Moyes So Far!

[Eyepopper]

We have an abundance of attacking quality - Moyes has just persisted with the same underperforming wingers. With Valencia I can understand it but Young not so much - time for others to be given a go.

Our wingers may as well not have played last season, and they haven't started this one much better.

I agree on Young, squad player at best. But aside from him we're not exactly looking at a group that will go down in history in the great tradition of wingers at Utd.

I don't see it as Moyes persisting with poor players really, injuries and internationals have limited his options, it isn't Moyes fault that our best back up is Ashley Young.

Our wings couldn't be any less productive if we just stuck Adnan and Zaha out there now.

 

[Mickeza]

We all know the answer to that question and he's just had a hip operation.

I have no agenda here, other than to try and sprinkle a bit of realism. I don't agree that our squad is in fantastic shape and I would question the agenda of anyone who would try and claim this is the case. It's been obvious for years now that Fergie had not yet put the finishing touches on his latest great team. I always assumed this would be by signing one or two really great central midfielders (and/or Cleverley/Anderson having a leap in their development in the same way that - for example - Ramsey is currently doing for Arsenal) and will admit that I didn't predict us to end up looking iffy out wide too. Either way, I think you're being disingenuous here and I'm as unsure of your motives as you are of mine.

I'm not saying our squad is poor by any means and I'm still confident we can put in a reasonable challenge for the title. I can, however, see our title being derailed and I also predict a really tight campaign, with 5 teams clustered near the top. It wouldn't take much for us to drop out of the CL places IMO. A long-term injury to Carrick for example, would leave us in really serious trouble.

For me, that wouldn't be a sackable offence, providing I can see signs of Moyes putting his own stamp on a really good team and going deep in at least one or two cup competitions. Winning any silverware would secure Moyes his job for next season, providing our league campaign isn't a total disaster. Finishing fifth or lower and doing poorly in all the cups would be a different story. Although he might still hold on to his job if all the owners have any intention of backing up their talk about continuity and long-term projects. Not sure I'd agree with that myself but it's certainly not inconceivable.

I could totally understand your point if Fergie had left Moyes this squad two seasons from now with no new additions, but in the short term when we still have the experience and quality of Vidic, RVP, Rio, Evra and Carrick, along with an ever improving Rafael, Smalling, Jones, De Gea and Welbeck plus a rejuvenated Rooney, we're looking good. If Moyes can also get Nani and/or Valencia back to their best then we may just have a small chance in Europe too, but as it stands everything is in place for Moyes, if he doesn't succeed this season he can't blame the hand he was dealt. Having said that, I do agree about him not necessarily deserving to get sacked if we finished outside the top four, it all depends on the circumstances, but the harsh reality is I think he'd be sacked if we finished outside the top four even if he won the FA cup, no CL revenue would be a total disaster for the Glaziers. Anyway, that isn't going to happen, I'm confident that Moyes is a very good manager and he's going to prove it this season.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Our wingers may as well not have played last season, and they haven't started this one much better.

I agree on Young, squad player at best. But aside from him we're not exactly looking at a group that will go down in history in the great tradition of wingers at Utd.

I don't see it as Moyes persisting with poor players really, injuries and internationals have limited his options, it isn't Moyes fault that our best back up is Ashley Young.

Our wings couldn't be any less productive if we just stuck Adnan and Zaha out there now.

Maybe. Bit of a gamble though. I'd be happy taking that risk against PL whipping boys. Not so much against really top opposition.

 

[Ronnie O'Sullivan]

We'll either see the best of Moyes from now on or could be a downright spiral

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I could totally understand your point if Fergie had left Moyes this squad two seasons from now with no new additions, but in the short term when we still have the experience and quality of Vidic, RVP, Rio, Evra and Carrick, along with an ever improving Rafael, Smalling, Jones, De Gea and Welbeck plus a rejuvenated Rooney, we're looking good. If Moyes can also get Nani and/or Valencia back to their best then we may just have a small chance in Europe too, but as it stands everything is in place for Moyes, if he doesn't succeed this season he can't blame the hand he was dealt. Having said that, I do agree about him not necessarily deserving to get sacked if we finished outside the top four, it all depends on the circumstances, but the harsh reality is I think he'd be sacked if we finished outside the top four even if he won the FA cup, no CL revenue would be a total disaster for the Glaziers. Anyway, that isn't going to happen, I'm confident that Moyes is a very good manager and he's going to prove it this season.

It's a bit of a moveable feast, for me. Sometimes I think the timing is perfect, with the trajectory of improving youngsters precisely matching the decline of the older players currently playing in their position. Sometimes I think that the timing could be out, by anything up to a year or two. It's the latter scenario which makes me think this squad could have fundamental flaws, which will be tricky to manage.

To be honest, I seem change my mind about this on a weekly basis. I was feeling wildly optimistic when we destroyed Bayer but I'm staring at a glass half full ever since Sunday. Football, eh? Bloody hell.

 

[Mickeza]

Well you missed out Milner off the second eleven, Scott Sinclair also but that's not really an issue. I'm not sure that second eleven you display would "comfortably beat theirs" at all. Navas, Kolarov and Negredo were all terrific on Sunday, and in Jovetic they have a super player ready to make an impression. Its not as clear cut as you make it at all. Besides I wouldn't look at it in terms of first and second eleven, merely the overall quality of the players in the squad, of which City's are better, not by miles but definitely better. Its not about numbers its quality, and they have more quality than us.

Anyway this isn't thread relevant but I'm not sure Chapman is that far off in the article to be honest. A lot of the players in this squad have a lot to prove, or have stepped off the gas significantly. On paper it looks good but form would suggest otherwise.

Milner. I knew I'd forgotten someone

Anyway, we aren't going to agree. Our side is better in central midfield and defensively, and with Kagawa being played in his right position, it also looks rather good going forward too.

 

[Mickeza]

It's a bit of a moveable feast, for me. Sometimes I think the timing is perfect, with the trajectory of improving youngsters precisely matching the decline of the older players currently playing in their position. Sometimes I think that the timing could be out, by anything up to a year or two. It's the latter scenario which makes me think this squad could have fundamental flaws, which will be tricky to manage.

To be honest, I seem change my mind about this on a weekly basis. I was feeling wildly optimistic when we destroyed Bayer but I'm staring at a glass half full ever since Sunday. Football, eh? Bloody hell.

We're fine if Moyes starts rotating the squad, which I'm sure he'll start doing now the more difficult fixtures are out of the way. However, I, like you, may also have a totally different opinion next weekend

 

[Comsmit]

Milner. I knew I'd forgotten someone

Anyway, we aren't going to agree. Our side is better in central midfield and defensively, and with Kagawa being played in his right position, it also looks rather good going forward too.

City bossed our two best midfielders on Sunday, absolutely steamrollered them. Their midfield is clearly superior even discounting the fact Silva wasn't involved. Navas offered more in an afternoon than our wingers have done in the season so far. Kagawa has a lot to prove and it is obviously going to have to be on the left of our midfield. Defensively City were better than us last season and have conceded less than us this season so far.

I just feel you are making big assumptions based on a fair bit of conjecture, that's why I don't agree with you.

 

[SirFergie]

Maybe. Bit of a gamble though. I'd be happy taking that risk against PL whipping boys. Not so much against really top opposition.

Maybe not Januzaj but I honestly don't see the problem with giving Zaha a try. He couldn't possibly be any worse than what Valencia produced for the most of last season.

 

[Brophs]

We'll either see the best of Moyes from now on or could be a downright spiral

Yeah, I think there are other options.

 

[JustAFan]

Apart from, you know, us?

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/1992-1993/table/1992-08-30

I know it was 20 years ago, just saying that it has happened in the past.

My mistake, thank you.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

How many losses do you think we can afford this season?

Used to think you couldn't afford to lose more than five games in order to win the league, but I think this season could be different.

Either way, Moyes is in desperate need of successive wins in the league. And a run of good form.

 

[Mickeza]

City bossed our two best midfielders on Sunday, absolutely steamrollered them. Their midfield is clearly superior even discounting the fact Silva wasn't involved. Navas offered more in an afternoon than our wingers have done in the season so far. Kagawa has a lot to prove and it is obviously going to have to be on the left of our midfield. Defensively City were better than us last season and have conceded less than us this season so far.

I just feel you are making big assumptions based on a fair bit of conjecture, that's why I don't agree with you.

I was on about the second teams. Anyway, I know you like being negative, but try and keep things in perspective, it was one game in which we played very badly without RVP, Nani and Kagawa, three players many feel should be starting. City aren't world beaters despite your claim that they're better defensively, have a clearly superior midfield, wingers who do more in one afternoon than ours do all season and a squad packed with top quality. Listening to you, losing 4-1 seems like a good result.

P.S. For the record, Welbeck scored two goals against Swansea playing wide and Valencia scored one and assisted one against Leverkusen.

 

[Sam]

Regarding Moyes' comments today, he's made a few of these statements about getting to know the players, and understanding them....I wonder if that's a slightly more delicate way of him telling a few....'I'm gonna see how you react, and if you don't buck up your ideas, you're out the door in the Summer'.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maybe not Januzaj but I honestly don't see the problem with giving Zaha a try. He couldn't possibly be any worse than what Valencia produced for the most of last season.

Oh he most definitely could.

For all of his brainfarts at the weekend, the one thing Valencia usually provides is a solid, defensive shift. That's the last thing I'd say about Zaha, based on the little I've seen so far. If he's losing possession in the opposition half as frequently as he did during his last (poor) performance for United and failing to track runners then he could be a far, far worse option than Valencia ever was last season.

 

[Comsmit]

I was on about the second teams. Anyway, I know you like being negative, but try and keep things in perspective, it was one game in which we played very badly without RVP, Nani and Kagawa, three players many feel should be starting. City aren't world beaters despite your claim that they're better defensively, have a clearly superior midfield, wingers who do more in one afternoon than ours do all season and a squad packed with top quality. Listening to you, losing 4-1 seems like a good result.

P.S. For the record, Welbeck scored two goals against Swansea playing wide and Valencia scored one and assisted one against Leverkusen.

I'm not being negative, just realistic. Perspective? That performance on Sunday was not just symptomatic of an off day, it was coming and I'm surprised more people didn't see it. We didn't have Van Persie, but we had Rooney in form. They didn't have Silva but it didn't matter. You are making excuses for United being played off the park, Van Persie would not have made a difference to the outcome, United were beaten before they stepped onto the pitch. Nani and Kagawa were on the bench so its not like they weren't available. I never said City were world beaters, but their players performed to their potential and won every battle there was to be won.

The end scoreline probably should have been more, they took their foot off the gas while throttling us. They actually went easy on us....shiver. Its up to the manager and players to now show everyone how good they are, if they are actually good enough in the first place.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Regarding Moyes' comments today, he's made a few of these statements about getting to know the players, and understanding them....I wonder if that's a slightly more delicate way of him telling a few....'I'm gonna see how you react, and if you don't buck up your ideas, you're out the door in the Summer'.

If he could get replacements sorted some might bite the dust in January.

 

[pocco]

Regarding Moyes' comments today, he's made a few of these statements about getting to know the players, and understanding them....I wonder if that's a slightly more delicate way of him telling a few....'I'm gonna see how you react, and if you don't buck up your ideas, you're out the door in the Summer'.

That was my initial impression also.

' I think people with real football knowledge will know there are probably some changes to be made. It is not going to be made in one fell swoop. It is going to be done in time.'

He knows full well what the script is. I think we may see a few heads roll by the end of the season.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Aye. Kagawa, Januzai, Chicharito out. Ashley Young made captain and given the No 7 shirt. He then reveals the true intention behind buying Fellaini: Using him as a No 10 and realizing Fergie's old dream of Rooney as a central midfielder.

 

[Commadus]

Moyes should have kept the core of Fergies coaching staff intact. They know the players better than Moyes and its easier for continuity especially when you already have a winning formula. Its a sign of weakness that Moyes surrounds himself with his loyal staff from Everton. They are not going to challenge his views.

 

[Sam]

That was my initial impression also.



He knows full well what the script is. I think we may see a few heads roll by the end of the season.

I hope so. I think there's some real deadwood in this squad that have been living off past reputation for far too long. I hope some genuine quality is brought in over the Summer.

 

[Raees]

Moyes should have kept the core of Fergies coaching staff intact. They know the players better than Moyes and its easier for continuity especially when you already have a winning formula. Its a sign of weakness that Moyes surrounds himself with his loyal staff from Everton. They are not going to challenge his views.

I disagree, the rot was apparent even under the old regime, we'd been complaining about our midfield and flanks even last season and how we don't play great football especially against teams better than us in possession. Keeping the old guard there would've made it even harder to get rid of the deadwood around the place.. he'd have been even more indecisive than he is at the moment.

Like this, it is all based on his judgement and if he's the man for the job, by the end of the season - heads will roll and we'll be better for it.

 

[Raees]

I, among others, wondered why the hell we were going in for the likes of Hazard and Moura.

Turns out the club see things we obviously can't.

To be fair we dodged a bullet with Moura, he's a more fancy version of Valencia.

 

[Commadus]

I disagree, the rot was apparent even under the old regime, we'd been complaining about our midfield and flanks even last season and how we don't play great football especially against teams better than us in possession. Keeping the old guard there would've made it even harder to get rid of the deadwood around the place.. he'd have been even more indecisive than he is at the moment.

Like this, it is all based on his judgement and if he's the man for the job, by the end of the season - heads will roll and we'll be better for it.

But he hasn't shown anything regarding a playing philosophy at Everton, its like he wants to implant Everton style onto us. Its very frustrating, Moyes hasn't shown anything in the 14 games he has been charge that he will transform our play for the better.

How many games does it take to assess a player? Evans seems to be the forgotten man.

 

[Raees]

But he hasn't shown anything regarding a playing philosophy at Everton, its like he wants to implant Everton style onto us. Its very frustrating, Moyes hasn't shown anything in the 14 games he has been charge that he will transform our play for the better.

It's questionable if we ourselves already possessed a cohesive playing philosophy during the past few years, its almost been hit to the wings or RVP and hope.. I don't look at our games and feel that there is any intricate patterns to our buildup play even before Moyes arrived, we have to have faith he does have a vision because if he doesn't - he's not going to last very long.

When you're manager of United, you need to have a vision of the game which rivals Guardiola, Mourinho et al.. you need an ethos for how the games played, lets hope that he's always had a dream for how the games played but felt for pragmatic reasons it wasn't possible to put it into action. Didn't Preston play a nice brand of football under him?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But he hasn't shown anything regarding a playing philosophy at Everton, its like he wants to implant Everton style onto us. Its very frustrating, Moyes hasn't shown anything in the 14 games he has been charge that he will transform our play for the better.

How many games does it take to assess a player? Evans seems to be the forgotten man.

Good god. Did that first sentence make any more sense to you when you wrote it than it does to the rest of us reading it?

I've no idea whether you think he does or does not want us to play in the same way he had Everton playing. Nor can I work out if you think that's a good thing. Either way, do you think it might take more than 5 competitive games to change the playing style of a team that's had the same manager for the last two and a half decades?

 

[Dreaded]

But he hasn't shown anything regarding a playing philosophy at Everton, its like he wants to implant Everton style onto us. Its very frustrating, Moyes hasn't shown anything in the 14 games he has been charge that he will transform our play for the better.

How many games does it take to assess a player? Evans seems to be the forgotten man.

Atleast 20 excluding meaningless preseason friendlies

 

[Feed Me]

United looked nothing of the sort then, I am aware SAF had drubbings and off days, but under Fergie you could almost be certain you would win playing poorly, even going 2-0 down you could rest assured it would most likely end up 3-2. United looked a completely different animal against Palace. I don't think you should sack Moyes regardless of where he finishes, SAF himself chose him for longevity, I dont see why finishing 4th or 5th will destroy that for one season. We finished 6th two seasons ago and bounced back.

You've just completely disregarded a virtually identical performance against QPR a couple of seasons back that took place under SAF. What's the difference?

Also, it's all well and good saying we'd win 3-2 from two down against an also ran, but it's harder to achieve against a top side - such come backs rarely happen for any teams against the very best sides.

It's too early in Moyes' reign to speculate whether we've lost the ability to win when playing badly - he's been in situ for 7 games! Mind you, I guess that is a lifetime in terms of a Chelsea manager.

 

[Commadus]

It's questionable if we ourselves already possessed a cohesive playing philosophy during the past few years, its almost been hit to the wings or RVP and hope.. I don't look at our games and feel that there is any intricate patterns to our buildup play even before Moyes arrived, we have to have faith he does have a vision because if he doesn't - he's not going to last very long.

When you're manager of United, you need to have a vision of the game which rivals Guardiola, Mourinho et al.. you need an ethos for how the games played, lets hope that he's always had a dream for how the games played but felt for pragmatic reasons it wasn't possible to put it into action. Didn't Preston play a nice brand of football under him?

Dunno about Preston.

If he has a vision, philosophy then has he articulated that in public? If not then all we have to go on is how he has set his teams up and his record against the top sides does speak volumes.

Fergie was a gambler, a striker, his view was we can outscore the opposition, it was positive first. Moyes has shown he is more tentative, negative to the point where he sets the tram.up to negate the opposition more than actually setting us up that works to our advantage, that's definitely the mentality of a manager happy to scrape a result rather than create a result through a positive team selection.

 

[Raees]

Dunno about Preston.

If he has a vision, philosophy then has he articulated that in public? If not then all we have to go on is how he has set his teams up and his record against the top sides does speak volumes.

Fergie was a gambler, a striker, his view was we can outscore the opposition, it was positive first. Moyes has shown he is more tentative, negative to the point where he sets the tram.up to negate the opposition more than actually setting us up that works to our advantage, that's definitely the mentality of a manager happy to scrape a result rather than create a result through a positive team selection.

A) is it sensible to boast about a playing philosophy vision when you're taking over from one of the greatest managers of all time, it just gives opponents an insight into your playing strategy and gives the media more ammunition to shoot you with should results not go your way - better to have one and build towards it with your own staff and inform the players that you want to keep long term of it B) he's definitely not a gambler but you can't afford to be manager of United and set us up to play like Everton or like England. He did it on Sunday, I'm hopeful he's not committed to that style in the long term, it might even have been a way of testing out which players he definitely doesn't see in the future of the club and might be the final nail in the coffin of the 4-4-2 formation under his reign. The job will force him to change and think big, he's either going to fly or sink fast... you can't be the manager of a top club and expect to coast, its life or death at this level - he'll have to adapt and I'm hoping he will adapt and develop as a manager very quickly.

 

[Ash_G]

I really hope Moyes doesn't overplay the "needing to see them" card. Pellegrini and Mourinho don't seem to have that issue, Mourinho seemingly wrote off Mata before he started. There really shouldn't be anyone Moyes doesn't know quite well and he's had plenty of time to look in to players he wants to know more about now.

 

[.Rossi]

I really hope Moyes doesn't overplay the "needing to see them" card. Pellegrini and Mourinho don't seem to have that issue, Mourinho seemingly wrote off Mata before he started. There really shouldn't be anyone Moyes doesn't know quite well and he's had plenty of time to look in to players he wants to know more about now.

This

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I really hope Moyes doesn't overplay the "needing to see them" card. Pellegrini and Mourinho don't seem to have that issue, Mourinho seemingly wrote off Mata before he started. There really shouldn't be anyone Moyes doesn't know quite well and he's had plenty of time to look in to players he wants to know more about now.

Mourinho's decision to write off Chelsea's best player of the last two seasons isn't really a ringing endorsement of making fixed opinions about players before you've ever worked with them.

 

[.Rossi]

Mourinho's decision to write off Chelsea's best player of the last two seasons isn't really a ringing endorsement of making fixed opinions about players before you've ever worked with them.

True enough..However, Moyes has not only been with the majority of these players since July, but has also watched them, played against and scouted them since God only knows. I don't really buy it as an excuse. Maybe it's a subtle message to a few players?!

 

[Andrew~]

They need to stop letting Moyes do interviews - he's positively shit at them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

True enough..However, Moyes has not only been with the majority of these players since July, but has also watched them, played against and scouted them since God only knows. I don't really buy it as an excuse. Maybe it's a subtle message to a few players?!

Someone else suggested that earlier on. Sounds plausible to me.

 

[Ash_G]

Mourinho's decision to write off Chelsea's best player of the last two seasons isn't really a ringing endorsement of making fixed opinions about players before you've ever worked with them.

True but it was more a point that he clearly feels he knows enough about him to think he won't fit in his style of play, which he may well not, even if he's probably a player you adapt for. But I still think that they've seemed comfortable enough to actually make decisions about players where as Moyes does seem to want a fair bit of time to judge people and it's not like he's really made the most of opportunities to sub on players either. Hopefully it's more concerns over fitness though. Have to see how it goes now that most players seem fit.

 

[Ash_G]

True enough..However, Moyes has not only been with the majority of these players since July, but has also watched them, played against and scouted them since God only knows. I don't really buy it as an excuse. Maybe it's a subtle message to a few players?!

Could be though then whats the message to Valencia/Young?

 

[devilish]

In my opinion the team needs a strong kick on the backside. There's an aura of complacency around. I can understand Moyes for not wanting to rock the boat too much, especially after this Summer transfer fiasco. However certain immediate changes can be done without dipping into the transfer market. For example top quality players with a point to prove like Hernandez and Kagawa can be utilized more. Evans, Smalling and Jones should play more and Moyes should make it pretty clear to them that there's one first team place for the taking and its up to them to make every single chance count. Meanwhile young talent such as Januzaj, Jesse and Zaha can easily replace players likeGiggs and Young and will bring hunger and enthusiasm back into the game. Some may say that it may cost us the title. Maybe they have a point, I mean, you can't win anything with kids right?

 

[SirFergie]

Oh he most definitely could.

For all of his brainfarts at the weekend, the one thing Valencia usually provides is a solid, defensive shift. That's the last thing I'd say about Zaha, based on the little I've seen so far. If he's losing possession in the opposition half as frequently as he did during his last (poor) performance for United and failing to track runners then he could be a far, far worse option than Valencia ever was last season.

Isn't focussing on the negative side of his game well..negative? Why not focus on what he can do going forward for us? That was his first competitive game for us, hardly something to be critical over. I think you'd agree that Valencia was absolutely shite in providing an outlet that could be trusted to support the strikers with any real ammunition last season while also not providing hardly any sort of goal threat for us.

Having said that, I would agree that he does work hard and provides protection (except on Sunday which I was surprised as he's usually very good at tracking runners and stopping them) for our right full-back. However, it's not the main facet of his play and primarily not what he's in the side for. He should be there to provide and assist and he didn't do that last season which was my point. Zaha should be at least given a chance even if it's from the bench.