a CL final and Ancelotti's double was mostly achieved with his side.
The fact that the manager after isn't as good as he is. Eg Benitez and messes up everything he built isn't exactly his fault.
Benitez winning the CL and La Liga is just as big of an achievement as anything Mourinho has done.
I don't think it is, his teams are always based on a solid defence and midfield.
Why do you think it's untrue?
Mourinho won the champions league with first time winners. Nothing Benitez has done comes close.
That Liverpool team were a worse team with worse players compared to the Porto team.
Simple as that.
And wining the La Liga was an incredible accomplishment.
You don't think Chelsea being in great shape had anything to do with the £300m+ they spend during that period?
Have you seen Real Marid play this season? Except El Clasicos...
Because I watched his Porto side, his first incarnation of Chelsea, his Inter side, and especially this Madrid side this season play top draw football in terms of finesse. Football only a team as gifted as Barca can better.
Real Madrid have scored 117 goals already this season, they scored 148 last season.Playing good football with this Madrid side is literally the least anyone should expect. La Liga is a joke and if you're not battering most teams week in week out with the money you get then you shouldn't be anywhere near a top team.
That played its part too, obviously...
Yes, you're right. Getting the second best team in the world with talents like Ronaldo, Benzema, Higuain, Di Maria, Kaka, Ozil to steamroll Santander 4-0 proves he plays good football... Use your head FFS.
His priority lies with the defence, it always has with every team he's been to and it still does with Madrid. If you'll watch Madrid you'll see he has them much more focused on defending and having a high workrate, even the strikers have had to adapt. And if you pay any attention you'll see that some fans in Madrid are sick of the approach and his preference for defensive players such as Lassana Diarra over Kaka and Granero.