It's Liverpool, it's a match he absolutely cannot afford to lose according to the media, who are starting to sharpen their knives properly now. This is what he means: I'm not going to stand here and tell you how preoccupied I am with an upcoming fixture in a Mickey Mouse cup. He has obviously thought about the match, about all upcoming fixtures. Give him some credit - he wasn't born yesterday.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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It isn't the best in the league in terms of quality though, and that is what matters. We have a lot of depth but we don't have the quality City possess as a squad. Sunday confirmed this to me.
Put RVP, Nani and Kagawa in our starting 11 and I think our team is as good as theirs, give or take.
Perhaps. Their squad is definitely stronger though.
We don't have the best first eleven, no, but squads win championships. Mentality is also pretty important, and it's okay Yaya and company turning it on against Manchester United at home, but where were they against Cardiff and Stoke?
Even the most fervent defender of United under Fergie would have admitted that major surgery to our central midfield could not be deferred much longer. If Valencia fails to find his mojo, Young keeps being Young, Kagawa doesn't adapt and Nani doesn't improve on last season then there's huge doubts over every area of the midfield that Moyes just inherited. Which is a real issue compared to the improvements our rivals have made in their squads. Most of this was not predictable, to be fair but it's disingenuous to pretend that Fergie handed over a well-oiled machine, firing on all cylinders and ready to dominate for years to come.
Our squad has a lot of players at extremes of age for their respective positions. How many of our best XI would be in their mid to late twenties? At their prime and only going to improve in the years ahead? What I think Fergie did do, however, is hand over a squad packed full potential. Moyes is in the fortunate position of having up and coming stars waiting to replace almost all of the players heading into a decline. This does mean a potential period of transition ahead, though, irrespective of the manager. Winning the league at a canter didn't disguise that. At least it shouldn't.
And he would be right. There isn't much wrong with it in terms of challenging for the league. One point, though: I don't understand exactly what we were up to in that transfer window but I doubt Moyes regarded Fellaini (or Baines) as a top priority. I rather think the first name on his list was someone else. Fellaini and Baines were his best players at Everton - and he thought they would add something to our team as well. Not a crazy point of view. Several people have pointed out how unwise it is to recruit a couple of Everton players as your only signings when you will inevitably be accused of trying to transform United into a mid-table club and all the rest of it. It's an obvious point. And I think Moyes was fully aware that it wouldn't be wise in any way to go solely for Fellaini and Baines.
So, he didn't. He went for some kind of marquee signing, some kind of statement of intent - call it what you will. And he wanted that player to be a midfielder, as this was the most obvious position to strengthen. But as we all know we didn't manage to land this player. He ended up with Fellaini, who he wanted all along as one of a few summer signings, not as the top one - and here we are. Not ideal, and someone needs to look very closely at how we handled our business. It's clear enough that we simply fecked up on several points here. But the Fellaini affair shouldn't be used as a stick to beat Moyes with before we know what actually transpired. I maintain that Fellaini was not Moyes' top priority.
Not sure on this, I think its very close.
The problem on Sunday is some our most talented players weren't playing. If we ever see the Kagawa-Rooney-Nani trio behind Van Persie then that team is every bit as good as City's best 11. Probably better IMO.
No we don't have the best squad as a whole, that's what I was referring too. You stated the squad was comfortably the best in terms of depth, but depth is not as important as quality in my view. I'm not talking about the first eleven, I'm talking about the squad.
City's squad is better and stronger than United's, the first eleven can be debated but to be honest on Sunday's evidence they are probably better there also.
Yaya was off-beat against Cardiff, Kompany didn't even play.....and it showed. In fact they had to play Javi Garcia there, no wonder they conceded three.
We do but for various reasons, they couldnt start.
If City had started Milner and another Milner'esque player on the flanks instead of Nasri and Navas, you'd be saying thing about them.
He was Moyes' top priority, he wanted three players, one of which was Fellaini, you've admitted that yourself. If we signed Fabregas he would still have signed Fellaini. Anyway, the point is David Moyes wouldn't have been trying to sign a 28 year old left back for 16m+ if the squad was in the state that article and Pogue are suggesting it's in, Baines would have been a luxury signing this summer. In the medium term we're going to be dealing with RVP, Rio, Vidic, Evra and Carrick coming to an end, and we're probably going to need to sign some quality on the wings, but at the moment this squad is in fantastic shape, and any manager would be fortunate to be taking it over. Using the squad to try and justify us possibly finishing outside the top four this season is idiotic, and if Moyes is the manager we all hope he is, we should be mounting a strong defence of our title.
To be fair, you can see where Pogue is coming from. Not a single component in our midfield is what you can call top class, i.e. we possess a player at RW, CM through to LW and say we hands down possess the best player in that position in the league - not one, which is worrying.
What I would argue is that in Nani and Janzuaj, we could potentially possess the two best wingers .. Nani doesn't face much competition for that RW spot across Europe I'd argue let alone the premiership, but at LW... Janzuaj would have to prove he's talented as the likes of Hazard etc to prove he's one of the elite wingers in the Prem. But those two aside, I struggle to see greatness amongst our ranks and we you look at the sheer depth of talent at clubs like Bayern/Barca... it makes you rather tearful. Someone like Pedro/Sanchez would be our best wingers.
What I would argue is that in Nani and Janzuaj, we could potentially possess the two best wingers .. Nani doesn't face much competition for that RW spot across Europe I'd argue let alone the premiership, but at LW... Janzuaj would have to prove he's talented as the likes of Hazard etc to prove he's one of the elite wingers in the Prem. But those two aside, I struggle to see greatness amongst our ranks and we you look at the sheer depth of talent at clubs like Bayern/Barca... it makes you rather tearful. Someone like Pedro/Sanchez would be our best wingers.
Again, I'm on about the squad, not the first eleven.
First eleven is a more subjective debate as it's a matter of opinion who the best eleven actually comprises of.....if you know what I mean? Assessing the squad as a whole is easier to be objective about.
So Kompany doesn't play, they concede three because their backup centre back is actually a midfielder, but they still have a better squad than us? Right. And yeah, Yaya being off beat sort of proves my point about mentality.
What I mean is that a fully fit front 6 of
----RVP---
Kagawa-Rooney-Nani
---Fellaini--Carrick--
is as good as anything City can put up.
3 of those werent playing for various reasons. Take 3 out from City and it'l be the same for them.
Well, I guess it depends on how you define "top priority", then. I think his first order of business was to land a bigger name than Fellaini, to put it brutally. Fellaini was coming regardless, as you rightly say. It took on an air of desperation at the closing of the window because we insisted on this double deal involving Baines until the very end. The latter I don't understand, I'll gladly admit that. It seems like a foolish approach to me.
Baines in himself...well, it's not the most obvious of signings, not given Baines' age and Evra's presence. I don't fully understand Moyes in that regard.
Nastasic was also out so both their first choice central defenders were absent. Since that game they have acquired Demechelis as a further option. It was a tongue-in-cheek comment about Garcia really, but he isn't a central defender. When we have played Carrick there he has struggled, so that is a good reference point.
Yes they still have a better squad than us....assessing their central defensive options is simply part of the comparison and perhaps the one area where United may have the edge. Although judging by the form of our first-choice pair and the still to be proven qualities of Smalling and Jones it is debatable. City after all conceded the least goals in the Premier League last season.
I've not even debated your point about mentality!
And actually I don't agree that you can make such basic conclusions just from a player having an off-day.Yeh ok but I've already stated, I'm talking about the "squad" as a whole not the first eleven.
I dont agree with that.
Both forward lines have great depth and are equal in quality but If you take just the strikers, our 2 are better than theirs.
In defence, we have better depth but the starting 4 are equally good.
In CM, its tough to comment as Fellaini has just joined making it tough to comment but its fair to say that if Toure's on form, he almost singlehandedly is better than anything we can put in the middle 2. So i'd say they have the better CM.
Wingers, again, Its tough to comment as Navas has just come in and it remains to be seen how good he turns out to be for them but i'd say overall both are equal in quality.
We also have the better Goalie.
Never mind the medium term, in the immediate term we're dealing with replacing the gap left by Scholes hanging up his boots, Fletcher possibly (probably?) never regaining his best form and possibly (probably?) cutting our losses on the player who was signed to be the solution to our central midfield woes, Anderson. You can add to that the question marks that hang over Cleverley (personally, I think Cleverley will come good but will continue to be inconsistent for another couple of years). Plus Ryan Giggs was often picked in central midfield by Fergie. There'll have been a reason for this and he's 40 years old now! How the feck can anyone give the impression that Moyes inherited a squad without major flaws when he has ONE central midfielder of proven top quality is a mystery to me.
That's without getting into any detail about our options in the wide midfield areas, which is another area of midfield that is potentially in need of an overhaul. Not to mention that our first choice central defensive pairing have both had a hellish time with injuries in the recent past and are at an age where these things can be difficult to put behind you. Nor do we have an obvious replacement for our left back, who is also getting on a bit and whose game relies massively on athleticism, stamina and recovery pace.
But yeah, our squad is in "fantastic shape". Or something.
Okay, let's do it:
First Eleven
De Gea
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Carrick Cleverley
Valencia Rooney Nani
RVP
Vs.
Hart
Zabaleta Kompany Nastasic Clichy
Yaya Fernandinho
Silva Aguero Nasri
Dzeko
Second Eleven
Lindegaard
Jones Rio Smalling Fabio
Fellaini Anderson
Young Kagawa Welbeck
Hernandez
Vs.
Pantillimon
Richards Demechelis Lescott Kolorov
Garcia Rodwell
Navas Jovetic ?????
Negredo
I'd back our second eleven to beat their second eleven comfortably, and like I said, when I did ours I left out Giggs, Buttner, Januzaj and Zaha. It is possible I've forgotten about some City players though... Anyway, the whole point is our squad is more than adequate to compete for the title, let alone finish top four, how anyone can argue against that I don't know, although Ian Herbert certainly tried his best.
That's such a negative view on things, it's actually remarkable, and I bet you wouldn't be saying this nonsense if SAF was still in charge. Replace Paul Scholes? The player who made a grand total of 16 league appearances last season on route to our 11 point title win? Replace Darren Fletcher? The player who has made 12 appearances in the last three years? Yes, they are both vital squad members aren't they? How is David Moyes going to get us top four without them. If this squad had such "major flaws" as you put it, how did we win the title last season? How did we manage to get into a position to lose it on goal difference the season before? And that was without Robin Van Persie, Shinji Kagawa and Nemanja Vidic, who was out for the season. It was also without the player Moyes has spent £27.5m on in an effort to rectify our central midfield issues, if Fellaini fails will that be Sir Alex's fault too? Did he put a gun to Moyes' head and tell him to sign him?
Ferdinand hasn't had injury problems for two seasons, Vidic has been fit for close to a year and has stated that he is now over his. We also have Evans, Smalling and Jones waiting in reserves for them, five good options at centre back, what a crime Fergie has committed by leaving Moyes in such a state. We have two backup options to Evra, who hasn't been injured for about five years and shows no sign of decline in the short term, yes we'll need to replace him soon, but Moyes has scouts doesn't he? Or did they all retire too? Oh no, maybe he's at a club that won't spend money so he'll be forced to look at the free transfer market. Oops, no I forgot, he's at one of the richest clubs on the planet.
And now the wide options, Valencia, Nani, Young, Zaha, Kagawa, Welbeck and Januzaj. Short on quality? Most definitely if he continues ignoring Nani and Kagawa. Awful options? Not at all, certainly capable of challenging for a title, I'm certain they are because a few of them have won titles before playing on the wing.
Why are you painting such a negative slant on things? What's your agenda here? Preparing for Moyes to fail? Justifying it? Why do you think he's going to fail? Why is finishing outside the top four in any way acceptable for this squad?
Alot of ifs and buts in your analysis of the midfield - I think you give an overly negative slant on things and I dont agree with it. Even if Young and Valencia arent delivering then we have several other options, Moyes just needs to start using them. And that actually is his main issue, he was used to a small squad with not many options at Everton and all of a sudden he has a huge range of decisions to make on a weekly basis.
You have a point about young/old players but no one is claiming that "Fergie handed over a well-oiled machine, firing on all cylinders and ready to dominate for years to come" - however this squad won the league and is stronger now with Fellaini and Zaha added plus various young players a year more experienced. Clearly the main thing that makes us weaker is that Fergie has gone so I dont expect instant silverware, but like I said CL qualification must be the minimum expectation and really Moyes should aiming higher than that with this squad.
We all know the answer to that question and he's just had a hip operation.
I have no agenda here, other than to try and sprinkle a bit of realism. I don't agree that our squad is in fantastic shape and I would question the agenda of anyone who would try and claim this is the case. It's been obvious for years now that Fergie had not yet put the finishing touches on his latest great team. I always assumed this would be by signing one or two really great central midfielders (and/or Cleverley/Anderson having a leap in their development in the same way that - for example - Ramsey is currently doing for Arsenal) and will admit that I didn't predict us to end up looking iffy out wide too. Either way, I think you're being disingenuous here and I'm as unsure of your motives as you are of mine.
I'm not saying our squad is poor by any means and I'm still confident we can put in a reasonable challenge for the title. I can, however, see our title being derailed and I also predict a really tight campaign, with 5 teams clustered near the top. It wouldn't take much for us to drop out of the CL places IMO. A long-term injury to Carrick for example, would leave us in really serious trouble.
For me, that wouldn't be a sackable offence, providing I can see signs of Moyes putting his own stamp on a really good team and going deep in at least one or two cup competitions. Winning any silverware would secure Moyes his job for next season, providing our league campaign isn't a total disaster. Finishing fifth or lower and doing poorly in all the cups would be a different story. Although he might still hold on to his job if all the owners have any intention of backing up their talk about continuity and long-term projects. Not sure I'd agree with that myself but it's certainly not inconceivable.
It's mad that we're lacking quality on the wings. It seemed at one point a few years ago that we only signed wingers.
Well two years ago most people on here though we had the best set of wingers in the country, and we still have those wingers!
To be fair 2 years ago Guardiola called Valencia the best winger in Europe.
That was bollocks though, purely because he was one of our most dangerous players in the lead up to the CL final. There's no way he believed that, or anyone really.
He was also then dogshite in the final.
Well you missed out Milner off the second eleven, Scott Sinclair also but that's not really an issue. I'm not sure that second eleven you display would "comfortably beat theirs" at all. Navas, Kolarov and Negredo were all terrific on Sunday, and in Jovetic they have a super player ready to make an impression. Its not as clear cut as you make it at all. Besides I wouldn't look at it in terms of first and second eleven, merely the overall quality of the players in the squad, of which City's are better, not by miles but definitely better. Its not about numbers its quality, and they have more quality than us.
Anyway this isn't thread relevant but I'm not sure Chapman is that far off in the article to be honest. A lot of the players in this squad have a lot to prove, or have stepped off the gas significantly. On paper it looks good but form would suggest otherwise.
I, among others, wondered why the hell we were going in for the likes of Hazard and Moura.
Turns out the club see things we obviously can't.
Yup. Hence the Baines/Coentrao stuff can only mean poor Paddy Evra is going to hit the wall at some point this season or next.
Well, used to be able to, at least.
Our squad like many has areas of strength and weakness.
But at United do we indulge players for far too long in the hope they will come good? Or is Moyes more ruthless than Fergie?
But at United do we indulge players for far too long in the hope they will come good? Or is Moyes more ruthless than Fergie?
No way... we get our info from the best sources.... people at the club just hang round the place wearing football boots drinking coffee and telling mad stories of wacky encounters with Paulo Di Canio.
Moyes was used to a small squad at Everton so there was a distinct lack of rotation whereas United players under Fergie are used to rotation. I can't believe that Moyes has played Vidic and Rio for 6 games. Is he setting us up for injuries later in the season?
Rotation helped keep the players fresh over a long season.
Rotation helped keep the players fresh over a long season.
7 pts out of 5, it seems no club has ever won the title after such a start,so not great. His picks of line ups seem a bit off to me, some of the players he is not using, he needs to step it up. Tough part of the schedule behind us but we dropped pts in 3 out of the 5 games, that can not continue.
I miss Mike Phelan.
We have an abundance of attacking quality - Moyes has just persisted with the same underperforming wingers. With Valencia I can understand it but Young not so much - time for others to be given a go.
Apart from, you know, us?
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/1992-1993/table/1992-08-30
I know it was 20 years ago, just saying that it has happened in the past.
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