Mourinho or Pogba?

[Ban]

I answered it in the previous post, and I've made about 3 replies to you in this thread and you've offered nothing bar "You only disagree because you hate Mourinho" in response to practically everyone that has said Carragher is full of shit. You have mentioned agenda and yet it feels like you have one against Pogba and apparently don't rate Lukaku either, yet I rarely see you on the side of getting rid of Mourinho, it's never his fault from your perspective seemingly.

You were the first who said he wrote horseshit and similar stuff and dismissed it as anti United or whatnot. Your replies were - Sevilla, setting the tone, he's a cancer, I loathe him, we can't go further. All the stuff we read before time and time again.

As for Lukaku, I rate him, really don't know what gave you an idea I don't. I don't have agenda against Pogba, just calling it like it is.
I'm happy you keep track of my posts though, respect.

 

[mancan92]

So he couldn't come out and put an end to all his agents bullshit and say he wants to be here? Been countless games where he's just lumbered around and tried Hollywood ball one after another constantly giving the ball away. Puts himself above the team.

Umm how many of our players get linked to other clubs? Also Pogba has said many times he is committed to the team so what more do you want him to say. Also his style of play is no reason to say he disrespects the team he isn’t Milner he isn’t going to do that job but what is going to do is provide those moments of quality and although they don’t happen much but when they do it comes from Pogba.

Jose in comparison has done what you criticised Pogba for in regards to agents stuff whilst also throwing the club under the bus

 

[.Rossi]

Just two things...

1. Mourinho knew full well what he was doing today with the cameras. Why does he have to fall out with players? It's baffling. What has happened to him?

2. I've read on this thread that Paul Pogba was Juventus' and is France's most important player and he never caused hassle before.
If you truly believe that, you don't watch football or haven't an understanding of it because that is off the charts man.

 

[Infra-red]

Fergie should have said that no player is bigger than Alex Ferguson. Which would have been right. It just doesn't work that way anymore.

At some clubs it doesn't. I don't really want to be Chelsea, though. There's no reason why it can't work that way here.

 

[mancan92]

That's a ridiculous comparison. He's not our Ronaldo.
I'm not being pedantic. He hasn't proved on the pitch he's anywhere close to what Hazard and Ronaldo produced.

And tell me if Mourinho's agent was indeed 'whoring' Jose to PSG how is that bad and Raiola whoring Pogba in January wasnt?

You are being pedantic. Did I say Pogba was as good or had achieved what Ronaldo or hazard has? Or did I say he is our equivalent because he is the one everyone looks to.

 

[Amir]

At some clubs it doesn't. I don't really want to be Chelsea, though. There's no reason why it can't work that way here.

It works that way everywhere. If a manager is successful, he's bigger than the players. If he's a failure, he's not.

Hasn't prevented Real and Barca from becoming dominant forces.

 

[Ban]

You are being pedantic. Did I say Pogba was as good or had achieved what Ronaldo or hazard has? Or did I say he is our equivalent because he is the one everyone looks to.

That's a 3rd time you're saying I'm being pedantic.
Lets agree to disagree. Maybe all are looking at him but many times he plays like a kid, switches on and of. Scores a worldie, then decides to joke on the pitch a bit or try to beat 3, 4 players by himself. He can't be our Ronaldo now just cause people are looking at him. If that's being pedantic then call me pedantic.

 

[Devil may care]

You were the first who said he wrote horseshit and similar stuff and dismissed it as anti United or whatnot. Your replies were - Sevilla, setting the tone, he's a cancer, I loathe him, we can't go further. All the stuff we read before time and time again.

As for Lukaku, I rate him, really don't know what gave you an idea I don't. I don't have agenda against Pogba, just calling it like it is.
I'm happy you keep track of my posts though, respect.

Because that was my view of the article, in my opinion Carragher and any other scouser would love Mourinho to stay at the club because it's bad for us, I'm repeating views just as you and lots of other posters are because we are going in circles with the same issues at the club over and over and it all comes back to the same thing.

I'm not tracking your posts, I read your Benteke vs Lukaku post in this thread, did I misread it? and my view on your view of Pogba comes from reading your posts in this thread, so if you respect that I read posts in a thread I'm posting in, then cool, we've argued ever since the Perisic thread but I have nothing personal against you.

 

[mancan92]

According to tomorrow's papers, this is a false dichotomy anyway - Pogba is determined to leave for Spain and will force his way out regardless of whether Mourinho remains United manager or not.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...a-determined-force-man-utd-exit-clashes-jose/

Answer the question tho. That is what is being posed in the thread we are discussing.

 

[mu4c_20le]

At some clubs it doesn't. I don't really want to be Chelsea, though. There's no reason why it can't work that way here.

Maybe if he has won as much as the great man. The fact is, Jose was respected by everyone even zlatan in his first season, they know what he has acheived so theres no question there. But you cannot expect unconditional respect like Fergie commanded because the jose of today has become a bitter, dour man who alienates his players and turns clubs into circuses when things arent going well.

 

[Ban]

Because that was my view of the article, in my opinion Carragher and any other scouser would love Mourinho to stay at the club because it's bad for us, I'm repeating views just as you and lots of other posters are because we are going in circles with the same issues at the club over and over and it all comes back to the same thing.

I'm not tracking your posts, I read your Benteke vs Lukaku post in this thread, did I misread it? and my view on your view of Pogba comes from reading your posts in this thread, so if you respect that I read posts in a thread I'm posting in, then cool, we've argued ever since the Perisic thread but I have nothing personal against you.

You misread the stuff about Lukaku, don't even remember what was it about. Of course it's nothing personal. As long as we don't go all personal which we wont it's all good.

 

[Borden]

Of course I can. Shaw has been very good this season. Zlatan was great under Jose in season one. Lukaku last season. Lingard last season. And so on.

Our spending since he joined was 3rd behind Chelsea and we finished 2nd last year. He had a squad miles behind City and finished where he was expected. Don't come out with utter tripe that he hasn't bettered us when it's an undeniable fact that he has. He ended on the highest points and goal difference since SAF left. He spent but he also replaced shit loads of deadwood. Starting with Wayne Rooney to Schweinstiger and Schneiderlin. He bought a proper striker because we didn't have one either.

Are you serious? He says there aren’t any players who has shown consistent improvement under Mourinho and you reply with this, without realizing you’re pretty much proving his point?

 

[Devil may care]

You misread the stuff about Lukaku, don't even remember what was it about. Of course it's nothing personal. As long as we don't go all personal which we wont it's all good.

My view of your Lukaku posts were that you don't think he's good enough and that we'll never play fluid football with him in the side (I'd agree). Were you being sarcastic or just saying you still think he's good enough but will never help us be an aesthetically pleasing team? As for the rest, we are in agreement there.

 

[Ban]

My view of your Lukaku posts were that you don't think he's good enough and that we'll never play fluid football with him in the side (I'd agree). Were you being sarcastic or just saying you still think he's good enough but will never help us be an aesthetically pleasing team? As for the rest, we are in agreement there.

He's a good player who is completely out of form right now and wouldn't hit the sand in a desert. Personally I like more versatile strikers, he's more of and old school CF if that makes sense. Still a good player as I said and the least of our problems.

 

[Devil may care]

He's a good player who is completely out of form right now and wouldn't hit the sand in a desert. Personally I like more versatile strikers, he's more of and old school CF if that makes sense. Still a good player as I said and the least of our problems.

Gotcha, understood now. You know I never wanted him but I hold my hands up that he's clearly stepped up better than Morata so I was wrong there, and I'd also agree that while he's in bad form he isn't a pressing issue right now as we have much bigger problems and in truth there are no strikers out there that could replace him anyway, there's a striker drought.

 

[Infra-red]

It works that way everywhere. If a manager is successful, he's bigger than the players. If he's a failure, he's not.

Hasn't prevented Real and Barca from becoming dominant forces.

It's one thing to sack a manager for failing to meet specific performance indicators that were previously agreed upon. It's quite another to do it because one player doesn't like him and criticises his tactics publicly. The precedent that would set is absolutely appalling and it's certainly not something which happens everywhere.

Answer the question tho. That is what is being posed in the thread we are discussing.

The answer is that the club has to back Mourinho over Pogba in this particular feud, and they will. Hopefully the two of them can miraculously work it out. If they can't, I'd ship Pogba out in January. This is of course a moot point, as Pogba reportedly wants out asap regardless of the managerial situation at United.

 

[Infra-red]

Maybe if he has won as much as the great man. The fact is, Jose was respected by everyone even zlatan in his first season, they know what he has acheived so theres no question there. But you cannot expect unconditional respect like Fergie commanded because the jose of today has become a bitter, dour man who alienates his players and turns clubs into circuses when things arent going well.

Fine. But the players still have to respect the fact that he is the manager, he's more important than them and he can say and do whatever he likes. Criticising the manager in public is simply unacceptable. Expecting the club to back a single player in a dispute vs the manager is utterly ludicrous.

 

[Champagne Football]

I'd only give Jose another season if he can get top 4. Top 4 should give him more time. It's clear that Jose would like 2 new central defenders before he can give his forwards more freedom. Skriniar and Alderwereld might be top of his list if he can survive long enough to get his hands on them. If Jose survives and nails the next transfer window or two then there's no reason why we won't become as solid as Atletico Madrid have been for the past few seasons who are usually within touching distance of the champions league cup playing defensive dullish football.

Pogba will thrive in an attacking team. He already has his heart set on Barcelona or Juventus. I would only keep Pogba if Pochettino has told Ed behind the scenes that he is coming next season. But seem as I don't think that is happening then right now best option seems to be rid of Pogba and give Jose more time. I don't think another short term heavy spending quick fix with Zidane is the way to go when it's time to replace Jose.

 

[mancan92]

It's one thing to sack a manager for failing to meet specific performance indicators that were previously agreed upon. It's quite another to do it because one player doesn't like him and criticises his tactics publicly. The precedent that would set is absolutely appalling and it's certainly not something which happens everywhere.



The answer is that the club has to back Mourinho over Pogba in this particular feud, and they will. Hopefully the two of them can miraculously work it out. If they can't, I'd ship Pogba out in January. This is of course a moot point, as Pogba reportedly wants out asap regardless of the managerial situation at United.

No mate who do you think is better for the future of the club. Jose or pogba? Who would you personally rather keep st the club and feel can be apart of us going through a more successful period.

 

[Grylte]

Apparantly the thing on the training ground was about an instagram post.

https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/9j44e0/the_pogba_mourinho_training_incident_was_about/

 

[doriandun]

I'd only give Jose another season if he can get top 4. Top 4 should give him more time. It's clear that Jose would like 2 new central defenders before he can give his forwards more freedom. Skriniar and Alderwereld might be top of his list if he can survive long enough to get his hands on them. If Jose survives and nails the next transfer window or two then there's no reason why we won't become as solid as Atletico Madrid have been for the past few seasons who are usually within touching distance of the champions league cup playing defensive dullish football.

Pogba will thrive in an attacking team. He already has his heart set on Barcelona or Juventus. I would only keep Pogba if Pochettino has told Ed behind the scenes that he is coming next season. But seem as I don't think that is happening then right now best option seems to be rid of Pogba and give Jose more time. I don't think another short term heavy spending quick fix with Zidane is the way to go when it's time to replace Jose.

Pogba played under Allegri and Conte at Juve, who are both not attacking managers, neither is Deschamps.

Truth is Pogba thinks the Premier league is Serie A, and after two years either consciously or
unconsciously, still doodles on the ball.

Out of all the players, Jose has backed Pogba more than anyone else from day one, even at the wrath of pundits and ex players. Jose went as far as changing his prefered system for Pogba.

For Jose to survive the team has to play at a quicker tempo and that stems from midfield and press teams, and the team needs width or players to hug the touchline.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Fergie’s right. Pogbas shite.

Charlton’s right. Jose’s shite.

 

[BlueHaze]

So Pogba will probably end up leaving. Martial wants out too and De Gea doesn't seem interested in renewing. We are also stuck with a manager who is playing Sam Allardyce football with one of the most expensive squads in football. The future is looking really bright.

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

So Pogba will probably end up leaving. Martial wants out too and De Gea doesn't seem interested in renewing. We are also stuck with a manager who is playing Sam Allardyce football with one of the most expensive squads in football. The future is looking really bright.

We "just" need to get Zidane in now, buy a good player or two in January and then get a DoF towards the end of the season.

 

[Rolaholic]

yeah that was just swept under the carpet wasn't it

It really was

It's pretty funny and quite telling how none of the same lot harping on about players respecting the club and no one being above the club seem to acknowledge that shameful 'football heritage' rant press conference where he showed everyone his true colors and true feelings regarding the club.

It's been crickets when it comes to that yet we're now supposed to believe that he has the clubs best interest at heart instead of mainly looking out for his massive ego

Different set of rules for the manager,I suppose they truly believe that he's bigger than the club.

The spin from his loyalists has been impressive,they conjure up a narrative or scapegoat to deflect and repeat and stick by it ad nauseam. Jose being the master manipulator that he is would be proud

A born and raised Scouser and child spitter like Jamie Carragher suddenly becoming a voice of 'sense' and clarity in regards to United is especially rich

He's definitely got United's best interest in mind...

There's a reason most rival fans want Jose to stick around,they care as much about the clubs future as I did about Arsenal when I used to mock Gooners with 'Wenger In' shouts

 

[ash_86]

found it in reddit and quite apt for the current situation

 

[MikeKing]

Mourinho. Im not sure he has ever been given a bigger reason to say feck this I'm out, the only problem is i think he doesn't want to and he has to deal with stuff differently now so not everything falls to pieces. What that tells me is that he cares about the club, and if I'm right we won't have a third year meltdown and that is amazing considering all that is building up to just that. Pogba however has no other relationship with the fans other than to play good football consistently, which is isn't doing and instead when he isn't getting what he wants he ruins everything for everybody else, that tells me he doesn't give a shit about the club. Even if i think Pogba's talent outshines that of my faith in Mourinho atm, I will never cheer on a player i perceive to be acting more important than the manager, and by extension the club.

And no, we don't know anything for sure. But i do know that when something like this happens, the media makes a fuzz and if the player was innocent or it was nothing in it, and the player has no motives he would do the right thing keep his mouth shut, and start listening very polite while focusing on football. Pogba obviously isn't doing that so it makes very much sense to me that he is distracting everybody with his cries for attention to find a reason to move.

I also think about those comments he made. "If i say what i want i will be fined." Almost like a reference to the Martial thing since he is the only one who has been fined, but why all this sudden solidarity with Martial? Ah, thats right, that newfound empathy for someone who wanted to leave but couldn't, it wasn't very easy was it. "feck, what if i can't leave, i'll better ask Raiola what i should do" Raiola: "Throw them cheers around!"

Sick of it.

 

[SambaBoy]

In response to the Fergie quotes, for me it's not certain players affecting the dressing room atmosphere, the performance of the team and the control of the players and staff. It's Mourinho. Pogba has repeatedly come out and said he's unhappy but emphasized that he will always give 100% and tbh it's reflected in his performances. He's trying his best for the team but he might be frustrated to hear the comments of the manager and his actions all the time. His comments after the Wolves game were justified for me, and I seen no problem with them. The argument today was unclear but it seemed Pogba wanted to get on with training and Mourinho was causing an issue.

Pogba is now a player refusing to train/play and dragging his heels to force a move. He's a player who is unhappy with certain aspects of the club's management but one who is performing on the pitch and giving 100%. Mourinho on the other hand, definitely isn't performing on the pitch, is criticizing his players in public and causing what seems general unrest within the squad.

 

[lawliet354]

found it in reddit and quite apt for the current situation

The answer to that quote is just as @Amir said, when you spent hundreds of million to buy players and you can't even compete in the league, you keep playing horrible football, you have no direction for the club future, you cannot say you are bigger than the players

It works that way everywhere. If a manager is successful, he's bigger than the players. If he's a failure, he's not.

Hasn't prevented Real and Barca from becoming dominant forces.

 

[JominiTactician]

found it in reddit and quite apt for the current situation

That's a good quote. I agree with Fergie. I stated this earlier in another thread. You may disagree with Jose's tactics and want him out. Fine. However, a player, no matter how bad it gets, must never undermine the manager. Doing this sets a very dangerous precedent. Just imagine if Mourinho got the sack and we got Zidane. Would Pogba fully back the latter? What if we experienced a string of bad results? Is Pogba going to pout and sulk? Is he going undercut Zidane at any turn? No. I'm sorry. No player is bigger than the club. I have stood always stood by the motto. United must never be held hostage by any player.

 

[ash_86]

The answer to that quote is just as @Amir said, when you spent hundreds of million to buy players and you can't even compete in the league, you keep playing horrible football, you have no direction for the club future, you cannot say you are bigger than the players

I'm not advocating to keep Jose. I'm just advocating to get Pogba out of the club. We cannot have a player calling the shots.

 

[CA_vampire]

found it in reddit and quite apt for the current situation

Yes, all that is true.

"It doesn't matter if the person is the best player in the world."

Of course, Pogba is not that good, not consistent either. But definitely SAF would get rid of him ASAP.

 

[steffyr2]

Wow. All Pogba all the time is boring.

 

[Needham]

A star wants to see himself rise to the top.
A leader wants to see those around him rise to the top.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Yes, i think that Jose thinks long term here. If it was not the case, he would not buy young(ish) defenders. He would not keep Shaw. He would buy proven midfielder, not Fred. And yes, i want him to stay.
But i want also Pogba here and i want attacking football so, to be honest i don't know what to think anymore.

You want stability. I get that. But Mourinho isn't the guy for that. And Fred was hardly a "risk". He is proven. If not, then he wouldn't have been wanted by Pep and he wouldn't be playing for Brazil. As for Shaw, don't even get me started on how he treated him. I know that some tough love is needed sometimes, but we are talking about a kid who almost had his leg chopped in half. What he needed was encouragement, not to be slammed in front of the media. That was absolutely brutal the way he was treated after such a horrible injury. He's only a kid. Let him get his confidence back. Don't beat him down...Mourinho needs to go...

 

[Sayros]

Still trying to figure out where Pogba thinks he's better than he is, or that he's only thinking about himself, or that he said anything that the rest of the team isn't thinking to begin with. Do you honestly think those lads look happy playing this crap football for the past three years with no visible progress in sight? Or to have a coach that constantly blames them or their attitude but as soon as the heat is on him will deflect all responsibilities and bring out his resume and past victories? Just stop acting like these players should be machines and put yourselves in their shoes, who the feck would enjoy working for a coach like that? I think Pogba spoke for more than just himself when he had his 'dig' at Mourinho, and he definitely spoke for a lot of people on this board as well.

 

[VP89]

No please don’t go and so on. Shaw only since the start of the season has looked like a player and he isn’t playing at a higher level than he has played at previously. Lukaku isn’t performing at a higher level he is performing at the level he has previously shown which is a hot and cold striker. Lingard is the only one who you can say has shown improvement. There’s literally no one else

Also we are second not Chelsea.

We are 6 games in for God's sake. Stop moving the goal posts.
If you're saying we haven't progressed over two years then that's outright wrong because our results show we have.

If you're saying we havent progressed this season ift is pre mature because it's only September.

Whichever way you look at it it's flawed.

And no, United last season spent less gross than City and Chelsea on transfers.

Are you serious? He says there aren’t any players who has shown consistent improvement under Mourinho and you reply with this, without realizing you’re pretty much proving his point?

If the squad hasn't improved under Jose we wouldnt have had 18 teams behind us in the league last season. It's really that simple.

 

[Lord Zlatan]

In response to the Fergie quotes, for me it's not certain players affecting the dressing room atmosphere, the performance of the team and the control of the players and staff. It's Mourinho. Pogba has repeatedly come out and said he's unhappy but emphasized that he will always give 100% and tbh it's reflected in his performances. He's trying his best for the team but he might be frustrated to hear the comments of the manager and his actions all the time. His comments after the Wolves game were justified for me, and I seen no problem with them. The argument today was unclear but it seemed Pogba wanted to get on with training and Mourinho was causing an issue.

Pogba is now a player refusing to train/play and dragging his heels to force a move. He's a player who is unhappy with certain aspects of the club's management but one who is performing on the pitch and giving 100%. Mourinho on the other hand, definitely isn't performing on the pitch, is criticizing his players in public and causing what seems general unrest within the squad.

Sorry mate, I was at the game on Saturday, he certainly isnt performing on the pitch and most definitely not giving 100%

 

[FootyGirl88]

Even if Pogba goes I'd rather let the next manager make that decision. We can't trust someone that sold KDB, Salah and then turned people against Hazard.

 

[Amir]

I'm not advocating to keep Jose. I'm just advocating to get Pogba out of the club. We cannot have a player calling the shots.

If he wants Mourinho out, he's doing a better job and is showing more understanding than Woodward. Pogba for CEO!