They weren't pretty or good to watch for sure and said it multiple times. They knew how to win though.
Mourinho - not sticking to his principles
- Thread starter Josep Dowling
- Start date
Again, it wasn't by design, they were sloppy and prone to mistakes.
Again, that's not my logic. It's your assumption that I correlate the level of competition with the number of points earned by teams that finished 2nd, 3rd, etc. I never implied that though. Learn to read.
The quality of the top 6 was better last season than in 2014-15. Again, only a fool would fail to notice it. Compare the squads of City 2017 with City 2014, Liverpool 2017 with Suarez-less Liverpool in 2014, United in 2017 with United 2014, Spurs 2017 with Spurs 2014. If you can't notice the difference in quality, I can't help you.
In 2015 the EPL had 3 teams in the last 16 and 0 in the last 8. And no English team made the last 8 in the EL. In 2018 the EPL had 5 teams in the last 16, 2 in the last 8 and 1 in the final. And 1 team in the last 4 in the EL. Even if the draw was more favourable, it's clear that the quality of most top 6 squads has significantly improved from 2015 to 2018. Chelsea 2015 wouldn't get 87 pts now, not a chance.
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I think he is evaluation as he goes. It's fair enough - but in hindsight getting readymade as opposed to talented lads might have been needed. But I think that's why we also saw a change in who he targeted. Perisic, Sanchez (experienced and a worker and offloading Mihki), Toby were targeted in recent windows. He is now looking for players who clearly show the right attitude when on the pitch and of that experience with drive.
Jose does get things wrong, human nature. But you can see why we targeted certain players now.
We played Herrera and Matic for a large stretch of games last season when Pogba was injured. At Anfield, Stamford Bridge... didn't stop De Gea from having to make world class saves though. Whatever we play it doesn't matter. We still play dead football. It won't make a difference until we radically alter our style of football and then see which players are capable of fitting that system or not.
Why didn't any one of these other top 5 get past 80 points bar one ( United , only 81 ) then if they were that good ? Explain.
We have to agree to disagree then.
I would play young as rw before playing mata in front of Valencia or Darmian. At least we would have a more balanced side. We do have a lot of average players and Fred doesn't look that different to what we already had. I think the next manager needs to sell or move on a load of players. The board need to accept the first season will be just about getting shut of the dross and bringing in better players to gel them together.
It's silly to correlate the level of the top 6 with how many teams get 80+ pts. By that logic United 99 were crap because they won the title with only 79 pts.
If the league as a whole gets stronger, the amount of points the top teams win doesn't change significantly and most top 6 teams do not win 80+ pts. That's kind of obvious.
How are you seriously comparing a league campaign 19 years ago to today ? Of course standards have changed.
So all other big teams failed to get past 80 points bar one while City gets 100 points against these similar teams but the rest of the top 6 weren't poor ? Do you believe what you're saying ?
So, if one team gets 100 pts and the next 81, it must be because the other teams were poor? That's the only logical option? The option that that team had an exceptional campaign because it itself was a great team is not a logical option at all? I'm done.
How much of this is Mourinho's fault though. Who is the last player that improved significantly under Mourinho? I would really struggle to identify any player that has. Even players like Rashford who should be naturally be on an improving trajectory seem to have stalled in their development.
I can think of a few players who improved under other premier league managers:
- Pep: Sterling, Aguero (scarily), De Bruyne (scarily), Silva (scarily).
- Klopp: Mane, Coutinho, Firmino, Salah, Robertson
- Pochettino: Kane, Son, Eriksen, Alli, Lloris
At some point, Mourinho needs to coach players to be better and his teams to be better. I think a player like Herrera would fit well into any top six side if he had a manager that gave him the tools and the guidance to do a good job. So could Martial, Rashford, Pogba and Shaw. Mourinho needs to inspire as well as push. From the outside, it seems there is little inspiring his team, and a lot of pushing. Mourinho used to be good at the inspiring thing - if you listen or read what some of his ex-players said about him, they would run through brick walls for him. I don't think a top manager can get away just by pushing their players anymore.
Another thing is that Mourinho's teams don't seem to enjoy their football, and neither do the fans. When the team is winning, this is fine, because winning is enjoyable on its own. But when the team is not winning, things fall apart at the seams. Yes, the expectations are different at Man Utd compared to Spurs or even Liverpool (sadly), but if Moyes or Van Gaal had been playing exciting and enjoyable football without winning, most fans would have happily given them more time to complete their projects. Mourinho is in danger of going down that path. One of the reasons the like of Klopp and Pochettino have been given time is because their teams also entertain and the players actually enjoy playing. (Yes, the expectations are also a bit different).
They both played similar teams and considering 81 points will mostly never win you the league, it means the other teams were underperforming as much as City were overperformed.
City, for sure, overperformed, but the rest of the top 6 had underwhelming season and their points tally show that. If they were that good, second spot should have ended with 85-87 or something. The fact that all bar one got past 80 isn't a good sign for a strong league.
City will win the league with 100 points any time, I'm not disrespecting them, but my point is if you consider Chelsea title in 2015 due to poor opposition, City opponents last season were also shite in form. No one used this as a stick to beat City achievement with when they walked the league. No one beat us with it too when SAF walked the league in his last season. You walk the league, you're great, irrespective of how shite your opponents are.
Not exactly, while City performed at an incredibly high level with 24 points out 30 against top 6 teams, the rest mainly lost points against top 6. Against the rest of the league City got 76pts, Spurs 64pts, Liverpool 65pts, United 62pts, Chelsea 58pts and Arsenal 57pts.
These are fairly normal records, the change is that City demolished the rest of the top 6, the previous season Chelsea got 77pts against the rest of the league.
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Very interesting stats that tbh, didn't expect that. The difference between an historically great season and just a very good one seems to be being able to put away the rest of the top teams, not necessarily the cannon fodder. Although that in itself of course shows that you're simply a class above everyone else.
Just say no to megathreads!
Seems to be football in the modern age. Authoritarians are a thing of the past. We need someone who inspires the players rather than drills them.
Totally agree with what you are saying in players not improving, and that was the only thing I could agree with in the fact the club didn't back him with more money this past Summer. You look at our squad, and there is a lot of dross fair enough, but the players Jose has at his disposal should still be more than capable of beating Brighton and that is where it falls on him. There isn't really any player in our squad he has improved since he came in, and a fair few have actually gone backwards. Some of it is because of age like Mata or Valencia, but the majority is because of the tactics and game plan. Herrera is scared to pass forward, Martial looks like a pub player, Rashford hasn't improved at all and is stagnating at a worrying rate, and we have the world famous Pogba situation.
This is the main reason why I think Jose has to go. The players are not responding and we are getting nowhere near our potential with the squad, along with the tactics being just dreadful. I think the players are alot to blame mind, as they are a set of primadonnas, but we can't keep things as they are, it is toxic right now. My fear is we get the next appointment wrong or that he isn't backed by the Glazers \ Woodward and then we are in an even worse position.
67 and 65 look pretty low for me.
I think Lukaku Lingard Matic at times Rashers, also Valencia and Young, too early re Pereira but he's at least got the chance.....
I think its 50/50. Players need to be accountable and Jose needs to keep giving them chances, keep not throwing them under a bus and keep
trying to coach them to perform better.
The majority on here will always blame the manager and not the players. Easier to change one than 11 and all that. It's a very English trait they change the national coach every few years and cannot believe they haven't won anything with the golden generation to end all previous generations. Fact is we buy poorly. Have done for a long time really only SAF was able to even make average buys look good. Yes I'd say average buys go back before he left.
Out of 84, it's not. It's about 19 wins out of 28 games so 67% win rate. That's fairly high, higher than the best managers career records. Barcelona, Real Madrid and Atletico are also in the same bracket.
Compared to the league winner it's not that high. You said both Chelsea and City got 77 and 76 respectively, so 67 or 65 aren't enough for a title win or challenge.
Mourinho inherited good teams with great players and bought in better players. At United he inherited mediocre players and has not been allowed to strengthen with great players.
How many world class players have we actually got? I would have to say probably only three, and by world class I mean skill, determination and consistency, having two of the three is not good enough.
I don't think he's far away from the blueprint of his 2005 Chelsea side.
The main difference is the lack of a single proper winger but I suppose that's what he thinks Martial/Sanchez can deliver. He's using Mata similar to how he used Joe Cole. Given the lack of creativity in his midfields it makes sense to have a playmaking wideman.
The main difference is the lack of a single proper winger but I suppose that's what he thinks Martial/Sanchez can deliver. He's using Mata similar to how he used Joe Cole. Given the lack of creativity in his midfields it makes sense to have a playmaking wideman.
Of course it's not enough but the main difference here is momentum, it only represents 2-3 games swing, the difference seem high, but it's not at the beginning of last season City won at least a couple of games at the 93-95 minutes these games could have gone either way.
To put it simply, the top 6 is better but within the top 6 there is a big difference between first and sixth.
He doesn't have the players for it. Try fit our players into his old Chelsea system and it would just be a poor man's version of it:
A weak defence.
A midfield without the defensive ability of Makelele or the goalscoring threat of Lampard.
No proper wingers.
A striker that doesnt hold the ball up well.
City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs first XIs are all better than ours. We're in trouble this season regardless of manager.
A weak defence.
A midfield without the defensive ability of Makelele or the goalscoring threat of Lampard.
No proper wingers.
A striker that doesnt hold the ball up well.
City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs first XIs are all better than ours. We're in trouble this season regardless of manager.
Your current team is literally miles away from the team in that picture. Lampard, Makalélé and Essien were all world class. Drogba is an all-time PL great and clearly one or two levels above Lukaku even if the latter is a good striker in his own right. The biggest difference might be the CB duo, Carvalho-Terry is one of the best CB pairings in the history of the PL, whilst your current defenders are, to put it mildly, not so much.I don't think he's far away from the blueprint of his 2005 Chelsea side.
The main difference is the lack of a single proper winger but I suppose that's what he thinks Martial/Sanchez can deliver. He's using Mata similar to how he used Joe Cole. Given the lack of creativity in his midfields it makes sense to have a playmaking wideman.
In quality obviously. I was talking about style and general tactics
Better as squad but need to show it on the pitch. Every year we hear about close title challenge from several times but it ends in one team walking the league while the rest struggling to maintain top 4 position.
Ah, fair enough. Then do you think it's a case that your players do not have enough quality to play the way he wants to play, or that his tactics are outdated? From what I remember from his Madrid days and even at Inter, he used to play some lovely attacking stuff as well if he had the players for it.
Mourinho is exactly sticking to his principles. Unfortunately our players are not quality enough to carry them out.
Also his principles are to defend and counter, or more accurately to defend pass back, pass back and pass back.
This is not the United way, nor do we want it to become the United way. Recently our football has looked like we are walking through treacle.
This is so frustrating I seem to be always watching our matches through gritted teeth.
Mourinho is doing what Mourinho does, we shouldn't expect anything else from him, if we want the old United back then we need a United style manager with a United class team.
Actually this passing back started with LVG but has gotten worse with Mourinho. Even when we do pass forward the receiving player is nearly always not facing the goal we are attacking.
When we do pass forward most of the time its either at or behind the player so it slows our attacking style down. What happened to aiming for the space just in front of the player?
I know we occasionally get it right but just not often enough.
Also his principles are to defend and counter, or more accurately to defend pass back, pass back and pass back.
This is not the United way, nor do we want it to become the United way. Recently our football has looked like we are walking through treacle.
This is so frustrating I seem to be always watching our matches through gritted teeth.
Mourinho is doing what Mourinho does, we shouldn't expect anything else from him, if we want the old United back then we need a United style manager with a United class team.
Actually this passing back started with LVG but has gotten worse with Mourinho. Even when we do pass forward the receiving player is nearly always not facing the goal we are attacking.
When we do pass forward most of the time its either at or behind the player so it slows our attacking style down. What happened to aiming for the space just in front of the player?
I know we occasionally get it right but just not often enough.
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I don't see why you can't win playing the Mourinho way, unfashionable yes, but it can win. I think his recruitment has been one of the issues plus the discontentment behind the scenes. I don't think Mourinho was ever that good at bringing in players. Many of his Chelsea side were purchased by Ranieri before he was sacked, note Robben and Cech. If Mourinho had one proper winger and one better full back that could provide going forward he could get things working but he spent all his time wanting to buy another CB
I also think Pogba doesn't look like a Mourinho signing at all - it seems more of a Woody buy. He didn't work hard enough when he was purchased to be a Mourinho signing. When Matic is back I think the defensive side will be much tighter.He was the undisputed king of the managerial world in the '00s but now he's forced to play catch up. Back in the day, his impact in English football was tremendous and his Chelsea side rose the bar for the PL title to unimaginable -then- heights. The good thing for us was that Ferguson was always ready n' willing to pick up any gauntlet thrown to the ground. It took SAF nearly three seasons to come up with the antidote (= probably his best ever version of United which in itself is proof of how high Mourinho had raised the bar) which consisted of 1/3 swashbuckling football (06/07) and 2/3 (some of the) ideas that were perfected by Mourinho. Now, Jose is the one that must adapt his game to the particularities of the modern game.
His main issue is that teams, in general, have become better on the ball. During the period of his dominance in the football world, most football sides prioritized cohesion, defensive stability and nullifying the opponent's attacking plan over the phase of the game with the ball. In that football world, Chelsea were favourites against Ronaldinho's Barca, Benitez made it to two CL finals in three seasons and Wenger almost made it to the top of European football with Henry and ten men behind the ball while Ferguson's tactics were considered "naive" by the media.
Now, the tables have turned and what gave Mourinho the upper hand against Ferguson (he enjoys a great h2h record against the great man) has become his disadvantage against Guardiola. The question is simple: How to establish defensive stability and build a solid defensive unit and, ultimately, a team confident off the ball when the other teams, nowadays, are becoming less and less afraid to have the ball at their feet? At the highest level, against Pep, it is more than evident: The Catalan deploys two play-makers in the midfield, he pushes his FBs way up the pitch, he likes his forward to move between the lines & tactically he encourages vertical movement off the ball and third man runs. As a result, Mourinho finds it very hard to establish control and numerical advantages in the vital square between the CBs and the CMs.
But we don't play City every week, one might argue. True, but this doesn't make the problem go away entirely. Take yesterday's game for example: Brighton identified our right side as our weak spot and focused their attacks on that side. They also chose to stay a bit high when losing the ball in order to close down Pogba and take a reasonable gamble, knowing that United simply doesn't have enough quality to advance the ball from deeper areas when the Frenchman is being forced out of the equation.
These are two patterns Mourinho was not used to facing week in and week out: Confidence on the ball (with some pressing or closing down) which translates into a clear attacking plan against his side and purposefulness with the ball and creates difficulty in finding the extra man in the midfield battle. The Pogba conundrum, the trust in Fellaini, McTominay's involvement in the first team, all revolve around this situation. The dilemma here is obvious: do you respond to the limitation of spaces and time on the ball plus more attacking intent in front of your own third by fortifying the defence even more (ie back four plus Matic-Fellaini/McTominay) with physicality or by adding more quality on the ball in the centre-halves and/or in the midfield?
We've been going back and forth with our choices in the midfield, one time opting for strength and the other leaning toward better/more creativity but without being able to find the "golden rule" that will eventually rid us of our problems in this department. At the back, Mourinho's choices indicate that he acknowledges the issue. Both Bailly and Lindelof are not your prototypical Mourinho CBs. They were signed with the notion that, despite not being as solid defenders in the box as Smalling or Jones on his day, they would not shrink away when the ball is at their feet. It hasn't worked well thus far and that's probably why Mourinho is moaning about the lack of leadership at the back.
There's also a glaring issue in the phase of our game with the ball which many people here like to describe as "the absence of an attacking plan A". I think that tactically the rise of the attacking/creative FBs has hindered Mourinho's game to a certain degree too. Now, attacking FBs are not new to the game and tracking back should really not be an issue for our wingers (despite what many on here like to believe). But the increasing trend of relying on the FBs not only to provide width but also create and spend much more time in the attacking half forces your wingers to play in deeper positions more than you'd like to. Combine this with Jose's preference to defend deep and his aforementioned difficulty to maintain the defensive shape in today's game and you get a completely disjointed side. Going the extra mile for the team and track opponents is all fine and well but wingers forced deep either because they are not allowed much space (due to opposition FBs staying up and marking them the instant we win back possession) to run into or because the back-six can't get the ball out of our third on their own is. Add to this the fact that Jose doesn't want to overcommit players up front and you get the full picture of why we look clueless in the attacking phase. It's pointless to use a target man when your wingers are forced to position themselves miles away from him in the build-up.
In short, it's more difficult to compete for the biggest prizes when you aim to exploit your opponent's mistakes in an era when sides are becoming better on the ball. You will either have to become better on the ball yourself (RM) or devise a plan to relieve pressure in your half (Conte's side rhomboid tricks to circulate the ball in his half, Simeone's aggressive defensive traps, Poch's more reserved pressing etc). Maybe Mourinho will unlock this puzzle at United during his time at OT. But in modern-day football, you can't just sit back and wait for your opponent to simply self-destruct. It may work every once in a while but it doesn't seem like a long-term solution for us. I hope i'm wrong but that's how i see it.
His main issue is that teams, in general, have become better on the ball. During the period of his dominance in the football world, most football sides prioritized cohesion, defensive stability and nullifying the opponent's attacking plan over the phase of the game with the ball. In that football world, Chelsea were favourites against Ronaldinho's Barca, Benitez made it to two CL finals in three seasons and Wenger almost made it to the top of European football with Henry and ten men behind the ball while Ferguson's tactics were considered "naive" by the media.
Now, the tables have turned and what gave Mourinho the upper hand against Ferguson (he enjoys a great h2h record against the great man) has become his disadvantage against Guardiola. The question is simple: How to establish defensive stability and build a solid defensive unit and, ultimately, a team confident off the ball when the other teams, nowadays, are becoming less and less afraid to have the ball at their feet? At the highest level, against Pep, it is more than evident: The Catalan deploys two play-makers in the midfield, he pushes his FBs way up the pitch, he likes his forward to move between the lines & tactically he encourages vertical movement off the ball and third man runs. As a result, Mourinho finds it very hard to establish control and numerical advantages in the vital square between the CBs and the CMs.
But we don't play City every week, one might argue. True, but this doesn't make the problem go away entirely. Take yesterday's game for example: Brighton identified our right side as our weak spot and focused their attacks on that side. They also chose to stay a bit high when losing the ball in order to close down Pogba and take a reasonable gamble, knowing that United simply doesn't have enough quality to advance the ball from deeper areas when the Frenchman is being forced out of the equation.
These are two patterns Mourinho was not used to facing week in and week out: Confidence on the ball (with some pressing or closing down) which translates into a clear attacking plan against his side and purposefulness with the ball and creates difficulty in finding the extra man in the midfield battle. The Pogba conundrum, the trust in Fellaini, McTominay's involvement in the first team, all revolve around this situation. The dilemma here is obvious: do you respond to the limitation of spaces and time on the ball plus more attacking intent in front of your own third by fortifying the defence even more (ie back four plus Matic-Fellaini/McTominay) with physicality or by adding more quality on the ball in the centre-halves and/or in the midfield?
We've been going back and forth with our choices in the midfield, one time opting for strength and the other leaning toward better/more creativity but without being able to find the "golden rule" that will eventually rid us of our problems in this department. At the back, Mourinho's choices indicate that he acknowledges the issue. Both Bailly and Lindelof are not your prototypical Mourinho CBs. They were signed with the notion that, despite not being as solid defenders in the box as Smalling or Jones on his day, they would not shrink away when the ball is at their feet. It hasn't worked well thus far and that's probably why Mourinho is moaning about the lack of leadership at the back.
There's also a glaring issue in the phase of our game with the ball which many people here like to describe as "the absence of an attacking plan A". I think that tactically the rise of the attacking/creative FBs has hindered Mourinho's game to a certain degree too. Now, attacking FBs are not new to the game and tracking back should really not be an issue for our wingers (despite what many on here like to believe). But the increasing trend of relying on the FBs not only to provide width but also create and spend much more time in the attacking half forces your wingers to play in deeper positions more than you'd like to. Combine this with Jose's preference to defend deep and his aforementioned difficulty to maintain the defensive shape in today's game and you get a completely disjointed side. Going the extra mile for the team and track opponents is all fine and well but wingers forced deep either because they are not allowed much space (due to opposition FBs staying up and marking them the instant we win back possession) to run into or because the back-six can't get the ball out of our third on their own is. Add to this the fact that Jose doesn't want to overcommit players up front and you get the full picture of why we look clueless in the attacking phase. It's pointless to use a target man when your wingers are forced to position themselves miles away from him in the build-up.
In short, it's more difficult to compete for the biggest prizes when you aim to exploit your opponent's mistakes in an era when sides are becoming better on the ball. You will either have to become better on the ball yourself (RM) or devise a plan to relieve pressure in your half (Conte's side rhomboid tricks to circulate the ball in his half, Simeone's aggressive defensive traps, Poch's more reserved pressing etc). Maybe Mourinho will unlock this puzzle at United during his time at OT. But in modern-day football, you can't just sit back and wait for your opponent to simply self-destruct. It may work every once in a while but it doesn't seem like a long-term solution for us. I hope i'm wrong but that's how i see it.
Probably because he had Smalling, Jones and Rojo and was expecting one or two of them to be leaders whilst pairing with the new signings. I think his plans have changed because of whats happened and what hes been allowed to do.
In the first season we got Bailly, and after the way Smalling had done for us under LVG previously, a lot of people (esp on this forum) expected him to push on as a leader. Weve hardly seen that. I do think bailly and Rojo and Bailly and Jones had good periods together but they were too short due to injuries / suspensions.
For example, I really think Jose was thinking about going 352 last season. I think we would have had 3 at the back, with Lindelof, Bailly + 1 (lindelof probably being the ball playing one in the centre ala Luiz under Conte)
Then having Perisic as the left sided player going up and down whilst having Valencia the right player (but Persisic, we wouldnt pay the extra 5m).
So with no actual left wingback type player to put in the crosses, it changed.
And added to that, Jones and Bailly were suspended in Europe, so we couldnt really go with a consistent 3 at the back, so he went with one 2 man partnership for the league and one partnership for Europe.
Im expecting Griezman changing his mind, and Zlatans injury meant we also had to make a change in our targets (hence Morata/Lukaku links - with Lukaku first choice)
I think back to the CB, he clearly identified 5 people he thought he could work with and we didnt get a single one. It seemed Toby.A was first choice but again we didnt go for him cos of his age.
Im suspecting in 2012 Woodward would not have allowed Fergie to buy RVP (last year of his contract) for the 30m we spent cos of his age too.
Breakdown of Jose's Tactics and why they aren't working for us. Shamelessly stolen from reddit. Interesting read.
"I’ve seen the idea of “hold and hope someone breaks through on attack.” But this really isn’t true.
Jose has a bit of a rigid form of attack, and actually quite a rigid tactic overall. This is why people think we don’t have tactics. It is creative based on how creative the players are individually rather than the tactics themselves. This doesn’t mean ineffective.
But here are our tactics and exactly why we are struggling.
Defensively - Contain. Funnel attackers to non threatening parts of the pitch. Clear it out instead of trying to hold it and risk losing ball in precarious positions.
(We completely failed at this today, gave the ball away in precarious positions in the middle of the park leading to I believe the first and 3rd goal).
When you do clear it up or when you force a turnover. Move on the counter.
Play down the sides specifically.
Here’s an important part of the philosophy. Get the ball up to the opponents defensive area before committing extra attackers to the play.
The wingers job is to make runs behind, and in attack cut inside or to the top of the box, shooting or moving to the striker.
At the same time overlap runs by wingbacks.
If the winger doesn’t have space, drop it to the wingback and move a little bit backwards.
Wingback to cross it in or pass back to the wingers and cut in and drive passes to the middle.
What it does is keep the ball out of open areas in the middle to prevent counter attacks. It’s not creating tons of chances. But the better you are at intercepting possession and funneling the opponent the more you control it.
Now if you understand this you’ll see what the problem with our team is. It’s highly reliant on wings.
Lukaku is the perfect middle for this system up front. But the entire game is revolving around moving the ball from both sides forward and in depending on where the defense is focused.
This means wingbacks and good possession players on the sides of the striker to come back and get the ball to bring it up before the wingbacks come up.
It also means you need good passers from the defense midfield to connect it up.
Think of it like a V from CBs to your two deep midfielders up to the sides of the striker. Then in.
So... what’s wrong with it right now?
Well today it was on display:
But RW lacking actually effects us defensively, as we have to choose between attack or defend instead of both.
Accordingly, when a team gets the lead on us they can expose this weakness further by defensively loading up on the left side and pressing us to move there.
Sanchez, matic, Valencia or dalot, these guys will help the tactics work as they should. Additionally Lingard being fit and playing where mata was playing for the get go should provide some cover.
Anyway, not feeling optimistic, but I also feel this is why our team isn’t performing. Mourinho has tactics but he’s not flexible. Without the team to fit what he wants it’s a struggle and can get ugly.
Edit: I’d like to make clear I’m not trying to present this as an out for mourinho just an explanation of how he likes to play."
"I’ve seen the idea of “hold and hope someone breaks through on attack.” But this really isn’t true.
Jose has a bit of a rigid form of attack, and actually quite a rigid tactic overall. This is why people think we don’t have tactics. It is creative based on how creative the players are individually rather than the tactics themselves. This doesn’t mean ineffective.
But here are our tactics and exactly why we are struggling.
Defensively - Contain. Funnel attackers to non threatening parts of the pitch. Clear it out instead of trying to hold it and risk losing ball in precarious positions.
(We completely failed at this today, gave the ball away in precarious positions in the middle of the park leading to I believe the first and 3rd goal).
When you do clear it up or when you force a turnover. Move on the counter.
Play down the sides specifically.
Here’s an important part of the philosophy. Get the ball up to the opponents defensive area before committing extra attackers to the play.
The wingers job is to make runs behind, and in attack cut inside or to the top of the box, shooting or moving to the striker.
At the same time overlap runs by wingbacks.
If the winger doesn’t have space, drop it to the wingback and move a little bit backwards.
Wingback to cross it in or pass back to the wingers and cut in and drive passes to the middle.
What it does is keep the ball out of open areas in the middle to prevent counter attacks. It’s not creating tons of chances. But the better you are at intercepting possession and funneling the opponent the more you control it.
Now if you understand this you’ll see what the problem with our team is. It’s highly reliant on wings.
Lukaku is the perfect middle for this system up front. But the entire game is revolving around moving the ball from both sides forward and in depending on where the defense is focused.
This means wingbacks and good possession players on the sides of the striker to come back and get the ball to bring it up before the wingbacks come up.
It also means you need good passers from the defense midfield to connect it up.
Think of it like a V from CBs to your two deep midfielders up to the sides of the striker. Then in.
So... what’s wrong with it right now?
Well today it was on display:
- Passing from defensive mid. Jose wanted matic for a reason. Matic is excellent at holding off the press and moving the ball up to those positions. With him out, I’m sorry but pereira and Fred have not filled this role properly. They are good at small passes. Both can improve. But matic was excellent at making that pass. Especially the longer one with some pace on it.
- The forward midfielder is supposed to roam around and help connect that up. Help get the ball up to runners so the DMs don’t have to go to far forward. Pogba was piss poor today. He didn’t pick out a single run with an accurate pass. He lost the ball constantly. And he was poorly positioned.
- Our wingers. Again they are supposed to get behind or cut back to the top of the box. This is supposed to allow the wingback to be an option for space. And drag the defense away from them for an open cross. Also to track back if the wing back overlaps.
- Right wing. We have no right wing. This mean young has two jobs. And no backup. This was a reason for our defensive failure in first half. Especially goal one and even goal 2, as Bailly made a poor clearance resulting a corner as he had no help or cover. Mata can’t cover. This is why Valencia is important for us currently. He is an absolute monster athletically. Incredibly rapid. So he has covered that hole defensively (but not offensively). When our Rb goes up. Who covers?
But RW lacking actually effects us defensively, as we have to choose between attack or defend instead of both.
Accordingly, when a team gets the lead on us they can expose this weakness further by defensively loading up on the left side and pressing us to move there.
Sanchez, matic, Valencia or dalot, these guys will help the tactics work as they should. Additionally Lingard being fit and playing where mata was playing for the get go should provide some cover.
Anyway, not feeling optimistic, but I also feel this is why our team isn’t performing. Mourinho has tactics but he’s not flexible. Without the team to fit what he wants it’s a struggle and can get ugly.
Edit: I’d like to make clear I’m not trying to present this as an out for mourinho just an explanation of how he likes to play."
Does Lindelof look Woody or Jose? Who knows these days if its value for first choice we got. Or neither.I don't see why you can't win playing the Mourinho way, unfashionable yes, but it can win. I think his recruitment has been one of the issues plus the discontentment behind the scenes. I don't think Mourinho was ever that good at bringing in players. Many of his Chelsea side were purchased by Ranieri before he was sacked, note Robben and Cech. If Mourinho had one proper winger and one better full back that could provide going forward he could get things working but he spent all his time wanting to buy another CB
Was jsut about to post this.Very good write up and sums our problems. He's no where near the squad he wants. The fault maybe his for not getting what he wated 3 seasons in or with Ed for not granting what the manager needs. Either way it doesen't look nice.
I think for the most part he has stuck to his principles, he as switched formations a few times, but not drastically occasionally he has gone 5 at the back but that's about it.
If you think his time at Porto and first spell at Chelsea he mostly played 433, he switched that to 4231 during his time at Inter and carried that onto his time at Madrid and Chelsea again and was his default formation until the latter half of last season where he now seems to have gone back to 433.
within those formations he has generally stuck to his principles, normally the wide players stay quite deep, he likes a big man up top. His tactics have also remained the same for the most part, get a lead and hold it against the small teams and get men behind the ball and try and grab a goal against the big teams.
Really i don't think Mourinho has changed much at all tactically.
If you think his time at Porto and first spell at Chelsea he mostly played 433, he switched that to 4231 during his time at Inter and carried that onto his time at Madrid and Chelsea again and was his default formation until the latter half of last season where he now seems to have gone back to 433.
within those formations he has generally stuck to his principles, normally the wide players stay quite deep, he likes a big man up top. His tactics have also remained the same for the most part, get a lead and hold it against the small teams and get men behind the ball and try and grab a goal against the big teams.
Really i don't think Mourinho has changed much at all tactically.
I'm sure he's playing Bailly and Lindelof to prove he needed a new centre half.
Last year he went with Smalling and another virtually every game. Smalling needs to play when fit.
Last year he went with Smalling and another virtually every game. Smalling needs to play when fit.